Einstein: religious beliefs "childish superstitions"

[Supa Dexta]

Childish superstition: Einstein's letter makes view of religion relatively clear.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/may/12/peopleinscience.religion/print

[The Cosworth]

^^ yeah my dad emailed me this today

really good read, reminds me a lot of the God Delusion's book.

[kertejud2]

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

--Epicurus

[The Cosworth]

Can omniscient God, who knows the future, find the omnipotence to change his future mind?

haha

[sputnik]

Originally posted by brendankharris
Can omniscient God, who knows the future, find the omnipotence to change his future mind?

haha

Can a God who transcends time even technically change his mind?

Changing ones mind requires you to be in one place at one time and another at another time. That would be impossible if God exists above time.

[Antonito]

Can God microwave a burrito so hot, that even He could not touch it?

[Eleanor]

God is just a kid with an ant farm who watches, but doesn't intervene except to shake things up a bit to keep us on our toes

[Masked Bandit]

Religion is a mental crutch for the weak of mind.

[Supa Dexta]

Couldn't agree more, but prepare for the flak when you tell people that^.. You crush their gentle minds with such talk.

[syeve]

Originally posted by Masked Bandit
Religion is a mental crutch for the weak of mind.

:werd: You said it better than I could.

[Super_Geo]

Best way to break it to a holy roller:

What would you think of Joe if I told you he full heartedly belives in Greek mythology? Pretty nuts shit, eh?

Yeah, that's how we see you.

[FilthyMcNasty]

Originally posted by Masked Bandit
Religion is a mental crutch for the weak of mind.


YO MOMMAS CRUTCH!!

[eb0i]

Originally posted by Antonito
Can God microwave a burrito so hot, that even He could not touch it?

Love it.

[Penis McNickels]

“Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers.”

-Jesse "the Body" Ventura, 1999

[sputnik]

Looks like a number of the evangelical atheists here didn't read the article...


Despite his categorical rejection of conventional religion, Brooke said that Einstein became angry when his views were appropriated by evangelists for atheism. He was offended by their lack of humility and once wrote. "The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility."

Looks like "strength in numbers" and "weak minded people" exist on both sides of the fence.

Live and let live.

[Antonito]

Originally posted by Penis McNickels
“Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers.”

-Jesse "the Body" Ventura, 1999

On the other hand Jessie was a terrible Governor, and is a 9/11 truther to boot. So he's not exactly the right person to look for inspiration from when seeking out people who aren't weak minded

[Masked Bandit]

Originally posted by sputnik


Live and let live.


Oh I couldn't agree more. If someone wants to base their life off being a good, caring, kind person.....obviously I would never object. It's not my thing but do what you want.

Just don't bring that into my house and tell my kids they're going to hell because they don't go to church on Sundays.

[Daan]

haha if religion is a mental crutch , what would one say about this idiot who quotes Jesse Ventura?

what's next, Rambo does Hamlet and reflects on institutionalizing religion ?


Originally posted by Penis McNickels
“Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers.”

-Jesse "the Body" Ventura, 1999

[Antonito]

Originally posted by Daan
haha if religion is a mental crutch , what would one say about this idiot who quotes Jesse Ventura?

what's next, Rambo does Hamlet and reflects on institutionalizing religion ?



Quick question: Do you think that Rambo is a real person?

[Chris101]

Originally posted by Antonito


Quick question: Do you think that Rambo is a real person?

:rofl: :rofl:

[Penis McNickels]

Originally posted by Daan
haha if religion is a mental crutch , what would one say about this idiot who quotes Jesse Ventura?

what's next, Rambo does Hamlet and reflects on institutionalizing religion ?




At least I know Jesse "the Body" Ventrua is a joke.


How many religious zealots know that their doctrine is a joke?

[blownz]

Originally posted by Masked Bandit
If someone wants to base their life off being a good, caring, kind person.....obviously I would never object. It's not my thing but do what you want.


Good to know you are not a good, caring, kind person. lol


And I'm curious why so many people here like to attack the beliefs of religious people, yet when I see a thread on the site about someone passing away there are countless posts like "our prayers are with his/her family", etc. WTF are you guys praying to if you so strongly disagree with religion? Or are posts like that made for show? :dunno:

[Masked Bandit]

Originally posted by blownz


Good to know you are not a good, caring, kind person. lol




I knew that was going to get taken the wrong way....lol.

