pgmfi.org & Hondata butt heads

[frozenrice]

For those of you who care and are familiar with pgmfi.org, it looks like Hondata is suing the forum or the former owner of the forum.:thumbsdow


plea for help (http://forum.pgmfi.org/viewtopic.php?t=11755)

details of situation (http://forum.pgmfi.org/viewtopic.php?p=95637)

[Weapon_R]

Are you on that forum or have a way of contacting the guy being sued?

[A790]

Lame. This alone would keep me from using Hondata.

[frozenrice]

I'm not actively involved. I'm just getting familiar with it. I actually just heard this from another forum I'm on (G2IC.com).

[speedracer]

Such a crappy company to deal with.

If Hondata is so smart.. Watch Honda take legal actions for reverse engineering....

[A790]

I think it's lame that they're suing... what are they going to gain besides a tarnished reputation?

[nikka]

hondata seems like a big bag of douche company

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Let me get this straight, a company that makes money reverse-engineering Honda hardware/software is suing a guy for reverse-engineering theirs? If that's right, the irony is staggering.

[speedracer]

Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat
Let me get this straight, a company that makes money reverse-engineering Honda hardware/software is suing a guy for reverse-engineering theirs? If that's right, the irony is staggering.


2006:
May 13: A forum user from Australia posts the "k pro downloader" software. Software is hosted on http://forum.pgmfi.org (located in Canada, run by Nick Mailloux/Synoptic) as an attachment to a forum post. Software (allegedly - I do not have it so I do not know this) downloads the contents of the 66Q592 processor present in K series ECUs using the Hondata K-pro board. Presumably, this processor will contain OEM Honda code immediately after the K pro is installed prior to any changes being made with the software. After tuning, it would presumably contain a mixture of OEM Honda code and Honda code modified by Hondata. Presumably, the possibility of access to Hondata's code was the basis for later IP violation claims. I say "presumably" because I do not have enough information to be able to make any definitive statements.

:thumbsdow

[Mibz]

This is absolutely silly. I just read all the letters back and forth between the legal teams (I couldn't understand the summons :P) and its really a sad situation. I don't see how Hondata could win this battle though.

[SilverGS]

Wow they wanted moderator access and so many other demands from one site? So what are they going to want the same demands and privileges at every car forum that ever mentions their name?

[frozenrice]

It'll be interesting to see what happens. I certainly hope the site doesn't close down because of it for whatever reason. There's lots of good information on there.

From what I've read so far, it almost looks like Hondata is consipring to shut them down in order to boost sales of their own product. At least that's my conspiracy theory.

[Mibz]

Originally posted by frozenrice
It'll be interesting to see what happens. I certainly hope the site doesn't close down because of it for whatever reason. There's lots of good information on there.

From what I've read so far, it almost looks like Hondata is consipring to shut them down in order to boost sales of their own product. At least that's my conspiracy theory. If Mobil 1 shut down Beyond I highly doubt their sales would increase. I'd love to know which suit and tie drew a line between those two.

[hellraiser456]

huh....strange company indeed. I believe the tuner world is all about rep. its everything a company has. and most of that rep is passed around by word (aka forums). Usually small companies will give forum members benefits.

I always thought that hondata was some sort of niffty piggy back. i didn't realize they modified the honda ecus as well.

What exactly ARE they suing for?....what is this file that aussie downloaded? from what i see it was software to further modify the the hondata? im confused because to me hondata is just as guilty as the kid downloading it(or at least from what i understand). I also fail to see the motive as to why hondata is getting its panties in a knot. Especially since it seems like a system that is MENT to be modified. Especially if the modify they internals of a honda ecu.

Please though..correct me if i am wrong.

I am planning a honda build for school(supra is too expensive to run during school)...and it will require tuning. I was thinking a simple piggy back or something like hondata as i do it it is a tuning device. I think i will go with mega squirt in the end and tinker with that. (off topic i know).

[rage2]

Originally posted by speedracer
If Hondata is so smart.. Watch Honda take legal actions for reverse engineering....
AFAIK, Hondata has an agreement with Honda and worked with them directly on their K-Pro software. I could be wrong on this one though... reverse engineering the K-Pro software would take a hell of a lot longer than it took for them to come out with K-Pro.


Originally posted by A790
I think it's lame that they're suing... what are they going to gain besides a tarnished reputation?
Market share. PGMFI is the home of many homebrew solutions. With software to download the code off the K-series ECU, it's opening the door to reverse engineering efforts which would cut into the K series market, which is currently monopolized by Hondata. With PGMFI gone, it would be much harder for the guys to collaborate on reverse engineering. Of course, the freeware guys could always go to another site or start a new site, but if you've seen how often they fight with one another as is already, it'd be easier said than done.


Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat
Let me get this straight, a company that makes money reverse-engineering Honda hardware/software is suing a guy for reverse-engineering theirs? If that's right, the irony is staggering.
Haha ya, it's very ironic. It's purely a bullying effort.


Originally posted by Mibz
This is absolutely silly. I just read all the letters back and forth between the legal teams (I couldn't understand the summons :P) and its really a sad situation. I don't see how Hondata could win this battle though.
They will if the PGMFI guys can't afford it.


Originally posted by SilverGS
Wow they wanted moderator access and so many other demands from one site? So what are they going to want the same demands and privileges at every car forum that ever mentions their name?
They won't, since it won't affect their business at all. Unless it's a site where people are gathering to start work on reverse engineering the K-series ECU.


