what is beams?

[avow]

So I have heard and seen pics of these engines and was just curious as to what they really are. Are they 3rd party tuned or whats the deal with them?
http://usera.imagecave.com/TakeBackTheTouge/forums/l_b079b353264a188e6aaa69196231960f.jpg

[heavyD]

I haven't dug too deep into the subject but I believe they are tuned by Beams for Toyota in 1998 Celica's and some MR2's. Essentially Toyota's attempt at a Honta B-series type N/A engine. Some people actually prefer them to the 3SGTE in an MR2. If you are looking for something different may be something to look into but I believe you need a specific engine harness and ECU and they aren't easy to find or cheap. I like the red and the fancy manifold but if it has 4-cylinders it has to be turbo for me personally.

Anyone in Calgary have one?

[A790]

Originally posted by heavyD
I like the red and the fancy manifold but if it has 4-cylinders it has to be turbo for me personally.
Bingo bango right there.

[avow]

so they arnt turboed? na around 200hpish? thanks for the info

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by heavyD
I haven't dug too deep into the subject but I believe they are tuned by Beams for Toyota in 1998 Celica's and some MR2's. Essentially Toyota's attempt at a Honta B-series type N/A engine. Some people actually prefer them to the 3SGTE in an MR2. If you are looking for something different may be something to look into but I believe you need a specific engine harness and ECU and they aren't easy to find or cheap. I like the red and the fancy manifold but if it has 4-cylinders it has to be turbo for me personally.

Anyone in Calgary have one?

Wow, totally wrong. BEAMS stands for Breakthrough Engine with Advanced Mechanism System and it's a fancy acronym with no real meaning. The BEAMS 3SGE has vvti on both the intake and exhaust cams, but really, BEAMS itself is some some random marketing bullshit Toyota came up with.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff


Wow, totally wrong. BEAMS stands for Breakthrough Engine with Advanced Mechanism System and it's a fancy acronym with no real meaning. The BEAMS 3SGE has vvti on both the intake and exhaust cams, but really, BEAMS itself is some some random marketing bullshit Toyota came up with.

So what was I wrong about?:confused:

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by heavyD


So what was I wrong about?:confused: You're referring to Beams like it's some separate tuning entity - it's not. You're referring to it as Toyota's attempt at a B-series - it's not. It's just an acronym with no meaning whatsoever.

As for Toyota's attempt at a B-series, take a look at at the blacktop 4AG. The BEAMS shit comes a decade after

[heavyD]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff
You're referring to Beams like it's some separate tuning entity - it's not. You're referring to it as Toyota's attempt at a B-series - it's not. It's just an acronym with no meaning whatsoever.

As for Toyota's attempt at a B-series, take a look at at the blacktop 4AG. The BEAMS shit comes a decade after

1) First of all if you read I never claimed to be an expert on the subject.
2) Second of all Beams is essentially some special engine tuning. I don't claim that I knew if it was toyota, or yamaha, or whomever.
3) Valve timing in the intake & exhaust, high strung, high horsepower N/A 4-cylinder.....sounds like B-series engine to me. Plus the comparison to the B-series was taken from an actual MR2 owner that has done the swap and explaining how it drives compared to the 3SGTE.
4) I also claimed that you need the special harness and ecu which is correct.

See Jeff my post while not 100% accurate was good information for the original poster, yours essentially explained what acronym 'Beams' means. Good job.:thumbsup:

[EK 2.0]

can't we all just get along??

[01RedDX]

.

[avow]

our forum has been invaded by honda fanboys who wont except the fact that toyota can tune an engine better then theirs but doesnt bother becaue they actually know how to stick turbos on them out of the factory... :eek:

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by 01RedDX
Exactly, it's obvious that Jeff is right, so let's drop it..

Yeah...I dunno why HeavyD is getting uppity.

Dude it's ok to be wrong! Don't get defensive!


Originally posted by avow
our forum has been invaded by honda fanboys who wont except the fact that toyota can tune an engine better then theirs but doesnt bother becaue they actually know how to stick turbos on them out of the factory... :eek:

And I hope you're not referring to me, cuz I'm pretty sure this Honda fanboy was the only one with a solid answer to your Toyota question. Not to mention I've owned a Toyota 10x as long as I've owned a Honda. :nut:

Now about the B-series argument....Toyota came out with the 4AG in 1984, which was a pretty crazy engine for its time, but in 1989 Honda released the B16, which with its 100hp/l output as well as its streetable lowend power was almost unbeatable. Toyota's eventual response was the blingbling blacktop, which needed ITBs, a pentavalve head, ridiculously high compression, and vvt to make the same top end power as a B16, but with no low end power whatsoever. The Beams 3S-GE was a late 90s engine...guess what high revving 2.0L engine Honda came out with a couple years after that? I'm not saying which company can build a better engine, that's a worthless argument, I'm just saying the Beams 3s-ge is about 10 years late to be battling the B series.

[A790]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff
Now about the B-series argument....Toyota came out with the 4AG in 1984, which was a pretty crazy engine for its time, but in 1989 Honda released the B16, which with its 100hp/l output as well as its streetable lowend power was almost unbeatable. Toyota's eventual response was the blingbling blacktop, which needed ITBs, a pentavalve head, ridiculously high compression, and vvt to make the same top end power as a B16, but with no low end power whatsoever. The Beams 3S-GE was a late 90s engine...guess what high revving 2.0L engine Honda came out with a couple years after that? I'm not saying which company can build a better engine, that's a worthless argument, I'm just saying the Beams 3s-ge is about 10 years late to be battling the B series.
I'm going to ague the streetability of the B16's lowend power. My '99 SiR was absolutely gutless down low- it needed to be revved to 5,400 rpm before it had any amount of oomph at all.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff


Yeah...I dunno why HeavyD is getting uppity.

Dude it's ok to be wrong! Don't get defensive!



And I hope you're not referring to me, cuz I'm pretty sure this Honda fanboy was the only one with a solid answer to your Toyota question. Not to mention I've owned a Toyota 10x as long as I've owned a Honda. :nut:

Now about the B-series argument....Toyota came out with the 4AG in 1984, which was a pretty crazy engine for its time, but in 1989 Honda released the B16, which with its 100hp/l output as well as its streetable lowend power was almost unbeatable. Toyota's eventual response was the blingbling blacktop, which needed ITBs, a pentavalve head, ridiculously high compression, and vvt to make the same top end power as a B16, but with no low end power whatsoever. The Beams 3S-GE was a late 90s engine...guess what high revving 2.0L engine Honda came out with a couple years after that? I'm not saying which company can build a better engine, that's a worthless argument, I'm just saying the Beams 3s-ge is about 10 years late to be battling the B series.

It's the way you worded that I was 'totally wrong'. The guy asked what the deal was with the Beams engine. I told him it was a high strung N/A engine tuned like the Honda B series which is essentially what it is. It wasn't meant to spark a debate about the B-series vs Toyota. Besides the 4AG had no variable valve timing and had nothing to do with the VTEC craze of the 90's. The 2ZZ-GE came out after the beams and was basically Toyota's final attempt at out-VTECing Honda.

If this is an argument about who builds the better 4-cylinder engine well Honda wins that hands down so no argument there from me.

I can accept that I was wrong about who Beams was or what it meant but jeesh Jeff can you make your dislike for me any more transparent?:dunno:

[dj_Twin_turbo]

Wow, partially wrong.

Not all BEAMS 3SGEs had vvt-i on both cams. The first generation BEAMS 3SGE (referred to the red and grey tops) used variable valve timing on only one cam. The second generation (blacktop), which was never sold as an engine option for the MR2, had dual vvt-i. It's been said that this engine is not an easy swap to the MR2's transverse platform, possibly because of the wider head, but perhaps because it was only offered in a longitudinal setup.

If you're going to walk the fine line of being rude, at least be totally right.


Originally posted by GTS Jeff


Wow, totally wrong. BEAMS stands for Breakthrough Engine with Advanced Mechanism System and it's a fancy acronym with no real meaning. The BEAMS 3SGE has vvti on both the intake and exhaust cams, but really, BEAMS itself is some some random marketing bullshit Toyota came up with.

[zipdoa]

:goflames:

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by A790

I'm going to ague the streetability of the B16's lowend power. My '99 SiR was absolutely gutless down low- it needed to be revved to 5,400 rpm before it had any amount of oomph at all.

Name any other 1.6L with appreciably more low end power. For an old assed 1.6L with 160hp, its low end was pretty damn amazing. Try driving a car with a blacktop 20V and you'll see that without VTEC, you pretty much have to trash low end power to achieve good top end.

Originally posted by heavyD


It's the way you worded that I was 'totally wrong'. The guy asked what the deal was with the Beams engine. I told him it was a high strung N/A engine tuned like the Honda B series which is essentially what it is. It wasn't meant to spark a debate about the B-series vs Toyota. Besides the 4AG had no variable valve timing and had nothing to do with the VTEC craze of the 90's. The 2ZZ-GE came out after the beams and was basically Toyota's final attempt at out-VTECing Honda.

If this is an argument about who builds the better 4-cylinder engine well Honda wins that hands down so no argument there from me.