I meant that my life does not revolve around what a book tells me to do.... :D

[Antonito]

Originally posted by blownz

And I'm curious why so many people here like to attack the beliefs of religious people, yet when I see a thread on the site about someone passing away there are countless posts like "our prayers are with his/her family", etc. WTF are you guys praying to if you so strongly disagree with religion? Or are posts like that made for show? :dunno:

I'm too lazy to look it up, but I'm sure before you made this post you did the research so you wouldn't look like a fool: of the individuals on here who denounce religion, how many of them also said "our prayers are with them" or some other religiously tinged statement? Was it a high percentage? All of them?

[Penis McNickels]

Originally posted by Masked Bandit

I meant that my life does not revolve around what a book tells me to do.... :D

The TV tells me what to do, and right now I am going to go out and buy some 'roid cream.

[BananaFob]

Originally posted by Masked Bandit


Just don't bring that into my house and tell my kids they're going to hell because they don't go to church on Sundays.

When was the last time that you saw a thread on beyond doing so? I don't know about the rest of you guys but I'm pretty sick of the atheists preaching about their beliefs (or lack thereof) on the rest of the people here. You guys are as bad if not worse than the Mormons knocking on the doors. At least those guys are helpful and offer to help you with chores and give you a free book.

[The Cosworth]

Originally posted by BananaFob


When was the last time that you saw a thread on beyond doing so? I don't know about the rest of you guys but I'm pretty sick of the atheists preaching about their beliefs (or lack thereof) on the rest of the people here. You guys are as bad if not worse than the Mormons knocking on the doors. At least those guys are helpful and offer to help you with chores and give you a free book.

we have rights to free speech and religion (if you want to call it that) as much as any other religion does.

You cant pick and choose the rights YOU want to live by

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by blownz


Good to know you are not a good, caring, kind person. lol


And I'm curious why so many people here like to attack the beliefs of religious people, yet when I see a thread on the site about someone passing away there are countless posts like "our prayers are with his/her family", etc. WTF are you guys praying to if you so strongly disagree with religion? Or are posts like that made for show? :dunno:

Mostly show (just like most religion). However if I were to ever say that my prayers would be going to the FLying Spaghetti Monster, maybe Thor, both are as good as the alternative (the supposedly omnipotent being who let the person die in the first place).

[Masked Bandit]

Originally posted by BananaFob


When was the last time that you saw a thread on beyond doing so? I don't know about the rest of you guys but I'm pretty sick of the atheists preaching about their beliefs (or lack thereof) on the rest of the people here. You guys are as bad if not worse than the Mormons knocking on the doors. At least those guys are helpful and offer to help you with chores and give you a free book.

Mormons will help with chores? Well gosh darn....send 'em over to help build the deck and fence!

And to whoever mentioned it.......no, I don't say "my prayers are with you" when something bad happens to someone.

[BananaFob]

Originally posted by brendankharris


we have rights to free speech and religion (if you want to call it that) as much as any other religion does.

You cant pick and choose the rights YOU want to live by

I'm not debating that, but I will point out that the arguments on beyond are always one sided. How many threads that are pro-atheism have appeared in the past few months versus those that are pro-religion? You guys are just making threads so that you all can agree with each other. Just kinda pointless imo. In each of these threads you have criticism of those that evangelize for their religions and various beliefs yet the atheists here are guilty of the very same theme. Very hypocritical.

[BananaFob]

Originally posted by Masked Bandit


Mormons will help with chores? Well gosh darn....send 'em over to help build the deck and fence!

And to whoever mentioned it.......no, I don't say "my prayers are with you" when something bad happens to someone.

Yep, at least on two occasions I was washing my car when they walked by and they offered to help.

[The Cosworth]

Originally posted by BananaFob


I'm not debating that, but I will point out that the arguments on beyond are always one sided. How many threads that are pro-atheism have appeared in the past few months versus those that are pro-religion? You guys are just making threads so that you all can agree with each other. Just kinda pointless imo. In each of these threads you have criticism of those that evangelize for their religions and various beliefs yet the atheists here are guilty of the very same theme. Very hypocritical.