Originally posted by hellraiser456
I always thought that hondata was some sort of niffty piggy back. i didn't realize they modified the honda ecus as well.
Hondata replaces the stock Honda code on the Honda ECU's with their own, which allows adjustments to fuel, timining, and variable valve timing maps (on the K-series). Not piggyback. It effectively adds standalone capabilities on the stock honda ECU's.


Originally posted by hellraiser456
What exactly ARE they suing for?....what is this file that aussie downloaded? from what i see it was software to further modify the the hondata? im confused because to me hondata is just as guilty as the kid downloading it(or at least from what i understand). I also fail to see the motive as to why hondata is getting its panties in a knot. Especially since it seems like a system that is MENT to be modified. Especially if the modify they internals of a honda ecu.
In the old days, to dump the stock code on the Honda OBD0 and OBD1 ECU's, it was a matter of removing a surface mount chip and reading the contents off it. To replace the code, solder on a spare socket and jump a pin (designed by Honda to allow updating code for recalls, for instance), pop a EEPROM chip with code there, and it'll run off it.

With the OBD2 K series ECUs, it's all done with flash memory on the CPU itself. Since nobody knew how to get the code on and off there, this program is basically the key to the floodgates. Hondata knew how to download and upload to the K-series ECU from their agreement with Honda, and someone probably sniffed the protocol between the K-series software and Honda ECU and figured out how to download and upload the software. It's not to modify any code on the ECU's, but it can now dump stock K-series code as well as Hondata updated code. With this code in hand, people can start to disassemble everything and start adding functionality to the K-series ECU's like the old OBD0 and OBD1 code (Crome, Uberdata, Neptune, etc). They could even disassemble the Hondata code to figure out what and how they did it and write a competing freeware solution. The worst case scenario for Hondata (and easiest solution for the coders) would be if someone figured out where and how Hondata stores all the maps, how to generate the checksums, and write their own software using Hondata's base ECU code. You see why Hondata's freaking out now? Something like that would take someone like me about a month to do. Wouldn't even need to disassemble anything!

The most fucked up part with this whole ordeal is the history behind everything. Back in the original days of PGMFI, when I was doing Honda OBD0 disassembly and reprogramming, the founder of Hondata was an active member there, working on OBD0 code. He eventually jumped on the OBD1 bandwagon, and commercialized his work. That's how Hondata started :).

[racin_jayson]

I always figured it was a matter of time before someone on that forum stepped on the wrong toes and a war broke out.

[Perceptionist]

Thanks for the info Rage, I've read about the lawsuit on a few other forums and this is the best explanation yet. Just out of curiousity, which side of the fence are you on with this ordeal?

[rage2]

PGMFI of course. I've already made a donation.

As a hobbyist reverse engineer, forums like PGMFI are a valuable resource for collaborating with others. There's no way 1 person can do a full reverse engineering project on their own in their free time.

I don't condone Hondata for going the commercial route, I mean if you can make money for doing a project, more power to you. I am, however, surprised that they are using bullying tactics to try and knock down the guys that got them started.

[legendboy]

Hondata did the exact same thing to the owner of j&s safeguard years and years ago. He posted some of hondatas disasembled code and a how to bypass a uv erase security on eeproms on honda-tech.

[hellraiser456]

that makes a ton more sense rage...thank you

sounds like this is going to be an interesting fight. in my eyes though...no matter the outcome...hondata just lost its monopoly. even if they manage to shut down the site...im sure there will be other places to get the info/code to do it yourself. kinda like the war on downloading music or drugs...but this is just the start of it.

[pgmatt]

Wow Rage really covered it there.Im sure Doug at Hondata felt his cash cow the Kpro was potentially at risk and over reacted.It is sad he is suing a guy that didnt hack any of his product and has long been a advocate of not hacking others work.I hope Dave gets enough funds raised to fight it and win as his hundreds of hours of work for the DIY community should not be rewarded with this.I sent $50 as i owe alot to pgmfi and will def never touch Hondata products again.:thumbsdow

[doublepostwhore]

fuck hondata to the deepest of places.

20$ sent off.

I urge you to sticky this thread, and bulletin this on the front page... the more people that know about this... the more money can go to his defence. that blows.

[racin_jayson]

"You agree not to post any copyrighted, patented or otherwise controlled code or devices. You agree not to download any copyrighted or patented material. You agree to not post information directly a imed at circumventing protection mechanisms of commercially marketed products. You agree to hold this site and its maintainers totally free from any and all liabilities resulting from the use or misuse of this site and the informaion within."


Would'nt this statement that is clearly posted on pgmfi release them of liability? I'm no lawyer but...

I'm not going to jump on the "fuck hondata" bandwagon here and go smash my s300 ecu with a hammer, because they do make an excellent product, but at the same time I don't understand what they expect to gain from suing a freeware based website. Really a crappy situation considering the instigating factor in this whole conflict is long gone.

[Weapon_R]

PGMFI has nothing to worry about. There is a longstanding established precedent that releases a forum owner from any liability for the conduct of the forum members.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Weapon_R
PGMFI has nothing to worry about. There is a longstanding established precedent that releases a forum owner from any liability for the conduct of the forum members.
It's part of the DMCA that forum owners are not liable. But you still need a lawyer to tell that to the judge in court lol.

[Weapon_R]

Originally posted by rage2

It's part of the DMCA that forum owners are not liable. But you still need a lawyer to tell that to the judge in court lol.

haha yep.

If anyone has this guy's email, I have collected tons of case law and relevant information for him.

[pgmatt]

[email protected] Im sure he would love to see whatever you have collected in regards to the matter.:thumbsup: