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View Full Version : 75mm MAF and 30lb injectors installed



Ekliptix
07-26-2003, 10:24 PM
thumper392 on www.performance-shop.com did the install for me.
he drives a novi2000 blown 392ci convertable.


http://streetchallenge.com/uploadpix/up/MAFINJ1.jpg
http://streetchallenge.com/uploadpix/up/MAFINJ2.jpg
http://streetchallenge.com/uploadpix/up/MAFINJ3.jpg
I didn' know if he wanted his face on teh intranet.
http://streetchallenge.com/uploadpix/up/MAFINJ4.jpg
http://streetchallenge.com/uploadpix/up/MAFINJ5.jpg
http://streetchallenge.com/uploadpix/up/MAFINJ6.jpg
http://streetchallenge.com/uploadpix/up/MAFINJ7.jpg
http://streetchallenge.com/uploadpix/up/MAFINJ8.jpg
My weird strut brace with included camber plates. We realigned the camber by refering to the original plate marks when wwe reinstalled the brace.
http://streetchallenge.com/uploadpix/up/MAFINJ9.jpg


It idled perfectly right away.


One issue that maybe someone can help me with.
I took if for a spin after the install and after a short burst of throttle I came to a stop and found a fluid causing smoke on the driver side header. There's quite a bit of fluid. I don't think it's the head gasket because I still have full power, and the fluid seems to spray out only at WOT. I think it might be oil, the smoke is white. I just had an oil change earlier but this was not happening.
I can't see where it's coming from.
edit: I'm pretty sure it's oil now.

dj_honda
07-26-2003, 11:00 PM
i have no clue about mustang engines and where everything is located so i cant help you there, but you should talk to the guy who did the install....isn't burning oil usually a bluish color? or is it not burning? :dunno:

Maxt
07-27-2003, 12:53 PM
You'd smell it I think if it was oil..sounds like more like coolant, does it smell "sweet" or like one one of those worn out oil burning checker taxi cabs?...
Are you sure you have enough injector for the supercharger and the MAf?.. you have 8 30 lbs right.. thats 240 lb/s of injector total..
I am running 430 lb's of worth injector right now, and sometime I see some pretty high duty cycles...
I ran some of the injector calcs, and 30 lbs injectors in your application are tapped out around 325-350 flywheel hp which is where an s/c 302 should be around..
Is one of your heads lifting? Are you detonating.. Oil should leave a carbon build up on the header where its burning..maxt

legendboy
07-27-2003, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by Maxt

I ran some of the injector calcs, and 30 lbs injectors in your application are tapped out around 325-350 flywheel hp

He's running an fmu. 320cc injectors should be good for more power than that :dunno:

Maxt
07-27-2003, 03:12 PM
Depends on the static fuel pressure, and then the capabilties of his fuel pump at and above those pressures, fuel pump delivery falls as pressure is increased, thus the FMU patch for the small injectors, maybe making his fuel pump max out as well...
I ran it through a couple of the calculators, and thats all it came out to...
If the FMU is 1:1 though, the differential pressure remains the same, so even though the fuel pressure is going up the flow rate of the injector at a given duty cycle will remain the same, since the manifold pressure is increasing as well..
For instance:
Manifold pressure fuel psi Differential
0 psi 43.5 43.5
1 44.5 43.5
2 45.5 43.5
etc etc
at .6 bsfc(supercharged). The peak rating for those injectors is 38.7 hp/injector at 80% duty cycle which equates to 309.6 hp in an 8 cyl app..
Now what about the fuel pump, stock mustang or is it a walbro and which one?

Ekliptix
07-27-2003, 03:14 PM
Thanks for the input ppl.

I discovered that the ppl who did my oil yesterday put too much in. The oil was coming out of the top of the dipstick and the wind was throwing it around. I drained a ~.75L and it's not happening anymore.

I'm losing the FMU soon and will be using a TwEECER ECU programmer.

Ekliptix
07-27-2003, 03:15 PM
I'm using a 190lph fuel pump

Toms-Celica
07-27-2003, 03:15 PM
Im looking at getting the exact same pro M for my Bird. What do you think of it? Quality and fit?

Maxt
07-27-2003, 03:18 PM
Good plan on getting the ecu change.. the n/a maps can be added to , to get the enough fuel, but you can never get the curve right for the boost, also having timing control does wonders for tuning...
.75 of a litre on a v-8 is nothing by the way, we took 4-5 litres of extra oil out of rotary once, it still ran, but smoked alot till we got it down to about 2 litres above full( the moral here is always change your own oil), on big block dodges, its not uncommon to run an extra 2 quarts above full in HP applications with rear sump pan....... It may be time to have a leak down test done on your motor, that sounds like non functioning pcv system/cylinder blow by problems than excessive oil, you may have stopped it from coming out the stick, but the problem may be still be there..Maxt

Ekliptix
07-27-2003, 03:21 PM
The quality is said to beat OEM.

It seems fine. The mustang shop sold it for $290 which is pretty good.
The C&L are cheaper but I've heard that they cause problems.