Things dont need to be equal to be fair, you could make a pro religion one all you want, no one is stopping you.

However I guess like me a lot of people need a place to vent about their religious frustrations and find a common ground on beyond.

if you dont like it, stay out. :drama:

[Rocky]

It's kind of depressing because shit like this furthers the divide between atheists and those of other beliefs. No wonder no one ever gets along when it's always "Your beliefs are stupid because of this!" or "Well your beliefs are wrong because of that!".

Do you really need threads like this? I hear the argument "I want to vent my religious frustrations" but really, do you make a thread for everything that frustrates you in the world?

If people took a little less time bitching and was just like "He/She believes that, I don't, that's cool" then maybe people could get over the fact not everyone thinks or believes the same things.

Agh!

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by BananaFob


I'm not debating that, but I will point out that the arguments on beyond are always one sided. How many threads that are pro-atheism have appeared in the past few months versus those that are pro-religion? You guys are just making threads so that you all can agree with each other. Just kinda pointless imo. In each of these threads you have criticism of those that evangelize for their religions and various beliefs yet the atheists here are guilty of the very same theme. Very hypocritical.

Then go start a pro-religion thread, a couple topics...

"Jesus Was Black...discuss"
"Why the King James Bible is more accurate than the actual Bible"
"Water to Wine...Miracle or Party Trick?"
"Shiva, are all the arms really necessary?"
"Should Buddha go on a diet?"
"What if we're going to the wrong church and every week we're just making God madder and madder?"
"How can we get in the way of scientific advancement more than we already are?"

Too hokey?

[inline6turbo]

Originally posted by kertejud2


Then go start a pro-religion thread, a couple topics...

"Jesus Was Black...discuss"
"Why the King James Bible is more accurate than the actual Bible"
"Water to Wine...Miracle or Party Trick?"
"Shiva, are all the arms really necessary?"
"Should Buddha go on a diet?"
"What if we're going to the wrong church and every week we're just making God madder and madder?"
"How can we get in the way of scientific advancement more than we already are?"

Too hokey?


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


(don't hurt me i'm not atheist, i'm what would be classified as agnostic)

[Primer_Drift]

^^
Fence sitter.. pick a side already.

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by Primer_Drift
^^
Fence sitter.. pick a side already.

There's a much better view from the fence.

[Hakkola]

Originally posted by Masked Bandit
Religion is a mental crutch for the weak of mind.

I say the same thing about morals and laws. Anyone who believes in good and evil is fucking retarded, especially the ones who don't believe in gods.

[BlueGoblin]

I find it funny how people who are members of a religion (specifically here I refer to the Abrahamic ones) think that it is sacrosanct that they be able to tell me that I am going to survive my own death only to be cast into a lake of fire to be tortured mercilessly forever and ever and ever by demons because God, who apparently loves me very much, decided to create me with a skeptical nature and a need for reason.

but,

I am crass, offensive and bigoted if I state that their faith is baseless in reality and is perhaps, a little silly.

[Inzane]

I grew up with religion, put up with all the crap, going to Catholic schools, etc. until I was old enough to make my own choice and not waste my time any more in church with my family every sunday.

I don't have a problem with people having different beliefs than me. What just gets me shaking my head though is the Christians I know that are so INTO their religion that it's ALL THEY DO. The only "friends" they hang out with are people from their church, the only people they play on sports teams with are people from their church, the only people they went on weekend camping trips with were "youth groups" from their church, etc. They talk all the time about their "relationship with God", even at work.

Back in my highschool days, I went camping with REAL friends (irrespective of religion or background). We drank. We partied. We had fun. Our own fun, not fun laid out for us. Not perscribed by a book or a "program". :rolleyes:

[Hakkola]

Originally posted by Inzane


Back in my highschool days, I went camping with REAL friends (irrespective of religion or background). We drank. We partied. We had fun. Our own fun, not fun laid out for us. Not perscribed by a book or a "program" :rolleyes:

Funny thing is, nowhere in the bible does it say not to hang out with non-christians, but there are many christians that have that mentality.

[Antonito]

Originally posted by Hakkola


I say the same thing about morals and laws. Anyone who believes in good and evil is fucking retarded, especially the ones who don't believe in gods.

Morals and laws are a social construct based on mutually agreed on boundaries that are in place for everyones benefit. The only reason they are enforced is to protect from psychopaths who lack the common sense to understand why morals and laws are needed

[Masked Bandit]

^^^^^^^^^^^^

psssst......I think he was being sarcastic.

At least that's how I took it.

Hakkola? Please verify.

[Antonito]

Originally posted by Masked Bandit
^^^^^^^^^^^^

psssst......I think he was being sarcastic.

At least that's how I took it.

Hakkola? Please verify.

From previous topics like this, he's either not joking, or is very commited to this joke

[3g4u]

I never read anything on this site that pushes anybody onto any religion, all i read on here is a bunch of athiest kids who like to bash others beliefs to make themselves feel macho or something like that. I could care less what you believe in and i would never go out and bash you or your beliefs, so why do you guys constantly have to make topics like this that are obviously an attack on anybody who believes in something besides MTV? GROW UP.

[89coupe]

Actually I think its great that the new generation of kids are seeing the ill ways of religion, and are choosing to let their own morals and judgement lead them through life instead of following the teachings of an out dated narrow minded system.

[Supa Dexta]

I made the topic because it was in the news and one of the smartest men to ever walk the earth said it.

.. And if anyone can tell me what religion actually does FOR YOU, I'm all ears.

But I'll tell you straight up, I was the kid forced to go to church every sunday. Upon getting old enough to see I had enough of that garbage, and seeing that it does nothing for ME, I turned in this direction.

Why live your life following the ways of the lord step by step, when you can live a dirtbag life, and then apologize in your last days and be forgiven?

Myself, I'd rather be a man of my own word, do good for myself and others around me and I think I'll be ok...

[Masked Bandit]

^^^^^

You're a sinnner!

:D

[Supa Dexta]

sinners = winners

...word to your lord.

[Hakkola]

Originally posted by Antonito


Morals and laws are a social construct based on mutually agreed on boundaries that are in place for everyones benefit. The only reason they are enforced is to protect from psychopaths who lack the common sense to understand why morals and laws are needed


They are not in place for everyones benefit, they are either in place to protect the weak, or to protect those who are strong, it depends on the law, no single law benefits everyone. Besides, there are many of laws that are not mutually agreed on.


Originally posted by Masked Bandit
^^^^^^^^^^^^

psssst......I think he was being sarcastic.

At least that's how I took it.

Hakkola? Please verify.

I'm not sure if I'm being sarcastic or not. ;)

The way I look at things is that there are actions and consequences, there can not be good and evil if there is no god. As such, couldn't you argue that the person who does shady things at gets away with it is strong, and the people who follow the rules and get taken advantage of are weak?


Originally posted by Supa Dexta

Myself, I'd rather be a man of my own word, do good for myself and others around me and I think I'll be ok...

Be ok for what?

[3g4u]

Originally posted by Hakkola

As such, couldn't you argue that the person who does shady things at gets away with it is strong, and the people who follow the rules and get taken advantage of are weak?



Ya if your ray liotta maby.

[Antonito]

Originally posted by Hakkola
[B]
They are not in place for everyones benefit, they are either in place to protect the weak, or to protect those who are strong, it depends on the law, no single law benefits everyone. Besides, there are many of laws that are not mutually agreed on.

Most of the major laws are for everyones benefit. Look no further than 3rd world shitholes where the "strong" survive and the weak perish. What wonderful places those are, eh? I couldn't possibly imagine why we would want laws and order and moral imparitives to try to prevent that at all.



The way I look at things is that there are actions and consequences, there can not be good and evil if there is no god. As such, couldn't you argue that the person who does shady things at gets away with it is strong, and the people who follow the rules and get taken advantage of are weak?

I'd argue it's more logical to assume the opposite. If you are so bereft of talent and intelligence that you have to resort to crime in order to make it in life, that would put you in the category of the weak.

[Supa Dexta]

Originally posted by Hakkola
Be ok for what?

With myself and my life. Not some "when I get to the gates" type thing.. :rofl:

[Hakkola]

Originally posted by Antonito


Most of the major laws are for everyones benefit. Look no further than 3rd world shitholes where the "strong" survive and the weak perish. What wonderful places those are, eh? I couldn't possibly imagine why we would want laws and order and moral imparitives to try to prevent that at all.

Again, you could argue that it is for most people's benefit, but never will a law benefit everyone. I understand the idea of having laws and order and "moral" imperitives, but these are just social ideas.

For me, there are actions and consequences, not good and evil which is what I'm trying to get at. If you break the law and don't get caught, have you really done anything "wrong?"





Originally posted by Antonito

I'd argue it's more logical to assume the opposite. If you are so bereft of talent and intelligence that you have to resort to crime in order to make it in life, that would put you in the category of the weak.

Are you saying all criminals are befeft of talent and intelligence? Many are quite intelligent I think, especially the ones who get away with their crimes, this includes heads of many businesses which engage in shady practices and see no consequences. There is a lot of business espionage and unsavoury business practices carried out by highly intelligent people. These people are not weak.

Now, in regards to drug dealers and the like who would be more likely to be seen of as "weak" or having lower intelligence, they are created by your laws which are "mutually agreed upon" and benefit "everyone." If weed was legal to be sold, it would put many drug dealers out of business, create a new taxable product and new jobs which are also taxed, this sounds more beneficial to me than what is currently practiced.

Another argument would be that these people don't have anything else that they can do, or are too lazy, or see an oppurtunity to make plenty of cash tax free. How would this make them weak? They are simply bypassing laws, and if not caught they're probably living a pretty good life, with little work involved. Again, wouldn't that make them smarter than you and I?

They could argue that we're being restrained by societal constructs while they are out making good money, not being sheep. Who then, is weak?

It is all about actions and consequences. I believe laws are needed for society, but I don't see why everyone should follow them.

[TKRIS]

Nutshell: "good" and "bad" has nothing to do with god.



Originally posted by Hakkola



They are not in place for everyones benefit, they are either in place to protect the weak, or to protect those who are strong, it depends on the law, no single law benefits everyone. Besides, there are many of laws that are not mutually agreed on.


In a genaral sense, the more global laws are indeed for everyone's benifit (as a whole), and can generally be traced back to a willingness to not "disrupt the herd".

Example: Equating murder with being bad is globally benificial to our species/society.


Originally posted by Hakkola

I'm not sure if I'm being sarcastic or not. ;)

The way I look at things is that there are actions and consequences, there can not be good and evil if there is no god.

The "way you look at things" must be through obtuse spectacles... ;)

First off, evil is a stupid word that carries too many religious connotations. Lets' use good and bad instead.

Is it really your argument that good and bad can't exist without some sort of supreme being to reward us in the afterlife?

If so, I'd suggest that you evaluate your understanding of the words. There are many, many things that can be either good or bad without having any religious connection.
I made a charitable donation the other day. Presuming they use the money for the purposes they said they would, it will make someone else's life better. That's a good thing from where I sit.

Me doing something for someone else, sacrificing a bit to make their lives better, is a good thing.
Hell, it's downright altruistic if I do it purely out of kindness, as oppose to doing it out of a belief that I'll be rewarded/punished when I'm dead.

If you hold any conviction in your "opinions", and you hold any sort of intellectual credibility, you'd have to conceed that if good and bad don't exist without the belief in god, then the belief in god disqualifies the actions of a religious person from being truely moral and/or altruistic, and, as a result, from being truely good.

This argument that atheism results in moral apathy is rediculous. Much like the theory of irriducible complexity, merely proposing that "this" is the way things are is not enough. Since there are millions of atheists, and they are, by and large (especially when compared to other sects that I could list), fine upstanding members of their respective communities, the argument that none of them can do good, or that they are all morally neutral is demonstratably false.


Originally posted by Hakkola
As such, couldn't you argue that the person who does shady things at gets away with it is strong, and the people who follow the rules and get taken advantage of are weak?



Be ok for what?

This does nothing to support your argument. "Good" and "Bad" are terms with farther reaching implications that the immediate results for the individual. One need not believe in god to wish for the advancement and well being of society. In fact, an argument could be made for the belief in god being counterproductive to these factors.

And I think he means he'll be "OK" in the sense that his actions will have a net positive result.
You do not have to believe in god to be kind.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5015557


Penn Jillette
Believing there's no God means I can't really be forgiven except by kindness and faulty memories. That's good; it makes me want to be more thoughtful. I have to try to treat people right the first time around.

Like I've said a million times already: I don't care what you believe. It's none of my business. Where is becomes my business is when you foist your beliefs on me or others, where you spread misinformation, or when you make statements about me or those like me because we don't believe in the same things as you do.

Go ahead and believe in god all you want. If it makes you happy, I'm happy for you; just don't try to say that I'm this way or that way because I don't believe.
The assertion that good and bad can only exist inside your world view, and that anyone who doesn't share it must then be exempt from these concepts, that you've preemptively pilfered to suit your own perspective, is preposterous.



P.S. I like alliteration.

[Antonito]

Originally posted by Hakkola


Again, you could argue that it is for most people's benefit, but never will a law benefit everyone.

The law against murder benefits everyone. You can talk about occassions of self defense or what have you, but the idea that people should not kill each other benefits everyone. Period. The only time it doesn't work to the benefit of someone is if someone else breaks said law. Which proves the point


I understand the idea of having laws and order and "moral" imperitives, but these are just social ideas.

Glad you agree with me



For me, there are actions and consequences, not good and evil which is what I'm trying to get at. If you break the law and don't get caught, have you really done anything "wrong?"

In existential hypothetical land...maybe (or yes or no or however you want to bend things to suit your purpose). In this society, yes, you have done something wrong. Obviously.



Are you saying all criminals are befeft of talent and intelligence? Many are quite intelligent I think, especially the ones who get away with their crimes, this includes heads of many businesses which engage in shady practices and see no consequences. There is a lot of business espionage and unsavoury business practices carried out by highly intelligent people. These people are not weak.

These people were not able to take their talents and win on a level playing board. Therefore they are weaker than their competition, or the system, whichever you prefer.


Now, in regards to drug dealers and the like who would be more likely to be seen of as "weak" or having lower intelligence, they are created by your laws which are "mutually agreed upon" and benefit "everyone." If weed was legal to be sold, it would put many drug dealers out of business, create a new taxable product and new jobs which are also taxed, this sounds more beneficial to me than what is currently practiced.

Fair enough, this is the problem with this whole argument, some laws are not the best solution. Of course, that in no way negates the usefullness of others


Another argument would be that these people don't have anything else that they can do, or are too lazy, or see an oppurtunity to make plenty of cash tax free. How would this make them weak? They are simply bypassing laws, and if not caught they're probably living a pretty good life, with little work involved. Again, wouldn't that make them smarter than you and I?

Given the high probability of incarceration, or death, the short answer is no, they are not. They're just too stupid to look around and notice the dangers


They could argue that we're being restrained by societal constructs while they are out making good money, not being sheep. Who then, is weak?

I could argue that they are simply too selfish, lazy, and stupid to contribute to the overall good, including the long term benefit to themselves. They might end up better off if they commit crime 9although odds are they won't), but at the end of the day, if the majority do not live as "sheep", the criminals life style would degrade horribly as we sink into 3rd world status


It is all about actions and consequences. I believe laws are needed for society, but I don't see why everyone should follow them.

Because you're selfish and don't understand how the world works

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by TKRIS

First off, evil is a stupid word that carries too many religious connotations.

Interesting that you should say that. Perhaps it is because I have never had any interest in religion, but I have never identified the word "evil" as inherently having religious connotations. Words like heretical, blasphemous etc. yes, but not evil.

Just an observation that I found interesting.

[Hakkola]

Originally posted by TKRIS


Example: Equating murder with being bad is globally benificial to our species/society.



First off, evil is a stupid word that carries too many religious connotations. Lets' use good and bad instead.

Is it really your argument that good and bad can't exist without some sort of supreme being to reward us in the afterlife?

