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View Full Version : VIN fraud? need advice ASAP!



Ihatetowait
09-23-2007, 11:32 PM
Long story, but I bought a new car and this is the jist:

I was given a VIN number starting with 1F1 from the guy at the dealer originally, carfaxed it, it was clean...

I found out the day of purchase the vin was wrong and it was JF1 (made in japan, not made in USA). That was cool, so today the check engine light came on, and I'm pissed...

So I ran the new VIN (JF1) and it comes up that the car was from quebec, which sucks, cars from quebec are usually crap... The inspection on the car went over well, the car is in great shape other then some rust in usual spots like just on the seat bolts and some random parts in the engine. Overall, it's very very clean underneath cept a few spots.

So heres the thing, I'm pissed the check engine light (CEL) came on, and I'm equally as pissed I got the wrong VIN from the guy prior to purchase.



Question: what can I do other then talk to him and tell him WTF?

I basically got the right vin at the time of purchase, when I pretty much already had the cheque on his desk.

I paid good money for a local car, thats clean.... and now i just feel ripped off...

Destinova403
09-23-2007, 11:52 PM
did he give you the original VIN in writing or just like over the phone or somthing unofficial... because there probably isnt anything you could do. especially since you got the proper vin before you technically purchased the car.

Ihatetowait
09-23-2007, 11:53 PM
I have the wrong VIN written down on the original bill of sale.

I had talked him down, so he wrote a new bill of sale.

So in essence, I have on paper that he had the wrong VIN.

kaput
09-24-2007, 05:37 AM
.

A790
09-24-2007, 07:44 AM
Court, judge, you win, return car, get money, be happy, love life, get laid :)

Weapon_R
09-24-2007, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by A790
Court, judge, you win, return car, get money, be happy, love life, get laid :)

LOL good luck with that.

Buyer beware.

A790
09-24-2007, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by Weapon_R


LOL good luck with that.

Buyer beware.

Misrepresentation of the vehicle on the original bill of sale. Very illegal- this guy has a bloody paper trail. No judge around would force him to keep a vehicle that was falsely represented.

I'd call the guy, tell him you know whats up, and give him an opportunity to return your cash and you'll return the car. Otherwise, go legal on his ass.

EDIT: He even bought it from a dealer. Call AMVIC and explain what went down and ask what your options are.

Thaco
09-24-2007, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by A790


Misrepresentation of the vehicle on the original bill of sale. Very illegal- this guy has a bloody paper trail. No judge around would force him to keep a vehicle that was falsely represented.

I'd call the guy, tell him you know whats up, and give him an opportunity to return your cash and you'll return the car. Otherwise, go legal on his ass.

EDIT: He even bought it from a dealer. Call AMVIC and explain what went down and ask what your options are.

but he was given the new bill of sale, with the new vin, and obviously had an opportunity to tell the dealer to give him a few days to check it out on carfax or whetever, but instead he just handed over the cheque, sounds liek a lack of research on his part. To me listing the wrong vin would throw big red flags for me and i'd have shit verified before handing over any sort of payment.

Ihatetowait
09-24-2007, 12:16 PM
Essencially what happened is that I was in his office, I gave him the cheque and I was calling my insurance to change it over. They faxed insurance info to his office.

He had the cheque in his hand before I knew the VIN was different, the new bill of sale has 1 written over with a fat J.

I'm on the AMVIC website now, I'm going to see what I can do.

Despite the fact the car is from quebec, and the CEL, the car is still in good shape, with the exception of a little rust on some weird places like stated.

I'm just pissed that I was given the wrong VIN, and the fact the car was registered in quebec under a new owner, then sold a month later in alberta is very fishy.

Ihatetowait
09-24-2007, 12:20 PM
Update:

Called AMVIC and they had said if I cannot resolve this at a first contact level with the dealership, I can submit the complaint in writing and take legal action.

Supa Dexta
09-24-2007, 12:27 PM
it may not be a new "owner" in quebec, it may just show up that it was sold there, with plans of shipping it here to sell.. there will be some surface rust on some stuff, but if the car isn't very old, it won't be very bad, and won't get any worse.. I've had my nissan for 4 yrs or so now from quebec and it hasnt changed, its been a good car... The only thing would be the cel being on, I'd want to know why..

theken
09-24-2007, 12:41 PM
like a complaint will do much, amvic :thumbsdow

canuckcarguy
09-24-2007, 01:48 PM
What's the big deal? He made a typo, and then he corrected it. You had every opportunity to verify the VIN - you could have just looked at the vehicle. Your topic says "fraud". Where's the fraud? It's a mistake. You could have done a new VIN check, you could have taken your cheque back and walked out, refused delivery of the deal and opted out.

It's not like he sold you a stolen car, or you have evidence of odometer tampering, or anything like that.

The first bill of sale had a mistake on the VIN. It also had a higher price. What, now are you guilty of fraud for paying the lower price on the corrected bill of sale? Give me a break. And the first carfax you ran showed the vehicle as clean - did it give any particulars? I somehow doubt that you managed to get a report on a car with only that one letter being different. You likely got a report that didn't show any activity at all, not one that confirmed you were buying a local car.

Plus, you admit the car's in decent shape. I don't know, it seems to me you should just get that small item fixed and move on. It's a used car.

ShOwOfF
09-24-2007, 03:21 PM
aren't VIN numbers all exclusive to each other, such that one type would not return a result in a VIN check?

If this is true, then having the first letter/number wrong wouldn't return you a result...or am i crazy?

dr_jared88
09-24-2007, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by ShOwOfF
aren't VIN numbers all exclusive to each other, such that one type would not return a result in a VIN check?

If this is true, then having the first letter/number wrong wouldn't return you a result...or am i crazy?

I was thinking the exact same thing. And also you saw the vehicle in person did you not? You should have recorded the vin and did the check off of your information. Not theirs.

dr_jared88
09-24-2007, 03:53 PM
ya 1f1 is ford, jf1 is suburu. when you ran the report im pretty sure you should have noticed it was for the wrong car

http://www.vinquery.com/faq_all_about_vin_read_manufacturer.aspx

dericer
09-24-2007, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by Ihatetowait


I basically got the right vin at the time of purchase, when I pretty much already had the cheque on his desk.




Becareful how you word things. Your original comment states that the dealer didn't have the cheque when you learned of the new VIN. One slip up with amvic, or the dealer and you won't have a leg to stand on in court.

TomcoPDR
09-24-2007, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by A790
get laid :) :clap:

GTS Jeff
09-25-2007, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by dr_jared88
ya 1f1 is ford, jf1 is suburu. when you ran the report im pretty sure you should have noticed it was for the wrong car

http://www.vinquery.com/faq_all_about_vin_read_manufacturer.aspx Nice. The OP's bullshit just got called out!

Ihatetowait
09-25-2007, 12:13 AM
Originally posted by canuckcarguy
What's the big deal? He made a typo, and then he corrected it. You had every opportunity to verify the VIN - you could have just looked at the vehicle. Your topic says "fraud". Where's the fraud? It's a mistake. You could have done a new VIN check, you could have taken your cheque back and walked out, refused delivery of the deal and opted out.

It's not like he sold you a stolen car, or you have evidence of odometer tampering, or anything like that.

The first bill of sale had a mistake on the VIN. It also had a higher price. What, now are you guilty of fraud for paying the lower price on the corrected bill of sale? Give me a break. And the first carfax you ran showed the vehicle as clean - did it give any particulars? I somehow doubt that you managed to get a report on a car with only that one letter being different. You likely got a report that didn't show any activity at all, not one that confirmed you were buying a local car.

Plus, you admit the car's in decent shape. I don't know, it seems to me you should just get that small item fixed and move on. It's a used car.

The VIN did show up as "for sale at 110,000 KM in calgary alberta"

and "dealer inventory at 74,300 KM"

More then one person screwed up the vin, it came up as a 2004 impreza, which is weird.

My bullshit didnt get called out, if youd like, I can show you both carfax reports? It was on the website as 1f1 as well, which is where carfax picked up one of the "dealer inventory" things.

In essence, I talked to him, and he explained that the vehicle was bought after original lease in quebec to be wholesaled, shipped out and sold. Check engine light was a fuel system pressure difference, which was basically the fact theydidnt screw on the gas cap properly when they filled it up, I cleared it, it came on again, then I just replaced the gas cap and it's fine.

After talking to him and expressing my concern about the fact I paid for a local car, which is what the VIN checked out as orignally. He said what he would do is offer me the 700 dollar value warranty for free, which gives me 1 year of protection top to bottom. It all worked out well, despite the fact I got a car that has usual rust in small spots, which i'm sure I could clean off and touch up.

I would really think carfax would have some means to detect this, the vehicle came up "2004 subaru WRX for sale at _____ Km", the one thing I didnt notice is that the title of the vehicle on carfax wasnt filled in, just that it was that car, for sale, at this time, at this place. As listed by the dealers website.

BlackArcher101
09-25-2007, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by Ihatetowait

I would really think carfax would have some means to detect this, the vehicle came up "2004 subaru WRX for sale at _____ Km", the one thing I didnt notice is that the title of the vehicle on carfax wasnt filled in, just that it was that car, for sale, at this time, at this place. As listed by the dealers website.

And that's why you don't use carfax for canadian vehicles. Next time use carproof. Carfax is only as good as the info that is supplied to it, which is nearly nil. According to carfax I still don't own my vehicle which I've had for 2 years.

