How much do doctors make?

[Neil4Speed]

So I got in a little bit of an argument with a friend the other day regarding the salaries of Physicians and related occupations. My argument was that General Practicion doctors salaries are much lower that that of what people think - I remember reading a little while ago on the Occinfo (alberta) website that the average salary for a GP was something around $87k, that was about 4-5 years ago. For comparison sake, a dentists was about $117k.

Now I know that Specialists (cardiologists etc) make boat loads of money, but I was curious about the average GP. Any of you guys know where I could find that kind of information, as it is not listed on the Alberta Occ info website.

[syeve]

maybe stats canada?


wiki - "Doctors in Canada make an average of $202,000 a year (2006, before expenses).[31] Alberta has the highest average salary of around $230,000"

[xrayvsn]

http://www.albertadoctors.org/bcm/ama/ama-website.nsf/AllDoc/EE2F7A0AD67B4DA987256E1A007D2A0A?OpenDocument

05/06 stats - $207k billings for the average GP. Then they have to pay their staff, lease on the office space, equipment, licensing and malpractice etc. Overheads keep going up, especially in urban areas due to the increased costs of office space.

[Neil4Speed]

Originally posted by xrayvsn
http://www.albertadoctors.org/bcm/ama/ama-website.nsf/AllDoc/EE2F7A0AD67B4DA987256E1A007D2A0A?OpenDocument

05/06 stats - $207k billings for the average GP. Then they have to pay their staff, lease on the office space, equipment, licensing and malpractice etc. Overheads keep going up, especially in urban areas due to the increased costs of office space.

Wow thanks! Thats great! I even looked on that site.

So I am guessing that after everything, they are looking at about 100k

[MR_PIMP]

I think its more than 100k for sure....

[lint]

Originally posted by MR_PIMP
I think its more than 100k for sure....

I don't think you know any doctors...

[2002civic]

Originally posted by lint


I don't think you know any doctors...
an 08 with pimp in his name, i dont think he knows much

[xrayvsn]

Originally posted by MR_PIMP
I think its more than 100k for sure....

If you mean their overhead, then give yourself a cookie.


Originally posted by Neil4Speed


Wow thanks! Thats great! I even looked on that site.



you just need to know where to look ;)

[The_Rural_Juror]

.

[Neil4Speed]

Originally posted by The_Rural_Juror


They deserve to make more.

I respectfully disagree. Personally, I feel that GP's should have schooling more based on Volunteer experience, and Interview rather than having a 3.9+ GPA, are you telling me that a 4.0GPA student who cannot communicate is more effective at telling you have a cold or seeing the signs of cancer than a 3.6 who can?

Specialists on the other hand need to be the smartest in their field, the best period. If I had someone operating with me, I could really care less if he gave his time to the gift shop at the hospital, I want, the smartest guy possible who can save my life.

[Neil4Speed]

Originally posted by xrayvsn


If you mean their overhead, then give yourself a cookie.




I mean, I understand that overhead would fluctuate depending on location in the city. But how much would the average GP pay in overhead in Calgary?

[max_boost]

Originally posted by xrayvsn
http://www.albertadoctors.org/bcm/ama/ama-website.nsf/AllDoc/EE2F7A0AD67B4DA987256E1A007D2A0A?OpenDocument

05/06 stats - $207k billings for the average GP. Then they have to pay their staff, lease on the office space, equipment, licensing and malpractice etc. Overheads keep going up, especially in urban areas due to the increased costs of office space.

That doesn't leave very much after all those costs are taken into account. It's still a very good salary and you'll get by fine but for the amount of work involved and long hours, I would expect it to be a lot higher.

[syscal]

I think that's why they all share offices and whatnot. They all pay for a pool of resources.

[lint]

Originally posted by Neil4Speed


I respectfully disagree. Personally, I feel that GP's should have schooling more based on Volunteer experience, and Interview rather than having a 3.9+ GPA, are you telling me that a 4.0GPA student who cannot communicate is more effective at telling you have a cold or seeing the signs of cancer than a 3.6 who can?

Specialists on the other hand need to be the smartest in their field, the best period. If I had someone operating with me, I could really care less if he gave his time to the gift shop at the hospital, I want, the smartest guy possible who can save my life.

So you don't think that the doctor who makes the initial diagnosis and sends you to that specialist needs to be smart?

[Kona9]

xrayvsn? You taking patients?

[lint]

Originally posted by Kona9
xrayvsn? You taking patients?

He's not a GP

[nismodrifter]

Originally posted by Neil4Speed


I respectfully disagree. Personally, I feel that GP's should have schooling more based on Volunteer experience, and Interview rather than having a 3.9+ GPA, are you telling me that a 4.0GPA student who cannot communicate is more effective at telling you have a cold or seeing the signs of cancer than a 3.6 who can?

Specialists on the other hand need to be the smartest in their field, the best period. If I had someone operating with me, I could really care less if he gave his time to the gift shop at the hospital, I want, the smartest guy possible who can save my life.

Do you have any idea of what you are talking about?

From what I read in your post you are talking about the INITIAL selection process which determines who gets into medical school based on their grades/volunteering/interview/other BS.

That average joe that volunteered in the hospital ER and got into medical school with a 3.3GPA could very well be the guy operating on your heart if he performs well in med school and kills his licensing exams. His undergrad work/volunteering/other BS doesn't mean shit when it comes to landing a residency in any particular field.

On the other hand, the guy who got 4.0's all the way through undergrad, got perfect grades throughout basic sciences, and aced his boards may be your family doctor. Does that mean he doesn't know what he is talking about/is less educated in the field? Hell no.

I have great respect for family physicians that keep up to date with what is new in medicine and take pride in performing thorough examinations. IMO GP's play a VERY important part in health care simply because they are the first person that you go to see. These are the people that have the ability to catch problems BEFORE they start and/or recommend preventative steps that you can take to minimize illness/injury in the future. They are underpaid and under-valued IMO.

[r0g3r]

are there any doctors on this forum? just wondering.

[Aleks]

yes some have even posted in this thread

[ZorroAMG]

xray, what is your specialty? :)

[A790]

Originally posted by ZorroAMG
xray, what is your specialty? :)
Radiologist I believe, though I may be wrong.

[max_boost]

^^^

He mentioned it in a McDonald's thread. The kid behind the counter who would go to Med School and one day serve his customers again haha :D

[nbaker00]

Yes doctors make good money, but not as much as they should..

Think about this (which some of you mentioned)

You are a specialist doctor, and have done 14 years of school AFTER Grade 12 (using an example in my family).. So 26 years of school, and you make $500,000 a year (just an example number which is on the high side for most docs)
You are paid to save lives....

Now lets say you're an entertainer/musician who only has a basic education and makes $10-20 million a year... (Which is average for some better ones I guess)

Should a person who saves lives and has spent that much time in school deserve to make 2% of what a person who entertains people does?

[r0g3r]

I think its safe for me to say I agree with nbaker. I cannot begin to imagine what medical school is like, and also internship and residency. I think they basically went to hell and came back.:eek: I have great respect for doctors and I think they should get paid more for being god's mechanics.

[88jbody]

IMO the more they pay doctors the better.

I want the best money can buy when my life and health and family's health is on the line.

I think a good family doctor should make 150k-200 after expences here in Alberta. I know people with less education and less responsibility making on par with a GP

I think 500k/year for a specialist is a fair wage.

[The_Rural_Juror]

.

[Neil4Speed]

Originally posted by nismodrifter


Do you have any idea of what you are talking about?

You must be a really nice guy in person too.



From what I read in your post you are talking about the INITIAL selection process which determines who gets into medical school based on their grades/volunteering/interview/other BS.

That average joe that volunteered in the hospital ER and got into medical school with a 3.3GPA could very well be the guy operating on your heart if he performs well in med school and kills his licensing exams. His undergrad work/volunteering/other BS doesn't mean shit when it comes to landing a residency in any particular field.

First and foremost, you need some sort of divine intervention to get in with a 3.3, no matter how good your MCAT and volunteering is.

I agree the smartest of the smart generally become into the specialist positions, but they need to open it up so there are more GP's out there and make it less academically focused relative and make it more focused on ethics, interview etc. I don't mean make it accessible to every jobber out there, but find some way to somewhat segregate it from the specialist positions and open it up so we don't have people not visiting GP's due to lack of availability. Its almost impossible to find GP's taking new clients in this city.




