Is it that hard to find a decent employee?

[Gasket]

I can't find a "GOOD" person that I can trust. Anyone out there know of a great person who wants a job change? I need someone to assist me in development and implementation of Internet related technologies; focusing on web design, presentation and marketing. What is going on in Alberta? I can't even find a good peson to answer the phones around here. People with barely any skills think they deserve 50K per year!.....AND they are lazy... Am I the only one with this problem? Does anyone want to work anymore?

I need someone who knows:

CGI scripting skills with knowledge using numerous web technologies such as PHP, Perl, JavaScript, Action Script.

It would help if they were artistic, creative, intuitive with some design and commercial art experience. PDF lib knowledge...

Expert level abilities and experience with PHP, HTML, DHTML (CSS, JavaScript, MooTools), CGI (Perl), Flash Integration experience with SOAP, SSI, XML, MySQL, Flash

Experience with Adobe Arcobat, Adobe Photoshop, Corel Draw, Corel Photo Paint, Flash, Graphics Workshop

Help!!! I am thinking that the city of Calgary has no one good left....someone please prove me wrong!

[malcolmk14]

I don't know anything about any of this stuff, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night!


but seriously, try one of the tech colleges.

[dr_jared88]

Anybody of beyond at this time when they should be working probably isn't a "Good" candidate haha. Kidding.

But welcome to this wonderful era we live in. It's tough to find a good employee and even harder to hold on to one once you find out. Right now employees run the market because they are in short supply. It used to be the other way and I'm sure it will sooner or later revert back to that. But for the time being finding reliable help is very difficult.

[dr_jared88]

Originally posted by malcolmk14
I don't know anything about any of this stuff, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night!


but seriously, try one of the tech colleges.

Did you get bonus points for staying 2 nights? Or two major league baseball tickets for staying 8 nights? haha

[rc2002]

Candidates with good experience in all the above mentioned software can name their price right now. $50k isn't going to get you much employee in this job market.

A lot of designer/drafters I know make $60k-70k fresh out of school and all they can do is 2D cad.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Gasket
I can't even find a good peson to answer the phones around here. People with barely any skills think they deserve 50K per year!.....AND they are lazy... Am I the only one with this problem? Does anyone want to work anymore?
haha ya, fully agree with you here. All our best hires are referrals. It's funny, some of the interviews I've had, the people specifically go off on what they DON'T wanna do. They make it sound like we can't operate without them. It's insane.

There are good ones here and there, but they get cherry picked, head hunted pretty quick, so there are times we make an offer and they've already taken another job. Have to work fast.

All the new grads want baller money, it's pretty funny to see them in monster again a few months later where their expected salary has dropped by $30-50k when they realize they're still working at Starbucks looking for a job. :rofl:


Originally posted by richardchan2002
Candidates with good experience in all the above mentioned software can name their price right now. $50k isn't going to get you much employee in this job market.

A lot of designer/drafters I know make $60k-70k fresh out of school and all they can do is 2D cad.
You can find them if you have the time. There are good people out there, just gotta figure out how to attract them.

[thrasher22]

Because you're looking for someone who is both computer science major and an ACAD grad?

From what I've seen (I'm a web developer) people are either wicked at one or the other, or mediocre at both.

[A790]

The problem with good employees is that unless you can pay them your salary they'll eventually move on. That's why the corporate world is full of half-brained dimwits.

[dannie]

I find it is VERY hard to find good help. I actually have a theory about it. I think that since people in Calgary have become a little "richer," the kids of these people get off easily. Their mommys drive them to school and hockey practice etc. Mommy and daddy give allowances, clean their rooms, dont make them get a job and basically slack off. This becomes a trend. The kid gets to college or university and they slack until they have to cram and they eventually get their degree. It then transfers to the workplace.

I also (and this isnt intended at you), think that a lot of managers or owners, let shit go that they shouldnt because of the labor shortage. Oh, so what if johnny is late for work, he's all I have right now. A lot of employees have a similar outlook. Who cares if im late, my boss wont do anything, Im all he's got.

