IT Security/IT Bench Tech salary expectations?

[Vagabond142]

Okay.

Time for the first really serious post from me in a while. I'm in my 3rd of 4th semester at SAIT in the IT Computer Systems field. I am starting to look around at companies that I may want to work for (some datacenters, some O&G IT positions, some helpline centers (IBM, etc)). I'm expecting that I will be able to find a position, at the very least, as a bench tech, a server maintenance tech, or as my dream job working IT Security Consulting.

My question is, to those out there, what can I reasonably put down as "expected salary" on my applications? I've heard everything from $35k-$50k starting for a bench tech, going to $75k+ for 3-5 years experience, and $50k-$65k starting as a security auditor/consultant starting to nearer $100k with a few years experience.


I want the reality though... what can I reasonably expect to make? (I'll be happy to start out at $40k-$50k and work my way up from there, tbh)

[rage2]

You're not going to get into IT security right out of school with no experience. You'll also have a hard time dealing with servers right off the bat, except with smaller firms where nothing is really mission critical.

Start off with a desktop support job (35k-45k), get your manager to let you get your hands dirty, make intelligent recommendations, and try to get some regular experience dealing with servers and security. A resume with 2 years of that goes a hell of a lot further than a 2 year degree.

Good luck, welcome to the fun world of IT!

[Mibz]

Pfffft, come on Simon, we all know you're gonna be a WoW GM when you graduate.

[Vagabond142]

Originally posted by rage2
You're not going to get into IT security right out of school with no experience. You'll also have a hard time dealing with servers right off the bat, except with smaller firms where nothing is really mission critical.

Start off with a desktop support job (35k-45k), get your manager to let you get your hands dirty, make intelligent recommendations, and try to get some regular experience dealing with servers and security. A resume with 2 years of that goes a hell of a lot further than a 2 year degree.

Good luck, welcome to the fun world of IT!

I appreciate the advice, Rage :) I am already getting my hands dirty with some last gen blades at school, as well as some RAID10 arrays, and it's a freakin blast :D Of course, it doesn't match real-world, mission-critical server maintenance, but I at least get to peek inside, fiddle around with, install and configure and finally get a fileserver running with a Proliant DL360 G3 dual Xeon system and a RAID10 of 18.3GB U320 SCSI's :)

I know that I will enter the field at the bottom, I was never expecting to hit the jackpot right off the bat (but it can happen, you never know, it's super rare tho). Hell, I don't mind working as a bench tech, I love to fix, build, troubleshoot. As long as I get to work on computers 8 hours a day, 5 days a week (maybe 7 days a week with 24 hour days sometimes, but that's the business), I have a smile on my face.

[Vagabond142]

Mibz: there are few jobs I want LESS than to listen 8 hours a day to a user go nerdrage on me <_<

[sputnik]

Originally posted by Vagabond142


I appreciate the advice, Rage :) I am already getting my hands dirty with some last gen blades at school, as well as some RAID10 arrays, and it's a freakin blast :D Of course, it doesn't match real-world, mission-critical server maintenance, but I at least get to peek inside, fiddle around with, install and configure and finally get a fileserver running with a Proliant DL360 G3 dual Xeon system and a RAID10 of 18.3GB U320 SCSI's :)

I know that I will enter the field at the bottom, I was never expecting to hit the jackpot right off the bat (but it can happen, you never know, it's super rare tho). Hell, I don't mind working as a bench tech, I love to fix, build, troubleshoot. As long as I get to work on computers 8 hours a day, 5 days a week (maybe 7 days a week with 24 hour days sometimes, but that's the business), I have a smile on my face.

Speaking as someone in Network Security with 10 years of IT experience I know that it is VERY unlikely that you will immediately start by working on servers or network appliances.

Your best bet is to apply at one of the big O&G firms and get your hands dirty working on the service desk. Companies like EnCana these days are starting around $45-50k for service desk staff. Be reasonable in your experience expectations. It will probably take a good 5-7 years before you will start solely working on mission critical servers in a production environment.

In the meantime learn as much as you can.

I am almost 30 and the youngest person in my team by at least 7 years.

[Mibz]

Originally posted by sputnik


Speaking as someone in Network Security with 10 years of IT experience I know that it is VERY unlikely that you will immediately start by working on servers or network appliances.

Your best bet is to apply at one of the big O&amp;G firms and get your hands dirty working on the service desk. Companies like EnCana these days are starting around $45-50k for service desk staff. Be reasonable in your experience expectations. It will probably take a good 5-7 years before you will start solely working on mission critical servers in a production environment.

In the meantime learn as much as you can.

I am almost 30 and the youngest person in my team by at least 7 years. Now when you're specifically in the network field is it the same? Vagabond and I are in the same program with different majors, I'm in Network Systems. I still know my way around Windows S2k3 and AD but my focus is Cisco networking. Do these companies usually have junior networking roles or will I be starting in a helpdesk/service position for a bit? I know IBM/AT&T are always hiring network analysts but it seems to me that it'd be harder to work your way up with such a high concentration of networking guys, all having seniority.

[Vagabond142]

^^^^^^ exactly.

I am in the computer systems stream, which focuses more on the individual machine vs the entire network. We do have some networking tossed in for fun, but we're focused more on individual system security and support, SOHO security and support, and small scale commercial security and support (100-1000 machines on Blades/workstation box servers with redudant datacenter arrays). We also get bench tech training, and come out of school (hopefully) with our A+ and able to challenge for the CISA security if we wanted it (which I do, which is why I'm studying like hell this year to get good marks and learn as much as I can)

[ekcondon]

Vagabond142,

I graduated from SAIT last year with my Diploma in Network Engineering (last Grad class of that program). I've been in the O&G IT field for 2 1/2 years now (was lucky enough to work & go to SAIT) and as other people have said, chances are you will start on Help/Service desk, but you do learn alot doing it. The problem with bigger firms like EnCana (who's IT support is actually done through 3 different consulting firms in Calgary, Longview Systems, Metafore IT Solutions and a third one) is you do not get a wide range of experience, your job is your job, unless you have a really supportive boss. The O&G company I work for is ~350 employees with field staff and there are 16 of us in the IT deparment. With the smaller firm, I have been able to get my hands into a little bit of everything. Servers, NAS/SAN, Database and Security. My personal focus is Servers and NAS/SAN devices so try to work as much with my infrastructure team as possible.