No, my argument is that there can be only actions and consequences, "good" and "bad" are just ideas with no real meaning to the universe if there is no such thing as god.


Originally posted by TKRIS
If so, I'd suggest that you evaluate your understanding of the words. There are many, many things that can be either good or bad without having any religious connection.
I made a charitable donation the other day. Presuming they use the money for the purposes they said they would, it will make someone else's life better. That's a good thing from where I sit.

Me doing something for someone else, sacrificing a bit to make their lives better, is a good thing.
Hell, it's downright altruistic if I do it purely out of kindness, as oppose to doing it out of a belief that I'll be rewarded/punished when I'm dead.

Problem, I could argue that you making the charitable donation is bad, if there is no such thing as god. We are only organisms living on this earth, no different from other organisms as far as the planet, or solar system, or galaxy or universe is concerned. You are helping keep another human alive by donating, but humans are pillaging the earth for resources, killing off other species and slowly killing the earth. As such, we are having a net negative impact on the planet, we're basically a virus in the universe. As such we are actually "bad" and you giving to charity is not altruistic, it is selfish.

Now do you see the problem with "good" and "bad?" There can be only actions and consequences.



Originally posted by TKRIS
If you hold any conviction in your "opinions" and you hold any sort of intellectual credibility, you'd have to conceed that if good and bad don't exist without the belief in god, then the belief in god disqualifies the actions of a religious person from being truely moral and/or altruistic, and, as a result, from being truely good.

This argument that atheism results in moral apathy is rediculous. Much like the theory of irriducible complexity, merely proposing that "this" is the way things are is not enough. Since there are millions of atheists, and they are, by and large (especially when compared to other sects that I could list), fine upstanding members of their respective communities, the argument that none of them can do good, or that they are all morally neutral is demonstratably false. [/B]

Again, I would not have to conceed that it keeps anyone from being truly good, as good would be determined by the higher power. As for keeping the religious person from being altruistic, I don't think that is valid, do you know how much it sucks to be a religious person? You can't do anything fun!

I never once argued that atheism results in moral apathy, I just don't like the word "morality" in a godless world.

I only argue that none of them can do good, because "good" is merely a societal idea, and "good" can always be argued to be "bad" by simply looking at events from another angle. As such there is no true "good" or "bad" unless there is an ultimate power to tell us what that "good" or "bad" is.


Originally posted by Antonito


Because you're selfish and don't understand how the world works

Don't have to get personal! :rofl: You're assuming I actually believe what I'm saying, I'm just here to argue. :D

I would get to your other points but I have some reading to do and need to eat. :thumbsup:

[Toms-SC]

Originally posted by 89coupe
Actually I think its great that the new generation of kids are seeing the ill ways of religion, and are choosing to let their own morals and judgement lead them through life instead of following the teachings of an out dated narrow minded system.

This. Nuff said.

[Antonito]

Originally posted by Hakkola


No, my argument is that there can be only actions and consequences, "good" and "bad" are just ideas with no real meaning to the universe if there is no such thing as god.

You ignore the fact that peoples belief in the concepts gives them meaning. People "believe" that we should have government, and thus, poof, government. This applies to pretty much everything we know (or it really is God, either way you're wrong) Saying that there is no God does not somehow magically erase all of reality. In order to say that "good and bad", which most everyone to some degree believes in, does not exist because a very small amount of people say it doesn't, would be like saying that because some crazy mountain man says the government has no control over him, that the government doesn't exist.


Originally posted by Hakkola

Don't have to get personal! :rofl: You're assuming I actually believe what I'm saying, I'm just here to argue. :D


Fine, then your "hypothetical" self is selfish and stupid. :poosie:

[Toms-SC]

Originally posted by Antonito


People "believe" that we should have government, and thus, poof, government.

Sup toma?

[Eleanor]

Originally posted by BananaFob


Yep, at least on two occasions I was washing my car when they walked by and they offered to help.

That's only cause Jesus came to america and told them to.


Originally posted by FilthyMcNasty
YO MOMMAS CRUTCH!!

Wow, really?


Originally posted by Antonito
Quick question: Do you think that Rambo is a real person?

About as real as god, and he's packing.