In our industry, turn over is an issue for most people. My newest staff member has been with me for 2 years. The rest 2 years to 9 years. I find if you are consistant with your requirements, treat them well and (I know this sounds bad) make sure they know that you WILL survive without them; staffing isn't an issue.

I think rage2 hit the nail on the head, you have to find a way to attract them. Work from home, better benefits, better holidays, flexibility, perks etc.

Just my 2 cents.

[xLostx]

I'll answer the phones for $49k for ya

[Rui M]

You need at least $50k a year to live.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by Rui M
You need at least $50k a year to live.

No you don't

Rental - 1 bedroom basement suite = $800
Bills - $200
Groceries - 1 person = $200
Bus pass = $75

A person can live on <$25g a year.

[KyleTA]

Originally posted by Tik-Tok


No you don't

Rental - 1 bedroom basement suite = $800
Bills - $200
Groceries - 1 person = $200
Bus pass = $75

A person can live on &lt;$25g a year.

Thats not living, thats surviving haha

[A790]

I think what he meant is that you need at least 50K/yr to live confortably. I know my bills add up to a lot more than $200/month.

Let's see...

Rent: Two bedroom apt - $1,200/mo ($600 is my share).
Car Insurance: $160/mo
Gas: $250/mo
Cell: $80/mo
Cable/Internet: $140/mo ($70 is my share)
Power: $100/mo ($50 is my share)
Misc bills (web hosting, etc.): $100/mo.
Groceries: $300/mo

Total: $1,610, or around $19,320/yr.

That's not including entertainment money, going out for dinner, new clothes, toiletries, etc.

So, realistically, a single person with a car needs to make around $25K after taxes just to pay their bills and live life a little bit. That's also assuming the car is paid off...

[Rui M]

:werd:

[Fiasco]

Originally posted by A790
I think what he meant is that you need at least 50K/yr to live confortably. I know my bills add up to a lot more than $200/month.

Let's see...

Rent: Two bedroom apt - $1,200/mo ($600 is my share).
Car Insurance: $160/mo
Gas: $250/mo
Cell: $80/mo
Cable/Internet: $140/mo ($70 is my share)
Power: $100/mo ($50 is my share)
Misc bills (web hosting, etc.): $100/mo.
Groceries: $300/mo

Total: $1,610, or around $19,320/yr.

That's not including entertainment money, going out for dinner, new clothes, toiletries, etc.

So, realistically, a single person with a car needs to make around $25K after taxes just to pay their bills and live life a little bit. That's also assuming the car is paid off...

total word, 50k after taxes to live pretty comfortably..if you have a family with a newborn you really want to double that, doable if both people work..!

[msommers]

Originally posted by Tik-Tok
No you don't

Rental - 1 bedroom basement suite = $800
Bills - $200
Groceries - 1 person = $200
Bus pass = $75

A person can live on &lt;$25g a year.

200 a month for groceries? like actually?

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by msommers


200 a month for groceries? like actually?

Well, my wife and I spend $400/month, so I guess it may be a little higher, like $250 or something.

[rage2]

Originally posted by KyleTA
Thats not living, thats surviving haha
You gotta work your way up. You're not entitled to live a life where you can party every night, tons of disposable income right off the bat. You have to *earn* it.

Seriously, I might sound like an old fart, but this generation is fucked in the head... everyone thinks they're entitled to make big bucks right off the bat. Everyone wants instant gratification, which doesn't exist unless you have rich parents, or you become a whore (for chicks).

[v2kai]

Originally posted by rage2
.... Everyone wants instant gratification, which doesn't exist unless you have rich parents, or you become a whore (for chicks).

you talk about this whoring for chicks...how would someone get into this line of work????

[88jbody]

i have worked in markets oposite then here, I was working as a licenced auto tech, wife, 2 kids, mortgage, insurance the normal bills and a car payment and I was making 13$/hr this was only 6 years ago. and I felt happy to have a job at all.

now I still keep my same work ethic here but now make 30/hr+ bonus this is my 4th employer in the past 6 years an dnow I plan on staying,

it is not the highest paying but has the best work enviroment overall, it is 12-14k/year less then the highest paying one but there was too much BS there to keep,

the job I liked the best was another 13k less then I make now. working on performance and restorations, but I just couldn't live very well on that.

so now I make between 60-65k for a family of 4 and get buy with a small bit extra but not much extra but live nicely



Money matters, but all the money won't keep someone if they don't like the enviroment.

and I have see alot of people who starting out think they can pick and choose, not do this, want that. and don't want to work hard to get it

I agree with every thing rage has said here you have to have something that makes people want to stay

[A790]

Originally posted by rage2

You gotta work your way up. You're not entitled to live a life where you can party every night, tons of disposable income right off the bat. You have to *earn* it.

Seriously, I might sound like an old fart, but this generation is fucked in the head... everyone thinks they're entitled to make big bucks right off the bat. Everyone wants instant gratification, which doesn't exist unless you have rich parents, or you become a whore (for chicks).
Or you work your ass off during the day and keep your head on your shoulders. I'm just about 22 and I make a very good income by anyones standards simply because I work when it needs to get done.

I don't mean putting in 8 hours at the office, I mean taking risks and pulling strings to make things happen.

[Gasket]

I figured that I wasn't the only one that felt this way. Even as an employer, I agree that less than 50K isn't enough to live on in this economy but no one should expect to make a shit load in their first 6 months. Why would any business owner in his right mind pay a huge salary to someone who may not even pass probation. Anyone worth their salt knows that they have to prove themselves....and they don't mind doing it.

I would rather have no one than pay too much to someone who is going to bail, never show up, be sick all the time or whine cause their "already stupid easy job" is too much for them. For the right person I would pay double that.....key phrase here is "the right person"....yet to find that...

Still searching....

[AndrewMZ3]

Originally posted by rage2

Seriously, I might sound like an old fart, but this generation is fucked in the head... everyone thinks they're entitled to make big bucks right off the bat. Everyone wants instant gratification, which doesn't exist unless you have rich parents, or you become a whore (for chicks).

It's because we grew up in a boom. We haven't experienced a significant recession yet and as a result we only know about the good times.

I bet a lot of attitudes will change in the next decade as the global market slows down. In the mean time, why not capitalize on the boom?

Similar to the buyers market in real estate right now, it's currently an employees market in the job market. I've switched jobs 4 times or so a year and a half out of university. Each switch brought in an extra 20%+. It's not that I felt that I deserved it or I was entitled to it, but employers were offering it.



Originally posted by Gasket

I figured that I wasn't the only one that felt this way. Even as an employer, I agree that less than 50K isn't enough to live on in this economy but no one should expect to make a shit load in their first 6 months. Why would any business owner in his right mind pay a huge salary to someone who may not even pass probation. Anyone worth their salt knows that they have to prove themselves....and they don't mind doing it.

I would rather have no one than pay too much to someone who is going to bail, never show up, be sick all the time or whine cause their "already stupid easy job" is too much for them. For the right person I would pay double that.....key phrase here is "the right person"....yet to find that...


What I would suggest is give the 50k offer but promise a performance and salary review 3 months in. At that point you'll be able to gauge if it is the right person. If it's not the right person, don't give the raise, they'll likely quit on their own and you can continue your search for the right person.

[Fiasco]

Originally posted by AndrewMZ3


It's because we grew up in a boom. We haven't experienced a significant recession yet and as a result we only know about the good times.

I bet a lot of attitudes will change in the next decade as the global market slows down. In the mean time, why not capitalize on the boom?

Similar to the buyers market in real estate right now, it's currently an employees market in the job market. I've switched jobs 4 times or so a year and a half out of university. Each switch brought in an extra 20%+. It's not that I felt that I deserved it or I was entitled to it, but employers were offering it.




