BMW's M3 Double Clutch Transmission

[SilverRex]

I noticed you can now get the Double Clutch Transmission options on M3 models.

Has anyone driven these? How are these compare to BMW's SMG or are they the same?

Difficult to convince the wife to accept a 2 door M3 coupe and Manual when you have a non stick driving wife and 15 month old.

But hey, now I might have a case for the M3 Sedan lol

:)

[rage2]

Haven't driven it (not really out yet). It's a lot smoother than the SMG, since it's a DSG style tranny. In auto mode it feels exactly like an automatic. In manual mode, it does perfect shifts, without a clutch. Best of both worlds.

[SilverRex]

^^^

ok, call me stupid since obviously I've never driven a SMG, but isnt that what the SMG was? Auto and Manual without clutch?

[schocker]

All the things I have read about it have been good. SMG was a good system, then SMG II was better and now M-DCT is even better than that with its DSG style. Would be better for your in town driving, and just as quick.

[rage2]

Originally posted by SilverRex
^^^

ok, call me stupid since obviously I've never driven a SMG, but isnt that what the SMG was? Auto and Manual without clutch?
Yes, but it works a lot different. SMG == 1 clutch, DSG == 2 clutches. To the driver it feels a lot different too.

http://forums.beyond.ca/showthread.php?s=&postid=2376245#post2376245


Originally posted by rage2
The DSG is definately more wife/gf friendly. In D and S "auto" modes, it feels 95% like an automatic. It even simulates an auto by moving the car forward when you're off the brakes. SMG auto mode is all over the place. It's like riding with an asian driver learning how drive stick for the first time... till you get used to it. I never use auto mode on the SMG, I use auto mode on the DSG 50% of the time.

The SMG requires more driver involvement to be smooth. You have to heel toe without a clutch to be smooth on downshifts. The DSG is perfect everytime. You choose a gear and it'll match revs perfectly regardless if you're on or off the throttle or brakes. I've never been able to trick it into fucking up yet. There's a good learning curve to figure out how to completely make use of SMG. I JUST figured out how to launch at full throttle without dropping the clutch (with DSC off) 2 weeks ago lol.

Throttle response is the same for both SMG and DSG while in gear. It's not like an auto with TQ converter w/lockup, where you can feel a bit of drivetrain slack going on and off the throttle. It feels exactly like a Manual car. The SMG feels more like a MT just because of how rough around the edges it is. The DSG is so perfect and smooth, that it doesn't really feel like a manual. It would be impossible to find a human that can shift a manual as smooth and as perfect as a DSG just because it has 2 clutches.

The launch control is better in the SMG than the DSG. The DSG after you release the brakes, seems like it takes a random amount of time before it drops/slips the clutch. Impossible to get a .500 on the dragstrip. SMG, you can choose between 2 launch profiles... clutch slip vs clutch drop. And when you say go, it goes instantly, much easier to control exactly when it launches.

BMW moved to a dual clutch DSG style tranny for the new M3. I can see why.
That was a comparison of the DSG in my GTI vs the SMG in my M3. The M-DCT M3 will act a lot different, my guess is it wont accelerate when you let off the brakes like an auto, and launch control will be implemented a lot better than the GTI DSG version.

[schocker]

Here is a link with information on the transmission
Car&Driver Article (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high_performance/bmw_performance_m_power/2008_bmw_m3_with_m_dct_double_clutch_transmission_short_take_road_test)

[rage2]

Interesting, the M-DCT in the M3 has a higher 1st gear, and shorter gears for the rest. The higher first gear handicaps it's off the line acceleration, so it accelerates the exact same as the MT cars.

Every other MT vs DSG comparison, the DSG's came out on top.

[schocker]

Hmm. I didnt know that. It is still a quick transmission but that is an odd choice on their part. Still fast enough I suppose, maybe a revised gear scheme will be implimented eventually. But for the m3, since you are a family man, i see no problem with the E90 M3 w/DCT.HERE (http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_news/4270362.html) is a read on the new PDK 7spd dsg from porsche for refrence. Sounds quite promising.

[me&you]

Originally posted by schocker
All the things I have read about it have been good. SMG was a good system, then SMG II was better and now M-DCT is even better than that with its DSG style. Would be better for your in town driving, and just as quick.

SMG I was terrible, SMG II was barely tolerable and SMG III is OK...

I can't wait for DSG to rule the world!

[Supa Dexta]

If I'm remembering right, you have very little money coming in, but I'll give credit, run a good budget.. Why on earth would you get a very unpractical car for your life, for a car that you don't need? Who are you trying to keep up with/ impress? Thats all calgary is these days, people pretending to themselves and others they can roll with the big boys.. :dunno: I say get a car that makes sense for you, not one that you *think* others will think more of you because of..

[schocker]

Originally posted by me&you


SMG I was terrible, SMG was barely tolerable and SMG III is OK...

I can't wait for DSG to rule the world!
I wouldnt say it was terrible. It was a decent system for getting the power down, shifted fairly well, but Dual Clutch>Single Clutch even thoug I have only driven SMG and not DSG.

[benyl]

Originally posted by Supa Dexta
If I'm remembering right, you have very little money coming in, but I'll give credit, run a good budget.. Why on earth would you get a very unpractical car for your life, for a car that you don't need? Who are you trying to keep up with/ impress? Thats all calgary is these days, people pretending to themselves and others they can roll with the big boys.. :dunno: I say get a car that makes sense for you, not one that you *think* others will think more of you because of..

I was thinking the same thing...

Even the E90 M3 will be pushing $85K with at least $1K / month payments for a lease.

[SilverRex]

Originally posted by Supa Dexta
If I'm remembering right, you have very little money coming in, but I'll give credit, run a good budget.. Why on earth would you get a very unpractical car for your life, for a car that you don't need? Who are you trying to keep up with/ impress? Thats all calgary is these days, people pretending to themselves and others they can roll with the big boys.. :dunno: I say get a car that makes sense for you, not one that you *think* others will think more of you because of..

first off, this is a topic about BMW's double clutch offering,
second. if you were smart you would notice I didnt title the thread should I buy a M3, the wife example is simply a side joke to lighten up the thread.

its no different than starting a thread about escorts vs hookers. Any saying "I would pick escort even though pricy at least I can find an escort that practice safer sex and reduce the chance I end up ruining my family because I bought home a STD.

Then you come at me saying your a family man, why in the world would you do either? can you afford to do so. But you see I was more curious about what other thinks, the wife example is simply joke aside. Saying I can do it does not imply I will do it. Neverless it is always an entertaining thought. else why do we have forums?

and lastly, you are assuming I'm trying to pretend to keep up with the high rollers. I tell you how do you know I am not? M3 if I ever had the chance is and will forever be a dream car in my books. And funny thing is, I could afford it, but should I max out all my credits to do so? well that depends if anyone can convince me I only have 6 months or 60 years to live.

Now lets get back to topic shall we :nut:

[heavyD]

Originally posted by SilverRex
and lastly, you are assuming I'm trying to pretend to keep up with the high rollers. I tell you how do you know I am not? M3 if I ever had the chance is and will forever be a dream car in my books. And funny thing is, I could afford it, but should I max out all my credits to do so?

Problem is that 1/3 to 1/2 of the bling vehicles are paid for this way. Some people here can afford it, some have rich parents, and some can't afford it but still do. In fact I'm willing to bet that you have at least entertained the idea. It's a sweet car but at the end of the day it's just a car and not worth restricting your income to the point where you can barely afford the gas in which to run the car.

[me&you]

But again, this is a car forum, not a "babysit-someone-elses-finances-for-them-because-I-am-hollier-than-thou" forum.

Whether SilverRex can afford 5 M3s or not even the gas for one, shouldn't matter.

Let's talk DSG, shall we?

[rage2]

DSG rocks.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by me&you
But again, this is a car forum, not a "babysit-someone-elses-finances-for-them-because-I-am-hollier-than-thou" forum.

Whether SilverRex can afford 5 M3s or not even the gas for one, shouldn't matter.

Let's talk DSG, shall we?

Rich parents?:rolleyes:

[heavyD]

Originally posted by rage2
DSG rocks.

Are you on VW/Audi comission?:rofl: :rofl:

[rage2]

I wish I was. So many people buy GTI's now!

It only took 1 track day to fall in love with that transmission.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by rage2
I wish I was. So many people buy GTI's now!