Like was said earlier though, experience really counts in this industry. An employer really likes to see that you have some industry experience. Certifications are good, but don't kill yourself getting them, the basics A+, Cisco of course (CCNA and CCNP) and maybe some microsoft ones. If you really want to do security, CISSP or your CISA will help you, but you need active security work experience for the security ones I think.

Anyway, congrats on your upcoming grad in 2009 haha. SAIT as an organization might be in the crapper, but I felt like I got a good solid education that prepared me for the workforce!

[nos_efx]

Originally posted by Mibz
Now when you're specifically in the network field is it the same? Vagabond and I are in the same program with different majors, I'm in Network Systems. I still know my way around Windows S2k3 and AD but my focus is Cisco networking. Do these companies usually have junior networking roles or will I be starting in a helpdesk/service position for a bit? I know IBM/AT&amp;T are always hiring network analysts but it seems to me that it'd be harder to work your way up with such a high concentration of networking guys, all having seniority.

Most large organizations have junior roles within server operations and IT in general. If I were you I would apply for the whole range, I wouldn't necessarily suggest starting out in the help desk role as your exposure to server operations or networking is fairly limited and movement could be limited depending on your manager.

Smaller companies are nice too as they let you dabble into many different things, after a year of that you can always hop to a more specific field in another organization.

[Mibz]

SAIT as an organization might be in the crapper, but I felt like I got a good solid education that prepared me for the workforce!Nice to see we're not the only ones that think there's room for improvement :P

And thanks to those that have helped so far, any information is good information!

[Grogador]

Try applying at SOC or NOC at www.shaw.ca decent place to work and definitely room to move up.

[snoop101]

You might want to talk to a couple recruiters. Theres is a bunch in town and some pay good some not, but I know a lot of companies will not hire you without a recruiter or they will hire you but direct you to a specific recruiter.

Recruiters can get you a full time position or a contract position. Really they both have there benefits. Sometime being a contractor is nice. You have a little more control, sometimes get paid more, and you can get a feel for a company before you go full time.

[Toms-SC]

I'll expand on this when I have more time.

1) You SAIT guys with your diplomas are in serious trouble. They are a dime a dozen. Although there are lots of general IT jobs out there if you want to have the edge on somebody else I'd advise you to take the Bachelors program. I just finished the BAI program with Network Major. 3 courses we did focus just on security. Lots of CCIE security and server security theories and practices. It really provides you the extra edge needed to get ahead.

Unfortunately if you took the computer engineering side of things your scope is going to be very very limited.

2) 'Get a job at a O & G company and bug your manager for opportunity'

Fuck that sense. Seriously. I've done that and learnt fast that you get no where. I've worked IT for the City of Calgary and Husky Oil. You soak up what you can to learn from positions like those and you move on. Big box places don't give a rats ass about you or your development. Why do you think Encana is mostly contract based? Its so when times get rough they can cut and slash +200 jobs without flinching. They just do not care.

Learning from that I have now found a place I'm happy at. A small consulting firm where I get to learn and touch all sorts of things without having to beg or plead. I've been here 5 months and in that time I've done SBS Servers, trained on webwashers and ironports, conducted roll outs of Symantec end-point and backup exec, used Juniper and Cisco ASA etc etc etc. Did I mention all this in 5 months?

Strive to find someplace that will value you and what you can bring to the table. It will not be easy but the pay out will be a much better life for yourself.

More to come

[rage2]

Originally posted by Toms-SC
1) You SAIT guys with your diplomas are in serious trouble. They are a dime a dozen. Although there are lots of general IT jobs out there if you want to have the edge on somebody else I'd advise you to take the Bachelors program. I just finished the BAI program with Network Major. 3 courses we did focus just on security. Lots of CCIE security and server security theories and practices. It really provides you the extra edge needed to get ahead.
Education is highly overrated, especially when it comes to security. I can tell you right now you'll learn more by hacking someone or getting hacked by someone than 4 years of training in a classroom.

I used to own several huge efnet IRC channels, protecting them was probably the best IT security training you can get. I ran bots off 20 different ISPs, and it was an invitation to get hacked/DOS'd 24/7 haha.

[cityhunter2501]

hey ekcondon may I ask who you are?
I graduated from NNT back in April as well

While in school I got job offers from both IBM and Longview, I turned down IBM (heard lots of bad stories about them and know a bunch of guys working there)
Now I'm the Field IT guy for an intermediate O&G w/ around 250 users in the office and around 6 field offices.
There's 4 of us, the other 3 are the desktop support, server support and team leader, I take care mostly of field issues (and get to travel alot) but when I'm in the office I get to do desktop, server and network related problems.

Also I'm doing network/server consulting for a SMB company during weekends

Basically like what everyone have been saying, the first couple of years you will be doing the dirty jobs but take the opportunity to learn as much as you can and find out what you really want to do later on.
I keep bugging my boss to give me responsibilities and he likes it, he tries to give me as much and diverse jobs as possible.

I'm working on getting my A+ atm, only have my CCNA certificate beside the SAIT diploma. Might get Secuirty+ and Networking+ afterwards then either go CCNP or MCSE
Was originally planning to specialize with network systems but I'm having more fun with desktop/server

[snoop101]

I agree with most people here.

A lot of these big companies just dont care about you. your just a number to them. Also dont think that if your full time with a company that your more secure in your job then a contractor. I worked for two companies here in Calgary that moved there desks overseas. Everyone got the boot and I mean everyone.