Ekliptix
07-27-2003, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by Maxt
Good plan on getting the ecu change.. the n/a maps can be added to , to get the enough fuel, but you can never get the curve right for the boost, also having timing control does wonders for tuning..Maxt

The guy whos doing the dyno tuning said that he's never gained less then 25whp on a blown car using TwEECcer, so it'll be worth it plus I might get a little better mpg.

I've been told that a bigger TB and intake, even a GT40, will free up a ton of flow.

Right not I'm thinking of picking up a used 3 core rad because I don't like running between 200-220.

Hollywood
07-28-2003, 06:32 PM
I agree with max, 30/lb is small, the 50's would only have been around $10 more per injector, just as an FYI, I use the 72lb injectors for a 4cyl, and use a 80mm maf on my car.

Ekliptix
07-28-2003, 07:15 PM
and you also trap 10mph faster then me.

This car (the owner did my injector install) can push 15lbs of boost and lay down ~550rwhp.
http://streetchallenge.com/uploadpix/up/MD10.JPG

here's the specs:
http://streetchallenge.com/uploadpix/up/MD25.JPG

he uses 50lb injectors in an untuned state.

I'm not boosting past 7psi so I should be fine.

BigBearWest
07-28-2003, 07:23 PM
is that mustang a convertible?

Ekliptix
07-28-2003, 07:51 PM
the blue one is.

BigBearWest
07-28-2003, 08:26 PM
kool. i think i have see it in the royal oak area.

THREE40SEVEN
07-29-2003, 10:12 AM
30lbers are fine without the FMU. I've used them MANY times on combo's like ekliptix', and far beyond. My own car has 30's, and im at 340rwhp on toma's dyno.
The stock fuel pressure regulator will increase fuel pressure at a 1:1 ratio in relation to boost.
50lb injectors are WAY more money than the 30's, and way too much injector for the proposed combo.

Toms-Celica
07-29-2003, 11:45 AM
I've got to get some injectors and the fuel pump for the Bird if I boost the thing up.
Thinking of a 255 LPH and a set of 6; 30 or 38lb/hr injectors.

Maxt
07-30-2003, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by THREE40SEVEN
30lbers are fine without the FMU. I've used them MANY times on combo's like ekliptix', and far beyond. My own car has 30's, and im at 340rwhp on toma's dyno.
The stock fuel pressure regulator will increase fuel pressure at a 1:1 ratio in relation to boost.
50lb injectors are WAY more money than the 30's, and way too much injector for the proposed combo.
Do you know what your injector pulse width was at when you did the run.. I would bet your injectors are at 100% duty cycle or very close to...
I ran your setup through every calculator I have, and I come up with a a flywheel horspower rating of around 365 at 95% duty cycle, so I would say you are on the ragged edge of your fuel system, or Toma's dyno is out to lunch and your car has only 7% drivetrain losses, the math doesn't lie, you can only make so much HP out of so much fuel...
It sounds to me like Ekliptix may have a broken top ring on one or two cylinders, thats why he's pushing oil...Detonation perhaps?
I am currently running 430 lbs/hr of fuel injector, and I see duty cycles as high as 75% so far under boost at 11:1...

If you are after cheap big injectors, the RX-7 non turbo injectors are about 45 lbs/hr, and can be found on 86-88 rx-7's(low impedence)..
Also on the stock fuel pressure regulator, assuming a static pressure setting of 43 psi , with a 1:1 ratio , at 15 psi of boost, the injector flow rate stays the same as it was off boost, as the differential stays the same. Even with a 2:1 ratio, and raising the Fuel pressure to 78 psi, your flow rate of you injector only increases to 38 lb/s hr, and thats if your fuel pump is happy with those flow rates at 78 psi, which its probably not..
I am not trying to pick on you guys, just trying to tell you that you might be shopping for pistons soon..Maxt

Ekliptix
07-30-2003, 08:03 PM
I actually think it was a out of place PCV valve.

Maxt
07-31-2003, 06:11 AM
Last time you said it was .75 litre of to much oil...I dunno , its your car, gamble with the engine if you want to...Maxt

Toms-Celica
07-31-2003, 08:39 AM
Oil leaking? Check to make certian your valve covers have been torqued to the proper amount.

cya
07-31-2003, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by Hollywood
I agree with max, 30/lb is small, the 50's would only have been around $10 more per injector, just as an FYI, I use the 72lb injectors for a 4cyl, and use a 80mm maf on my car.

uh... yeah... you have 4 injectors... he has 8... just a wee bit of difference there. :nut:

and FYI... not that i recommend it but my buddy has run 30# injectors on his mustang with a 4:1 fmu for 5 yrs now and he traps 124.5mph in his full weight mustang using 92 octane gas. this is even a supercharged non-intercooled set up too.

the reason for the differences in injector/fuel needs even if the hp production is the same is because of combustion efficiency variances.