It only took 1 track day to fall in love with that transmission.

What about the rest of the car? I'm interested in how a DSG equipped car will respond to mods such as increase boost.

[kenny]

You should ask for a referral fee if you aren't already getting one.

[schocker]

Originally posted by rage2
I wish I was. So many people buy GTI's now!

It only took 1 track day to fall in love with that transmission.
I need to go to vw and try this so called dsg sometime.
With the new bumper laws though, it is now MKV R32 time.
DSG + AWD + VR6= :clap:

[SilverRex]

Originally posted by rage2
I wish I was. So many people buy GTI's now!

It only took 1 track day to fall in love with that transmission.

VW GTI, is it poor mans M3? transmission wise :eek:

[me&you]

Originally posted by heavyD


Rich parents?:rolleyes:

And again, so what if that's the case?

As Rage said, DSG rocks! I can't wait for all the sequentials to convert.

[redline]

Originally posted by rage2
Haven't driven it (not really out yet). It's a lot smoother than the SMG, since it's a DSG style tranny. In auto mode it feels exactly like an automatic. In manual mode, it does perfect shifts, without a clutch. Best of both worlds.

There should be aleast two DSG M3s in calgary now. there first canadian orders went in in early april

[max_boost]

SilverRex is a fan of cars and technology. There are so many hot cars out there that I would love to get my hands on. I'm sure we are all like that. We should leave the speculation of what he can afford out of the postings.

rage2 is the #1 DSG fan. I'm already converted. Just trying to figure which car I want to unload in favor of it! :burnout:

[redline]

Originally posted by schocker

I need to go to vw and try this so called dsg sometime.
With the new bumper laws though, it is now MKV R32 time.
DSG + AWD + VR6= :clap:

I tried Rage2 DSG GTI out and was nice and smooth. Way smoother then my SMG.

[redline]

Originally posted by rage2
DSG rocks.

yeeap i will never buy another car without it or SMG

[rage2]

Originally posted by heavyD
What about the rest of the car? I'm interested in how a DSG equipped car will respond to mods such as increase boost.
Its just a transmission. I've driven a REVO stage 1 GTI and it's fast as hell, and with perfect shifts.


Originally posted by SilverRex
VW GTI, is it poor mans M3? transmission wise :eek:
I would take a DSG GTI over a stock E46 M3 anyday.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by schocker

I need to go to vw and try this so called dsg sometime.
With the new bumper laws though, it is now MKV R32 time.
DSG + AWD + VR6= :clap:

You realize the same car has been in Canada for years? A3 Quattro. It's alright but not as fast as you might think.

[Supa Dexta]

Originally posted by SilverRex


first off, this is a topic about BMW's double clutch offering,
second...blah blah blah...

Easy there big guy.. I was just trying to be a litle voice of reason.. like I said *if I remember right*, which it seems I do, I also remember you saying you made like 30 or 40k a yr, and were raising a family on it. Congrats, but you have to see my point if that is what you make. Looking at a car that would take 2 full yrs of income (If you didn't get taxed or spend a dime on anything else), let alone the up keep, gas and insurance... Again I'm not trying to put you down, You prob run one of the best budgets mentioned in that old thread, or at least did the most with it.

.. so carry on..

[schocker]

Originally posted by heavyD


You realize the same car has been in Canada for years? A3 Quattro. It's alright but not as fast as you might think.
wow i am stupid today. i forgot about the a3. but the r32 is still nice, a bit lighter and more performance oriented and less expensive.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by schocker

wow i am stupid today. i forgot about the a3. but the r32 is still nice, a bit lighter and more performance oriented and less expensive.

I'm not 100% on the weight and suspension differences but the A3 Quattro is actually has a pretty firm ride. The V6/DSG doesn't actually feel much faster than the 2.0/DSG combination but part of that is additional weight for AWD and the other is that the 2.0L is a pretty stout engine in its own right.

[schocker]

yah i checked and the R32 is about 100lbs less. I dont really know what differences there are between them, engine is esentially the same, same tranny, different awd systems though iirc, but it is a large permium for awd v6 over the fwd i4 only gaining 50hp.