Also it is true that education means crap. if you want to learn do it yourself and read books. Do more specific things that will stand you out. Most places wont care what cert's you have they want to know what you can actually do.

[Toms-SC]

Originally posted by rage2

Education is highly overrated, especially when it comes to security.




I totally agree. Not all of us got a great job without having education you anti-trend cheat. On paper training looks great and it will get you past the first wall of the interview. HR eats that shit up. Schooling is nessarcy for most of us and when you all have the same two year diploma you need something to separate you from the pack.

I flat out told my instructors what I learn in that class I'll be using for malicious reasons. I still stand by that.

[dr_jared88]

Yea like most everyone has said you most likely won't go straight to one of those types of jobs. It doesn't matter how many certifications, diplomas or degrees you may have. It doesn't even really matter how smart you are. You need experience to back it all up. I'm considering myself extremely lucky to have gotten to network security after just a couple months of deskside.

My biggest piece of advise is pick a company that you can move up in. Then from there take an entry level job and show them that you are capable to move and fight for those job openings. Just remember when picking a job that a $40k a year job with a great chance of moving up quickly is much better then a $45k job that you are stuck at for years.

[adam c]

^^

part of me wishes i got that job part of me doesn't


you have a team to work with

i don't, but i'm also my own boss now

[LilDrunkenSmurf]

You applied for this job as well, didn't you?

I've had a lot of fun here, we're going to go to a shooting range pretty soon here as part of a team building process, and my boss is pretty slack and understanding.

[adam c]

yea i did...

never really understood why they said they were gonna call me back but never did

meh, everything happens for a reason, i'm making more here than i would have there, plus i manage an entire country server system and network

edit: i kept getting the over qualified or we think you're going to be bored with this job a lot.. i did at plains midstream too

actually the position i accepted that i'm currently at, the operations manager said she was concerned i would be bored but the person i replaced liked me

[sputnik]

Originally posted by Mibz
Now when you're specifically in the network field is it the same? Vagabond and I are in the same program with different majors, I'm in Network Systems. I still know my way around Windows S2k3 and AD but my focus is Cisco networking. Do these companies usually have junior networking roles or will I be starting in a helpdesk/service position for a bit? I know IBM/AT&amp;T are always hiring network analysts but it seems to me that it'd be harder to work your way up with such a high concentration of networking guys, all having seniority.

In my situation there were no "networking streams" at school so you had to learn it on your own. I didn't even really go to school for what I do now. I started at the bottom and learned as fast as I could.

I started working on the help desk for an ISP (fixing dialup connections on Windows 3.1). Got interested in networking there and started learning how to do ISDN, Frame Relay and EARLY ADSL installs. Ended up dropping out of Comp Sci at the U of M after my first year. This was the beginning for me.

Most of the junior networking jobs are cabling jobs. Guys patching desktops to the switches and doing some minor switch config changes (VLAN changes etc).

They are out there, but more often than not those duties are still handled by someone skilled in other areas since most companies aren't big enough to support a junior guy who doesn't have a broad base of network skills. These days having just a CCNA and fresh out of school doesn't mean very much. You have to also consider that not everyone is a Cisco shop. Sure the switches and routers may be Cisco but things like IDS/IPSes, firewalls, VPN endpoints, console servers, web filters and proxies are usually from other vendors. Other skills just as scripting, Linux admin and various application support (DNS, HTTP, HTTPS etc) are also good to have.

[Vagabond142]

I really appreciate all the insight given so far. I never expect to land a sweet-as-hell job off the bat, I am based enough in reality to realize that to get the big bucks, you have to scum-suck at the bottom for a bit.

To clarify things up a bit
My overall career goal is to get 35-40 years in the field, with some type of junior management position achieved before the 10 year mark, and maybe some kind of management position a few years after that.

And if security doesn't work out for me, I am also really interested in desktop support, server side support (and I know that will take a few years)... I love (***LOVE***) getting my hands into, onto and through computers, so even being a bench lead in a bench tech lab would be fun! I love to build, repair, troubleshoot, everything :)

As to schooling: I have learned so much at SAIT, plus I've already got a couple of industry foot-in-doors here. I know my diploma is dime-a-dozen, but it is at least something on the resume. I'm learning so much about server side deployment (software, hardware, hardening, mounting, etc) and security and such here that I, personally, feel that it's worth it. I know that maybe 10% of what I learn will actually apply, but it is a fun experience and I am enjoying it :)

But, to bring it back to the salary side, I would love to be making between $70k-$100k after ~7-10 years (adjusted to inflation, of course :D). Is that a feasible goal from starting at 40k and getting the right job to climb the ladder/job hop to get more pay (and fun)?

[sputnik]

Originally posted by Vagabond142
I really appreciate all the insight given so far. I never expect to land a sweet-as-hell job off the bat, I am based enough in reality to realize that to get the big bucks, you have to scum-suck at the bottom for a bit.

To clarify things up a bit
My overall career goal is to get 35-40 years in the field, with some type of junior management position achieved before the 10 year mark, and maybe some kind of management position a few years after that.

Management? Why? Do you like paperwork and long boring meetings?

Remember that there are many IT guys in the industry that get paid just as much if not more than their respective bosses. I would rather be a "hot shot IT guy" than some shirt and tie manager.


Originally posted by Vagabond142
And if security doesn't work out for me, I am also really interested in desktop support, server side support (and I know that will take a few years)... I love (***LOVE***) getting my hands into, onto and through computers, so even being a bench lead in a bench tech lab would be fun! I love to build, repair, troubleshoot, everything :)

That attitude is a good place to start. Just remember that you should also want to learn new technologies. Getting your hands into computers is one thing, but after a couple of years it will get VERY tiring and pretty monotonous.

