Sports car or frugal fun? Help!

[mslbebiz]

So I'm looking to get a new car as I drive a lot for work (and play). I've been looking at and test driving many sport cars in the $30k range, and am hoping for some opinions.

I'm undecided if I'm going to lease or buy but will want to keep payments around $400/mth.

VW GTI
Used Acura RSX Type S
Mini Cooper S
Mazdaspeed 3
Mazdaspeed 6
New Subaru WRX 265
New Mitsubishi Ralliart
Pontiac G8 GT

Also want to still test drive the new Cobalt SS (it's supposed to be amazing, I keep hearing), the Volvo C30 and the Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V.

I'm looking for something that won't totally kill me on gas, although I think almost all of these use premium, looks good and is a nice place to be for long periods of time (working from my vehicle). It will also be driven year round, and of course I would prefer if I ended up with a cool car vs a d-bag car lol.

Opinions?

Anything I'm missing? I definitely like some of those on my list more than others after driving them.

I'm also considering getting something economical instead, like the new Fit Sport, SX4 Sedan or Accent SE. What's the most fun frugal car to drive?

Thanks for the help guys, I need it!

[AE92_TreunoSC]

Drive them all, and stay away from the pontiac.

Pick the one that best suits your body, driving style, and personality.

WRX is great because you wouldnt have to sell it if you decide to settle down haha.

[mslbebiz]

Funny, the G8 was actually one of the best cars I drove. The reviews are right, it's one helluva sports sedan and a lot of bang for the buck. Why no love for the Aussie? :D

[max_boost]

That's a nice list of quality/bang for the buck cars that has good power and some utility.

On this forum, the GTI and WRX is a favorite of many. :thumbsup:

[lamp_shade_2000]

The GTI was REALLY fun when I test drove one a couple months ago. Test it out with the DSG tranny though. It ended up being way beyond my expectations.

[andyg16]

I think the G8 would be a good choice ive only heard good things about it so far

[BlackArcher101]

You said you drive a lot? How much is a lot in this case?
If it's excessive, then a lease is probably not the way to go.

[mslbebiz]

I drive probably 600-1,000 km a week, so yeah a lease likely wouldn't be the best choice unless the dealer offered a KM purchase plan. Gm was doing that for a while at 6c a km, now that's cheap driving.

The GTI I drove did have the DSG, but it felt really jerky and I wasn't a huge fan. It was almost like something was wrong with the car, so I'll have to try another. I drove the new Ralliart with the twin clutch gearbox from the Evo, and that car was amazing fun and the shifting was super smooth. Very racy.

[shin0bi]

The Cobalt SS is FAST. Blisteringly fast.
The Golf GTI is not as fast, but probably a bit more practical.
The Mazda 3 would also be really good for sport/practicality.

[mslbebiz]

^ Yeah, apparently the SS does the Car and Driver Lightning Lap as fast as the 350Z and the new Evo. Very, very impressive. It also just won a shootout between the Ralliart, WRX265 and MPS3. The MPS3 has been the top dog for a while, it placed third behind the SS and WRX.

I have to admit, the SS has a lot going for it - very fast, no lift shifts, great direct injection turbo motor, huge brembo brakes, very good gas mileage, and it's one of the most affordable of the bunch. But I'm having trouble getting over buying a $27,000 Cobalt... and it's not exactly the best looking car nor the best interior. Although I recently saw a new SS in white and it was better.

It's also wrong wheel drive. Ugh.

BTW: The new G8 GT in white :drool: GM's doing some amazing things lately, and their build and material quality is becoming top notch, and actually is top notch in some of their new vehicles (Aura, Malibu, CTS, Aura, G8, etc).

[HP2133]

gorgeous handling / price will be in the 42s unless you lease

360 HP, moved on from my previous BMW. Too expensive to maintain

Although "Deutschland uber alles", GT is better / cheaper than any of the 3 series BMWs that start at 40 and go up to 55 ... or wait till 2010, GXP with 400+ HP :love:


Pontiac G8 GT

[ZorroAMG]

1. Mini
2. GTI
3. WRX

[mslbebiz]

I talked to the guy at GM, and if you finance through another source besides GM credit it takes $4,500 off the price. It makes the price of the G8 GT I'd want only $33,000. That means the 360hp V8, bigger brakes, 11 speaker Blaupunkt stereo, remote start, 6 speed auto, and those gorgeous looks for just over $30k. That's a pretty wicked deal.