[rage2]

The only reason you would want a R32 in Calgary is to turbo it. The 2 cars perform the same at our elevation (comparing the A3 quattro). There's not enough power to need AWD in that car. The 2.0T is a lot cheaper to mod, but you can get 700+hp kits for the R32.

[schocker]

ah, that makes sense then. the kits for those are pretty pricey too compared to the cost of the car so it wouldnt really be worth it unless you really wanted it. you can supercharge it for a bit more power for not to much $$$, but the gains arnt that much, so gti ftw.

[kenny]

Originally posted by rage2
I would take a DSG GTI over a stock E46 M3 anyday.

Even an E46 M3 Cab? :D

[rage2]

Originally posted by kenny
Even an E46 M3 Cab? :D
Yep. I got bored of my M3 cab so fast. Thats why she's turbo'd now.

[Destinova403]

I hope we get the A1 when it comes out in 2010... 1.4l engine FWD with the DSG... its going to be like a mini GTI with an Audi badge.

[Inzane]

Originally posted by me&you
As Rage said, DSG rocks! I can't wait for all the sequentials to convert.


Originally posted by max_boost
rage2 is the #1 DSG fan. I'm already converted.


Originally posted by rage2
I would take a DSG GTI over a stock E46 M3 anyday.

What is it with all you guys and this automatic loving? Whatever happened to the love of a good old fashion stick shift? :dunno:

Are you guys all vegan metrosexuals as well? :poosie:

[rage2]

Originally posted by Inzane
What is it with all you guys and this automatic loving? Whatever happened to the love of a good old fashion stick shift? :dunno:
Next time you're in town, I'll show you.

[Inzane]

Originally posted by rage2
Next time you're in town, I'll show you.

I might just take you up on that.

I'm not planning to buy my new daily driver (G35 sedan, or E90 3-series, or....something from Audi or M-B, etc.) until next spring so that's lots of time to try to convince me.

[rage2]

I just need 1 corner to show you.

[rc2002]

^ I'm a believer after riding in your car at the track. I'm sold on DSG now.

[FiveFreshFish]

I test-drove both the DSG and manual GTI.

DSG is the way to go.

[max_boost]

Originally posted by Inzane






What is it with all you guys and this automatic loving? Whatever happened to the love of a good old fashion stick shift? :dunno:

Are you guys all vegan metrosexuals as well? :poosie:

hahaha

Combination of getting lazy/older, a couple money shifts in the past and just always having to use the excuse 'driver ability'. With DSG, there are no excuses, well, in a straight line at least. :rofl: :burnout:

[redline]

Originally posted by heavyD


You realize the same car has been in Canada for years? A3 Quattro. It's alright but not as fast as you might think.

does that car have the vr6 and DSG?

[rage2]

Originally posted by redline
does that car have the vr6 and DSG?
Yep! Audi has a weird naming scheme for their transmissions.

S-Tronic == DSG
R-Tronic == SMG (in the R8)

[FiveFreshFish]

Why didn't Audi use a DSG-type transmission in the R8?

[rage2]

Because current generation DSG's have a torque limit. The clutches are within the transmission and has to last the lifetime of the transmission, so they're really small.

This is the same reason why Porsche will only be releasing their DSG in the Carerra. The turbos won't get it until they make the clutches stronger.

For the GTI, the clutches are good up to APR/Revo Stage 2, which is about 270hp. The Stage 3 big turbo kits doesn't support DSG at all. HPA has a clutch upgrade kit though, and their R32/A3 Quattros can push out 650hp or something through DSG. VF has a 400hp big turbo kit for the 2.0T's which support DSG, but no clue how long that lasts.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by rage2
Because current generation DSG's have a torque limit. The clutches are within the transmission and has to last the lifetime of the transmission, so they're really small.

This is the same reason why Porsche will only be releasing their DSG in the Carerra. The turbos won't get it until they make the clutches stronger.

For the GTI, the clutches are good up to APR/Revo Stage 2, which is about 270hp. The Stage 3 big turbo kits doesn't support DSG at all. HPA has a clutch upgrade kit though, and their R32/A3 Quattros can push out 650hp or something through DSG. VF has a 400hp big turbo kit for the 2.0T's which support DSG, but no clue how long that lasts.