On the other hand, the guy who got 4.0's all the way through undergrad, got perfect grades throughout basic sciences, and aced his boards may be your family doctor. Does that mean he doesn't know what he is talking about/is less educated in the field? Hell no.

I don't think I said that - I am confident the guy who got the 4.0 is exceptionally educated and very informed, however, are you telling me that the guy who got denied because he had more volunteer and did better on the interview, has a general ambition to help people/passion for the job, and had same MCAT mark but had say a 3.6-7 GPA should be declined to be a family doctor?



I have great respect for family physicians that keep up to date with what is new in medicine and take pride in performing thorough examinations. IMO GP's play a VERY important part in health care simply because they are the first person that you go to see. These are the people that have the ability to catch problems BEFORE they start and/or recommend preventative steps that you can take to minimize illness/injury in the future. They are underpaid and under-valued IMO.

I also have a great respect for those in health care professions, from the Nurse Aid to the ENT Specialist - dedication of your life to helping others.

I think GP's are paid appropriate amounts considering their job security. However, during times of high operation costs such as how, perhaps there should be some rental subsidies.

[cressida_pimpin]

Originally posted by Neil4Speed


I respectfully disagree. Personally, I feel that GP's should have schooling more based on Volunteer experience, and Interview rather than having a 3.9+ GPA, are you telling me that a 4.0GPA student who cannot communicate is more effective at telling you have a cold or seeing the signs of cancer than a 3.6 who can?


You're saying that communication skills are of paramount importance for Doctors, even more so than their academic aptitude. I'll take the more intelligent 4.0 individual who might be able to diagnose me quicker and more accurately, thanks. You think a subjective measurement of students (interview) is fair to those individuals who earned higher grades?

[The_Rural_Juror]

.

[cressida_pimpin]

^^^ video isn't working

[The_Rural_Juror]

.

[Neil4Speed]

Originally posted by cressida_pimpin


You're saying that communication skills are of paramount importance for Doctors, even more so than their academic aptitude. I'll take the more intelligent 4.0 individual who might be able to diagnose me quicker and more accurately, thanks. You think a subjective measurement of students (interview) is fair to those individuals who earned higher grades?

You need to understand that a flawless GPA coming out of University does not dictate how well you are able to do a job! I personally would have the 3.8 GPA who keeps up to date on medicine, I can talk to easily, isn't rushing me to pump out X clients a day, and will direct me to a specialist when he isn't 100% confident.

I hope that you will never have to be diagnosed with anything serious, however, in most situations where it is a serious ailment/or something that a GP is unsure of they will direct you to a specialist. Thats what specialists are for!

Before anyone responds to my posts, can I make it clear that I don't want some academic probation 2 times over, demented GP - who I can talk to. Please don't exaggerate my statements. Intelligence is important in any professional field - I just feel that what I am stating would be an effective way to increase the number of doctors available while retaining the same level excellence.

[szw]

A GP's income also depends on how hard they work. I know a GP (walk-in-clinic) who pumps out absurd numbers of patients from his office and is paid accordingly. Some others take things easier but are still living pretty comfortably.

Neil4Speed, what gives you the idea that you understand the admission requirements and how interviews/applications are actually processed?

[nismodrifter]

Originally posted by Neil4Speed

Intelligence is important in any professional field - I just feel that what I am stating would be an effective way to increase the number of doctors available while retaining the same level excellence.

It seems like you are forgetting to look at some basic facts.

Here's the thing, Universities can only pump out so many students per year. They only have X seats available for Y number of applicants. Changing the criteria that is used to determine whether a student is worthy of one of those seats doesn't do shit, because in the end, there are only so many seats available. I know the U of S increased the number of seats from 60 to 84, and the U of C recently cranked theirs up to 110 but that doesn't mean shit all for us now because these students are going to take AT LEAST 6 years to become full fledged practising physicians.

IMO our current situation will be solved by streamlining the pathway for international medical graduates (IMG's) to practise in Canada if they have completed their training at recognized foreign institutions. An important first step this past year was that IMG's were allowed to compete in the first round of the CARMS match and I hope that more is going to be done in the near future to open the doors to capable and competent doctors that have the skills and training to excel but are simply being held back by red-tape.

[2002civic]

Originally posted by szw
A GP's income also depends on how hard they work. I know a GP (walk-in-clinic) who pumps out absurd numbers of patients from his office and is paid accordingly. Some others take things easier but are still living pretty comfortably.

Neil4Speed, what gives you the idea that you understand the admission requirements and how interviews/applications are actually processed?
who is this so i can avoid them, i want someone that takes there time, not pumps me out to get paid

[szw]

Originally posted by Neil4Speed

I just feel that what I am stating would be an effective way to increase the number of doctors available while retaining the same level excellence. [/B]

It sounds like you think there is a shortage of people who meet the qualifications, like they have a list of people who they will accept and suddenly nobody else who has the qualifications so they stop accepting people. As others already pointed out this is really not the case.

[szw]

Originally posted by 2002civic

who is this so i can avoid them, i want someone that takes there time, not pumps me out to get paid

That's what she said.

[bashir26]

My best friends brother is a doctor in Toronto. He makes money well into the 6 figures.

[suen17]

Originally posted by 2002civic

who is this so i can avoid them, i want someone that takes there time, not pumps me out to get paid

Doctors get paid by the number of patients they see. If they want more money, they'll find a way to be more efficient.

"Pumping" out patients is not a bad thing either. Imagine if you were seeing a dermatologist, who can see 100 patients in a day. They don't need to spend 30 minutes with you to tell you that you have a rash caused by ___ and that you need to avoid ___ and take ___ to fix it. Don't necessarily avoid or discount a doctor just because they have the ability to see so many patients. I've seen specialists organise all their charts, lab work, and Rx's long before they come in to see you.

However, given a patient who needs more attention, most are more than willing to spend more time, push back 10 other appointments that are waiting and piss off those 10 patients. That IS what a doctor will do regardless of what his schedule looks like.

[suen17]

Originally posted by The_Rural_Juror
I would bring up privatization, but the commies will jump on me in no time, so I won't.

Privatization would actually solve many problems that are crippling the current system. I don't support a health system like ours that is ruled and bullied around by the stick in the ass union. We have housekeepers and support staff that are fighting to be paid on pay scales similar to LPNs (and some RNs) who have had to go to school for their diploma, whereas a housekeeper can sit on their asses and wipe the floor once/day.

Procedures would go to those who can pay and are critical, so that we don't have huge as fuck waiting lists and that those who don't/shouldn't be kept alive don't keep getting resuscitated over and over again (Goddamn alcoholics on their 3rd liver transplant and 100+old comatose fucks) - sorry, I'd rather see selective euthanasia legalized. Besides, if they had to pay, patients would actually SHOW UP to their scheduled appointments so as to not waste a doctor's time

[msommers]

Originally posted by Neil4Speed
I agree the smartest of the smart generally become into the specialist positions, but they need to open it up so there are more GP's out there and make it less academically focused relative and make it more focused on ethics, interview etc. I don't mean make it accessible to every jobber out there, but find some way to somewhat segregate it from the specialist positions and open it up so we don't have people not visiting GP's due to lack of availability. Its almost impossible to find GP's taking new clients in this city.

I can completely understand where you are coming from but it's difficult to really give a straight answer.

On one side, we are in desperate need of GP's, both urban and even more in rural communities. GPs are getting overworked and I quote from one physician, "I could take appointments 24 hours a day and still not have enough time to see everyone." Patients and GPs are the ones suffering right now and the only solution is to get more physicians. This could be completed by MAYBE lowering the standard and/or considering individuals with less than ideal GPAs. This brings up the other side.

When it comes down to producing more GPs, there are many factors to consider such as funding, amount of available professors and class space. All of which are too low right now to accommodate the increase in GP graduates that Alberta requires. In my opinion, it is simple as this but I could be missing something completely. So essentially, lowering entrance requirements would really not solve anything. If for argument's sake, we had triple the educational resources we have now, how could you deal with such an increase in applicants without some direct screening process first? If schools were considering people with 3.3 averages, just image how many applicants they would have to interview. There literally would not be enough time. Bottom line, there has to be a way to separate the piles of applicants. Grades are the more efficient way to do this; other input on applications is too subjective and would take too long to compare one student from the next.

Finally, I have to admit that I did once think as you did on this issue. Your sub-4.0 GPA shouldn't be the deciding factor to why you cannot be a doctor. There should be other factors to consider when initially choosing potential GPs. However, the perceived nerd with a 4.0 isn't what it seems like. You know the one, the person that couldn't talk to a soul because they study all day and night, producing a dire lack of social skills. I think this is completely false. I understand what you mean describing the ideal GP. That person should approachable and passionate, who knows how to talk to people. In my opinion, a vast majority of medical students would fit this description quite well and have the academics to boot.

Sorry in advance if I interpreted this completely wrong:nut:

[Chris88CL]

Originally posted by suen17


Privatization would actually solve many problems that are crippling the current system. I don't support a health system like ours that is ruled and bullied around by the stick in the ass union. We have housekeepers and support staff that are fighting to be paid on pay scales similar to LPNs (and some RNs) who have had to go to school for their diploma, whereas a housekeeper can sit on their asses and wipe the floor once/day.

Procedures would go to those who can pay and are critical, so that we don't have huge as fuck waiting lists and that those who don't/shouldn't be kept alive don't keep getting resuscitated over and over again (Goddamn alcoholics on their 3rd liver transplant and 100+old comatose fucks) - sorry, I'd rather see selective euthanasia legalized. Besides, if they had to pay, patients would actually SHOW UP to their scheduled appointments so as to not waste a doctor's time

Whoa whoa whoa. Let's be careful with our generalizations. While I agree with you about there being some lazy housekeeping staff, lets consider a system WITHOUT housekeeping and support services. Housekeeping is my biggest pet peeve too. I come across 50-60 of them sleeping when they are supposed to be working in any given week. But imagine a system without them.

Would you really want to go in for an operation when no housekeeping staff have sterilized the OR or mopped the blood and shit up off the floor?

How about going in to Foothills or any other Trauma Center in the province for your sprained wrist and not realizing that yet another gang related shooting victim was just brought in....and guess what? The people who shot him are in the same waiting room to finish him off, but because Protection Services (a support service) isnt there you are on your own. Better hope they get their man and there's no innocent victims in the crossfire.

You certainly cant blame unions for the downfall of health care in our province. The blame falls to a MASSIVE amount of useless spending.

I work in the region (In support services), and see the issues with healthcare first hand every single day. The regions priorities are completely screwed.

Everyone complains about the MASSIVE wait times in the Emergency department, but if anyone took half a second to find out WHY the wait times are so brutal you'd realize that its because there's no beds available in the rest of the hospital. Patients who NEED to be admitted are sitting in emerg waiting for a bed to empty out on a unit. I've seen patients wait in emerg for a bed for 5-7 DAYS. Meanwhile that person in emerg is preventing the person in the waiting room from getting their treatment (probably for a runny nose that they could see their GP for).

The spending that DOES happen in the region isnt spent on additional staff/long term care facilities/more beds. No no, it's spent on 8 foot long x 2 feet wide $10,000 granite tables in staff rooms, valet parking programs @ FMC, etc etc.

[Neil4Speed]

Some great information in this thread and its giving me some new perspectives.


Originally posted by szw


It sounds like you think there is a shortage of people who meet the qualifications, like they have a list of people who they will accept and suddenly nobody else who has the qualifications so they stop accepting people. As others already pointed out this is really not the case.

I think my written english might be somethat unclear sometimes!

I actually feel that there are allot of people who have the qualifications to be GP's and are denied, Thats why I feel that the academic qualifications should be decreased slightly and more enphasis on other traits that make a good private practicioner.

[r0g3r]

what about pharmacists, how much do they make? I know it depends on where they work, for example, department stores, grocery stores, hospital etc. Is there a site I can go to where I can see salaries of every profession? that would be great thanks =] (sorry for this off topic naive question)

[Gainsbarre]

Originally posted by r0g3r
what about pharmacists, how much do they make? I know it depends on where they work, for example, department stores, grocery stores, hospital etc. Is there a site I can go to where I can see salaries of every profession? that would be great thanks =] (sorry for this off topic naive question)

www.alis.gov.ab.ca/occinfo/ is the website you're looking for

"Salary section revised JANUARY 2008
According to the 2007 Alberta Wage and Salary Survey, Albertans in the Pharmacists occupational group working part-time or full-time earned from $53,900 to $120,600 a year. The average salary was $83,900 a year."

[suen17]

Many doctors who make it into the profession would not go into a GP specialty because of reasons mentioned above like high overhead, long hours, and sub-par compensation. It takes a huge commitment and drive for a medical student to choose to study to be a GP. They are certainly sacrificing the glory, money and reputation that makes up many doctors' careers. There is nearly no chance for the health system to make up for lost ground unless more doctors are trained (which would take a decade) or if their patients die.

With more and more people moving to Calgary, GP's who already have a full complement of patients cannot take more patients without neglecting the needs of their existing patients. It's not fair to patients who book 6 months in advance when their physician fits in 5 "emergency" patients into that day's schedule, effectively pushing back the appointment time of the patient who consciously wanted to avoid the long wait by booking so far into advance. For the most part, only physicians who make a significant salary, are in high regard, or who have low overhead can afford to do this. Don't forget that if their clinic runs over, they have to pay their staff overtime, deal with managers who receive complaints from service staff who "cant do their jobs" because the clinic is still running; this affects not only the physician's immediate colleagues but also their family life (if they have one) - they miss dinners, dates, etc. It's a slippery slope for them to take on more patients even if it is needed. Furthermore, when a patient of theirs does encounter some health troubles, they become the long term patient requiring follow-up every few months. They WILL be fit into the clinic regardless - even if it's already overbooked! Another physician retiring will cause an influx of patients looking for a family physician or specialist - those too will be fit in. An emergency patient with a flare-up requiring urgent assessment will also be fit in. ... It'll snowball, until at last the patient passes away. For many doctors who consider entering GP, they don't or can't make this sacrifice to live a life dictated by this ever increasing problem. I believe that even by paying them more, not many would willingly submit themselves to such a life - the lack of GPs/specialists/surgeons will still indefinitely be a problem. For me, it's definitely not a job I would take. It requires a massive commitment to altruism "for the good of the patient."

IMO, Lowering academic isn't a good solution either. By admitting candidates who do not have the drive to work solely to improve their patients' health regardless of the consequences to their personal life, but rather for the money + status, it will create a generation of doctors who are not committed to this cause. Instead, candidates who have no direction are accepted into med school, are trained, and then when they have to deal with situations like that mentioned above, they flounder. They'd quit, leave, give up, move disciplines. I'd much rather see entrance requirements be kept high so that students who dream of being a doctor to help will work increasingly hard, thereby increasing the quality of the doctors and the quality of care that they can provide.

As for the union causing problems, I'll always hate the union. Granted, not all union staff are lethargic quacks, but does the union that they solemnly swear to do anything but fight for "fair" 50c raises and cause disagreement between the bargaining committees and management? Shit, make everyone's life better by having to work for your dollar, face consequences for wasting time, not stealing supplies, downsizing (some) useless support staff. Do the math yourself when 100 extra bodies x 40,000$ wage are laid off. Resources are spread so thin when they're actually needed but why during the day are there so many of them on their 1 hr paid lunch, 3 15 minute breaks, and 5 five minute smoke breaks. Fuck. If you worked elsewhere, your lack of productivity would result in severe fucking consequences when job eval's roll around.

[suen17]

Originally posted by Chris88CL


The spending that DOES happen in the region isnt spent on additional staff/long term care facilities/more beds. No no, it's spent on 8 foot long x 2 feet wide $10,000 granite tables in staff rooms, valet parking programs @ FMC, etc etc.

LOL 'Tis true in some areas, but have you been in the doctor's lounge lately? Yeah, it's a dump there compared to some of the units. And this is for the DOCTORS.

Only area I see that has too much money: the University. But then again, they're gouging students by not allowing them to pay by CC when they have 5 40" plasmas set up in a conference room. Wait, yeah, they also have 5 of these conference rooms. :whipped: Oh, and those screens in the "waiting room" with no chairs? what the fuck is that for?!