Of the cars I've driven so far, the ones that really stood out were the Mini Cooper S, the Mazdaspeed 3 (but maybe too boy racer-ish), the new Ralliart (it was just so much damn fun) and the G8 GT - this thing really does feel like a BMW or something European on the road, and the engine/handling/performance is phenomenal.

Mini has a lease special on '08 S's for $379 a month. The Ralliart was also about $33k + taxes, same as the G8 GT.

I'm really gonna have to test drive that GTI with DSG again, you guys keep recommending it. I'll go this weekend.

[gpomp]

add civic si to the list.

[HP2133]

HONDA Si : 197 HP for a 2009 car - not good enough
for a car in the 30+s, the Si is not worth it


remove that piece of welfare crap from the list

[HP2133]

G8 : That would be a smart buy. 4 / 80 comprehensive warranty as well. 360 HP in a gorgeous package.

Try the GTI though, creme de la creme of German Engineering. Interior is regular cheapy plastic, but power / weight in the GTI makes it a definite contender on your buy list. The TDI is not bad either, just got back to Vancouver on a tank of Diesel. Performs nice in the mountains due to turbo diesel.

Leave the japanese rice to the kids on the forum.



Originally posted by mslbebiz
if you finance through another source besides GM credit it takes $4,500 off the price. That means the 360hp V8, bigger brakes, 11 speaker Blaupunkt stereo, remote start, 6 speed auto, and those gorgeous looks for just over $30k. That's a pretty wicked deal.

[A2VR6]

Originally posted by HP2133
HONDA Si : 197 HP for a 2009 car - not good enough
for a car in the 30+s, the Si is not worth it


remove that piece of welfare crap from the list

Considering the first 3 cars mentioned in that list have around that much horsepower and the Cooper S and the GTI are in the 30's , I dont see why the Si shouldnt be considered...

:facepalm:

[gpomp]

Originally posted by HP2133
HONDA Si : 197 HP for a 2009 car - not good enough
for a car in the 30+s, the Si is not worth it


remove that piece of welfare crap from the list

Originally posted by HP2133
Try the GTI though, creme de la creme of German Engineering. Interior is regular cheapy plastic, but power / weight in the GTI makes it a definite contender on your buy list. The TDI is not bad either, just got back to Vancouver on a tank of Diesel. Performs nice in the mountains due to turbo diesel.

Leave the japanese rice to the kids on the forum.

you call the si underpowered yet you recommend the GTI which has 3 more hp and is 400+ lbs heavier? :facepalm:

not to mention a loaded GTI will be $10k more than the si?

[HP2133]

STi Killer : you are correct. GTI comes with a more expensive price tag. GTI has similar numbers for torque and power as your Si recommandation.

In the end : loaded German quality versus Japanese ? GTI


for your enjoyment, I have added some more reading. It will help both of us understand those 2 cars (and the Mini) even better than we do. Enjoy it http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article_id=3370


To the other replier : please don't add that overused face palm. It does not prove a point nor it is funny as it used to be. Novelty is gone, just like the old Pedobear sticker in my window.

[Cody D]

One of the things you may want to consider is the service department for each of these manufacturers. I've heard really bad things about a couple of them.

[redevil]

The Mini Cooper S and Subaru WRX get my vote!

I just picked up a Cooper S a couple of weeks ago and it is a blast to drive around, especially throught the mountains.

:thumbsup:

[sillysod]

i am assuming fuel consumption is of no consideration?

[-STi-]

Originally posted by mslbebiz
I have to admit, the SS has a lot going for it - very fast, no lift shifts, great direct injection turbo motor, huge brembo brakes, very good gas mileage, and it's one of the most affordable of the bunch. But I'm having trouble getting over buying a $27,000 Cobalt...

In case you haven't looked at the new SS. Jack Carter has a black SS turbocharge for $23,XXX on sale from $27,000. Just incase you didn't look already and the SS was someting you were still interested in I just thought I would let you know.

I was at jack carter on thursday (nov 6) i believe.