You guys and your DSG. The TC-SST is the best of the twin clutch transmissions but 330 whp is the most I've heard they can reliably handle as tested in Japan but only time will tell how long they will last at higher than stock power.

[rage2]

Originally posted by heavyD
You guys and your DSG. The TC-SST is the best of the twin clutch transmissions but 330 whp is the most I've heard they can reliably handle as tested in Japan but only time will tell how long they will last at higher than stock power.
How is the TC-SST any different than the other ones? They all work on the same principal.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by rage2

How is the TC-SST any different than the other ones? They all work on the same principal.

In full automatic sport mode it actually shifts faster than you can with the paddles and calculates when to shift perfectly so the driver basically holds on the the wheel and doesn't have to worry about shifting enabling the fastest track times in full auto. Most publications have stated that it's the best of the dual clutch transmissions as well.

A good article stating the differences between the Borg Warner Tranny:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=2&article_id=6388

Even though the EVO GSR is faster in a straight line, the MR is faster around the track in full auto by an Indy driver:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/0308_cover_mitsuVwrx_lapping.pdf

Another comparison stating the superiority of the TC-SST:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=126453?tid=edmunds.il.home.photopanel..1.*

I'm surprised a driver like you wouldn't be interested in a car with a near perfect transmission and handling. Nothing can touch it for the price.

[kenny]

Originally posted by heavyD


In full automatic sport mode it actually shifts faster than you can with the paddles and calculates when to shift perfectly so the driver basically holds on the the wheel and doesn't have to worry about shifting enabling the fastest track times in full auto. Most publications have stated that it's the best of the dual clutch transmissions as well.

A good article stating the differences between the Borg Warner Tranny:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=2&article_id=6388

Even though the EVO GSR is faster in a straight line, the MR is faster around the track in full auto by an Indy driver:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/0308_cover_mitsuVwrx_lapping.pdf

Another comparison stating the superiority of the TC-SST:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=126453?tid=edmunds.il.home.photopanel..1.*

I'm surprised a driver like you wouldn't be interested in a car with a near perfect transmission and handling. Nothing can touch it for the price.

None of the examples you provided compares the TC-SST vs. DSG. The two are essentially the same thing, twin clutch auto shifting manuals. DSG has an automatic mode that does not require hitting a paddle to shift as well.

In full automatic mode DSG shifts much faster than you can on a TC-SST transmission using paddles and calculates when to shift perfectly so the driver basically holds on the the wheel and doesn't have to worry about shifting enabling the fastest track times in full auto. ;)

[kenny]

Originally posted by rage2
Because current generation DSG's have a torque limit. The clutches are within the transmission and has to last the lifetime of the transmission, so they're really small.


I wonder what the limit of the 7 Speed DSG is. I think that system uses larger dry clutches.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by kenny


None of the examples you provided compares the TC-SST vs. DSG. The two are essentially the same thing, twin clutch auto shifting manuals. DSG has an automatic mode that does not require hitting a paddle to shift as well.

That's like saying a 6 speen manual tranny in car a) is the same as car b). Mechanically yes they are but some are simply better than others. You are assuming that in full auto mode the DSG will know the precise time to downshift heading into a corner and upshift out. The TC-SST does but I don't believe the DSG does the thinking like a driver. If you really read the articles you would have picked up that no other twin clutch transmission has a full automatic mode that shifts faster than the driver using the paddles except the TC-SST.

I know it's all about image to most hence the love for MB and BMW etc but I find it curious that so many Asians have a difficult time believing that a Japanese company can do something better than a German one?:dunno:

[schocker]

Originally posted by kenny


I wonder what the limit of the 7 Speed DSG is. I think that system uses larger dry clutches.
I think it is still fairly low as VW is using it on cars like the polo.
On a side note, the veyron does have a 7spd dsg but i think it is more of a modified 6 without dry clutches as it was not a borg warner transmission.

[rage2]

Originally posted by heavyD
That's like saying a 6 speen manual tranny in car a) is the same as car b). Mechanically yes they are but some are simply better than others. You are assuming that in full auto mode the DSG will know the precise time to downshift heading into a corner and upshift out. The TC-SST does but I don't believe the DSG does the thinking like a driver. If you really read the articles you would have picked up that no other twin clutch transmission has a full automatic mode that shifts faster than the driver using the paddles except the TC-SST.