[Bimmer88]

They make a crap load for all I know...

[szw]

Originally posted by Neil4Speed
Some great information in this thread and its giving me some new perspectives.



I think my written english might be somethat unclear sometimes!

I actually feel that there are allot of people who have the qualifications to be GP's and are denied, Thats why I feel that the academic qualifications should be decreased slightly and more enphasis on other traits that make a good private practicioner.

As has been mentioned already, changing qualifications will have no effect on the number of people being accepted.

[forkdork]

Originally posted by Neil4Speed



First and foremost, you need some sort of divine intervention to get in with a 3.3, no matter how good your MCAT and volunteering is.



Not necessarily. I know for a fact that someone has gotten in this year at the U of S with a 81.3% avg (has to be around 3.3, i'm not too bothered about it so I will not check). There is a trend for medical schools in Canada to place an emphasis on interviews rather than scholastic performance now (IE at the U of S your interview accounts for 65% of your admissions criteria).

While this is great in that it allows those with lower marks and better communication skills to displace socially impaired individuals with high marks there are also significant drawbacks with this. Take the inherent biases and what not associated with panel interviews, it's obvious to see why schools have been afraid of placing a large % of the admission criteria on such a subjective matter rather than the relatively standardized GPA's. The same problem exists with references etc. There have been some improvements in an attempt to reduce the subjectiveness of interviews and what not (IE the introduction of the Multiple Mini Interview system) but I doubt they will ever be as reliable as someones GPA (which I should add at this point can be easily inflated, but I don't want to get into this).

People will always bitch and moan about the admissions criteria. What they are bitching about purely depends on their own individual circumstances. Those with poor marks and good interviews will complain that socially inept people are getting through, those with the opposite will feel that the school is letting in a bunch of idiots.

[Fiasco]

Originally posted by nismodrifter


I didn't mean to come off as rude in my first post, sorry bout that, but it seems like you are forgetting to look at some basic facts.

Here's the thing, Universities can only pump out so many students per year. They only have X seats available for Y number of applicants. Changing the criteria that is used to determine whether a student is worthy of one of those seats doesn't do shit, because in the end, there are only so many seats available. I know the U of S increased the number of seats from 60 to 84, and the U of C recently cranked theirs up to 110 but that doesn't mean shit all for us now because these students are going to take AT LEAST 6 years to become full fledged practising physicians.

IMO our current situation will be solved by streamlining the pathway for international medical graduates (IMG's) to practise in Canada if they have completed their training at recognized foreign institutions. An important first step this past year was that IMG's were allowed to compete in the first round of the CARMS match and I hope that more is going to be done in the near future to open the doors to capable and competent doctors that have the skills and training to excel but are simply being held back by red-tape.


Right On!

The other guy in the thread has no clue what he is talking about lol, he's a moron..

anyways there are 2 schools of thought regarding med school and the situation/shortage of doctors!

First group say drop their salaries, increase seats, second say admit more IMG's! I agree with the second, as soon as they put a cap on how much doctors can earn half of them will peace out to the US!

[R!zz0]

The first 10 years they don't make so much (Paying off student loans and shit)

After 10 years, thats where you see them owning a huge house, hot cars and hot wife or wives.





Originally posted by r0g3r
are there any doctors on this forum? just wondering.

Pls tell me you're joking?

[r0g3r]

Originally posted by R!zz0
The first 10 years they don't make so much (Paying off student loans and shit)

After 10 years, thats where you see them owning a huge house, hot cars and hot wife or wives.






Pls tell me you're joking?

why? am I suppose to know everyone by default?

[R!zz0]

I'm pretty sure that a Doctor wouldn't be chatting on car forums. If they have a problem with their cars, then they would probably let dealers take care of that. I'm assuming they can afford taking their cars to dealerships rather then asking other people for their advice.

[r0g3r]

Originally posted by R!zz0
I'm pretty sure that a Doctor wouldn't be chatting on car forums. If they have a problem with their cars, then they would probably let dealers take care of that. I'm assuming they can afford taking their cars to dealerships rather then asking other people for their advice.


....i have nothing more to say to you...

[XylathaneGTR]

Originally posted by R!zz0
I'm pretty sure that a Doctor wouldn't be chatting on car forums. If they have a problem with their cars, then they would probably let dealers take care of that. I'm assuming they can afford taking their cars to dealerships rather then asking other people for their advice.
Perhaps not on Beyond.ca...However there are at least a few doctors who post with regularity on 6speedonline....

[Chris88CL]

Originally posted by suen17


LOL 'Tis true in some areas, but have you been in the doctor's lounge lately? Yeah, it's a dump there compared to some of the units. And this is for the DOCTORS.

Only area I see that has too much money: the University. But then again, they're gouging students by not allowing them to pay by CC when they have 5 40" plasmas set up in a conference room. Wait, yeah, they also have 5 of these conference rooms. :whipped: Oh, and those screens in the "waiting room" with no chairs? what the fuck is that for?!

Oh I agree about the University, dont get me wrong.

I think we have alot of the same issues with the way things are managed, but blaming the Union isn't fair. They actually do stick up for the right person once in a while too.

Which doctors lounge are you talking about? FMC? Yeah I'm in there all the time, and it is due for a reno. It's still nothing compared to what most other departments have to put up with though. Have you seen the "lounge" for housekeeping? Portering? Maintenance? Protection Services? There isnt one, and all are essential (and some over-staffed) services.

My point is that everyone in healthcare plays their part, yet only the doctors are glorified and given all these "perks" on top of their pretty decent wage. Scale it down a bit and give credit where credit is due. If that happens to be a new doctors lounge, great. If it's new Emerg doors to allow for a full lockdown(in progress), awesome. If it's a bunch of new plasma screens and a $50,000 toilet, someone needs to be fired.

[szw]

R!zz0, r0g3r: wow 2 fucking dimwits arguing

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by Neil4Speed
are you telling me that a 4.0GPA student who cannot communicate is more effective at telling you have a cold or seeing the signs of cancer than a 3.6 who can?

Specialists on the other hand need to be the smartest in their field, the best period. If I had someone operating with me, I could really care less if he gave his time to the gift shop at the hospital, I want, the smartest guy possible who can save my life.

You have a pretty low opinion of GPs. Do you really think that all they do is tell people they have colds? Do you really think that they are somehow inferior to specialists? If anything, GPs need to know a lot more about a more broad spectrum of health care than specialists. The GPs are the ones that treat patients - and quite often in fact, it's the specialists who are accussed of treating cases rather people, simply because the repetitive and focused nature of their work puts them in that direction.

But what really gets to me is how you think GPs aren't underpaid. As we've already established, the typical GP makes just over 100k. What does he/she have to do to make this money:

1. spend about 4 years working hard and studying their balls off throughout undergrad to maintain that 3.8GPA, all the while spending what little free time they have left volunteering for dumb shit, shadowing, and schmoozing with people in the profession.

2. Go through med school. 2 years of intensive preclinical lecture where ALL your time basically goes towards either being at school from 8-5 or studying from 5-sleep. The sheer amount of knowledge you acquire is astronomical; one med school final exam is equivalent to like 10 undergrad exams - I'm not exaggerating. Then you spend another 2 years actually seeing patients. This is an even more stressful time since you are now seeing patients for the first time and you don't want to fuck things up, so you spend countless hours so you don't look like a noob in front of the patient. You also have to compete against all the other hardcore med students for good residency spots. Oh, and did I mention this? Since you're doing all this, you'll have no time to work, so you build up a huge debt load greater than $100k at a minimum. Not exactly a walk in the park - just ask nismodrifter...

3. After all that, you get to be a resident. If you're going into Family Medicine, it's a 2 year residency...and it's usually more for the other ones. During your residency, you are the bitch of the more senior docs at the hospital. They will bend you over and make you work the shitty shifts, long hours, AND you still won't know wtf you're doing, so you'll still be spending tons of time boning up on shit. You'll make about $40k/year while doing this, enough to support yourself (but not your family) and definitely not enough to pay off that $100k loan. In fact, that loan is now accumulating interest like mad too.