[Weapon_R]

23k is a bargain on the cobalt!

[rc2002]

Keep in mind the conditions in Calgary. A turbo GTI will be faster than a comparable NA vehicle with similar horsepower.

[speeed]

WRX265

[rp_guy]

Originally posted by AE92_TreunoSC
Drive them all, and stay away from the pontiac.


thanks for that ignorant comment.




wait for the 2010 camaro! hahaha:hitit:

[danno]

i have a gti, looking at things now i wish i had a 4 door. so i'd get 4 door gti or wrx265. civic si 4 door would be on my list.

[mslbebiz]

Well I test drove the GTI again today, an extended drive this time. I liked it a lot more -- it's a very nice refined car that's still economical and really fun to drive. The drivetrain is still jerky though with the DSG. Mainly when coming to a stop it gets kind of clunky, and when driving normally in traffic it's not real smooth. Other than that it was a great drive though.

For those that own a GTI or know people that do, how's it been as far as reliability and maintenance?

Looking at the WRX265 again, and it's probably the car I would buy if not for the $40,000 price tag. I think that's about what it comes to with tax and everything (???) I think the hatch is about $1k more which I prefer the looks of.

I also stopped by Mini again. The car I'd want is roughly $34,500 before tax. That's a tempting little package for sure.

Cody D, which service dept's have you heard bad things about? And is that for the entire manufacturer or just certain dealers? I'm in Edmonton, so it may not be applicable.

EDIT: Forgot to ask, anyone have any opinions on the new Volvo C30? I think it's a great looking car, and has lots of power but I've yet to drive it.

[pinoyhero]

Why not go used and get more car for your buck ... ie my M3?:thumbsup:

[mslbebiz]

Question: The last used car I financed was about 10 years ago, and I don't remember the length of the loan. How long can used cars generally be financed for? The longer the better IMO as there's no reason to pay more monthly than absolutely necessary (especially if you're like me and get bored of your vehicles in a couple years and plan to move on).

[nbaker00]

I can get you up to 96 months for a pre-owned car.
(Longer if you have large down payment on a high end car)

[mslbebiz]

nbaker00, do you ever get in any of the cars I'm looking at? Like a Mini Cooper S, WRX or GTI? I'll consider others as well. I'd seriously look at a Crossfire SRT-6, too. Some great deals on those cars out there now. Oh, and especially if any of the above car are in white.

PM me if you want.

[Cody D]

Originally posted by mslbebiz
Cody D, which service dept's have you heard bad things about? And is that for the entire manufacturer or just certain dealers? I'm in Edmonton, so it may not be applicable.

Actually Mazda was the one I was thinking about when I read your post, there's a member on here who had a lot of issues with his RX-8 and the service department avoiding blame. In Edmonton the only dealership I dealt with was Acura for my NSX and they were pretty good.


Originally posted by pinoyhero
Why not go used and get more car for your buck ... ie my M3?:thumbsup:

This is definitely the way I'd go, the OP's choices are nice cars, but an E46 M3 is just better.

[pinoyhero]

Originally posted by mslbebiz
Question: The last used car I financed was about 10 years ago, and I don't remember the length of the loan. How long can used cars generally be financed for? The longer the better IMO as there's no reason to pay more monthly than absolutely necessary (especially if you're like me and get bored of your vehicles in a couple years and plan to move on).

You need a finance class, the issue with ultra long payment plans its that you get stuffed paying interest.

[nbaker00]

Originally posted by mslbebiz
nbaker00, do you ever get in any of the cars I'm looking at? Like a Mini Cooper S, WRX or GTI? I'll consider others as well. I'd seriously look at a Crossfire SRT-6, too. Some great deals on those cars out there now. Oh, and especially if any of the above car are in white.

PM me if you want.
Pm'ed:thumbsup:

[finboy]

fyi, brand new domestic = :thumbsdow

then again, domestic = :thumbsdow

trust me

[Super_Geo]

Originally posted by pinoyhero
Why not go used and get more car for your buck ... ie my M3?:thumbsup:
+1

[Masked Bandit]

Out of all your choices I think the GM stuff is good bang for the buck. They've got fantastic warranty now too but you need to realise that resale is going to hurt simply due to the REPUTATION of domestics with higher milage. I don't think it's warranted with the latest offerings from GM (G8 GT is my personal vote btw) but it's just the way it is.

