Unions - For or Against

[nesterFortune]

All of this bailout talk now revolving around the auto industry, what are your opinions on UNIONS?? Have they bit the hand that FEEDS them? Or are they still looking out for the good guys?

[97'Scort]

If they want to make a product nobody wants, that's their problem. I shouldn't have to bail them out for screwing up. Hell, the government won't give me a student loan because I own a car.

Unions don't protect the common man. They are lobby groups for an industry and nothing more. They take and take, but all they really want is your money.

When I went to school at NAIT, I got hired to work as a computer lab monitor for minimum wage. Basically I sat in a lab and did my homework and made sure people didn't steal the computers. Pretty sweet gig.

Little did I know by getting a job there (this wasn't even in the employment agreement they gave me), I automatically joined AUPE, who helped themselves to $25/paycheque, which was only a $75 paycheque to begin with. Fuck the bastards.

Plus, all the field guys I've ever worked with who are non-union always seem much happier and much more likely to do what you'd like them to.

[yue]

unions = bad company management

[skyline19]

im part of the Local 170 pipe fitters union in the kootenays and i haven't had any trouble so far. when i moved here from Calgary i HATED unions but i was forced into one with my new job.

not gonna lie its been great thus far. Before when i wasn't in a union i was working straight time for 50+ hours a week, and if i was sick i just wouldn't get paid. Now i actually get paid what I'm worth including overtime and I have sick leave.

Now that i know what unionized life is like i would never go back to a non-union company. yeah paying them $75 a paycheck sucks for me but im just helping by contributing.

[97'Scort]

^ I will agree that for the tradespeople in contract positions, Union life is probably easier. But for a shop or plant environment where you're a part of the company, then I disagree.

[pinoyhero]

unions = death to incentive to succeed

[fcukda]

unions are like communism, they sound good on paper but fail in real life. productivity is much lower, and they force company to keep useless people around.

[pinoyhero]

^ I disagree ... they don't sound good on paper :poosie:

[Antonito]

It depends on the union, some are rather benign, and just do what they were supposed to, which is protect the union members from exploitation. But of course there are lots that are hellish bureaucracies that need complete overhauls, top to bottom.

I still say we should keep unions though, because although right now worker rights are pretty good, all it would take is a decade or 2 of heavy corporation-friendly government to make things go to shit, and then starting unions back up would be a very hard battle.

As far as the auto unions specifically, yeah, they needed to be more flexible given the reality of the situation. It's all well and good to point out the other reasons why things are failing, but at the end of the day, it is what it is.

[theken]

unions dont force companies to keep useless people around, people are so far out about unions.

I am at lafarge, teamsters, they just fired 2 people one of which was useless and the other had been there for 7 years.

the union takes around 50 a month but give us the best benefits you can get, a pension that after 20 years you take home the same amount that you normally make on a cheque and numerous other things.

I got screwed out of a day because someone junior to me worked and i didn't, i tell the union bam 12 hours on my next cheque.

I was against unions before i was in one, because i was uninformed i wouldn't go to a non union job (in my industry) again.

[pinoyhero]

Originally posted by theken
unions dont force companies to keep useless people around, people are so far out about unions.

I am at lafarge, teamsters, they just fired 2 people one of which was useless and the other had been there for 7 years.

the union takes around 50 a month but give us the best benefits you can get, a pension that after 20 years you take home the same amount that you normally make on a cheque and numerous other things.

I got screwed out of a day because someone junior to me worked and i didn't, i tell the union bam 12 hours on my next cheque.

I was against unions before i was in one, because i was uninformed i wouldn't go to a non union job (in my industry) again.

I have a question ... how long did the firing process take and what sort of settlement was LaFarge forced to pay?

Also, the union doesn't give you benefits, they bargain with LaFarge and LaFarge gives you benefits. There is no guarantee that your union's bargaining and $50 charge gets you more than you could in a non-union environment by outperforming others that having companies offer you better packages to keep you.

And let me get this straight ... the union is using other members' $50 to pay you because someone who wanted to work more than you (probably for less pay) got to?

Guess it works out though, you no longer have to worry about trying to excel since you've got some level of seniority. Trouble for industry and society is that you having your incentive stripped away is terribly inefficient. Just imagine how prodictive society would be if everyone had a reason to try.