4. So finally after 10 years of hell, you are now a working GP somewhere. Congrats. Now you get to work long hours still, possibly be on call still, and with your $100k salary, you get to deal with paying off your student loans, car loans, mortgage, etc...meaning you realistically have to work hard for another 10 years before you are really in the clear and can start making money to save.

So that totals up to 20 years of a crummy life - all for $100k. Now consider that you can just go to SAIT straight out of high school, spend a couple years learning to weld, and be making that same $100k/year. Are you still going to tell me that GPs don't deserve to make more? What a fucking slap in the face to the people who have devoted practically their whole lives to this shit. :rolleyes:

[Supa Dexta]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff
ow my bum hurts:

Why so emotional on the subject?

,ps, I'm not a welder..

[msommers]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff
So that totals up to 20 years of a crummy life - all for $100k. Now consider that you can just go to SAIT straight out of high school, spend a couple years learning to weld, and be making that same $100k/year. Are you still going to tell me that GPs don't deserve to make more? What a fucking slap in the face to the people who have devoted practically their whole lives to this shit. :rolleyes:

I really have to agree with what you've said Jeff. For the long and gruesome road GPs have to take, the amount of money to show for it isn't really that much. The only problem I can pick out is that, individuals who are serious about becoming GPs know the process and the road that lies ahead. In my opinion, 90% of people who are GPs don't put in all that time just to end up with a high paying job. They do it because they truly have a passion for medicine and genuinely want to help people. Personally, a job driven by love and a job driven by money cannot be compared.

[msommers]

Originally posted by R!zz0
I'm pretty sure that a Doctor wouldn't be chatting on car forums. If they have a problem with their cars, then they would probably let dealers take care of that. I'm assuming they can afford taking their cars to dealerships rather then asking other people for their advice.

Yes because a doctor is not capable or willing to get their hands dirty by working on their own car or have an interest in cars, simply based on the fact they are a doctor. I'd really like to point out further how much of a moron you are, but that quote does more than enough. Just wow.

[88jbody]

+2 on jeff's statement

the only way I see there being any improvements is
first more seats in schools so they can put more doctors through and second higher salaries to keep the doctors here

when you can take a trade and make from 60-150k/year depending on the trade I think 100-150k/year is peanuts and no where near what NEEDS to be paid to doctors. and the better the pay the less likely the doctors are to go to a private hospital in the US and double or triple their income

me for example
finished highschool, 1 year of pre-employment training for my trade, 3.5 years apprenticeship then getting my interprovicial licence.


I have worked at shops where some people are making 100k/year doing brake jobs and services. (wish I made 100, but 62k gets me by (without steeling or sellimg things people don't need )

If my brakes and transmission flushes are worth 100k/year
I think my personal health is worth alot more then then that

I think a tech who is good at his job, diagnosin ect on cars is worth 100k, because technology with cars is always changing,

but a doctor who, my, my kids, my wifes health depends on at times is worth a hell of a lot more

[Hakkola]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff

But what really gets to me is how you think GPs aren't underpaid. As we've already established, the typical GP makes just over 100k.

I think the saddest part is that nurses can make that much. My sister is done 1 year of nursing and is a nurse's assistant making $1000/week. Appearantly nurses are making $80 000 and up in this city with overtime pay. Doctors have a much harder journey and they don't make much more money. :thumbsdow

[88jbody]

a RNA does have to put in a lot of extra hours to hit the the 80-100k mark but still that is crazy.

[The Cosworth]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff


You have a pretty low opinion of GPs. Do you really think that all they do is tell people they have colds? Do you really think that they are somehow inferior to specialists? If anything, GPs need to know a lot more about a more broad spectrum of health care than specialists. The GPs are the ones that treat patients - and quite often in fact, it's the specialists who are accussed of treating cases rather people, simply because the repetitive and focused nature of their work puts them in that direction.

{snip}

So that totals up to 20 years of a crummy life - all for $100k. Now consider that you can just go to SAIT straight out of high school, spend a couple years learning to weld, and be making that same $100k/year. Are you still going to tell me that GPs don't deserve to make more? What a fucking slap in the face to the people who have devoted practically their whole lives to this shit. :rolleyes:


I have two friends who are med students (and one of them is on the forums, not regularly because he is so busy) and your "rant" is the best explanation i have seen in this thread. He does a lot of his own work on his Mazda3.


my family GP is the best doctor I have ever met (personally) and I would pay him more if I had a choice.

[B18C]

Someone already said this but I'm going to say it anyways. I like how some of you have pigeoned holed these 4.0 GPA students. The reality is that yes there are some med students like that but they are far and few between. Most of these 4.0 students are extremely well rounded and overachievers like you wouldn't believe. And they really aren't your stereotypical nerds. Most I would say are just extremely motivated type-A personalities that just go-go-go and they party just as hard as they work. I don't know what GTSJeff's experience is but for me I did way more partying in dental school (with the med students) than I did in undergrad.

The thing about GP's is that they are completely under appreciated. It's interesting that most think that all the smartest med students specialize. From my small sample pool, it seems that is just not the case. Some of the smartest students in my class went on to become GP's. 2 of them had parents that are GP's, some others didn't want to be a resident for 5 years. Some became GP's so they can be matched in the same city with their significant other's that got into specialties.

Also, who do you think is the one that generally refers you to specialists? Sure the specialists get all the glory but way more often than not, if your GP didn't notice the problem first your aren't getting treated until it's too late. Plus they really have to be on the ball. They have to separate all the BS patients that see them for day to day stuff from the "serious you can die from this stuff". Imagine for a moment out of 1000 patients that see you for headaches trying to pick out a couple that might actually have a tumor in their brain. They have to sift through a lot of BS.

I would take a smart GP over a smart specialist any day. Like someone said, don't take this out of context I don't want a hack cutting into my brain or whatever but I also understand that you probably wouldn't have a great chance of survival no matter how great the specialist is if your GP didn't recognise it early enough to make a difference. Most serious diseases are time sensitive.

[xrayvsn]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff

So that totals up to 20 years of a crummy life - all for $100k. Now consider that you can just go to SAIT straight out of high school, spend a couple years learning to weld, and be making that same $100k/year. Are you still going to tell me that GPs don't deserve to make more? What a fucking slap in the face to the people who have devoted practically their whole lives to this shit. :rolleyes:

The debt load can be crippling, especially if you have a family. Choosing medicine over another job or trade means that you choose a student life and budget for an extended period. Essentially you spend at least an entire decade of your life in training while you watch your friends who went into a trade or did a 4 year degree in engineering or business move on, buy houses have families, and improve their lifestyle.

By the time you are done training, you get to make the same as those same friends who have moved up the corporate ladder, and have accumulated a full decade of stock options and RRSPs, while you get to pay off the equivalent of a mortgage in student loan/line of credit debt, have no retirement savings and get no benefits, since most physicians are self employed.


Originally posted by B18C
Someone already said this but I'm going to say it anyways. I like how some of you have pigeoned holed these 4.0 GPA students. The reality is that yes there are some med students like that but they are far and few between. Most of these 4.0 students are extremely well rounded and overachievers like you wouldn't believe. And they really aren't your stereotypical nerds. Most I would say are just extremely motivated type-A personalities that just go-go-go and they party just as hard as they work. I don't know what GTSJeff's experience is but for me I did way more partying in dental school (with the med students) than I did in undergrad.

The thing about GP's is that they are completely under appreciated. It's interesting that most think that all the smartest med students specialize. From my small sample pool, it seems that is just not the case. Some of the smartest students in my class went on to become GP's. 2 of them had parents that are GP's, some others didn't want to be a resident for 5 years. Some became GP's so they can be matched in the same city with their significant other's that got into specialties.


+10000. Amen.

The top guys in my med school class went on to become GP's for a variety of reasons. GPA has very little bearing on how good a physician a person is. The med school application and admission process pretty much weeds out those who can't deal with the amount of knowledge needed to become a practicing physician, so you can pretty much be assured that the same good family doctor who is undervalued and unappreciated, would be an equally good surgeon, cardiologist, pathologist or radiologist if that was what they wished to do instead of being a GP. It is the 2 - 7 years of residency ( and possibly 1 - 3 years of subspecialty training) that determinses the competency of a specialist/family doctor. It is certainly NOT the undergrad GPA. Med schools these days do not give marks, other than pass or fail.

