GT-R's true HP?

[rage2]

heavyD will like this one...

So C&D had 5 GT-R's so far... 4 pre production, and 1 production spec.

Coles Notes:
- 1st car was really fast.
- 2nd and 3rd cars were a lot slower.
- heavyD says 1st car is cranked up. GT-R is gonna be a lot slower
- 4th car was as fast as 1st car
- 5th car (the production one) as fast as 4th car (actually 5whp more at 420whp on mustang dyno).

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/columns/c_d_staff/larry_webster/what_is_the_gt_r_s_real_horsepower_column?cid=259

[badatusrnames]

Interesting... my assumption was that they would detune the production cars in deference to the longevity of the turbos, transmission, etc - saving Nissan money on warranty work.

Perhaps they are having quality control/consistency difficulties at the factory?

[Xtrema]

The article sound negative even when Nissan is delivering more than advertised?

[Eleanor]

Nissan under-rating their halo car? No wai! Let me guess, they put a huge yellow boost restrictor under the hood as well :D

[Eleanor]

Originally posted by Xtrema
The article sound negative even when Nissan is delivering more than advertised?
Cause they're liars because the best car ever made is and always will be the M3

[Destinova403]

Originally posted by Eleanor

Cause they're liars because the best car ever made is and always will be the M3

oh man... i love C&D

the GTR is an amazing car, but for some reason that i cant put my finger on... i dont like it. :dunno:. i think there needs to be more tests made on more cars... anyone willing to donate their GTR to run a dyno?

[AzNxHyDrA]

Originally posted by Destinova403


oh man... i love C&D

the GTR is an amazing car, but for some reason that i cant put my finger on... i dont like it. :dunno:. i think there needs to be more tests made on more cars... anyone willing to donate their GTR to run a dyno?

I agree, Tunerworks got their hands on a GTR didn't they? They should go dyno theirs for us

[rage2]

As with most turbo cars, dyno's for the GT-R will look ridiculously high at our elevation. The GT-R isn't TW's, it's a friend's. I doubt he wants to take the car apart and strap it on a dyno.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by badatusrnames

Perhaps they are having quality control/consistency difficulties at the factory?

When they had the GT-R on Topgear, Clarkson said each engine was "hand made" so no 2 will ever be the same... kind of confused me, because even if they're put together by individual people, wouldn't all the factory parts/ecu tune be the same?

[Mr_ET]

Originally posted by badatusrnames
Interesting... my assumption was that they would detune the production cars in deference to the longevity of the turbos, transmission, etc - saving Nissan money on warranty work.

Perhaps they are having quality control/consistency difficulties at the factory?

what if all those parts are built to handle 800whp and tq and they detuned to 420whp. No warranty issues and tons of aftermarket potential....


I doubt this engine and any other components are even close to maxed out from the factory.

remember the sr20det, rb26dett....

[Destinova403]

Originally posted by Mr_ET


what if all those parts are built to handle 800whp and tq and they detuned to 420whp. No warranty issues and tons of aftermarket potential....


I doubt this engine and any other components are even close to maxed out from the factory.

remember the sr20det, rb26dett....

its always nice to quote myself... the parts arent built to handle that kind of power. the Engine is already tuned to its peak which is part of the reason nissan is doing everything they can to block modifications.

even the press car was starting to have problems because of the way it was driven... that tranny can only take a couple good launches before its toast.


Originally posted by Destinova403


Nissan actually locked the ECU and tried to make the car un-tunable because the Transmission is unable to take any more power than the car has without significant modification.

essentially... putting a significant amount more power into the car will destroy it... the stock car is already very close to the edge of its capabilities...

please note that (i believe its Mine's) has cracked the ECU and is working on a way to beef up the transmission to make the car tunable, but right now its difficult and expensive to pull more power out of that car.

and as with a lot of other cars, any modification voids the warranty.

EDIT: more details about what nissan is doing to prevent tuning

http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=17579

[heavyD]

Rage I think you have me confused with b_t. This is the only post I have regarding the lower numbers in response to b_t;


Originally posted by heavyD
Yes I've noticed that the 0-60 times that initially were 3.4 seconds are now as slow as 4.2 seconds (which isn't slow by any means). Still for the money the performance is very impressive and it's probably one of the few cars in that performance range that could be used as a daily driver. Plus Nissan may have detuned manufactured cars slightly to err in the side of caution on a newly designed engine (even if it is based on the VQ).

Personally I like the car and the only issue I have with it is the styling which is a bit bland and awkward IMO.:dunno:

[rage2]

haha my bad. That's wrong twice in two days for me, WTF is going on? :rofl:

[badatusrnames]

Originally posted by Mr_ET


what if all those parts are built to handle 800whp and tq and they detuned to 420whp. No warranty issues and tons of aftermarket potential....


I doubt this engine and any other components are even close to maxed out from the factory.

remember the sr20det, rb26dett....

But even if they are built to "handle" 800hp, etc., by running less power, you are always going to save wear on parts... a part is going to fail much quicker if you run it at its design limits versus 50% of what it can ultimately handle.

[Inzane]

Originally posted by Destinova403
the GTR is an amazing car, but for some reason that i cant put my finger on... i dont like it. :dunno:.

Well allow me to put your finger on it for you.... the car is fucking UGLY!! :eek:

[Inzane]

Originally posted by Mr_ET
what if all those parts are built to handle 800whp and tq and they detuned to 420whp. No warranty issues and tons of aftermarket potential....

I doubt this engine and any other components are even close to maxed out from the factory.

remember the sr20det, rb26dett....

Same applies for the VG30DETT. The 300ZXTT was basically a 600bhp capable car detuned to 300bhp.

[C4S]

Well, always, different test, will hv different results.. within +/- 0.2 - 0.3 second is ok ... but not half a second or even 2/3 second ..

I think I have seen GTR test on 0-60mph .. from 3.3 sec to 4.1 sec ?? that is HUGE different! if 3.5-3.7 then I accept it .. just different drivers, and we all know, even same kinf of car, same engine .. could be +/- 10 HP in diff unit.

I found corvette has the same problem .. I saw from 4.4 - 5.0 sec .. but the Z06 is more "stable" mostly between 3.5-3.8 sec ....

When we look at other super car, such as Enzo .. C - GT their test numbers are always the same, within 0.1 sec ...

So.. I guess, is it QC issue? when you pay more .. for Porsche, Ferrari .. they have better QC, and build more "even" cars?

When down to "affordable" fast cars, such as GTR, Corvette, M3 .. AMG .. they dont do as good "QC" ?? :dunno:

[Darkane]

Originally posted by Tik-Tok


When they had the GT-R on Topgear, Clarkson said each engine was "hand made" so no 2 will ever be the same... kind of confused me, because even if they're put together by individual people, wouldn't all the factory parts/ecu tune be the same?

Yeah, see that's the iffy thing. All Modular cobras in the mid 90's were hand built and signed as well.

This doesn't mean so much because all the clearances will still be with in spec.

The one engine that 'could' have a difference in real world is the B18C(R). Each head was hand ported, and I don't know for sure but I've never heard of them bench flowing them at the factory either. That engine can and does produce factory freaky numbers. But some are just normal 1.8L vtec's in terms of power.

[b_t]

Originally posted by rage2
haha my bad. That's wrong twice in two days for me, WTF is going on? :rofl:

I'm not sure. You can't average one post per day for almost 40 years and get everything right :nut:

I still take C&D's article with a grain of salt.. all the cars were given to them by Nissan and they were told to trust them. I'll believe the GTR's numbers when I see a guy with a factory stock one roll onto an AWD dyno and posts up his numbers.

[Grogador]

Originally posted by rage2
I doubt he wants to take the car apart and strap it on a dyno.

Curious... what would need to be 'taken apart' for a dyno run?

< / dyno-noob >

[rage2]

Originally posted by Grogador
Curious... what would need to be 'taken apart' for a dyno run?

&lt; / dyno-noob &gt;
The only AWD dyno in town that I know of is a dynapack. You have to take the wheels off and bolt each wheel to the dyno.

[schocker]

oh noes cobb already has their reflashes out now.

but there does seem to be some trickery in the power

[WBB6]

Here is some numbers/information released by Cobb Tuning. They are still doing some last minute testing but regardless here is some of the preliminary results. Some interesting numbers...

Stage 1 is for a stock vehicle or a vehicle with just a cat-back exhaust. Stage 2 is for a vehicle with high flow cats or cat delete and cat-back exhaust. Must use stock intake.

Stage 1 - 91 Oct - +55HP and +60TQ
Stage 1 - 93 Oct - +63HP and +70TQ
Stage 1 - 97 Ron - +63HP and +70TQ

Stage 2 - 91 Oct - +65HP and +80TQ
Stage 2 - 93 Oct - +70HP and +90TQ
Stage 2 - 97 Ron - +70HP and +90TQ


http://www.cca.cc/nexus/GTRDynoGraphs.jpg


http://www.cca.cc/nexus/cobb_ap_gtr.jpg

[max_boost]

I thought this thread was about Nissan over-stating advertised hp but it's the other way around! haha

So with a Cobb reflash this thing is going to be pushing 600hp!!:eek: :burnout:

[Grogador]

...until you litter your 600hp's tranny down the highway, then spend $xx,xxx on a new drivetrain since you voided your warranty by not having a Nissan-authorized dealer fill your car with Skyrine sauce :thumbsup:

[max_boost]

^^^

haha yeah oh shit....it's one thing on a $30K Subaru to do Cobb Accessport but yeah I don't want to fuck with a $90K car if it isn't authorized.

Cobb is a reputable company though so I can't see shit blowing up. I guess 500hp and 0-60 in 3.3 secs is fast enough anyway right :D

[rage2]

Japanese tuners are already toasting GT-R trannies with 50hp gains. The problem is that the dual clutch tranny has torque limits that are pretty much hit with the stock powerband. The japanese guys are reprogramming the transmission computer now to slow down the shifts so the transmission doesn't grenade with higher power levels.