[mslbebiz]

You need a finance class, the issue with ultra long payment plans its that you get stuffed paying interest.

I'm fully aware that interest is higher, but it isn't bad IMO when you buy the right car that has good residual. The only real difference in the end is that you're making much lower payments allowing you to use your money for other things. That's just smart. Unless you plan to keep the car forever, long finance terms with the lowest payments possible will always be my recommendation.

[adamc]

I have a Porsche that would fit your requirements :)

Pretty excellent on gas too, better than my M5.
PLUS all wheel drive, and you can put the top down for summer cruising :)

[mslbebiz]

^ As much as I'd love to own a 911 -- believe me I've seriously looked into 996's as there's a lot out there around $30k -- I don't think I could afford the maintenance and the repairs. From everything I've read the reliability can be spotty at best.

The 911 is easily my favorite car of all time, and I'm sure I'll own one soon but I don't think I can swing it right now.

[Cody D]

911's have great reliability, the biggest problem with the 996's was the porous block (which is big I know), but if the car has enough mileage it either won't be a problem or it's already been fixed by Porsche.

Also the C4 is great in winter.

[nickyh]

We looked at the GTI before deciding on a mini, but after stepping out of VW it felt like it was missing something.

Mini Cooper S. Hands down.

Fun to drive, amazing fuel economy, and the cars can match your personality with the add ons.

It is a little on the pricey side for a small car and the space is not that great (gotta think ahead before heading to Costco to do a major shop - but that's why we have the SUV), but honestly we've been driving one for close to two months and still have the grin on the face.

Edmonton has a mini club, they joined us in Red Deer for a mini run - but don't know if they have a website yet.
www.minicalgary.com is the calgary club, check out the site for pics.

[treg50]

1. G8 GT, 2. Cobalt SS, 3. RSX Type-S

Pontiac G8 GT. You mentioned it in white? I just saw a white one yesterday, looks excellent I had to do double take while making a left turn, lol. The Cobalt SS sedan, like the G8 GT, is underestimated and underrated except by people who appreciate all cars. G8 GT and Cobalt SS aren't just top end they are world class. Don't take my word for it, I'm sure you've read the reviews and articles about the SS sedan and G8 GT. In Europe sold as the Vauxhall VXR8, it did quite well on Top Gear even on a wet track (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAPzkZ7QDcs). I really wish they'd tested it on dry!

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/6753/g8gtvxr8stiglapsr7.jpg

When it comes to resale value anyone who knows what they're looking at/ knows what they're talking about will pay what you realistically ask. From your list, the G8 GT and SS sedan redefine domestic brand cars, IMO.

RSX Type-S is tried and true, not the most powerful, and I think '06 had the better styling (final year I guess). MS3, maybe a little dated, SS performs better, MS3 has a hatch if you don't mind the hatch look. Cooper S is pretty cool, but I hear they're in the shop a lot, but that could be just the models before this years'.

[Eleanor]

Cobalt SS or GT :thumbsup:

[clem24]

LOL total hate for GM. That's what happens when the majority of beyonders are total import fan boys. I used to hate GM and I still do. But man, the G8 is one eye-catching car. Maybe it's because the G8 just sounds too much like the G6 or something. I am a total Subaru fan boy, but in all honesty (and I hate to admit this), I'd probably take the G8 over the new WRX anyday.

The Cobalt.. Not so much. I do admit that the Cobalt Sedan is actually a decent looker (for some reason I don't like the coupe) but it just screams cheap cheap cheap. But then again I guess it's probably the cheapest of the bunch. And for what, the price of a loaded Civic?

[Sorath]

i`d go either with the wrx or the new ralliart

[mslbebiz]

The G8 GT really is one helluva bang for the buck. I'm wondering how I'd fair with gas consumption though with that big V8 and all the driving I do. Seeing as I get paid a vehicle allowance I want it to cover my car payment AND gas.

I just got back from test driving a Crossfire SRT-6, and I have to say I liked that car A LOT. The prices on them are great, too. Very tempted...