I can accept that I was wrong about who Beams was or what it meant but jeesh Jeff can you make your dislike for me any more transparent?:dunno:

The 4AG has VVT and its last iteration was definitely a response to Honda's popular B16s. You say that the Beams 3S-GE and the 2ZZ was Toyota's response to the B-series, I say no, because by the late 90s, we all know Toyota didn't give two shits about performance, and those engines were vestiges of Toyota's past sportiness.

You're biased and sometimes don't know what you're talking about...but no I don't dislike you.


Originally posted by dj_Twin_turbo
Wow, partially wrong.

Not all BEAMS 3SGEs had vvt-i on both cams. The first generation BEAMS 3SGE (referred to the red and grey tops) used variable valve timing on only one cam. The second generation (blacktop), which was never sold as an engine option for the MR2, had dual vvt-i. It's been said that this engine is not an easy swap to the MR2's transverse platform, possibly because of the wider head, but perhaps because it was only offered in a longitudinal setup.

If you're going to walk the fine line of being rude, at least be totally right.

Anyone who I've ever known with a Beams 3S-GE swap goes for the dual VVT version. :dunno:

[dj_Twin_turbo]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff
Anyone who I've ever known with a Beams 3S-GE swap goes for the dual VVT version. :dunno:

Great, but this is the MR2 section of Beyond, and the car above is an MR2 with a single vvt-i BEAMS. If you're going to be rude, at least don't be misinformed, that's all I'm saying.

[Redlyne_mr2]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff

Anyone who I've ever known with a Beams 3S-GE swap goes for the dual VVT version. :dunno:
Thats cause youre a dorikaze member.. thats all the corolla guys use. But yah as DJTT said.. single VVT for the mr2.

[avow]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff

And I hope you're not referring to me, cuz I'm pretty sure this Honda fanboy was the only one with a solid answer to your Toyota question. Not to mention I've owned a Toyota 10x as long as I've owned a Honda. :nut:
lol im just giving you a hard time jeff, you know know im greatful for any info.:love:


Originally posted by dj_Twin_turbo


Great, but this is the MR2 section of beyond, and the car above is an MR2 with a single vvt-i BEAMS. If you're going to be rude, at least don't be misinformed, that's all I'm saying.

i have heard of alot of people putting the celica beams (the one with the dual vvt in it i would assume) in their mr2s and just using a different ecu and harness and what not. Mainly because the mr2 version is so hard to find. Is that even possible?

[dj_Twin_turbo]

Originally posted by avow
i have heard of alot of people putting the celica beams (the one with the dual vvt in it i would assume) in their mr2s and just using a different ecu and harness and what not. Mainly because the mr2 version is so hard to find. Is that even possible?

Yep, the Celica Redtop is essentially the same as the one for the MR2. save the front/mid engine differences. Similarly, the Greytop is also basically the same according to most available information. Only the tuning for the ECU was slightly different, as well as the Greytop appears to be only offered with automatic transmissions, from what I can tell. Either way, they've both been put into MR2s. I had a Greytop that I sold last year to a guy who had planned on installing it in his MR2.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff


Name any other 1.6L with appreciably more low end power. For an old assed 1.6L with 160hp, its low end was pretty damn amazing. Try driving a car with a blacktop 20V and you'll see that without VTEC, you pretty much have to trash low end power to achieve good top end.


The 4AG has VVT and its last iteration was definitely a response to Honda's popular B16s. You say that the Beams 3S-GE and the 2ZZ was Toyota's response to the B-series, I say no, because by the late 90s, we all know Toyota didn't give two shits about performance, and those engines were vestiges of Toyota's past sportiness.

You're biased and sometimes don't know what you're talking about...but no I don't dislike you.

Anyone who I've ever known with a Beams 3S-GE swap goes for the dual VVT version. :dunno:

You are so full of shit Jeff. If Toyota didn't give two shits about performance why did they saddle the last Celica GTS with the 2ZZ-GE engine which has hp & torque peaks at 7600rpm & 6800rpm respectively??? Face it Jeff, it's your opinion and nothing more. Hell you were wrong about the Beams engine for crying out loud.

I'm biased?? Yes I am towards shit head punks like you. Your contributions on these boards usually amount to some smart ass remark about somebody. Some people think it's funny but I find it annoying. Sure I'm no saint but at least I keep things relative to the subject and don't seek out individuals.

[EK 2.0]

"all we are saying...is give peace a chance..."

[Redlyne_mr2]

guys its an engine!.. go and get laid and lets drop it :rofl:

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by heavyD


You are so full of shit Jeff. If Toyota didn't give two shits about performance why did they saddle the last Celica GTS with the 2ZZ-GE engine which has hp & torque peaks at 7600rpm & 6800rpm respectively??? Face it Jeff, it's your opinion and nothing more. That engine is also hailed as one of Toyota's biggest failures. No one bought the GTS because its powerband was TINY.