What I would suggest is give the 50k offer but promise a performance and salary review 3 months in. At that point you'll be able to gauge if it is the right person. If it's not the right person, don't give the raise, they'll likely quit on their own and you can continue your search for the right person.

not to bragg even in University i'm in a job that is making me 40k a year of course working PT i don't make nearly as much but its a union job and i loves it..i like you had to swap a few jobs to get to this one, my suggestion is to keep looking for the best job you can, look even when you have a job never let your search get you down!! until you get the job you like..

[msouther]

I think the number one issue is employer branding. If you are a shitty employer it doesn't matter how much you pay because you will always have retention problems. Of course it is very hard for an employer to accept the fact that they aren't the most desireable or that they have a perception problem amongst the job seekers, but until that happens they will continue to experience the same old cycle.

Parents and the strength of the economy in general have an important role in this as well. Of course we all want what is best for our kids and to provide them with the things we didn't have. By doing this I think we are actually hurting them because they learn not to see the value in things. The kids grow up in this bustling economy thinking that they are entitled to everything and therefore don't develop a good work ethic like their parents did which enables them to provide these great lives for their kids.

It also has to be blamed on just plain stupidity. A good comparison would be the real estate market. People complain that they can't sell their houses, yet they are still trying to command the price they would get two years ago. Job seekers need to do their homework and realize that even the labour market goes through cycles and salaries rise and fall with the economy.

There are a lot of factors which lead to this sense of entitlement and there are a ton of theories as to how to fix it as well. It is like investing, if there was a simple answer we would all be rich!

[Alterac]

I find there is a lot of bitching and moaning by the whitebelt, white shoes generation.

Fresh out of uni, asking 50-60k.. Gimme a break.
We have hired a few of theses people and then fired them just as quick.
University + No Experience = NO SKILLSET.

Any 2 bit hack can get through university with minimal effort and the ability to read/memorize. (Plus the money to pay for it)

I found the best people we have hired have worked in the service industry for a while, or bussed, waitress, etc.. Someone who has to be on their feet, go go go all day.

Then we sit them at a desk, give a list of tasks, BAM! its done, and they are bored..

On a side note, about whats required to live on this is how mine breaks down:

Mortgage, Insurence, Prop Tax: $1500
Utilities (Incl Shaw Internet): $240
Food and Toiletries etc: $250
Car Insurence: $130
Gas: $150 (I dont drive to work)
Transit Pass: $75
Cell Phone: $45

So Like: $2,400 Month
$28,680 Yearly NET
* 37% Fed Tax, * 10% Prov Tax

=~ $43,220.76 K / year Gross

Which is not horrible, thats about $20.78 / hour, assuming 40hr work week and 52 weeks a year.

BTW, Im a huge nerd and made a spreadsheet to figure this all out. Its available if anyone wants it.

[syeve]

Originally posted by rage2


Seriously, I might sound like an old fart, but this generation is fucked in the head... everyone thinks they're entitled to make big bucks right off the bat. Everyone wants instant gratification, which doesn't exist unless you have rich parents, or you become a whore (for chicks).

It will come back to haunt them, they are getting the loot right now but all their leased cars and 5% down mortgages will make them cry themselves to sleep one day.


:devil:

[Antonito]

Originally posted by richardchan2002
A lot of designer/drafters I know make $60k-70k fresh out of school and all they can do is 2D cad.

Unless this includes a lot of overtime, I'm just going to flat out call bullshit on this.

At my last job I actually saw the pay rates of the designers in the company, and funny enough, nobody was making nearly as much as they say they do :D



Originally posted by rage2

You gotta work your way up. You're not entitled to live a life where you can party every night, tons of disposable income right off the bat. You have to *earn* it.

Seriously, I might sound like an old fart, but this generation is fucked in the head... everyone thinks they're entitled to make big bucks right off the bat. Everyone wants instant gratification, which doesn't exist unless you have rich parents, or you become a whore (for chicks).