[Tik-Tok]

Unions had their time, and place, years ago. Before we had government Labour Laws, back when people were working in HORRID conditions, with no regard for safety, and for negligible pay.

Now they're just another money-grubbing company out for their own interests, not their "members".

[msommers]

Originally posted by pinoyhero
unions = death to incentive to succeed

This. I couldn't believe how fucking lazy union works are when I worked up north. Everything should handed to them on a silver platter or "I'm going to the union, it says this in our union contract" blah blah blah. Meanwhile, I was also in a union but they did fuck all except "look into the problem" which was a genuine matter. Even since then I've sworn to never work for a company that has a union again.

[Eleanor]

Originally posted by Tik-Tok
Unions had their time, and place, years ago. Before we had government Labour Laws, back when people were working in HORRID conditions, with no regard for safety, and for negligible pay.
:werd:

During the industrial revolution, we needed unions, now we don't.

[vipstyle2]

Depends on the industry, wtf ? communism. what are you marxist ? If I were a rich banker in china i'd love communism.
If I were sick in the states and went to Cuba and couldnt afford health car or insurance do to huge hikes in cost's id LOVE communism. But union's, it depends on the industry really. It WAS thier choice to work for factory's with gas guzzling, non selling vehicles. Bail them out ?
I dont think so.. But there's proabably a shit load of employee's in the industry and they'll probably get it thier way rather than find a new job eles where like a smarter family would do.

[Canmorite]

I've heard that some union workers are getting outrageous pay to assemble cars. They helped drive GM and Ford into the ground with their pay and benefits scheme.

Talk about killing the golden goose.

[schocker]

I used to think they were ok, but after digging depper into it and taking a look at pay scales for example for the next few years, some of the increases in pay are percentages that a non union person would never dream of seeing and the companies have to build this into their costs.

[theken]

Originally posted by pinoyhero


I have a question ... how long did the firing process take and what sort of settlement was LaFarge forced to pay?

And let me get this straight ... the union is using other members' $50 to pay you because someone who wanted to work more than you (probably for less pay) got to?

Guess it works out though, you no longer have to worry about trying to excel since you've got some level of seniority. Trouble for industry and society is that you having your incentive stripped away is terribly inefficient. Just imagine how prodictive society would be if everyone had a reason to try.

Lafarge had to pay me for not working because they did not schedule me in, the union goes to the boss and tell them they were in the wrong. and nobody wants to work more than me, i got in 77 hours this week.

the firing process was instant with no settlement, there was a circumstance where they broke the rules, which i had no idea were even rules and they were fired, have not been back

There is no excelling when you are a truck driver, you do your job and do it the way it is suppose to be done. I do stuff beyond my job description such as last night, at 8 o'clock, my boss asks me if i could take another trip downtown, i had already been working for 13 hours, i said i don't really want to but if you need me to i will. thats the most excelling that goes on.

our union fights for our rights, not the wrongs, if you are an idiot you get fired. you probably work in an office and have no insight to what unions actually do for people

*edit lafarge also own foothills and they get paid less and have less benefits, they are non union

[Rocky]

Originally posted by Eleanor

:werd:

During the industrial revolution, we needed unions, now we don't.
Agree w/ this poster and poster's quoted poster.

I have to write a paper today on the biggest strike in Canadian history :(

[revelations]

Unions are great in certain industries/sectors - but their time has probably come for a lot of areas.

Our economy (Canada) is moving into a knowledge-based workforce which will make unions less and less desirable in some cases.

[skyline19]

my dad is working for Lafarge as well at the Exshaw plant as a millwright. and the only reason he is where he is right now was because he was part of the union. They paid for him to go to school for millwrighting and now they are paying for him to go to school for welding.

All this bullshit about all union workers being lazy can shove it. I can remember days when he came home and his hands and arms were bleeding from working. he would literally pass out on the couch. Dont get me wrong there are definitely some lazy people but their days are numbered.

As i stated above im also part of a union in BC at the Teck Cominco plant and i sure as shit dont fuck the dog. the harder i work the quicker i can go to school. and the quicker i go to school means i move up the seniority ladder faster.

[Antonito]

Originally posted by revelations
Unions are great in certain industries/sectors - but their time has probably come for a lot of areas.