Maxt
08-03-2003, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by cya


uh... yeah... you have 4 injectors... he has 8... just a wee bit of difference there. :nut:

and FYI... not that i recommend it but my buddy has run 30# injectors on his mustang with a 4:1 fmu for 5 yrs now and he traps 124.5mph in his full weight mustang using 92 octane gas. this is even a supercharged non-intercooled set up too.

the reason for the differences in injector/fuel needs even if the hp production is the same is because of combustion efficiency variances.
Fmu's increase injector flow differential but penalize the fuel pump flow rate...
Do the multiplication....Hollywood's setup pushes more fuel and his car is probably around that same HP, and the 4 72's is like running 9-30lb/hr injectors...Look at the supra with less rated power than what has been stated here, 6- 55 lb/hr injectors.. 330 lb/hr's worth for 320 flywheel hp, given that these guys are trying to push to 340 rear wheel hp, lets say 10% drivetrain losses , 375 flywheel hp, out of 240 lb's of worth of injectors, it doesn't add up.. the supra makes 53.3 hp per cylinder, the setup in question makes 47 hp/cylinder, given that toyota gave the supra 55 lb'hr injectors for 53 hp thats 1lb/hr for just about every single hp, using Toyota's engineering which incidentally lines up with alot of online fuel calcs, using safe injector duty cycle limits, these guys should have somwhere around 47 lb/hr injectors to keep duty cycles reasonably low, and not have to run stratospheric fuel pressures..
Buy the book "maximum boost" its worth the money and has all this info in it...Maxt

cya
08-03-2003, 03:33 PM
lol... you have too many calculations going on and not enough real world examples.

my car used 48#/hr injectors and pulled 520rwhp on 92 octane gas and again on a non-intercooled supercharged application. it ran INSANELY rich. so much so that your eyes would seriously tear up from following behind in another car. the plugs looked like they were dipped in tar. i don't need no book from corky to tell me the 48's were well up to the task for 520 rwhp. just like i don't need no book to tell me my friend's car is running just fine with a 4:1 fmu and 30#/hr injectors. so if you still think they should be running 47#/hr injectors for 375 flywheel hp when i had WAY more than enough fuel using 48's on 520 RWHP then you're insane. haha. ;)

bottom line is ekliptix should be just fine for fuel requirements since i highly doubt he's pulling more than mid 120 trap speeds.

Maxt
08-03-2003, 09:58 PM
Congratulations, now you know how locking injectors at a 100% duty cycle makes your car run...
I suggest you call Nasa and tell them you found away around the physical laws of reality...Maxt

rx7_turbo2
08-03-2003, 11:49 PM
No kidding. 2+2 is always 4, even if for some reason a friend you know came up with 5 for an answer one time. I would like to see the duty cylce of the injectors but no one seems to be able to come up with it.

cya
08-04-2003, 01:23 AM
no it's not from injector lock up so don't be jumping to conclusions. it was from mismatched MAF/injectors.

here are a couple more examples of what mustangs need in terms of fuel injectors.

#1

http://members.aol.com/wa2fst/LXspecs.html

50#/hr injectors and the car runs 134mph through the 1/4 mile.

#2

http://www.treperformance.com/Customers/ZakCoupe.html

24#/hr injectors and 113mph trap speeds

#3

http://www.andersonfordmotorsport.com/cars/Jtansey.html

30#/hr injectors and 114mph traps speeds

#4

http://www.andersonfordmotorsport.com/cars/Banderson.html

38#/hr injectors and 118mph

#5

http://www.andersonfordmotorsport.com/cars/Begeland.html

42#/hr injectors and 131mph

#6

http://www.andersonfordmotorsport.com/cars/Bjobermeyer.html

30#/hr injectors and 117mph

#7

http://www.andersonfordmotorsport.com/cars/Blunner.htm

42#/hr injectors and 129mph

#8

http://www.andersonfordmotorsport.com/cars/Cmaddox.html

30#/hr injectors and 129mph

#9

http://www.andersonfordmotorsport.com/cars/HiRev347.html

42#/hr injectors, [email protected]

#10

http://www.mustang50magazine.com/featuredvehicles/95678/

36#/hr injectors ~500hp.

#11

http://home.socal.rr.com/mskwik/99S351.html

36#/hr injectors and ~500hp. isn't it funny how saleen used 36#/hr injectors on their ~500 hp cars??

maybe we should all call nasa?? :rolleyes:

Vitesse951
08-04-2003, 03:23 AM
I don't know where you are getting your info from Maxt. Your injector calculator is a little flawed.

The 34 lb/hr stock injectors on my 4 cyl were running 100% duty cyle at around 300 flywheel HP.

A 300HP V8 would only need 17 lb/hr injectors to keep that same 100% duty cyle. That is because 300hp is theoretically going to be the same amount of total air and fuel in every engine. He has twice as many cylinders, so therefore has half the air/fuel in any given one of his cylinders as I do in any one of mine. So he only needs a injector with half the flow capacity.

A 600HP V8 could use my old 34 lb/hr injectors if he wanted to run 100% duty cycle.

Obviously no one wants to run 100% duty cycle, but Ekliptix'x car is not pushing anywhere near 600hp.

IMHO, those 30 pounders are more than adequate for the amount of power he is pushing. I doubt he is seeing a duty cycle over 70%.