I know it's all about image to most hence the love for MB and BMW etc but I find it curious that so many Asians have a difficult time believing that a Japanese company can do something better than a German one?:dunno:
If you wanna get technical, since I've driven the DSG at the track...

The DSG will upshift automatically at the BEST time. You can't get faster than that, period. I don't use the upshift paddle until the cooldown lap, where I'm upshifting a lot earlier to cool things down.

Downshifts will not unless you're 100% throttle + kickdown, but IMO this is an advantage. It allows you to choose what gear you want to stay in for certain corners. There is 1 corner that's more advantageous to stay in a lower gear for balance, and WILL give you slightly more time at race city, and if the Mitsu auto software does this, it's equal to the DSG. Even if a corner like this doesn't exist and lower gear is optimal, as long as you're in the right gear, you're in good shape (most that matters really is what gear you're in at the apex). Timing for upshifts is a hell of a lot more important than downshifts. Bad upshift time == less acceleration. Bad downshift time == no difference in braking performance.

I haven't tried the BMW system, can't comment. It's not a japanese vs german discussion, it's the fact that all DSG trannys are pretty much the same today, it's just how it's implemented in software.

Oh and kenny, the BMW system uses wet clutches. No current production system uses dry clutches yet.

[rage2]

Originally posted by heavyD
I'm surprised a driver like you wouldn't be interested in a car with a near perfect transmission and handling. Nothing can touch it for the price.
Oh and the reason? It wasn't available. I was taking my M3 out of commission for the turbo kit, and I needed a car immediately. That's why it took me a day of shopping to buy that GTI. If there was an EVO X MR available for me to test drive that day, I would've probably ended up with it. Ask benyl, I've been asking him for his EVO X deposit spot!

[vtec4life]

Originally posted by Inzane






What is it with all you guys and this automatic loving? Whatever happened to the love of a good old fashion stick shift? :dunno:

Are you guys all vegan metrosexuals as well? :poosie:


nice lol:rofl:

[benyl]

I didn't get the EVO X even though it showed up last week.

I think it is overpriced here in Canada.

I may however bring one up once RIV updates their list.

HeavyD is starting to sound like a Mitsu fanboy... hahaha

[Redlyne_mr2]

How does the dsg compare to the tranmission in the ISF?

[benyl]

The tranny in the IS-F still has a torque converter.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by rage2

Oh and the reason? It wasn't available. I was taking my M3 out of commission for the turbo kit, and I needed a car immediately. That's why it took me a day of shopping to buy that GTI. If there was an EVO X MR available for me to test drive that day, I would've probably ended up with it. Ask benyl, I've been asking him for his EVO X deposit spot!

Man I whish I could be a baller. ;) I agree with benyl that I'm not going to pay $50K for a vehicle that retails for $10K less in the US so Mitsu Canada either has to correct their pricing or they won't get my business as I just don't have the disposable income to throw away.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by benyl
I didn't get the EVO X even though it showed up last week.

I think it is overpriced here in Canada.

I may however bring one up once RIV updates their list.

HeavyD is starting to sound like a Mitsu fanboy... hahaha

I am a DSM fanboy ha ha. I may get an IX but I really wanted the twin clutch auto so I'll just have to wait and see how all these new bumper laws play out and what's going to be the most cost effective option. Besides now that I've upgraded the suspension, turbo, etc on the MR2 I'm actually having so much fun with it that I'm in no hurry at all to change vehicles or upgrade. It's so well built it's a shame that Toyota bailed out of making enthusiast cars.:(

[rage2]

Originally posted by heavyD
Man I whish I could be a baller. ;)
Baller? Not really.... Actually, I was pretty upset that 2 days after getting the GTI delivered, the C63 pricing was announced and it was CHEAP. I would've waited for that, rented a car or something while the turbo was being done. C63 for a winter car, now that would be baller! :rofl:

[benyl]

Originally posted by rage2

C63 for a winter car, now that would be baller! :rofl:

So tempting...

[max_boost]

Originally posted by benyl
The tranny in the IS-F still has a torque converter. Meaning there is a delay to the transfer of power when you punch it?

So DSG > 7 speed MB & 8 speed Lexus?