Our economy (Canada) is moving into a knowledge-based workforce which will make unions less and less desirable in some cases.

This is very true, in situations where supply is somewhat at par with demand and the people are not easily replaceable, unions are not efficient. You can't simply replace someone at the drop of a hat and expect things to plug along

Theken has a good point though, there are a lot of jobs where people are basically expendable and the ability to "excel" is based solely on your ability to work as many hours as possible for the least amount of pay as possible. Not exactly the best way to climb the ladder.

This lesson is going to become even more apparent in areas where the economy slows, and people are completely expendable. At my current non-union construction job the bosses are licking their lips as they've mandated the following in light of the 10 or 20 resumes they are getting a week:

-anyone that wants a raise is fired, regardless of how good they are.

-if anyone doesn't work overtime (which is only paid out at regular pay), they're eventually fired

-more and more tools are to be supplied by the workers out of their own pockets.

-anyone complaining about unsafe work habits is going to get fired

And they know that the average person will not go to the labour board, because it's almost never worth it unless you can prove that you have years of owed overtime, and in trade basically word gets out that you're a "bad employee"

[FiveFreshFish]

Originally posted by theken


Lafarge had to pay me for not working because they did not schedule me in, the union goes to the boss and tell them they were in the wrong. and nobody wants to work more than me, i got in 77 hours this week.

Doesn't seem fair that Lafarge had to pay you 12 hours for labour you never performed, plus the hours for the junior guy who did the actual work.

If it was a scheduling error, why can't the union just force the company to schedule you for a bunch of future hours where the junior guys are supposed to work? I know it's not in the contract but it seems more fair. :dunno:

[swak]

i was working for a major plant in calgary, and got fired basically because me and the manager didn't get along.

From day 1, he was a dick...i didn't know he was the 'big guy' so i told him what i thought, a month later i got fired.

Talked to the union and they wouldn't do anything, and had no reason for not being able to get me my job back.

I hate unions.

[theken]

Originally posted by FiveFreshFish


Doesn't seem fair that Lafarge had to pay you 12 hours for labour you never performed, plus the hours for the junior guy who did the actual work.

If it was a scheduling error, why can't the union just force the company to schedule you for a bunch of future hours where the junior guys are supposed to work? I know it's not in the contract but it seems more fair. :dunno:

the reason is someone under me worked and I should have worked, I asked to work and they said no, so really it is their fault, that is in the contract, senior drivers start earlier and if there is no work nobody under a senior driver works while one stays home.
it is unfair that someone with less seniority works while someone else who has been there longer doesn't get paid that is the reasoning behind seniority, otherwise whats the point. We all get paid the same

[rece]

UNIONS BLOW!!!

I have been in a couple CUPE, AUPE and TWU and all of them had completely backwards business practices. TWU (telus mobility) during the strike, i was a new employee and they would not give me information on the strike and expected me to picket in order to get my union card. WTF

I work now with a bunch of usless asses in the government. I agree with some of the sentiments above. Unions protect mostly the usless, and hinder the productive.

At telus I was kept from advancment cause I was part of the union, eventhough I very openly shared my dislike of the union. I was basically told to leave and once my 6 months had passes for union to remove me to apply for the non union job. I did quit, but fuck going back after such shit treatment.

[dezmarez]

Originally posted by theken


the reason is someone under me worked and I should have worked, I asked to work and they said no, so really it is their fault, that is in the contract, senior drivers start earlier and if there is no work nobody under a senior driver works while one stays home.
it is unfair that someone with less seniority works while someone else who has been there longer doesn't get paid that is the reasoning behind seniority, otherwise whats the point. We all get paid the same


so what if the "junior" is better then you at your job, why should he not be allowed to work and you should get to because you've been their longer?

it should be the person who is the best at their job that should be getting all the hours

hence the reason unions are ridiculous

[pinoyhero]

Originally posted by theken


Lafarge had to pay me for not working because they did not schedule me in, the union goes to the boss and tell them they were in the wrong. and nobody wants to work more than me, i got in 77 hours this week.

the firing process was instant with no settlement, there was a circumstance where they broke the rules, which i had no idea were even rules and they were fired, have not been back

There is no excelling when you are a truck driver, you do your job and do it the way it is suppose to be done. I do stuff beyond my job description such as last night, at 8 o'clock, my boss asks me if i could take another trip downtown, i had already been working for 13 hours, i said i don't really want to but if you need me to i will. thats the most excelling that goes on.

our union fights for our rights, not the wrongs, if you are an idiot you get fired. you probably work in an office and have no insight to what unions actually do for people

*edit lafarge also own foothills and they get paid less and have less benefits, they are non union

77 hours in one week = overtime pay ... why not spread out the work so no one works over time and the company isn't left paying more than it has to to have work done?