[avow]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff
That engine is also hailed as one of Toyota's biggest failures. No one bought the GTS because its powerband was TINY.
i have never heard of it called a failure. esp. when people will pay thousands upon thousands to source one and get it put in their car. your going to need to put some sources together before you start throwing random oopinions around on the internet.

[stevo 27]

ahahah what a bitch fest over something nobody really gives a fuck about


:whocares:

[heavyD]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff
That engine is also hailed as one of Toyota's biggest failures. No one bought the GTS because its powerband was TINY.

Aren't you proving my point about Toyota trying to out-VTEC Honda?:dunno:

[Skyline_Addict]

:drama:



:D

[Redlyne_mr2]

This is a beams discussion.. if you want to talk about the success and failure of cars start a thread in general. thanks

[BokCh0y]

Originally posted by heavyD
I haven't dug too deep into the subject but I believe they are tuned by Beams for Toyota in 1998 Celica's and some MR2's. Essentially Toyota's attempt at a Honta B-series type N/A engine. Some people actually prefer them to the 3SGTE in an MR2. If you are looking for something different may be something to look into but I believe you need a specific engine harness and ECU and they aren't easy to find or cheap. I like the red and the fancy manifold but if it has 4-cylinders it has to be turbo for me personally.

Anyone in Calgary have one?

You are wrong about the BEAMS being the competitor of the Honda B Series.

The BEAMS 3SGE was NEVER created to compete with Honda and their B Series engines. As Jeff mentions, the 4A (4AGE, 4AGZE - S/C and even the economical 4AFE) series found in the Corolla GTS and Gen 1 MR2 was developed for this purpose.

The 3SGE was manufactured by Toyota and Tuned by Yamaha.

The 3SGTE was actually developed based on the 3SGE design.

First to third Gen 3SGE's between 1986-1999 had HP that ranged between 135 and 177.

Gen 4 3SGE's began production in 1997 and were known as BEAMS 3SGE (BEAMS - Breakthrough Engine with Advanced Mechanism System). The first version was equipped with VVT-i and produced 197 bhp (147 kW, 200 PS) @ 7000 rpm. It was available in a few models sold only in Japan - the MR2 G and G-Limited, the Celica ST202 SS-II and SS-III and the Caldina.

In 1998 a second version was released with dual VVT-i (variable timing on both the intake and exhaust cams), titanium valves and a slightly higher compression ratio. This engine powered the Altezza RS200 and produced around 207 bhp (154 kW, 210 PS) @ 7600 rpm.

The two variants are easily identifiable by colour. The cam covers on the earlier model are red and on the later model, black. They are often referred to as the "Red Top" and the "Black Top" respectively.

The "Grey Top" BEAMS 3S-GE was an available engine option in the Rav4 in Japan. Even though the valve cover on this engine is black, it is referred to as "Grey Top" to differentiate it from the Dual-VVTi "Black Top" in the Altezza. Power output is 177 bhp (132 kW, 180 PS) @ 6600 rpm.

But realistically....the BEAMS engine's real advantage would probably be having dual vvt-i producing 207 hp without having the turbo lag....other than that i don't see anything special with it.

And yes.....it was just Toyota's marketing in the end.


Source of info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_3S-GE

[avow]

well BokCh0y, i think you basically cleared it all up. thanks buddy. wikipedia for the win.

[A790]

Originally posted by Redlyne_mr2
This is a beams discussion.. if you want to talk about the success and failure of cars start a thread in general. thanks
Thanks for cleaning up the thread :D

[sdiep]

All I can say is, all of you guys know more about cars than me. :thumbsup:

[pulse_crx]

this thread would be better if there was a vid of a beams mr2 or celica !

[avow]

Originally posted by pulse_crx
this thread would be better if there was a vid of a beams mr2 or celica ! FHx3fwJ2w3Y
:eek:

[mr2mike]

Originally posted by sdiep
All I can say is, all of you guys know more about cars than me. :thumbsup:

You mean google and wikipedia know more about cars than you.

The thread should have been, why would someone go BEAMS in their MR2?
"what is BEAMS?" should have been typed into the google tool bar, not a new thread. No offense.

[dj_Twin_turbo]

Originally posted by mr2mike


You mean google and wikipedia know more about cars than you.

The thread should have been, why would someone go BEAMS in their MR2?
"what is BEAMS?" should have been typed into the google tool bar, not a new thread. No offense.

Oh please. This is an MR2 community, what better place to ask a question about the MR2?

...and FYI, type "what is BEAMS?" into Google, and you don't get a single result related to the 3SGE on the first 5 pages.