Ihatetowait
09-25-2007, 01:33 AM
Originally posted by BlackArcher101
And that's why you don't use carfax for canadian vehicles.

Lesson learned.

All turned out well enough, still cheezed they had it posted under wrong VIN though.

Still got a steal on the car.

Team_Mclaren
09-25-2007, 01:42 AM
what is the vin? I tried puting in 1f1 instead of jf1 for the vin of a subaru but it wont come up...

Ihatetowait
09-25-2007, 02:25 AM
It's all figured out, but, this is the quote directly from carfax.


A CARFAX Vehicle History Report is based only on information supplied to CARFAX. CARFAX checked over 5 billion vehicle history events and found 1 record(s) for this vehicle (1F1GD29654G502804).

Date: Mileage: Source: Comments:
09/14/2007 73,153 Dealer Inventory Vehicle offered for sale
Odometer reported as 117,729 kilometers


Then the real one:


Date: Mileage: Source: Comments:
07/11/2003 Quebec
Motor Vehicle Dept.
Sainte-Anne-des-Monts, QC Registration issued or renewed
First owner reported
Registered as
personal vehicle
Registered as lease vehicle

08/16/2007 Quebec
Motor Vehicle Dept. Registration issued or renewed
New owner reported

09/25/2007 Subaru of America No recalls open for repair


So you can see, being that I never used carfax before, the first one is easily mistakeable being that it listed all of the areas of concern to be clean, I thought the area i quoted was just the most recent check-in to the carfax database.

The only concern I still have is that the seat belt bolts/surrounding area have rust, and around the trunk/gas cap release as well, I'm sure if I take back the carpet a bit I could clean it off no problem.

Edit: just ran the VIN on old vehicle of mine, it didn't show me getting rear ended, and claiming repair, it didnt show an accident previous owner had, and after 3 years of owning that vehicle it didnt show that it's even in my name.

Carfax :thumbsdow

Ihatetowait
09-25-2007, 02:53 AM
So after doing some reading on carfax, I decided my 22,500 invesment is worth 39 bucks to carproof it.

It shows it being registered in alberta (me), being registered in quebec (then) and that the vehicle is clean, but for alberta and quebec is says

"Registered in this jurisdiction as Normal in this jurisdiction.
Caution, our Cross Canada and U.S. Verification of this VIN indicates that it has additional registration information on file in more then one jurisdiction.

-----"

Which I guess means it was registered in 2 provinces.


Also, it shows the dealership was in fact telling the truth and it was bought from an auction, and essencially driven from the truck to the dealership.

"7/11/2003 QC Motor Vehicle Dept. CANADIAN RENEWAL DMV Record Adjustment
5/6/2006 ST EMILE QC Motor Vehicle Dept. CANADIAN RENEWAL DMV Record Adjustment
8/9/2007 CANADA Auto Auction REPORTED AT AUTO AUCTION Odometer Reading 117644 K
8/16/2007 QC Motor Vehicle Dept. CANADIAN RENEWAL DMV Record Adjustment
"

I guess all is well, 39 dollars well spent for the peace of mind.

Annoyingrob
09-25-2007, 02:34 PM
Just a little info on the VIN numbers.

There IS a checksum digit built into them to prevent a single digit mis-types (like swapping 1F1 for JF1), however, I believe places like Carfax don't check this. They just compare the VIN you gave them with a database.

All this means is that someone submitted the detais to carfax, and mistyped the VIN when they did. It's likely that the dealership submitted current info to carfax, mistyped the VIN when they did, and a new entry was created in the carfax database. This is why there is no make or model associated with the vehicle, only the most recent odometer information the dealership updated it with (carfax was essentially updating a new record).


I'm not trying to criticise your purchase at all, as it worked out well in the end, but it's a good idea for consumers to compare the VIN, and data plate on the vehicle with that on the bill of sale before purchase. I know I've purchased vehicles that weren't as advertised, and a simple check could have alerted me. I remember years ago, registries would actually make you go to yoru car, and confirm the VIN before they register the car. They don't usually do that any more as they want to get you in and out as soon as possible.

Ihatetowait
09-25-2007, 07:31 PM
Yeah, I've learned to check everything for next time.

This time, I'm glad I got lucky and didnt get a lemon. Carproof is my next choice next time, they showed every little bit of information on the car, even that it was an auction car that was wholesaled.

I should have checked the VIN, I was mislead by the fact it said 1f1 on the website AND on the bill of sale, its easy to beilive its correct when that is the case.

BlackArcher101
09-26-2007, 01:45 AM
Thanks for posting the differences between the carfax and carproof report. This should almost be a sticky for those that keep requesting carfax reports on the forum.

Ihatetowait
09-26-2007, 01:47 AM
Well, I figured it was worth the money on a big purchase, it's not just some 4,000 dollar car.

I noticed vast differences, carproof just has everything, even caught me registering it just a few days ago.