Home Theatre Advice!

[msouther]

Hey Folks,

I built a dedicated home theatre in my basement with a 7.1 set up, 2 - 10" subs, 92" screen etc. I like the sound, but I want it to sound better.

My question is for you audiophiles: Would the sound be enhanced that much more to drop an extra couple thousand dollars on some deadening panels for the wall?

I didn't use any special drywall or insulation which I probably should've. Here is a link to the website of the product I am thinking about getting:

http://primacoustic.com/index-broadway.htm

I should also mention that my goal is to increase the bass and I am thinking after reading about these that they won't help improve this. I should get 12's instead. Thanks!

[Graham_A_M]

Your basement may not need it.

Try clapping once really loudly in that room, only once at a time, and listening for any echos at all. Idealistically, you shouldn't hear any. If the sound is just minimal, and you barely hear any echo, then I'd suggest saving your money, and avoid any sound deadening. However if you hear a pronounced echo, then by all means: get this stuff, as you'll be hearing countless sound refractions on quite a consistant basis.
The problem with sound refractions is, they can compound in the worse ways, cancelling harmonics in the sound, and generally blurring the sound considerably.

There are many things you can do for very little money that cancel these sound refractions, however you typically need a sound engineer to come in and evaluate where the sound refracts, and go from there.

All in all... ^ to avoid all this jargon, you probably dont need this, as I've never seen an instance whereas this stuff was NEEDED.
I'd save your money and potentially experiment with different speaker positionings to avoid any sound refractions. A simple remodel can save you considerable money and work towards installing all this deadening. :thumbsup:

[porscha.911]

If you want the extra bass, just go for a 12" sub instead, and rearrange your speakers for better sound. not a lot of people have a room where they get an echo where they need sound deadening.

[jdmakkord]

you can double layer your drywall as well to help dampen sound vibration

[DeeK]

Sound dampening or sound proofing with "dedicated" materials is a waste of money unless you are running a music recording studio.

Proper use of insulation, double layer drywall, etc etc does almost the same thing for a fraction of the cost. Although for a home theatre setup, you probably shouldn't need it unless you are living in a house that was built pre-70's.

[dragonone]

since we're on the topic of sound deadening
does that foam-cushion stuff shaped like a wave help?

my friend was thinking about sticking it all around his room 'cause he wants to blast it and it'll help not waking up his other roomates:dunno:

[GTS Jeff]

It also depends on the setup of your room. It's best to have a symmetrical room with many extra angles to disperse the sound better. And of course using carpeted flooring will minimize reflections too.

[Schwa]

A 10" sub will lack the extension of an equivalent 12". Are your 10" subs placed beside each other? If not then they could be cancelling each other out. I'd go for one good 12" to start.

SVS and Hsu Research are two great internet direct brands that produce quality subs. I have a Hsu VTF3Mk3 on the way right now.

If you have thousands to drop on sound deadening then I suggest this sub, which is about $900. It has two modes, one for max SPL and one for max bass extension.

Once you get the sub use an SPL meter and test tones to find proper placement of your sub. Only then should you look at noise cancellation to take down any response peaks.

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by Schwa
A 10" sub will lack the extension of an equivalent 12". Are your 10" subs placed beside each other? If not then they could be cancelling each other out. I'd go for one good 12" to start.

SVS and Hsu Research are two great internet direct brands that produce quality subs. I have a Hsu VTF3Mk3 on the way right now.

If you have thousands to drop on sound deadening then I suggest this sub, which is about $900. It has two modes, one for max SPL and one for max bass extension.

Once you get the sub use an SPL meter and test tones to find proper placement of your sub. Only then should you look at noise cancellation to take down any response peaks. :werd: The first couple times you do it, using test tones and graphing out frequency response can take a long time, but once you get good at it, it only takes a few minutes to do each time. Still though, expect to spend a lot of time on tuning. That's part of the fun of messing with audio equipment.

[msouther]

Hey Folks,

Thanks for the feedback. I haven't tried the clap thing yet, but I will when I get home tonight. I went with two new Paradigm 3100's I believe they are as Paradigm makes good subs. I notice that my upstairs theatre, which isn't a dedicated room and is 5.1 setup has more bass and I have one Velodyne DPS 12 up there. It could be because of the concrete walls in the basement as well as the concrete floor which is prohibiting the bass to penetrate as much. I did put down the Dricore sub-floor for warmth reasons, but also to provide some movement for the subs on the floor. I put a thick shag carpet with a 8 lb. underlay as well.

I should talk to my home theatre guy about trading in my 10's for 12's if he would do that. They are about 6 feet away from eachother, so they aren't cancelling each other out. This is stupid to not have put in the original post, but I forgot. Anyways, I don't have the two doors hung in my theatre room yet, so there are a few spots where the sound is escaping. Would that make a big difference? Thanks again.

GO FLAMES GO!

[dmtx]

I do have my hometheater in the basement as well and didn't have to use any of this stuff. The room is 15x24 and all use is this 12" sub. My doors are rattling and feels like the joists are going to move with this one and I'm not even over exagerating. That being said, I had to find the right location for the subwoofer. It is effective in one corner and not from the other.


http://www.sonicboomaudio.com/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=477

Edit: here's the link to the US manufacturer: http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-cyl.cfm

As per one of the posts: HSU is another awesome subwoofer.

[ZMan2k2]

One thing I've noticed so far is that everyone is focusing on the subs in your room. There's plenty that you can do before you even consider replacing them though. First thing, is what type of receiver are you running? If it has it, have you used the Acoustic calibration in the receiver for the new room? This is important, simply because the room has changed. Using this will help in improving the sound as the receiver will auto adjust the EQ for the design of the new room. Second is the subs themselves. Sure they may be 6ft apart, but there could be some phase issues with them. What you really need is to get an SPL meter, like a cheap one from "The Source" (aka. Radio Shack) and play some test tones for the subs. You can download many test tones on the internet, and play them through the DVD. For information on how to calibrate with an SPL meter, use this link. (http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=38765) This way you can use the phasing on the subs to ensure they aren't cancelling each other out.

[dmtx]

I'm using HK receivers and it has built in self tuning capabilities which I thought was decent. From there I did the frequency response tuning using an SPL (from ebay for $20). But I didn't use it much for getting more bass. I find it easier to get the feel of the lower frequency as most of it you don't hear it anyway. That being said, your bass has to match well with the sound coming from your other speakers. They have to be balanced and SPL can help you with that.

[msouther]

I have a Sherwood Newcastle receiver which is pretty good as far as I know. I had a home theatre company hook everything up, and I am using Paradigm all the way around. I have moved the one sub to the corner and it didn't help at all. I am not saying that my setup doesn't have any bass, but I figured with 2 - 10's it would hurt my ears if I wanted it too. The sound downstairs is amazing though and the system upstairs doesn't compare as far as sound quality goes. I just want to feel the setup more. As I said previously and it might be very important to note, I don't have my entry door and door to utility room hung yet which could make a big difference. The main reason I didn't mention this in my first post is because my system upstairs isn't dedicated therefore the sound is free to travel wherever it wants too.

Thanks for the replies again!

[DeeK]

Originally posted by msouther


I did put down the Dricore sub-floor for warmth reasons, but also to provide some movement for the subs on the floor. I put a thick shag carpet with a 8 lb. underlay as well.



This much carpetting is absorbing the movement of your sub. Basically its causing your sub to stand still and the sub box to move around it (that's an exageration, but you get the point).

If you want the best sound and loudness out of it, it should have only enough padding on the feet to keep it from chattering/vibrating. Other than foot padding it should be, ideally, on something completely solid.

[Graham_A_M]

Originally posted by msouther
I should talk to my home theatre guy about trading in my 10's for 12's if he would do that. They are about 6 feet away from eachother, so they aren't cancelling each other out. This is stupid to not have put in the original post, but I forgot. Anyways, I don't have the two doors hung in my theatre room yet, so there are a few spots where the sound is escaping. Would that make a big difference? Thanks again.

GO FLAMES GO!

wow is there ever a lot of misinformation in this thread. :nut:

If you honestly think woofer size matters, you should audition the Sunfire subwoofer, by Carver. Its a single 8" in a wee sized box. And it'll have the impact and the chutzpa of a 15" in terms of wallop.
Size doesn't matter. Size DOES create an acoustic phenominon called "presense" as an 18" will create a lot more "WOW" then would an 8 for instance, I'll give it that, but dont underestimate the power of a decent small subwoofer. I have dual 8"s in each of my tower speakers. They have a 3db downpoint of 32hz. Thats deeper then most 12" home theatre subs can go... and all the while the bass is so smooth and rich, its honestly incredible.
Like I say, size doesn't matter, only engineering. There are a LOT of things that make a subwoofer what it is. I wont get into any of the things called Free air resonance & room frequency boosting characteristics, but its quite a variety of things in all reality.

Another trick to help make your downstairs stereo sound better, is to eliminate the sound bouncing off of parellel walls. The more "odd shaped" the walls are that the sound will be bouncing off of, the more likely the sound waves will meet each other and cancel each other out. If that means placing furniture in certain ways, by all means. Youd be surprised what a big difference moving a cabinet can make, its all in the manner of getting the sound waves to disapate as well as possible before and after they refract off of walls.

I dont mean to be an ass, but Sherwood doesn't make very good recievers. Their okay, but I'd highly suggest going to a high end store such as "The sounds of music" and modeling some very high end ones just to get an idea of what a different "Sound stage" &"dynamic headroom" their capable of producing
:thumbsup:

[msouther]

Thanks again for the input. I don't think that Sherwood makes the best amps ever, but for my budget it does the trick. I originally went to Sounds of Music, but the main thing I didn't like about that place was that they don't deal with a lot of automation and using the Harmony remotes. As pathetic as it sounds, I chose someone else who could do set up everything to be controlled off of one remote. I am audio stupid! Sounds of Music was great to deal with, but they were a little too high end for what my $12,000 budget could afford. Next theatre I will go somewhere else!

I am turning in the 10's and getting 2 - 12's and that should help. There isn't any echo so the deadening panels wouldn't have much effect for the price. Back to Sounds of Music, I was test driving the NAD amp and I can't tell any difference. The speakers I was looking at were all Paradigm as well so that wouldn't have made a difference either. I wasn't in to dropping tons of cash on a Runco projector at this time either. Even their entry level was around $5,000 plus the Stewart screen was another $2,000 or so.

I will let you know if it sounds better. I guess I just like to feel the bass more and 12's will be more in my face I think. Feel free to make more suggestions. If any of you have Home Theatres, post up some pics as I would be curious to see what you are running. I will post up some of mine once I have it completely finished. Go Flames Go!

[Revhard]

Originally posted by Graham_A_M


wow is there ever a lot of misinformation in this thread. :nut:

If you honestly think woofer size matters, you should audition the Sunfire subwoofer, by Carver. Its a single 8" in a wee sized box. And it'll have the impact and the chutzpa of a 15" in terms of wallop.
Size doesn't matter. Size DOES create an acoustic phenominon called "presense" as an 18" will create a lot more "WOW" then would an 8 for instance, I'll give it that, but dont underestimate the power of a decent small subwoofer. I have dual 8"s in each of my tower speakers. They have a 3db downpoint of 32hz. Thats deeper then most 12" home theatre subs can go... and all the while the bass is so smooth and rich, its honestly incredible.
Like I say, size doesn't matter, only engineering. There are a LOT of things that make a subwoofer what it is. I wont get into any of the things called Free air resonance & room frequency boosting characteristics, but its quite a variety of things in all reality.


:thumbsup:


Yes, just like this. The laws of physics can not be fooled, only the human ear. There are all kinds of trade-offs with the "mini"
subs that you mention.
It's just that simple, an 8" sub can only move a given amount of air. Unless you have an 8" that has 4" of throw, it will not produce the same amount of sound as a comparably-built 10", or 12". You can get the same dB at certain frequencies, but there will be more distortion, usually considerably more.
You only get what you pay for.
That said, you can use your 10" subs fine and work with them.
The more surfaces close to the sub, the louder it will be.
Stick them in corners, play with the settings to achieve the best sound and dB. X-over frequency, phase, gain,etc.

[Graham_A_M]

^ With any more then 20mm excursion, you lose "Step response" exponentially. Step response determines the speaker/subwoofers ability to reproduce sound as quickly as its given. Also, with higher amounts of excursion, typically cone area is sacrificed. That also makes a marked difference in the total amount of air moved, as well as the subwoofers effeciency.

[Revhard]

Originally posted by Graham_A_M
^ With any more then 20mm excursion, you lose "Step response" exponentially. Step response determines the speaker/subwoofers ability to reproduce sound as quickly as its given. Also, with higher amounts of excursion, typically cone area is sacrificed. That also makes a marked difference in the total amount of air moved, as well as the subwoofers effeciency.


Yes, this was exactly my point. Size matters.:thumbsup:

[SHO]

I agree with Revhard. Good sounding music & theatre sound should not have over powering bass. I did once think that it was required and it was fun. But I too use a dual 10" subwoofer system and am pleased with it. Another thing that is also very important in sound is the actual dimensions of the room and the shape of the room. I have build many custom sound rooms for myself and my friends utilizing some of their help as well. Don't just go big (12" subs) and expect good sound. It should be quite an expensive twelve inch sub that retains the crispness of a 10" sub. What I want as do most audio people is bass that sound lou when it is supposed to and not fluttering speaker noise to fill a room. Just my 2 cents. Hope everything works out for you. Remember speaker placement is very important. I usually hook up microphones and tune my system. Last time to do the picture and sound calibration it took better part of a entire Sunday. Do some looking around on the internet should help some.:)

[Schwa]

Originally posted by Graham_A_M


Size doesn't matter. Size DOES create an acoustic phenominon called "presense" as an 18" will create a lot more "WOW" then would an 8 for instance, I'll give it that, but dont underestimate the power of a decent small subwoofer. I have dual 8"s in each of my tower speakers. They have a 3db downpoint of 32hz.

Stopped reading here. 32Hz is not a good frequency response. And and I dont know what 12" subs you have been looking at but most go past 32Hz and probably hit harder too.

Furthermore, it's pretty bold to say your dual 8" "in tower" subs can outpower a dedicated 15".

What is the model of your speaker and where are you getting these facts?

It's not about overpowering bass (like most teens seem to believe) but if you want true musical bass with a flat reponse beyond 32Hz at a significant SPL (say 90dB) level I just don't believe a 8 or even a 10" can do it.

Feel free to prove me wrong. Provide the model # for your system and I will go check it out.

edit: spelling

[SHO]

Originally posted by Schwa



It's not about overpowering bass (like most teens seem to believe) but if you want true musical bass with a flat reponse beyond 32Hz at a significant SPL (say 90dB) level I just don't believe a 8 or even a 10" can do it.

Feel free to prove me wrong. Provide the model # for your system and I will go check it out.

edit: spelling

I had thought that the "old" Final Sound 10" subwoofer had the ability to go beyond 32Hz @90db. check it out

http://www.finalsound.com

Look for the S200 model on the "Old subwoofer" tab.

I also have to agree with you that a 8" has no chance whatsoever of holding a sub 35Hz frequency response.