I tried to test drive the new Cobalt SS, but they wouldn't let me. :dunno: Wanted a deposit first. Ummm, no. They even went so far as to compare it to the Corvette. As good a car as it may be, that was really sad.

Speaking of the Vettes, there's some great deals on C6's out there... if I could only figure out a way to drive a C6 Corvette through the Edmonton winter lol.

[bigbadboss101]

The G8 sounds like a good bang for the bucks, and the car is rare at this point. The AWD of the Subaru is nice (I have a Subaru as well), and some of the others you mentioned might be good deals.

Depends on your feeling on imports vs domestics. I have always owned Acuras, Hondas, Nissans. This past year I dipped into Audi (S4), and now I own a domestic. Never thought I would drive a domestic but I like the CTS-V.

If you go domestic, I would say G8. Don't worry much about gas mileage. Otherwise go with a more fuel efficient import.

[mslbebiz]

I love the CTS's. Another great car from GM, but unfortunately out of my price range at the moment.

A for gas mileage, I do need to consider it as I drive 2,500 - 4,000 km a month for work alone, not counting personal use. That's a lot of gas, and a lot of money if you're only getting 17 mpg.

[bituerbo]

Being realistic, if this is your only car you will want AWD. Even if you only 'need' it 10 days of the year, it's those 10 days that will make it worth it.

The new ralliart is a detuned EVO in a much more subtle package. WRX trannys are made of glass - with the Ralliart you're getting the dual-clutch transmission right out of the EVO - something built for more power.

I say it's a bargain compared to all the other cars you've listed.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by bituerbo
Being realistic, if this is your only car you will want AWD. Even if you only 'need' it 10 days of the year, it's those 10 days that will make it worth it.

The new ralliart is a detuned EVO in a much more subtle package. WRX trannys are made of glass - with the Ralliart you're getting the dual-clutch transmission right out of the EVO - something built for more power.

I say it's a bargain compared to all the other cars you've listed.

The Ralliart offers the most for the money. You get the EVO X 411B engine (with a smaller single scroll turbo). You get the TC-SST dual clutch transmission from the EVO X MR (minus super sport mode). You get the AWD system from the EVO IX that comes with ACD and three differentials (WRX only has one differential). You get EVO X aluminum hood and HID headlights (not available in the WRX 265). You can get the excellent EVO X Recaro seats (it's an option). You can also get a NAV system with 30gb HD (you can't even get NAV with a WRX 265).

The only minus is that fuel economy won't be great because the 4B11 tune from the factory is very rich and the car is heavy & AWD.

[mslbebiz]

Other than the handling, the new Ralliart was very impressive. That drivetrain and the sounds it made were intoxicating. And it rev matched downshifts much better than the DSG from VW IMO. The Ralliart understeered too much, but it did like to rotate it's rear around corners which makes for a lot of fun. Nothing a better set of tires wouldn't handle, and possibly lowering the car an inch or so.

It is one of the most expensive cars I've looked at though, at $36,000 or so out the door. And it has one of the worst fuel economy ratings. Surprisingly the new WRX265 is rated at 22mpg mixed driving, vs 17 or so for the new RA. That's very good for a car as capable as the WRX is. Better than the Cobalt SS even, at 20mpg mixed.

[rc2002]

Originally posted by mslbebiz
The Ralliart understeered too much, but it did like to rotate it's rear around corners which makes for a lot of fun.

:confused:

[clem24]

^^^ :rofl: :facepalm:

[mslbebiz]

^ What did I say? lol

[heavyD]

Originally posted by mslbebiz
^ What did I say? lol

You contradicted yourself. You said it understeers then you say oversteers around corners. Which one is it lol.

[mslbebiz]

Oh, it actually does both though. You'd probably say the same thing if you drove it. First the car pushes it's nose through the corner, then the further you get into it the rear starts coming around. So it goes into moderate understeer, then into a bit of a 4 wheel slide then transitions into some rotation of the rear. But it all starts out of moderate initial understeer.

The steering feel of the car is great, and I'm sure that with some wider tires the car would handle much better and stop sliding around so much.

[mslbebiz]

One question I had was why so many people are against RWD cars for the winter? Sure, AWD would be ideal but it's also usually a lot more expensive to get an entertaining car with AWD vs one with RWD.