Personally speaking, I know people who got into medicine with near 4.0 GPA's, who I would not wish to be their patient, and those who got in with a 3.5 or so, who are phenomenal docs.


Originally posted by R!zz0
I'm pretty sure that a Doctor wouldn't be chatting on car forums. If they have a problem with their cars, then they would probably let dealers take care of that. I'm assuming they can afford taking their cars to dealerships rather then asking other people for their advice.

Absolutely. Doctors couldn't possibly be passionate about cars or want to get their hands dirty fixing, maintaining or modding cars. Why the fuck would I put on my own turbo back exhaust, swap out my own suspension for a better Prodrive one, or datalog/tune my own car when I can PAY someone to do it for me?:rolleyes:

[chris]

Originally posted by nismodrifter


It seems like you are forgetting to look at some basic facts.

Here's the thing, Universities can only pump out so many students per year. They only have X seats available for Y number of applicants. Changing the criteria that is used to determine whether a student is worthy of one of those seats doesn't do shit, because in the end, there are only so many seats available. I know the U of S increased the number of seats from 60 to 84, and the U of C recently cranked theirs up to 110 but that doesn't mean shit all for us now because these students are going to take AT LEAST 6 years to become full fledged practising physicians.

IMO our current situation will be solved by streamlining the pathway for international medical graduates (IMG's) to practise in Canada if they have completed their training at recognized foreign institutions. An important first step this past year was that IMG's were allowed to compete in the first round of the CARMS match and I hope that more is going to be done in the near future to open the doors to capable and competent doctors that have the skills and training to excel but are simply being held back by red-tape.

i think people are starting to wake up to this fact, i know there was an article in mcleans recently about it.

[Fiasco]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff


You have a pretty low opinion of GPs. Do you really think that all they do is tell people they have colds? Do you really think that they are somehow inferior to specialists? If anything, GPs need to know a lot more about a more broad spectrum of health care than specialists. The GPs are the ones that treat patients - and quite often in fact, it's the specialists who are accussed of treating cases rather people, simply because the repetitive and focused nature of their work puts them in that direction.

But what really gets to me is how you think GPs aren't underpaid. As we've already established, the typical GP makes just over 100k. What does he/she have to do to make this money:

1. spend about 4 years working hard and studying their balls off throughout undergrad to maintain that 3.8GPA, all the while spending what little free time they have left volunteering for dumb shit, shadowing, and schmoozing with people in the profession.

2. Go through med school. 2 years of intensive preclinical lecture where ALL your time basically goes towards either being at school from 8-5 or studying from 5-sleep. The sheer amount of knowledge you acquire is astronomical; one med school final exam is equivalent to like 10 undergrad exams - I'm not exaggerating. Then you spend another 2 years actually seeing patients. This is an even more stressful time since you are now seeing patients for the first time and you don't want to fuck things up, so you spend countless hours so you don't look like a noob in front of the patient. You also have to compete against all the other hardcore med students for good residency spots. Oh, and did I mention this? Since you're doing all this, you'll have no time to work, so you build up a huge debt load greater than $100k at a minimum. Not exactly a walk in the park - just ask nismodrifter...

3. After all that, you get to be a resident. If you're going into Family Medicine, it's a 2 year residency...and it's usually more for the other ones. During your residency, you are the bitch of the more senior docs at the hospital. They will bend you over and make you work the shitty shifts, long hours, AND you still won't know wtf you're doing, so you'll still be spending tons of time boning up on shit. You'll make about $40k/year while doing this, enough to support yourself (but not your family) and definitely not enough to pay off that $100k loan. In fact, that loan is now accumulating interest like mad too.

4. So finally after 10 years of hell, you are now a working GP somewhere. Congrats. Now you get to work long hours still, possibly be on call still, and with your $100k salary, you get to deal with paying off your student loans, car loans, mortgage, etc...meaning you realistically have to work hard for another 10 years before you are really in the clear and can start making money to save.

So that totals up to 20 years of a crummy life - all for $100k. Now consider that you can just go to SAIT straight out of high school, spend a couple years learning to weld, and be making that same $100k/year. Are you still going to tell me that GPs don't deserve to make more? What a fucking slap in the face to the people who have devoted practically their whole lives to this shit. :rolleyes:


+3

:) lol OP is a baffoon, i actually had a resident friend of mine read the post and he almost spat up lol, GP's can go to the states and get 50% more pay AND pay a FUCK less tax...they need a major RAISE. Say GP's get 150k..wowww

Right now at the Revenue canada call centre i make 50,000 a year with NO FUCKING EXPERIENCE, im sure somebody with a bachelors in business can make 150 after 4 years of pushing paper and meeting targets..

[us722]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff


You have a pretty low opinion of GPs. Do you really think that all they do is tell people they have colds? Do you really think that they are somehow inferior to specialists? If anything, GPs need to know a lot more about a more broad spectrum of health care than specialists. The GPs are the ones that treat patients - and quite often in fact, it's the specialists who are accussed of treating cases rather people, simply because the repetitive and focused nature of their work puts them in that direction.

But what really gets to me is how you think GPs aren't underpaid. As we've already established, the typical GP makes just over 100k. What does he/she have to do to make this money:

1. spend about 4 years working hard and studying their balls off throughout undergrad to maintain that 3.8GPA, all the while spending what little free time they have left volunteering for dumb shit, shadowing, and schmoozing with people in the profession.

2. Go through med school. 2 years of intensive preclinical lecture where ALL your time basically goes towards either being at school from 8-5 or studying from 5-sleep. The sheer amount of knowledge you acquire is astronomical; one med school final exam is equivalent to like 10 undergrad exams - I'm not exaggerating. Then you spend another 2 years actually seeing patients. This is an even more stressful time since you are now seeing patients for the first time and you don't want to fuck things up, so you spend countless hours so you don't look like a noob in front of the patient. You also have to compete against all the other hardcore med students for good residency spots. Oh, and did I mention this? Since you're doing all this, you'll have no time to work, so you build up a huge debt load greater than $100k at a minimum. Not exactly a walk in the park - just ask nismodrifter...

3. After all that, you get to be a resident. If you're going into Family Medicine, it's a 2 year residency...and it's usually more for the other ones. During your residency, you are the bitch of the more senior docs at the hospital. They will bend you over and make you work the shitty shifts, long hours, AND you still won't know wtf you're doing, so you'll still be spending tons of time boning up on shit. You'll make about $40k/year while doing this, enough to support yourself (but not your family) and definitely not enough to pay off that $100k loan. In fact, that loan is now accumulating interest like mad too.

4. So finally after 10 years of hell, you are now a working GP somewhere. Congrats. Now you get to work long hours still, possibly be on call still, and with your $100k salary, you get to deal with paying off your student loans, car loans, mortgage, etc...meaning you realistically have to work hard for another 10 years before you are really in the clear and can start making money to save.

So that totals up to 20 years of a crummy life - all for $100k. Now consider that you can just go to SAIT straight out of high school, spend a couple years learning to weld, and be making that same $100k/year. Are you still going to tell me that GPs don't deserve to make more? What a fucking slap in the face to the people who have devoted practically their whole lives to this shit. :rolleyes:


+4 !

[max_boost]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff


You have a pretty low opinion of GPs. Do you really think that all they do is tell people they have colds? Do you really think that they are somehow inferior to specialists? If anything, GPs need to know a lot more about a more broad spectrum of health care than specialists. The GPs are the ones that treat patients - and quite often in fact, it's the specialists who are accussed of treating cases rather people, simply because the repetitive and focused nature of their work puts them in that direction.

But what really gets to me is how you think GPs aren't underpaid. As we've already established, the typical GP makes just over 100k. What does he/she have to do to make this money:

1. spend about 4 years working hard and studying their balls off throughout undergrad to maintain that 3.8GPA, all the while spending what little free time they have left volunteering for dumb shit, shadowing, and schmoozing with people in the profession.