:werd:

And more than just the money, one thing that worries me is the number of people that figure that they should be middle management within 2 years of being hired with no experience. And sadly enough, some of them get the jobs. Nothing scarier than seeing a project engineer that doesn't even have their fucking stamp.

[snoop101]

The only thing I see wrong with a lot of the calculations is that no one is taking loans and past debt into consideration. Im assuming anyone who has gone to school for 2-4 years has debt.

Also on another note I think a lot of people look at it as why should I be paid $50k a year while a knuckle draggier who can barely speak English and does nothing makes more. Now dont say this does not happen because I have worked in It now for a while and can say that theres a lot of people that you just shake your head at.

Last thing would be the company itself. People move from company to company because they either are moving up in position and the original company could not offer it. There moving because of pay and lastly and most common is that theres so many companies that just dont care about there workers. We used to have this saying "your just a number to them". Which is so true in a lot of companies.

[hampstor]

Originally posted by Fiasco


total word, 50k after taxes to live pretty comfortably..if you have a family with a newborn you really want to double that, doable if both people work..!

Wtf? you need 100k to have a newborn? Either you don't have kids, or you are very selfish.

I don't make much more then 50k now (I took a new job with a big paycut) and we are doing just fine.

[BigBadVlad]

yes it is....

[rc2002]

Originally posted by Antonito

Unless this includes a lot of overtime, I'm just going to flat out call bullshit on this.


True story. I know some of the people personally. And this is before overtime.



Originally posted by snoop101
The only thing I see wrong with a lot of the calculations is that no one is taking loans and past debt into consideration. Im assuming anyone who has gone to school for 2-4 years has debt.


That and also where are the savings. Sure you can live like that, but how are you going to retire? What if something comes up and there's no rainy day fund?

[mslbebiz]

A lot of designer/drafters I know make $60k-70k fresh out of school and all they can do is 2D cad.

Seriously? I knew drafters were making good money now, but that seems excessive for right out of school with no overtime.

What kind of drafting are they doing? And what types of companies are paying these salaries? Are these guys technicians (1yr) or technologists (2yr)?

It is true though that you need a lot more to live on now than you did even 5 years ago.

My fiance and I live in Edmonton and spend:

$1,600 on housing
$400-500 on food
$600 on vehicles (gas, loan, insurance)
$400-500 on bills
$200-$500 on debt

We probably average $3,500/mth or $42,000/yr just on expenses.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by mslbebiz


My fiance and I live in Edmonton and spend:

$1,600 on housing
$400-500 on food
$600 on vehicles (gas, loan, insurance)
$400-500 on bills
$200-$500 on debt

We probably average $3,500/mth or $42,000/yr just on expenses.

Well, with the two of you doesn't that mean you have two working adults, which would hopefully equate to $42K of spending/saving money (essentially one income goes to expenses)? Doesn't sound like you are doing too bad!

[mslbebiz]

Well, with the two of you doesn't that mean you have two working adults, which would hopefully equate to $42K of spending/saving money (essentially one income goes to expenses)? Doesn't sound like you are doing too bad!

You'd be right if we both made $70k/year. Unfortunately wages haven't increased nearly in line with living expenses. Plus we have to live in Edmonton for this income, which in one word, sucks.

Even with 2 incomes in the $50k range, you don't do that well. I drive an older but paid-for car and ride an older motorcycle, we still rent because we don't want to be mortgage poor, and we still don't have much left over for savings, investments or vacations.

It's no wonder people expect decent salaries now.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way complaining. But both sides need to take a good look at the situation. Employees need to quit expecting something for nothing and stop being so lazy. There's no excuse for that. And employers need to appreciate the fact that this is an expensive place to live and work, and if they can't/won't provide the type of wages necessary to retain a happy employee, they'll look elsewhere - fast.

[skyline19]

Originally posted by rage2

You gotta work your way up. You're not entitled to live a life where you can party every night, tons of disposable income right off the bat. You have to *earn* it.