Many people drive RWD cars, trucks and vans through the winter. Winter tires go a long way, and the best car I ever drove in the winter was RWD with studded winters.

Is it mainly just 'some' RWD cars, because of the power, ground clearance, or wheelbase? Granted the RWD I drove that was so good was not extremely powerful, but it didn't have a ton of ground clearance either.

I've heard great things about BMW's in the winter, because of their good weight distribution coupled with traction control. Cops drive powerful RWD cars through the winter as well.

FYI: This isn't meant to be another question about RWD cars in the winter. Rather, why many people think sporty RWD cars are so bad compared to sporty FWD or AWD? Again is it wheelbase, weight distribution, power, ground clearance, etc?

I'm pretty confident that all of those objections are nullified with some good skinnier winter tires, traction control, a car with good weight distribution and a good driver.

[clem24]

It all has to do with weight. FWD has so much weight up front that they can gain much more traction than a RWD. The other thing is that inexperienced drivers tend to fare much better with FWD because it won't spin as easily. AWD is the best of both worlds. BUT... all this only really applies to acceleration and cornerning. Going from FWD to AWD, you'll immediately see how amazing AWD is for accelerating in snow. But the most important (stopping) is almost always determined by speed and tires. A RWD with winter tires would be much more adept than a FWD with AS'es. If you want to really see the diff, wait for day with lots of snow and up a slight incline. Almost always you'll see FWD slowly gain traction, RWD spinning tires, and Subarus flying away from the intersection. :D

And don't listen to the bullshit from fan boys about drifting in AWD or RWD or never drifting with FWD. Any good driver can make a FWD do whatever they want it to do. (now just sitting back and waiting for all the fan boys to come in and spew their shit).

[mslbebiz]

^ Nice post!

The avg FWD sports car is roughly 60/40 weight distribution vs 50/50 for a RWD sports car, so the difference really isn't that much. Especially when you add 100lbs of sandbags over the rear wheels.

[HP2133]

not trustable


Originally posted by finboy
fyi, brand new domestic = :thumbsdow

then again, domestic = :thumbsdow

trust me

[dj techsta]

of those cars i'd recommend either the WRX or the RA (Ralliart)

downside to the RA is as mentioned before they ONLY come in the Twin Clutch SST, which means unless you like an automatic, this car isn't for you.

Personally i'd recommend the ralliart because it shares the same guts as the evo, and gives you a lot more room to grow on, the parts can be more easily interchanged with the higher end models and the S-AWC is awesome and really fun

(edit)
plus it's more unique than subaru's (one of the reasons why I went with mitsu in the first place).

[mslbebiz]

So I talked to another Chevy dealer today. They're offering $5,000 OFF the '09 Cobalt SS if you go with outside financing for 72 months or greater. And another $500 off in some sort of holiday bonus if you buy in November.

That makes a fully loaded SS only $23,000! I'm having a seriously hard time coming up with a good reason not to buy one of these for this price. At $30k it's quite a different story but a brand new car that laps the Nurburgring in 8:22 for $23k with all the options it has it a friggin steal. Only I wouldn't opt for the big rear spoiler, I like the looks of the small one more.

I'm torn between white and silver if I go with an SS. Opinions?

White: http://www.cobaltss.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2897006&postcount=37

Silver:
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f106/2009-cobalt-ss-turbo-0-60-5-8-1-4-14-flat-103-a-433782/index6.html

[HP2133]

power wise : very good choice.
Do they come in automatic ?

[supra_11]

Originally posted by Weapon_R
23k is a bargain on the cobalt!

:werd:

Friend just picked up an ss ~2-3 weeks ago, 22k, black, fully loaded, financing, Its fast, i'd be satisfied driving daily with that power anyday, he said its decent on gas, didn't get any numbers, one thing to consider, the back seats are pretty tight, not stupid uncomfortable but its not roomy at all, Trunks huge.

[HP2133]

apparently only manual

[clem24]

White 4 door.

[Aleks]

Originally posted by mslbebiz


For those that own a GTI or know people that do, how's it been as far as reliability and maintenance?



Had mine for just about a year now. 0 problems. DSG takes a little while to get used to. I find that turning the TC off makes the car a lot smoother as it doesn't cut the power abruptly.