2. Go through med school. 2 years of intensive preclinical lecture where ALL your time basically goes towards either being at school from 8-5 or studying from 5-sleep. The sheer amount of knowledge you acquire is astronomical; one med school final exam is equivalent to like 10 undergrad exams - I'm not exaggerating. Then you spend another 2 years actually seeing patients. This is an even more stressful time since you are now seeing patients for the first time and you don't want to fuck things up, so you spend countless hours so you don't look like a noob in front of the patient. You also have to compete against all the other hardcore med students for good residency spots. Oh, and did I mention this? Since you're doing all this, you'll have no time to work, so you build up a huge debt load greater than $100k at a minimum. Not exactly a walk in the park - just ask nismodrifter...

3. After all that, you get to be a resident. If you're going into Family Medicine, it's a 2 year residency...and it's usually more for the other ones. During your residency, you are the bitch of the more senior docs at the hospital. They will bend you over and make you work the shitty shifts, long hours, AND you still won't know wtf you're doing, so you'll still be spending tons of time boning up on shit. You'll make about $40k/year while doing this, enough to support yourself (but not your family) and definitely not enough to pay off that $100k loan. In fact, that loan is now accumulating interest like mad too.

4. So finally after 10 years of hell, you are now a working GP somewhere. Congrats. Now you get to work long hours still, possibly be on call still, and with your $100k salary, you get to deal with paying off your student loans, car loans, mortgage, etc...meaning you realistically have to work hard for another 10 years before you are really in the clear and can start making money to save.

So that totals up to 20 years of a crummy life - all for $100k. Now consider that you can just go to SAIT straight out of high school, spend a couple years learning to weld, and be making that same $100k/year. Are you still going to tell me that GPs don't deserve to make more? What a fucking slap in the face to the people who have devoted practically their whole lives to this shit. :rolleyes:

:eek:

Quality post. :thumbsup: :werd:

+5

[cressida_pimpin]

Originally posted by Hakkola

Appearantly nurses are making $80 000 and up in this city with overtime pay. Doctors have a much harder journey and they don't make much more money. :thumbsdow

My mom is a Registered Nurse. She makes over $80,000 full time, without overtime, working at the Peter Lougheed. For for doctors to make 100k, that's rough.

[badlivertt]

Originally posted by nismodrifter

IMO our current situation will be solved by streamlining the pathway for international medical graduates (IMG's) to practise in Canada if they have completed their training at recognized foreign institutions. An important first step this past year was that IMG's were allowed to compete in the first round of the CARMS match and I hope that more is going to be done in the near future to open the doors to capable and competent doctors that have the skills and training to excel but are simply being held back by red-tape.

cutting up redtape for foreign grads is a good start (although automatically dropping them out of the US match with a canada hit is horseshit)... but that does little to keep them here long-term after their training is completed. at the end of the training, many residents/fellows are thinking exactly what xrayvsn mentioned about the realities of life/practice... and then you look at greener pastures elsewhere.

the quoted figure of 200 gross sounds low... i wonder if that takes the semi-retired (2 days a week and 2 months vacation) gps into account? either way... gps should be paid significantly more... the stupid overhead in this city justifies it.

[colinderksen]

Do doctors in walk-in clinics make less than doctors in other clinics? Seems every time I goto a walkin clinic the doc is clueless. I've been to 3 different ones in the past year or two that wrote me prescriptions that I found out from pharmascist have been off the market for 1+years.

[Gondi Stylez]

With the physicians, to-be physicians, dentists and even the lone radiologist in this thread I couldn't agree more with what they have already said.

GP's and the majority of specialties (GIM esp.) are underpaid. I work for the region and deal with physicians on a daily basis and know first hand the stresses they deal with. Last year I did my internship at the Cross Cancer and realized 8 months in that medicine as a career wasn't for me.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: to all the hard working GP's, specialists, etc that are always undervalued!

PS - to the fuck bag who thinks doctors don't work on their cars I had a meeting today with one who has a 550hp 5.0L Mustang that he built from the ground up! :bigpimp:

[whodiman]

Back in 2001, if you were a doctor who worked in somebody else's clinic (and there are lots of these) you could be reporting an income as low as 110k as i have seen this reported on an income tax return. if you own your own clinic you obviously make quite a bit more. Now mind you both doctors who work for clinics and own their own clinics report an income lower than it probably should be (ie car expenses...even if its their son that drives the car all the time) as they claim a lot of questionable expenses...but then again lots of other people who own their own businesses do too. There is at least one other person here that works or worked for CRA and they have probably audited a doctor before and can probably verify this information.

[BigMass]

There's no way a doctor in Calgary is making 100k. Why? Because its asinine, and any doctor smart enough to be a doctor would bail to the US the second they finished laughing at that salary offer.

So while I don’t know any doctors well enough to ask their salary, I’m pretty sure they make more than 100k/year. 200k/year after expenses would seem like a minimum.

If there is a doctor here making 100k/year all I have to ask you is, why?

[msommers]

Originally posted by BigMass
There's no way a doctor in Calgary is making 100k. Why? Because its asinine, and any doctor smart enough to be a doctor would bail to the US the second they finished laughing at that salary offer.

So while I don’t know any doctors well enough to ask their salary, I’m pretty sure they make more than 100k/year. 200k/year after expenses would seem like a minimum.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[GTS Jeff]

Originally posted by BigMass
There's no way a doctor in Calgary is making 100k. Why? Because its asinine, and any doctor smart enough to be a doctor would bail to the US the second they finished laughing at that salary offer.

So while I don’t know any doctors well enough to ask their salary, I’m pretty sure they make more than 100k/year. 200k/year after expenses would seem like a minimum. So you basically made a post, then said you have no idea what you're talking about. Good job.


Originally posted by BigMass
If there is a doctor here making 100k/year all I have to ask you is, why? Not everyone is in it for the money.

[BigMass]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff
So you basically made a post, then said you have no idea what you're talking about. Good job.



you can make assumptions based on common sense. 100k/year for going through med school and going into massive debt is not common sense. At least not in my mind. I'm glad if it adds up for you.

[msommers]

Originally posted by BigMass
So while I don’t know any doctors well enough to ask their salary, I’m pretty sure they make more than 100k/year



Originally posted by BigMass
you can make assumptions based on common sense. 100k/year for going through med school and going into massive debt is not common sense. At least not in my mind. I'm glad if it adds up for you.

So you're trying to make an arguement, based on assumptions and common sense, when you admit you don't know first hand? Is your arguement the longer you go to school, the more money you make?

[Tik-Tok]

For the people who think they make TONS of money... do you maybe... possibly... think that perhaps they AREN'T in it for the $$$... that MAYBE they got into medicine to actually HELP people? *GASP*! Shocking, I know!

[teg_boya]

^^ now now thinking like that got bush into the white house for not one term... but two!

[BigMass]

Originally posted by Tik-Tok
For the people who think they make TONS of money... do you maybe... possibly... think that perhaps they AREN'T in it for the $$$... that MAYBE they got into medicine to actually HELP people? *GASP*! Shocking, I know!

Awesome, then maybe they’ll take 50k/year if that’s the case. Why be so naïve. We’re talking about reality not some fantasy land where everyone works for the love of their job. If that’s the case then doctors should be willing to work for a living wage only. That’s not the way reality works.

[xrayvsn]

Originally posted by whodiman
Back in 2001, if you were a doctor who worked in somebody else's clinic (and there are lots of these) you could be reporting an income as low as 110k as i have seen this reported on an income tax return. if you own your own clinic you obviously make quite a bit more. Now mind you both doctors who work for clinics and own their own clinics report an income lower than it probably should be (ie car expenses...even if its their son that drives the car all the time) as they claim a lot of questionable expenses...but then again lots of other people who own their own businesses do too. There is at least one other person here that works or worked for CRA and they have probably audited a doctor before and can probably verify this information.

Did you read the link I posted? That $200k is TOTAL billings from Alberta Health and Wellness, not what they claim as personal income. There isn't a magical well that they then make additional income and billings above and beyond what AHW pays.


Originally posted by BigMass
There's no way a doctor in Calgary is making 100k. Why? Because its asinine, and any doctor smart enough to be a doctor would bail to the US the second they finished laughing at that salary offer.

So while I don’t know any doctors well enough to ask their salary, I’m pretty sure they make more than 100k/year. 200k/year after expenses would seem like a minimum.

If there is a doctor here making 100k/year all I have to ask you is, why?