Glad to hear that the union didn't get involved their members being instantly fired, if that was the case then seems fine to me.

If not excelling then efficiency is the key item that union strip. Back to my example of proper pay, the market should decide who gets paid what, if someone will do the job cheaper than you then LaFarge should be in a postion to make that choice, in this case they are not. If they can't do this and the rates they charge customers drops, again in the market, then they will be foreced into smaller margins and perhaps shutting down which is no god for them or the unionized workers. Seems extreme but I don't think I need to go into how many cases their have been during this recent down turn.

I do work in an office and love the fact that I get my whole paycheck, I can be rewarded for working harder (not just being more senior) and my company will not fall because of a union that doesn't operate with free-market priclples in a free market. This allows myself and the company I work for to excel.

[BrknFngrs]

Originally posted by dezmarez



so what if the "junior" is better then you at your job, why should he not be allowed to work and you should get to because you've been their longer?

it should be the person who is the best at their job that should be getting all the hours

hence the reason unions are ridiculous

I agree with this 100%.

The concept of seniority is the biggest problem with unions. How long a person has been with a place is only relevant if it somehow makes them better at the job than another person who has just started.

The fact that the union effectively prevents the company from having the junior drive by making them pay both of you is ridiculous. Nothing against you personally Ken, but if you're banking 75+ hours a week then it's probably much safer to have the junior behind the wheel.

[wiggaplz]

I don't know what the hell some of you are talking about...

UNIONS INCREASE NON-UNION wages. lol lol, that's how competition arises and wages go up. If it wasn't for unions, tradesman would be doing scabby work without any job security, or any real benefits.

Unions are great.

[jiggawhat]

UNIONS FTL and their SUPPORTERS FTL

[msommers]

Originally posted by wiggaplz
I don't know what the hell some of you are talking about...

UNIONS INCREASE NON-UNION wages. lol lol, that's how competition arises and wages go up. If it wasn't for unions, tradesman would be doing scabby work without any job security, or any real benefits.

Unions are great.

LOL

[Rat Fink]

.

[sabad66]

Unions are sweet! No other way I would have been paid $20.50/hour working at a golf course :rofl: :rofl:

[wiggaplz]

Originally posted by Rat Fink
In some cases unions are good, but in others definately not.

Do you honestly think a baggage handler for Air Canada should be making 35 dollars/hour when there are plenty of aircraft mechanics making less than that?

To me, the dummy who has been slinging bags most of his life really doesn't have the same value of that aircraft mechanic. He can be replaced in a second.....so why does he make as much as he does?....He is part of a Union :banghead:

there's no way a baggage handler makes 35 bucks an hour. my buddy did that and started out at like 12, after 6 months he was at something like 14 or 15.

i don't believe that lol...

[revelations]

Originally posted by Rat Fink
In some cases unions are good, but in others definately not.

Do you honestly think a baggage handler for Air Canada should be making 35 dollars/hour when there are plenty of aircraft mechanics making less than that?

To me, the dummy who has been slinging bags most of his life really doesn't have the same value of that aircraft mechanic. He can be replaced in a second.....so why does he make as much as he does?....He is part of a Union :banghead:

Thats wierd, I was going to post EXACTLY that same thing, but changed my mind last minute.

The CAW shot themselves in the foot... guys were making 24-25/hr smashing bags back in 2003, where as I was making 23/hr fixing jet engines.... so AC let go a whole whack load of people (myself included) and just contracted out instead.

[dezmarez]

Originally posted by sabad66
Unions are sweet! No other way I would have been paid $20.50/hour working at a golf course :rofl: :rofl:



u must work for the city?
because most golf courses are private...
but if you work hard at those courses whose to say you won't be making $20.50??