Stay fresh. Don't get stuck doing the same thing for more than 2 years.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by Vagabond142
But, to bring it back to the salary side, I would love to be making between $70k-$100k after ~7-10 years (adjusted to inflation, of course :D). Is that a feasible goal from starting at 40k and getting the right job to climb the ladder/job hop to get more pay (and fun)?

If you aren't making $70-100k in 5 years you haven't learned or grown fast enough.

You should be starting at a MINIMUM of $40k.

[dr_jared88]

Originally posted by Vagabond142
I really appreciate all the insight given so far. I never expect to land a sweet-as-hell job off the bat, I am based enough in reality to realize that to get the big bucks, you have to scum-suck at the bottom for a bit.


Though you might be "scum", it really isn't that bad. You learn lots no matter how much you think you know. Especially about the particular company you are working for. You learn how they operate and how everything fits together. Being on a help desk you need to know a little bit of everything.

The other problem I found is yes I got lucky and moved into network security quickly but as someone else mentioned; everyone is MUCH older then me. the youngest guy on my team other then me is 31. They are all married and have kids. Some have kids almost as old as I am haha.

[Vagabond142]

Originally posted by sputnik


Management? Why? Do you like paperwork and long boring meetings?

Remember that there are many IT guys in the industry that get paid just as much if not more than their respective bosses. I would rather be a &quot;hot shot IT guy&quot; than some shirt and tie manager.


I was meaning more hand-on, tech side management. But I'd be humdingerydoo happy if I could be a senior tech making management grade money :)

As the saying goes: find a job you love and never work another day of your life.

That's how I view a career in IT. As long as I am working with computers, I am having fun :D

[snoop101]

Depending on the company management can be more stressful that anything else. You got people under you and over you to worry about. You take the shit from all angles.

[Grogador]

Originally posted by Vagabond142
As long as I am working with computers, I am having fun :D

That will probably change within a couple soul-crushing months of the real world...

[Vagabond142]

Originally posted by Grogador


That will probably change within a couple soul-crushing months of the real world...

I have a soul? I thought that being in IT required that the soul already be sold to the technology gods so that your server linux install only needs 3 iterations :P

[adam c]

there are no gods in IT, if there were nothing would fail... ever...

only devils and assholes that you give your soul to

[dr_jared88]

Originally posted by adam c
there are no gods in IT, if there were nothing would fail... ever...

only devils and assholes that you give your soul to

unless the IT god likes to watch people scramble and get frustrated hehe :devil:

[Mibz]

Originally posted by Grogador


That will probably change within a couple soul-crushing months of the real world... I worked over the summer doing network and domain implementation for a development lab. I don't think I've cursed Cisco and Microsofts name more in my life. That said, as soon as things were working I'd never felt so satisfied. It was really nice to finally A) put my education to use and B) accomplish goals that really mean something.

[Vagabond142]

sounds like a perfect place XD All kidding aside, I'm really excited and really humbled at the same time by the responses in this thread. What I've gotten so far is:

-$40k good starting wage
-Learn , learn it again, and then learn some more. And then learn about the new stuff that just came out.
-Work hard, be diverse, ask for the dirty jobs, do them well, and advancement will come.
-Management is a hellhole, try to be a senior tech instead :P

Amirite?

As a side note, last summer (not 2008), I worked a couple months as a cat6 cable puller at SAIT. I wired the first six floors of res as well as terminated the first 3 floors. I also helped partially pull the new IT offices in Crandell at SAIT (including wiring and organizing in the server room in Crandell). So I know how slow that can go (and how sore your back gets XD)

[adam c]

hehe i like to think of myself as god on my network...

i decide who has internet and network access and who doesn't, if someone is being annoying i just turn off their internet :devil:

or just make their favorite websites unavailable on that machine
:devil: :devil:

ohh whats that? random shut down.. haha ok then

[snoop101]

After doing internal support you feel like a god because everyone else there seems like a peon.

But the saying goes... We wouldent have a job if there wasn't dumb people.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Vagabond142
I was meaning more hand-on, tech side management. But I'd be humdingerydoo happy if I could be a senior tech making management grade money :)

As the saying goes: find a job you love and never work another day of your life.

That's how I view a career in IT. As long as I am working with computers, I am having fun :D
The transition from a hands on techy to a full time manager is not easy. Even tho I have the title, I still struggle with it to this day. I still "do" a lot of the work, even tho my boss wants me to keep my hands out of it. I trust my team to be able to do as good, if not better of a job than I can, but at the end of the day, I just enjoy getting my hands dirty and playing with new toys.

You're kidding yourself if you think you can stay being a hands on manager. You end up becoming the bottleneck like I have, and eventually you'll have to choose between a techy or management. I tried giving up the management position several times in the last 10 years, but my boss wouldn't let me because he had faith that I would be great in management, planning, etc. It's been almost 10 years now but I'm slowly getting there lol.

I honestly think you're destined to be a tech or management, nothing inbetween. It's very rare to see excellent techs enjoy themselves in management. Like I said, I still struggle with it, but it's a very interesting challenge and I've learned so much (where as a tech I felt I knew everything). I guess it's that challenge that keeps me going today.

[Vagabond142]

Rage2: So as a hands on person, you'd suggest I try to stay more into the junior tech -> tech -> senior tech -> lead tech kinda progression?

To be honest, as long as I'm making more than $70k after the 5 year mark, I am content. Granted, the more I make, the more toys I can have :devil: but I digress (I mean, having THREE 30 inch monitors wouldn't be overkill right...... right?)

[Mibz]

Originally posted by Vagabond142
-Management is a hellhole, try to be a senior tech instead :P

Amirite? My direct supervisor was contracted as the network lead for the entire project. Rumor had it that he was making damn near $190,000. Once I left he wasn't "managing" anybody, he was just the guy taking care of the networks. I'm pretty sure he was making more than most of the management on the project.

So yeah, if you want to be the geek then you can do it and make huge money but, from what I've heard, you need to be REALLY FUCKING GOOD to get there. Technical skills are easy to come by. Anybody can learn them. You need to be noticeably better than everybody to command that kind of money. This is all hearsay obviously.

EDIT:
I honestly think you're destined to be a tech or management, nothing inbetween. It's very rare to see excellent techs enjoy themselves in management.That really gives me something to think about. I didn't want to peak at technical skills and then have nowhere to go so I figured getting a BA or something and becoming management would help. But I've had management positions twice and, quite honestly, failed at them. Maybe I should scrap the management idea and just do my best to the be the best geek I can.

[adam c]

Originally posted by rage2

The transition from a hands on techy to a full time manager is not easy. Even tho I have the title, I still struggle with it to this day. I still &quot;do&quot; a lot of the work, even tho my boss wants me to keep my hands out of it. I trust my team to be able to do as good, if not better of a job than I can, but at the end of the day, I just enjoy getting my hands dirty and playing with new toys.

You're kidding yourself if you think you can stay being a hands on manager. You end up becoming the bottleneck like I have, and eventually you'll have to choose between a techy or management. I tried giving up the management position several times in the last 10 years, but my boss wouldn't let me because he had faith that I would be great in management, planning, etc. It's been almost 10 years now but I'm slowly getting there lol.

I honestly think you're destined to be a tech or management, nothing inbetween. It's very rare to see excellent techs enjoy themselves in management. Like I said, I still struggle with it, but it's a very interesting challenge and I've learned so much (where as a tech I felt I knew everything). I guess it's that challenge that keeps me going today.


Originally posted by Vagabond142
Rage2: So as a hands on person, you'd suggest I try to stay more into the junior tech -&gt; tech -&gt; senior tech -&gt; lead tech kinda progression?

To be honest, as long as I'm making more than $70k after the 5 year mark, I am content. Granted, the more I make, the more toys I can have :devil: but I digress (I mean, having THREE 30 inch monitors wouldn't be overkill right...... right?)

through my experience in the past year it has had its ups and downs...

my final career path would be managing a team of people instead of me and another person, but you have to start somewhere.

I enjoy being hands on but I like having the responsibility to decide what direction the company is going with IT, whether its the basics of internet connection or the implementation of our country wide domain and VOIP system...

i enjoy being the person everyone turns to for help even though some of the questions are so dumb i just want to slap them. but then there's always those times where you are stuck and it might take you a couple hours to a couple days before you finally figure it out. after all is said and done you know that you accomplished something

[Mibz]

I enjoy being hands on but I like having the responsibility to decide what direction the company is going with ITIs it common for management to not ask for, or ignore input from senior geeks?

[adam c]

if i had senior geeks under me then i would get their opinions.. but i'm my own boss and my own team.

i have a programmer out in toronto but other than that i decide what/where/when/why. if i had someone else then for sure i would get their input and opinion

[LilDrunkenSmurf]

adam c, where ARE you working?!

[adam c]

Calforex

[LilDrunkenSmurf]

Hiring? Baha

[adam c]

lol i thought you liked your job?

[snoop101]

Ya im in the same boat. Where I work now its all union. No one leaves because they got it to good. Really sucks if your trying to move up.

[Anomaly]

I recently also graduated from NNT this year at SAIT as well, My advice to the OP;
Be patient.
I had a couple companies call me as soon as I graduated, And as soon as the wage expectation came up in the interview they basically laughed at me whenI said what I wanted straight out of school (45-50k annually). From Three interviews they all offered me around 35-40k a year, citing lack of experience. However, after a couple of those interviews I got on with the company I'm with now and I got what I wanted. Don't be afraid to turn offers down, despite what some people have said, you will get alot of job offers.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Vagabond142
Rage2: So as a hands on person, you'd suggest I try to stay more into the junior tech -&gt; tech -&gt; senior tech -&gt; lead tech kinda progression?
Yep. If that's what you enjoy, that's the route I would take.

I tried to take that path too but got forced into management. Like I said, still a struggle for me to this day.

[Alterac]

I enjoy being the lead tech where I am.

It is very awkward for me to deligate tasks down the chain because I want things done my way. Its a habbit I need to break in order to move on.

Here is another fun thing.
If you have Social Skills, you will definatly get promoted over the better techs because you can deal with people.

If your the troll look alike guy who chugs back 4l of coke everyday that smells bad with bad teeth, huge facial hair, and hoodies... expect to stay in the basement. lol.

[kutt3r]

I will throw my 2 cents in here...

I will start by saying that to the poster that says management does not make as much as techies.. you dont have a clue. The only people that would make more than me are contractors and to a manager they are a tool, to use the throw back until needed again. That is just in salary, you are not counting bonuses, expense accounts and perks which usually add up quite nicely.

Now to the OP honestly work a little and figure it out, working in a big O&G company you will likely not move as quickly as you would like. You will naturally move to one side or the other, tech/management, stick with what you like as tech managers tend to be poor leaders, they just do not have the tools that a good manager has, not to say that they cannot learn them, but I think you have heard it hear, with people wanting things done their way and wanting to keep there hands deeper than they should be. It is always hard to do, but to be an effictive manager you need to let your people do their work so you can do yours.

I would suggest a smaller company, which means a little less pay but then you can work everything as smaller teams mean more responsability, sure you could make more doing helpdesk but the experience will be now where near as good, do not let the money drive you. Another good option is Greycon, Metafore or Longview systems. Metafore bench techs make decent money and get great experience, you will see server HW sooner. Greycon has an excellcent security/networking group and Longview, well is Longview you will get experience.

Don't let the money drive you, you will end up miserable, find a job you like and constantly take advantage of training seminars, anything that can help you grow and expand your skills as I find that is the most under used benifit at any company I have been with. I rape companies for all the training I can get, technically, management, ITIL, PM, BA don't matter and it gives you a huge skill base to draw upon.