Seriously, I might sound like an old fart, but this generation is fucked in the head... everyone thinks they're entitled to make big bucks right off the bat. Everyone wants instant gratification, which doesn't exist unless you have rich parents, or you become a whore (for chicks).

Cannot agree more.

i just turned 20 so i guess you could consider myself as the "beginning" of this generation haha. But most people my age and younger are just lazy pricks that want to get handed everything without earning it.

In regards to that, i had to work my ass off to get to where i am now. i am going for my Red Seal in Pipefitting in January and i am lined up to be the superintendent after I am done.:poosie:

Back to the OP's question... yes they are out there. Over the last year we have hired 10 guys. only 1 has lasted thus far and hes been terrific. works as hard as a fricking pack mule. Weird thing is, is that hes only 16... go figure:dunno:

[Antonito]

Originally posted by richardchan2002


True story. I know some of the people personally. And this is before overtime.

Can you find out where they work and PM it to me? I can only imagine how much they are paying people with actual experience considering they are paying tens of thousands of dollars above what the rest of the industry is paying

[prae]

Originally posted by A790

Or you work your ass off during the day and keep your head on your shoulders. I'm just about 22 and I make a very good income by anyones standards simply because I work when it needs to get done.

I don't mean putting in 8 hours at the office, I mean taking risks and pulling strings to make things happen.

you're 21 you LIAR ;)

[Fiasco]

Originally posted by skyline19


Cannot agree more.

i just turned 20 so i guess you could consider myself as the &quot;beginning&quot; of this generation haha. But most people my age and younger are just lazy pricks that want to get handed everything without earning it.

In regards to that, i had to work my ass off to get to where i am now. i am going for my Red Seal in Pipefitting in January and i am lined up to be the superintendent after I am done.:poosie:

Back to the OP's question... yes they are out there. Over the last year we have hired 10 guys. only 1 has lasted thus far and hes been terrific. works as hard as a fricking pack mule. Weird thing is, is that hes only 16... go figure:dunno:

right on alot of ppl dont have the drive to keep improving themselves...i noticed at office jobs especially ppl just get stuck in the wrut and don't want to find a better job..keep looking, work hard and improve yourself, you'll win!

[Amysicle]

Originally posted by A790
I'm just about 22...
Originally posted by prae
you're 21 you LIAR ;) :dunno: Sounds like being 21, almost 22 to me.

[prae]

Originally posted by Amysicle
:dunno: Sounds like being 21, almost 22 to me.

:facepalm:

reading > me

[Fiasco]

Originally posted by prae


:facepalm:

reading &gt; me

you're a good employee



:facepalm:

[googe]

I'd challenge one thing being said. If you find a good employee, DON'T give them the impression that you don't need them. That is a good strategy for lazy employees that call in sick and think they're above their job, but the same thing doesn't work with good employees because their motivation is completely different.

People with a strong work ethic are rewarded by feeling that they are valuable contributors and their hard work means something. Sincere recognition for a job well done will keep people going a lot better than no acknowledgment and a $5k higher salary.

Once you make them feel like they are a cog in the machine and you can replace them, you can kiss their motivation goodbye. They'll either go elsewhere or you'll turn them into another one of the lazy employees you're talking about.

[Danish]

Originally posted by googe
I'd challenge one thing being said. If you find a good employee, DON'T give them the impression that you don't need them. That is a good strategy for lazy employees that call in sick and think they're above their job, but the same thing doesn't work with good employees because their motivation is completely different.

People with a strong work ethic are rewarded by feeling that they are valuable contributors and their hard work means something. Sincere recognition for a job well done will keep people going a lot better than no acknowledgment and a $5k higher salary.

Once you make them feel like they are a cog in the machine and you can replace them, you can kiss their motivation goodbye. They'll either go elsewhere or you'll turn them into another one of the lazy employees you're talking about.

I couldn't agree more, money isn't always the driving factor in a career.