[craigcd]

Unions=Inflation

[Rat Fink]

.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by Rat Fink

I think at one point (not sure if its still the case) the baggage handlers managed to piggyback themselves into the same union the AMEs are part of so that is why some of those useless ramp rats make so much.


Yep, still the case too. To get more numbers, the union got the baggage chuckers onboard.



Originally posted by wiggaplz


there's no way a baggage handler makes 35 bucks an hour. my buddy did that and started out at like 12, after 6 months he was at something like 14 or 15.

i don't believe that lol...

It's true for old school Air Canada guys. Before their bankruptcy bag chuckers made the same wages as AME's. In fact everyone who was part of the union BEFORE the concessions still makes the same as AME's ($35/hour).

Anyone hired after the concessions however is on a completely different payscale (Bag handler OR AME).

Doesn't it feel nice to know that the people keeping your planes in the air don't make a dollar more than the people loading the bags? In fact most AME's keeping the aircraft you're sitting uncomfortably in, are paid less than buddy turning wrenches working on soccer moms mini-van.

Think about that, next time you're in the air. :D

[revelations]

^ that was one of the reasons I got out of aviation.

They hose you on the pay because (for me) it was a "cool" job to be working on the heavy iron.

[theken]

Originally posted by dezmarez



so what if the "junior" is better then you at your job, why should he not be allowed to work and you should get to because you've been their longer?

it should be the person who is the best at their job that should be getting all the hours

hence the reason unions are ridiculous
different type of job i am explaining, there is no better, there is no work harder than the next guy, the job is very simple, get concrete in your truck, drive where your supposed to and unload it, there is no doing more work, so at my job, seniority is key, otherwise it turns into a who can suck cock and get hours match.

lets say at your job you have been with your company for 10 years, and they hire a guy with less experience and less knowledge, but, in your line of work you depend on overtime, you want to work more then 40 hours a week. But this new guy is getting the 50-60 hour weeks and your only getting 30, would you not bitch and wonder why he is getting more hours?

[cam_wmh]

Originally posted by rece
UNIONS BLOW!!!

I have been in a couple CUPE, AUPE and TWU and all of them had completely backwards business practices. TWU (telus mobility) during the strike, i was a new employee and they would not give me information on the strike and expected me to picket in order to get my union card. WTF

I work now with a bunch of usless asses in the government. I agree with some of the sentiments above. Unions protect mostly the usless, and hinder the productive.

At telus I was kept from advancment cause I was part of the union, eventhough I very openly shared my dislike of the union. I was basically told to leave and once my 6 months had passes for union to remove me to apply for the non union job. I did quit, but fuck going back after such shit treatment.

Let me get this straight. You hate Unions. You took a job with one. Hated it. Took a job with another Union. Hated it. Took another job with another Union. Hated it.

Was this surprising to you? Why do you apply, and finally ACCEPT a unionized job?

I hope this doesn't come as news here slick, but you are an idiot.

[scboss]

Currently i am at a job with a union, the pros are
- Safety is always first priority
- everyone is treated the same
- job security(seniority)
- top wages/benefits/vacations
Cons
- the odd lazy bastard but there are always loopholes in contracts to weed them out
- bonus's earned as a team and not for a single person working hard
- a few people can screw it for everyone. For example some peeps decided to miss a shitload of work so now we can only have 8 unexcused days a year(no doctors note or not planned off).
I think unions are needed in large companies to protect the workers. I have seen my company pull some messed stuff and we have a union.

[Supa Dexta]

Originally posted by warcaster
I think unions are needed in large companies to protect the workers. I have seen my company pull some messed stuff and we have a union.

How does that make sense? Michelin is a large company back in NS and has ran fine for the last 35+ yrs union free.

Actually heres a neat union story>

The pulp mill right across the road HAS a union... They just got new management and were seeing where they can cut some waste, or else the place was going to shut down.. Out of 5 forklifts, supposed to be running two, 12hr shifts a day, 7 days a a week.. They were wired with hour monitors and had a COMBINED total hours logged of 78... In a week! Out of a possible 840 hours(yes of course not all 840 could be worked, but you get the point).... So there you have 14 shifts, performing 78 hours of actual work... Needless to say, there are major cuts going on as we speak.