The biggest thing I can impart on you, is that the Calgary IT community is small, don't burn any bridges as it can and will screw you. There is always somone to talk to find out about someone, I would usually check with my contacts as opposed to a reference sheet for my own 'reference' checks.

Cheers and good luck.

[Vagabond142]

kutt3r: thanks for the reply, and tips. I will definitely look into the places you recommended.

I think I'm past my asshole stage :p I was a fairly buggerish cunt in my early 20's, but I got past that part and I'm now actively seeking to establish a contact base, keep in touch with them, ask them questions relating to the industry (that aren't stupid), be it over these forums or via my instructors at school (who are all very well entrenched with the right people to get to know).

As to the money aspect... I just want a good job with good pay. In the mid 2010's, 70k isn't going to be that much money, if the economy and markets keep their current trend. Then again, ***ANYTHING*** to do with computers makes me happy. I love to be hands on, I love to fix, to troubleshoot, or just to build and implement. It's as the saying goes: "find something to do that you love, and never work a day of your life." :) I truly see the IT field that way... I just love technology and I want to work with it the rest of my years :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Even if it is as a benchie at MemEx or a Lead Tech with a Big4.

[rage2]

Money isn't everything.

I'd rather do what I want for less money than to hate coming to work everyday for a bigger paycheck.

[tyler_durden]

Anyone have leads for an entry level IT position?

[rage2]

I have several open right now that involves shift work. Shoot me a PM.

[Alterac]

What company do you work for Rage?

[rage2]

Replicon.

[Grogador]

You web timesheet is due! Submit it now!!! Replicants are on their way to ensure compliance.

:thumbsup:

[rage2]

Originally posted by Grogador
You web timesheet is due! Submit it now!!! Replicants are on their way to ensure compliance.

:thumbsup:
haha I get those overdue ones so much :rofl:.

[Vagabond142]

Originally posted by tyler_durden
Anyone have leads for an entry level IT position?

I've already fired off about 5 resumes so far... anyone else have potential part time, weekend work for entry level IT? (I am willing to do everything from server babysitting to hauling computers to-and-fro on the weekends, just something I can put on my resume as industry experience :) )

[Mibz]

Originally posted by Vagabond142
hauling computers to-and-fro on the weekends I guess I'll be seeing you at the Encana interview in a few hours then?

[Vagabond142]

Yar, I was there :D

[jacques]

HI,

I have read posts all on this board.
I have a position in Calgary where I am seeking a professional with CISSP and audit experience.

Can anyone help me?

Jacques

It is a junior position with mid range salary and it is negotiable.

[googe]

One tip regarding looking for advice in the security field. Don't ask anyone that says they work in security. They all have huge ego problems and lie about how much they make. Not kidding :rofl: They also try to glorify themselves and think they're some rare breed of expert. Most of them think managing firewall policies, VPNs, and IPS's is "security". Probably 5% of the people that work in security actually know anything. Fortunately, it's just as easy to make a good salary being the other 95% because no one knows the difference anyway. The amount of bullshitting and superiority complexes in the industry is astounding. No schools offer any training in the field either, though some pretend to. I can name a few specialized boot-camp style courses that give real training, but even though they give you 1000x more knowledge than CISSP, outsiders don't usually recognize them on resumes so they don't make you look fancy.

If anyone claims that they do assessments, pen testing, or audits, and they don't know what immunity canvas or core impact is, don't take advice from them. They don't have to use them, but if they don't even know what those are, then they are out of touch and probably just a firewall monkey.

So uh, I guess the good news is that bullshitting skills are just as good as technical skills if you still want to make top dollar :)

[sputnik]

Originally posted by jacques
HI,

I have read posts all on this board.
I have a position in Calgary where I am seeking a professional with CISSP and audit experience.

Can anyone help me?

Jacques

It is a junior position with mid range salary and it is negotiable.

You wont find a "junior" CISSP willing to work for mid-range money. Not a good one anyways.

You are required to have several years of security experience before you can qualify to get your CISSP.

[Toms-SC]

Originally posted by Toms-SC


More to come

Why hello again.

Times change fast don't they. Well over the past couple of months I got my self a security job. It was not easy. You really have to know people in the industry who will provide you with a fantastic reference. I am now working for a top 10 company in Canada focusing on pen testing/compliance/vulnerability management. I'm loving every day I go to work now! Not bad for less then a year after being done school.

Schooling did play a huge part. They really wanted to see a security and management courses (although they did not know what SAIT is). I can say taking the BAI was the best decision I ever made or I would not be here right now.

Strive! Don't even stop making contacts and do not put up with bullshit. It took me 4 stops to get here including a 'daring' career gamble but it paid off. I got to attend the West Coast Security Conference this week and something the 'veteran security professionals' brought up was the fact nobody was taking up the security career. :facepalm: Well Mr.Genius why not talk to your HR department to get some Jr. positions opened! :facepalm: Train some young IT guys and see how it goes.

Over the next year I get to go to DEFCON and attend a CISSP boot camp. :D As per pay the company I work for bills me out at $250/hr with the most senior billing out at $600/hr. I think that could tell you what sort of opportunities are out there.

Oh ya, it is not in 'oil rich' Alberta either. :D

[rage2]

Originally posted by Toms-SC
I am now working for a top 10 company in Canada focusing on pen testing/compliance/vulnerability management.
Congrats man. I hope you're doing real penetration testing and not running scripts like a glorified script kiddie haha.

[Toms-SC]

Originally posted by rage2

Congrats man. I hope you're doing real penetration testing and not running scripts like a glorified script kiddie haha.

Yea no. We use freely available stuff but do in house writing and programing to take advantage of something if it is not available. The only rule (for now) is no social engineering! You use the whatever you need to get it done. I'm proposing a HP DL360 running ESXi to house my tool set and base of operations. God damn am I learning a lot....