[962 kid]

Originally posted by rage2
Japanese tuners are already toasting GT-R trannies with 50hp gains. The problem is that the dual clutch tranny has torque limits that are pretty much hit with the stock powerband. The japanese guys are reprogramming the transmission computer now to slow down the shifts so the transmission doesn't grenade with higher power levels.

Just wondering, but where do you find this kinda info?

[heavyD]

Originally posted by rage2
Japanese tuners are already toasting GT-R trannies with 50hp gains. The problem is that the dual clutch tranny has torque limits that are pretty much hit with the stock powerband. The japanese guys are reprogramming the transmission computer now to slow down the shifts so the transmission doesn't grenade with higher power levels.

So to get the big power upgrades the advantages of the twin clutch transmission are rendered useless?

[C4S]

Originally posted by 962 kid


Just wondering, but where do you find this kinda info?

He is the one who toasted it !! :rofl:

[Grogador]

Originally posted by heavyD
So to get the big power upgrades the advantages of the twin clutch transmission are rendered useless?

I imagine the split-second timing of dual-clutching goodness would be thrown off quite a bit by a healthy dose of extra hp/tq. Just need to give it an extra 0.05s or whatever to equalize torque before chewing into itself and you're good to go.

(really I don't even know how a dual-clutch tranny works but that's kinda what it sounds like :bigpimp:

[blownz]

Originally posted by rage2
Japanese tuners are already toasting GT-R trannies with 50hp gains.

If 50 extra hp can do that much damage it doesn't say much for how long they will last at stock hp levels. This might be an expensive car to own once the warranty is gone.

[Super_Geo]

... what are they going to do about the tranny issues with the V-Spec?

[rage2]

Originally posted by 962 kid
Just wondering, but where do you find this kinda info?
I read a lot, and I talk to a lot of friends overseas. Most of the stuff hasn't really been translated, but a few english sites and mags do cover it.

Here's a few that I just googled talking about the weak link.

http://www.themotorreport.com.au/4464/the-flawless-gt-r-has-a-fault/

http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=23260

A lot of the asian car mags talk about the transmission being a weak link. Unfortunately, I can't read chinese or japanese, so my friends overseas keep me up to date haha.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Super_Geo
... what are they going to do about the tranny issues with the V-Spec?
Stronger tranny.

The biggest problem with the dual clutch trannys are the clutch packs. They are quite small, and submerged in oil, compared to a conventional single plate clutch. Very few aftermarket companies make aftermarket DC clutches. The ones that do are very expensive, plus it involves taking the transmission apart. HPA charges $5k I believe for their upgraded DSG clutch package.

Dual clutch transmissions are getting better literally every month. We keep hearing reports of the new boxes being able to handle more and more torque. 2 years ago when DSG started becoming mainstream, they couldn't even put them in diesels because the torque limit was so low on them. Now, M3, GT-R, EVO's are all sporting DC transmissions that can handle more torque.

By the time we see dry clutch DC boxes, we shouldn't have a problem with torque limits on these trannys.

[Inzane]

Originally posted by rage2

Stronger tranny.

The biggest problem with the dual clutch trannys are the clutch packs. They are quite small, and submerged in oil, compared to a conventional single plate clutch. Very few aftermarket companies make aftermarket DC clutches. The ones that do are very expensive, plus it involves taking the transmission apart. HPA charges $5k I believe for their upgraded DSG clutch package.

Dual clutch transmissions are getting better literally every month. We keep hearing reports of the new boxes being able to handle more and more torque. 2 years ago when DSG started becoming mainstream, they couldn't even put them in diesels because the torque limit was so low on them. Now, M3, GT-R, EVO's are all sporting DC transmissions that can handle more torque.

By the time we see dry clutch DC boxes, we shouldn't have a problem with torque limits on these trannys.


Heh.. I figured you'd be all over the GTR like a dirty shirt.

Rage: "It's got an automatic? Perfect!" :rofl:

[rage2]

Originally posted by Inzane
Rage: &quot;It's got an automatic? Perfect!&quot; :rofl:
Damn rights lol! I doubt I will ever own another car with a real automatic or a 6 speed. Dual clutch from here on!

[Fuji]

Originally posted by WBB6
Here is some numbers/information released by Cobb Tuning. They are still doing some last minute testing but regardless here is some of the preliminary results. Some interesting numbers...

Stage 1 is for a stock vehicle or a vehicle with just a cat-back exhaust. Stage 2 is for a vehicle with high flow cats or cat delete and cat-back exhaust. Must use stock intake.

Stage 1 - 91 Oct - +55HP and +60TQ
Stage 1 - 93 Oct - +63HP and +70TQ
Stage 1 - 97 Ron - +63HP and +70TQ

Stage 2 - 91 Oct - +65HP and +80TQ
Stage 2 - 93 Oct - +70HP and +90TQ
Stage 2 - 97 Ron - +70HP and +90TQ


http://www.cca.cc/nexus/GTRDynoGraphs.jpg


http://www.cca.cc/nexus/cobb_ap_gtr.jpg


Cobb's numbers are always inflated and sugar coated imo