[aram1000]

this is an interesting debate, to me, before there were labor standards, unions were definately needed, but to me, the workforce now is far different then before which makes me question the real value a union has to offer. I can see for some laborers how unions can be of benefit, especially when it comes to things such as worker safety, but for more white collar type jobs, or repetitive service jobs, i don't see their value. I have worked in both union and non union work environments, and all i can say from my experience is when i worked in the union environment, there were lots of people who were not qualified for their jobs, however had the jobs they did because of the union, to me that's not right. I agree, there isn't much incentive to work to your full potential in a union environment, again from my own experience, when i was in the unionized work environment, i was encouraged by my peers to be lazy to their status quo rather then do my best, while that may not sound bad, for someone who wants to perform and move ahead, that attitude is discouraging. Again though, they do look out for workers rights, which is something i can't argue against. However, as we have seen in the auto sector, the unions can be the end of an industry, especially when they take hard line stances, and demand so much without looking at the bigger picture, rather then valuing the life of the industry and jobs for future, members in the auto workers union only wanted to ensure they would be taken care of today, which won't do them much good when the big 3 are bankrupt and there are no jobs to be had. Again, i am a believer in a skilled workforce, and when you have skills and knowledge which the market values, things will work out in my eyes and one will be rewarded accordingly.

[rece]

Originally posted by cam_wmh


Let me get this straight. You hate Unions. You took a job with one. Hated it. Took a job with another Union. Hated it. Took another job with another Union. Hated it.

Was this surprising to you? Why do you apply, and finally ACCEPT a unionized job?

I hope this doesn't come as news here slick, but you are an idiot.

The hatred towards unions only came after the second job and at the end of the day, it is not the union that I work for. Problem is that it is the union that stagnates the job so that people work to the lowest denomination. I have since found a new job, non union and I will be rewarded for my hard work.

Unions have no real place in modern workforces. It in the end only really costs the end user as the union only has the interests of the union in mind. Case in point - look to the auto industry the big 3 are due for huge faliure and it will be the union that makes it nearly if impossible for these companies to get back up and running. (note I also blame the lack in quality in the 90's and shit development since for the loss in consumer confidence)

And finally, yes I was dumb to think that a different union would be handeled and managed differently. Again I feel that UNIONS SUCK.

[HuMz]

All depends on the industry. Im an electrician and ill take better benefits, higher rate, and big overtime with the union over alot of the non union outfits in the city who refuse to pay overtime.

[Euro838]

Originally posted by aram1000
However, as we have seen in the auto sector, the unions can be the end of an industry, especially when they take hard line stances, and demand so much without looking at the bigger picture, rather then valuing the life of the industry and jobs for future, members in the auto workers union only wanted to ensure they would be taken care of today, which won't do them much good when the big 3 are bankrupt and there are no jobs to be had. Again, i am a believer in a skilled workforce, and when you have skills and knowledge which the market values, things will work out in my eyes and one will be rewarded accordingly.

I'd agree to a certain point here. It's only visible because we see unions as contracts to a company which must be adhered to so whether the company is raking in record profits or record losses, the terms of the contract/agreement must be followed.

At the same time though, the non-union workers are probably not willing to take a pay-cut to help/save the company. I don't think the CEO of Ford is going to give back any of his $28 Million salary last year even though the company is bleeding hard! Heck, most of the executives won't even give up their private jets.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/WallStreet/story?id=6285739&page=1

It seems unions make a big part of the picture but ultimately it's the non-union people that make/break a company.

I am against unions because it does not allow for much flexibility and cause poor performance symptoms because of the perceived job security.

At the same time, I don't think it's entirely the unions' fault for the demise of any corporation.

Everyone wants a big piece of the pie so when the big three were raking in record profits in the late 90s when SUVs were hot, the unions wanted a piece of that. It's the same thing that we've been seeing in the oilsands where it used to only require US$40/barrel to break even. Now the cost is probably US$80+ per barrel and projects are being scrapped because it's no longer profitable at today's oil prices.

[lint]

Originally posted by theken
different type of job i am explaining, there is no better, there is no work harder than the next guy, the job is very simple, get concrete in your truck, drive where your supposed to and unload it, there is no doing more work, so at my job, seniority is key, otherwise it turns into a who can suck cock and get hours match.