[googe]

Originally posted by Toms-SC


Over the next year I get to go to DEFCON and attend a CISSP boot camp. :D As per pay the company I work for bills me out at $250/hr with the most senior billing out at $600/hr. I think that could tell you what sort of opportunities are out there.


defcon is for getting drunk, blackhat is for security :rofl:

[Toms-SC]

Originally posted by googe


defcon is for getting drunk, blackhat is for security :rofl:

I like old people with war stories.

[89coupe]

I posted a job on here awhile back for an IT Security personal and I only got one PM from Beyond who was interested.


I'm surprised redline hasn't piped in. I'd be willing to bet he has the most experience of anyone on here when it comes IT, considering he has Managed two IT departments now for major Oil & Gas companies.

[googe]

Originally posted by Toms-SC


I like old people with war stories.

watch out for john draper. he'll try and offer you a massage. not even kidding.

[Alterac]

Managing and IT department or two doesnt mean you know all the technical ins and outs, most managers of IT departments either have no experience in the Tech side of things, or they are old washed up techs. lol.

Not that there are no good managers with up to date technical knowledge, its just that they are rare.

[Toms-SC]

Originally posted by googe


watch out for john draper. he'll try and offer you a massage. not even kidding.

You going down too? Perhaps time for a Beyond OG meeting at Defcon?

[GQBalla]

Originally posted by Toms-SC


Yea no. We use freely available stuff but do in house writing and programing to take advantage of something if it is not available. The only rule (for now) is no social engineering! You use the whatever you need to get it done. I'm proposing a HP DL360 running ESXi to house my tool set and base of operations. God damn am I learning a lot....

weakkk run a 580 with 128GB of RAM and 4xquadcore proccesors at least for what your planning on doin ;)

[phatfx]

Originally posted by Toms-SC


Why hello again.

Times change fast don't they. Well over the past couple of months I got my self a security job. It was not easy. You really have to know people in the industry who will provide you with a fantastic reference. I am now working for a top 10 company in Canada focusing on pen testing/compliance/vulnerability management. I'm loving every day I go to work now! Not bad for less then a year after being done school.

Schooling did play a huge part. They really wanted to see a security and management courses (although they did not know what SAIT is). I can say taking the BAI was the best decision I ever made or I would not be here right now.

Strive! Don't even stop making contacts and do not put up with bullshit. It took me 4 stops to get here including a 'daring' career gamble but it paid off. I got to attend the West Coast Security Conference this week and something the 'veteran security professionals' brought up was the fact nobody was taking up the security career. :facepalm: Well Mr.Genius why not talk to your HR department to get some Jr. positions opened! :facepalm: Train some young IT guys and see how it goes.

Over the next year I get to go to DEFCON and attend a CISSP boot camp. :D As per pay the company I work for bills me out at $250/hr with the most senior billing out at $600/hr. I think that could tell you what sort of opportunities are out there.

Oh ya, it is not in 'oil rich' Alberta either. :D

Wow, after reading through each and every post, I just want to say good on you Tom. I'm a believer in education and the distance it will take you and it makes me want to complete and do the best I can as I attempt my bachelor's.

I hope someday I'll be able to achieve the position that you are in. Anyways, congratulations again on getting such a fine job after hard work of making connections and trying. :clap:

[googe]

We all believe in education. Whether you should let school get in the way of your education is the question :rofl:


Originally posted by Toms-SC


You going down too? Perhaps time for a Beyond OG meeting at Defcon?

Probably, but I have a habit of making decisions like that hours before I'm supposed to leave :D I'm a lot closer now, so that's good. Try to get them to send you to blackhat though. They're back to back, you'll get way more out of it, and your BH pass gets you into DC for free. Costs like 10x as much though.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by Toms-SC
DEFCON and attend a CISSP boot camp.

DEFCON is fun, but it is more of a gathering of geeks trying to be cooler than the other more than anything. RSA in San Francisco is a FAR better security conference.

[UndrgroundRider]

Originally posted by googe
One tip regarding looking for advice in the security field. Don't ask anyone that says they work in security. They all have huge ego problems and lie about how much they make. Not kidding :rofl: They also try to glorify themselves and think they're some rare breed of expert. Most of them think managing firewall policies, VPNs, and IPS's is &quot;security&quot;. Probably 5% of the people that work in security actually know anything. Fortunately, it's just as easy to make a good salary being the other 95% because no one knows the difference anyway. The amount of bullshitting and superiority complexes in the industry is astounding. No schools offer any training in the field either, though some pretend to. I can name a few specialized boot-camp style courses that give real training, but even though they give you 1000x more knowledge than CISSP, outsiders don't usually recognize them on resumes so they don't make you look fancy.

If anyone claims that they do assessments, pen testing, or audits, and they don't know what immunity canvas or core impact is, don't take advice from them. They don't have to use them, but if they don't even know what those are, then they are out of touch and probably just a firewall monkey.

So uh, I guess the good news is that bullshitting skills are just as good as technical skills if you still want to make top dollar :)

Agree 100%.

You guys would not believe the bullshit I hear from "security experts" on a daily basis. It's /faceroll every 10 minutes in this industry.

IT people measure how smart they are based on how difficult it was for them to accomplish a given task. If the task was really difficult, and they completed it, they consider themselves really smart. Unfortunately this is circular logic, and only results in everyone thinking they're smarter than everyone else.

[UndrgroundRider]

Originally posted by sputnik


DEFCON is fun, but it is more of a gathering of geeks trying to be cooler than the other more than anything. RSA in San Francisco is a FAR better security conference.

DEFCON is a party. RSA is a conference. Nuff said.

I really really enjoy capture the flag at DEFCON. Maybe I will go this year, it's been a while. Gotta check out the new digs.

[Mibz]

So how's the economic downturn affecting everybody in IT? I can't imagine there are any layoffs but I figure hiring is frozen for the time being in a lot of places. What's the deal? I need to start looking for jobs in the new year, are there sectors that are more likely to hire me?