It is a good thing that most doctors serving Calgary don't have your attitude, or else our physician crisis would be even worse than it is. I would argue that family doctors in Calgary make LESS personal income because of the relatively elevated cost of office space and skilled front desk and support staff. Overheads are the highest here, there is no way around that.

[D. Dub]

Originally posted by msommers

They do it because they truly have a passion for medicine and genuinely want to help people. .

and they should be rewarded for it.....

[D. Dub]

Originally posted by badlivertt


cutting up redtape for foreign grads is a good start (although automatically dropping them out of the US match with a canada hit is horseshit)... but that does little to keep them here long-term after their training is completed. at the end of the training, many residents/fellows are thinking exactly what xrayvsn mentioned about the realities of life/practice... and then you look at greener pastures elsewhere.

the quoted figure of 200 gross sounds low... i wonder if that takes the semi-retired (2 days a week and 2 months vacation) gps into account? either way... gps should be paid significantly more... the stupid overhead in this city justifies it.

Bringing in foreign Doctors who are willing to take less money is not the way to do it. Why punish our current doctors by glutting the market??



What's really bullshit is that a Doctor has their billing based on set government standards but their business is at the mercy of, and unprotected from, the fluctuations of the free market. In Calgary many doctors have seen leases etc go up 50 or 100% and they can't raise their billing to compensate. Their support staff salaries have also gone up as have other costs. How is that fair????


As far as the $200K gross

Doctor's only make about $30 gross approx. per office visit with 40-50% overhead margins (leasing, staff costs, supplies, etc etc etc) -- you do the math.

Over 40 doctor's closed their practices in Calgary last year to become hospitalists or wage workers in walk in Medi-centre type places.

BTW.... this info is right from the frontline -- my wife is an underpaid and overworked GP.

[mdeluxe]

they make enough, too roll in a pile of money before they go to bed. :zzz:

[bashir26]

Originally posted by GTS Jeff


You have a pretty low opinion of GPs. Do you really think that all they do is tell people they have colds? Do you really think that they are somehow inferior to specialists? If anything, GPs need to know a lot more about a more broad spectrum of health care than specialists. The GPs are the ones that treat patients - and quite often in fact, it's the specialists who are accussed of treating cases rather people, simply because the repetitive and focused nature of their work puts them in that direction.

But what really gets to me is how you think GPs aren't underpaid. As we've already established, the typical GP makes just over 100k. What does he/she have to do to make this money:

1. spend about 4 years working hard and studying their balls off throughout undergrad to maintain that 3.8GPA, all the while spending what little free time they have left volunteering for dumb shit, shadowing, and schmoozing with people in the profession.

2. Go through med school. 2 years of intensive preclinical lecture where ALL your time basically goes towards either being at school from 8-5 or studying from 5-sleep. The sheer amount of knowledge you acquire is astronomical; one med school final exam is equivalent to like 10 undergrad exams - I'm not exaggerating. Then you spend another 2 years actually seeing patients. This is an even more stressful time since you are now seeing patients for the first time and you don't want to fuck things up, so you spend countless hours so you don't look like a noob in front of the patient. You also have to compete against all the other hardcore med students for good residency spots. Oh, and did I mention this? Since you're doing all this, you'll have no time to work, so you build up a huge debt load greater than $100k at a minimum. Not exactly a walk in the park - just ask nismodrifter...

3. After all that, you get to be a resident. If you're going into Family Medicine, it's a 2 year residency...and it's usually more for the other ones. During your residency, you are the bitch of the more senior docs at the hospital. They will bend you over and make you work the shitty shifts, long hours, AND you still won't know wtf you're doing, so you'll still be spending tons of time boning up on shit. You'll make about $40k/year while doing this, enough to support yourself (but not your family) and definitely not enough to pay off that $100k loan. In fact, that loan is now accumulating interest like mad too.

4. So finally after 10 years of hell, you are now a working GP somewhere. Congrats. Now you get to work long hours still, possibly be on call still, and with your $100k salary, you get to deal with paying off your student loans, car loans, mortgage, etc...meaning you realistically have to work hard for another 10 years before you are really in the clear and can start making money to save.

So that totals up to 20 years of a crummy life - all for $100k. Now consider that you can just go to SAIT straight out of high school, spend a couple years learning to weld, and be making that same $100k/year. Are you still going to tell me that GPs don't deserve to make more? What a fucking slap in the face to the people who have devoted practically their whole lives to this shit. :rolleyes:
Best post in this thread. Kudos to you jeff

[D. Dub]

^^^^

X 100

That was a great post GTSJeff.

[Carlton]

I'm surprised JAYMEZ hasn't replied to this thread, his paps is a doctor!

[badlivertt]

Originally posted by D. Dub


Bringing in foreign Doctors who are willing to take less money is not the way to do it. Why punish our current doctors by glutting the market??



No dude, you misunderstood what i was saying.

I wasn't suggesting this at all. nismodrifter made a good point on the slowly evolving rules that might, some distant day, help reverse the braindrain.

firstly, "foreign grad" is not necessarily the same as "foreign doctor". There are quite a few Canadians who are "foreign grads" that have trouble coming back home because of the red tape. This is a problem. So many highly qualified foreign grads (and foreign docs too) don't mind taking a pay cut to practice Canadian-style... but the system makes you jump through so many hoops that it often isn't worthwhile.

Docs who are willing to take less don't exist here. Billing an 03.04 visit code is gunna pay every doc the same. It's the number of times you bill it that makes the difference in your paycheque.

[D. Dub]

^^^^

However if foreign Docs/grads are willing to take less then there is less pressure for the government to increase the billing rates and the situation does not get any better for the underpaid and overworked family docs.

[badlivertt]

Originally posted by xrayvsn Overheads are the highest here, there is no way around that. [/B]

!!!!!!!

Please don't get me started.

[badlivertt]

Originally posted by D. Dub
^^^^

However if foreign Docs/grads are willing to take less then there is less pressure for the government to increase the billing rates and the situation does not get any better for the underpaid and overworked family docs.


They can't take less. There is only 1 fee schedule... there's some clause in the CHA that enforces this.

I guess you're right in that the current crisis situation really puts the pressure on the government to increase the dollar values associated with each billing code... but for the sake of patient care, quality of life for docs (some people can't even find coverage to take a week off)... you can prolly add another hundred GPs in Alberta and still be in a crisis situation right now.

[D. Dub]

Originally posted by badlivertt



They can't take less. There is only 1 fee schedule... there's some clause in the CHA that enforces this.

I guess you're right in that the current crisis situation really puts the pressure on the government to increase the dollar values associated with each billing code... but for the sake of patient care, quality of life for docs (some people can't even find coverage to take a week off)... you can prolly add another hundred GPs in Alberta and still be in a crisis situation right now.

Sorry I wasn't clear, I meant less in terms of future billing and not getting an increase.

That's a good point about the shortage. There is a critical family doc shortage across Canada, not just Alberta. U R right, fixing the shortage is probably the first priority in terms of patient care.

My wife used to do rural locums and those poor rural doctors are overworked, underpaid and don't get nearly enough time off.

[Gondi Stylez]

Originally posted by badlivertt


!!!!!!!

Please don't get me started.

WTF is that supposed to mean? Do you run/own a clinic? Are you in the medical field? I didn't think so...

The vast majority of people in this thread have no fucking idea what it takes to become a doctor so why not listen to the few individuals with firs hand experience.

At the rate this thread is going garbage collectors should make $10 million a year and physicians should make $30K. Douchebags...

[badlivertt]

Originally posted by Gondi Stylez


WTF is that supposed to mean? Do you run/own a clinic? Are you in the medical field? I didn't think so...



Yes.

I'm likely quite a bit older than most of you here... hell, i think i've got a couple months on rage2 even.

[88jbody]

It doesn't matter the business wage payout, lease, utilities, and all cost in operating any type of business have gone up

the difference being most others can adjust the price accordingly the GP's can't they can only bill what they are allowed to.

every one else just increases their price to make up for it.

any one who thinks a doctor only needs to make 100k/year or so is clearly has not spent 7 years of post secondary to get a job.

when you can make 100k on the patch without finishing high school I would think that wage would be way too low for someone with 7 or more years of school.