[Davetronz]

Originally posted by Mibz
So how's the economic downturn affecting everybody in IT? I can't imagine there are any layoffs but I figure hiring is frozen for the time being in a lot of places. What's the deal? I need to start looking for jobs in the new year, are there sectors that are more likely to hire me?
We are on a major hiring freeze, only absolutely essential depts and positions being hired, plus a lot of people doing jobs which might not be their "job" just to get by without hiring anyone.

[LilDrunkenSmurf]

We just hired someone for IT... Jr position though. Also a beyond member, but that's all I'll say..

[googe]

there are tons of IT layoffs and hiring freezes. pretty much every major tech company has slashed workforce already.

http://www.techcrunch.com/layoffs/

[Zhariak]

Ok, I know alot of people are telling you not to excel...

Go out there, ask for any kind of position you want. Ask for a min of 55K, and GO IN and ask to speak to people when you drop your resume off.

Be confident, shake hands... IT positions are some of the easiest jobs to get as LONG as you have social and people skills and know general business conduct.

You won't get a job for a big international oil company downtown. But for alot of well established local businesses that have been around for 10-30 years you'd be surprised how easy it is to find a job!

[Toms-SC]

Originally posted by Zhariak


Ask for a min of 55K


:thumbsup: Do not under sell your classmates by low balling on a position.

[89coupe]

Originally posted by Zhariak

Be confident, shake hands... IT positions are some of the easiest jobs to get as LONG as you have social and people skills and know general business conduct.



Hahaha, IT people and social skills????

OXYMORON!:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[sputnik]

Originally posted by 89coupe


Hahaha, IT people and social skills????

OXYMORON!:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Aren't you an engineer or geologist?

[Euro838]

Originally posted by Toms-SC


:thumbsup: Do not under sell your classmates by low balling on a position.

I think people today also have to be aware that a lot of manager's budgets are being slashed, some in the range of 30-50%. I mean, if they find a good person with a lower salary expectation, that could be the determining criteria.

Usually the salary expectation is at the end of the interview so if they do like you, and you provide a number that works with their budget, you could be presented with an offer.

Whereas someone who states a salary expectation significantly higher would probably be dismissed as too expensive. The time where "name your price" is over, there's actually competition now.

With salaries and contractor rates ballooning over the past several years, companies are looking at the economic slowdown to take an opportunity to reduce their costs and therefore reduced salaries and rates.

[sputnik]

If you are getting an actual IT Security job, $55k should be considered the low end of the spectrum for a salaried employee with benefits.

The low end for a contractor would be around $35/hr.

[LilDrunkenSmurf]

Originally posted by 89coupe


Hahaha, IT people and social skills????

OXYMORON!:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I got chosen over others with more experience, because of my ability to relate with users, or co-workers and put them at ease with some low-level expectations.

Some of the guys I work with are geniuses, but they can barely function on a computer, so they like it when you can let them know whats going on, without making them feel stupid.

[snoop101]

Originally posted by googe
there are tons of IT layoffs and hiring freezes. pretty much every major tech company has slashed workforce already.

http://www.techcrunch.com/layoffs/

Except for that we live in Calgary and there will be a slow down but not like other cities. If there is layoffs here in Calgary its because its leveling out and companies are getting rid of there shitty people that they hired in the last few years because they had to.

The IT market in Calgary to me is staying strong, though you wont see the stupid hiring like the last few years, where if you can say hello in English and show up to work you got a job.

[dr_jared88]

Originally posted by LilDrunkenSmurf
We just hired someone for IT... Jr position though. Also a beyond member, but that's all I'll say..

Do you happen to work for Trident? haha

[googe]

Originally posted by snoop101


Except for that we live in Calgary and there will be a slow down but not like other cities. If there is layoffs here in Calgary its because its leveling out and companies are getting rid of there shitty people that they hired in the last few years because they had to.

The IT market in Calgary to me is staying strong, though you wont see the stupid hiring like the last few years, where if you can say hello in English and show up to work you got a job.

i dunno about that, because not many companies are based in calgary. most hiring freezes and RIFs are company-wide. i do know of several layoffs in calgary recently.

i disagree with 55k being the minimum too. id say more like 40k. like I said, security people have ego problems and always think theyre worth more than they are. its always been that way in the industry. of course there is potential to make far more than that, but fresh out of school and no experience, you're probably going to be viewed as a douche if you demand 55k.

[Toms-SC]

40k? Tell them to get fucked. Let them bring in some IT 'talent' from China for that price.

The best thing I did with my class is get everybody on board with a 'minimum wage'. It was easy to do with only 15 people and we filtered out the shit jobs. Nobody accepted an offer below 50K (or the promise of after 3 months). :thumbsup:

[sputnik]

$40k?

Srsly?

That is a desk side support analysts salary. Not an IT/Network Security salary.

Unless the only "security" you are doing is modifying the odd firewall rule or ACL.

[snoop101]

Even tier 2 help desk and deskside get around 50-55k.

[UndrgroundRider]

Originally posted by snoop101
Even tier 2 help desk and deskside get around 50-55k.

Uh, no. I'm sure there's the odd guy making upwards of 50k/year, but I personally know dozens of tier 2 and desktop support guys that make less than 40k.

The average for desktop support has to be in the 35-40 range.

[PaleRider]

Originally posted by googe


i dunno about that, because not many companies are based in calgary. most hiring freezes and RIFs are company-wide. i do know of several layoffs in calgary recently.

i disagree with 55k being the minimum too. id say more like 40k. like I said, security people have ego problems and always think theyre worth more than they are. its always been that way in the industry. of course there is potential to make far more than that, but fresh out of school and no experience, you're probably going to be viewed as a douche if you demand 55k.

true - for fresh grad. However IMHO anyone in IT security should have at least a couple of years of real (not help desk) system/network admin or software development experience under their belt.