I think this sums up why many are opposed to unions. "no better", "no work harder than the nest guy", "job is very simple", "no doing more work". Typically increased seniority = increased experience = increased knowledge = increased expertise = increased pay. Based on what you've described, increased seniority = increased time on earth. Stop.


Originally posted by theken
lets say at your job you have been with your company for 10 years, and they hire a guy with less experience and less knowledge, but, in your line of work you depend on overtime, you want to work more then 40 hours a week. But this new guy is getting the 50-60 hour weeks and your only getting 30, would you not bitch and wonder why he is getting more hours?

If you've been with a company for 10 years and can't do a job better than someone just hired, are you really an asset to the company?

Unions prevent those easily replaced from being easily replaced.

And can someone explain why so many union workers rely on overtime? And treat it as part of their regular income?

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0509/19/A01-318432.htm


Gray didn't lose his job. His health isn't failing, and he is not going through a divorce -- the typical reasons many declare bankruptcy.

Gray has been losing overtime. His gross pay was cut $16,000 one year, sliding to $87,000, and may dip again because Delphi is considering a Chapter 11 filing.

"You count on something your whole life and then it gets jerked around," Gray said.

While layoffs have soared, it's often autoworkers still on the job who are drowning in debt.

Loss of overtime is one of the top reasons autoworkers have sought bankruptcy protection the past four years, say attorneys for UAW Legal Service Plan. The plan provides free legal aid to UAW members, retirees and immediate family members.

[dezmarez]

Originally posted by theken

different type of job i am explaining, there is no better, there is no work harder than the next guy, the job is very simple, get concrete in your truck, drive where your supposed to and unload it, there is no doing more work, so at my job, seniority is key, otherwise it turns into a who can suck cock and get hours match.


wow is all i can say to this...no wonder u love unions

[scboss]

Originally posted by lint


If you've been with a company for 10 years and can't do a job better than someone just hired, are you really an asset to the company?

Unions prevent those easily replaced from being easily replaced.




What would you do if you were better then the new person doing the same job but they got rid of you because he gets paid less? Trust me unions suck balls sometimes but they have advantages. What if you were 60 and at a company for 25 years and some 18 year old came in and was faster then you, should they let you go?

[msommers]

How this thread didn't die on page 1 is astounding.

[aram1000]

I agree Euro838, it is the management at the top who can make or break a company, and the CEO's of the Big three definately played a huge part, i don't disagree there. I know my assessment appeared one sided, but i do acknowledge that the corporate brass isn't much better, if at all. They gave poor direction to the industry and are now paying the price.

The link lint posted is a very good read, and all i can say after reading it is i don't have much sympathy for these workers. When guys are going bankrupt for not scaling back lifestyles they can't afford, they are responsible for the consequences, and shouldn't be relying on overtime to live such lavish lifestyles. Its good that they were able to make a good living doing what they did, but to expect to be paid in 6 figures and to have all the overtime you want, I can't say i feel sorry for these guys.

[lint]

Originally posted by warcaster
What would you do if you were better then the new person doing the same job but they got rid of you because he gets paid less? Trust me unions suck balls sometimes but they have advantages. What if you were 60 and at a company for 25 years and some 18 year old came in and was faster then you, should they let you go?

You've missed the point. theken stated there is no difference. there is no doing the job better or worse, everyone does it the same. so the only difference is that he's been there longer, doing the same work as someone fresh into the position and feels he should get more perks for seniority.

In your scenario, the company isn't making a logical decision. I get paid more AND I do the job better. If they get rid of me, the may be saving money on salary but may be losing money on any of the areas where I'm better than the new guy.

If I have 25 years of experience, I should be better than the guy who was just hired. Period. If I was in a union though, that probably means I've been hanging around collecting a paycheck for longer.

But you've highlighted one of the fundamental differences of opinion in discussions of unions or not. Those who support unions tend to disconnect tenure and seniority from skill, experience and knowledge. Whereas those who don't support unions tend to feel that being paid what you're worth is directly tied to what you can do. And the longer you've been doing something, the better you're able to do it.

And I'm not saying unions don't have their advantages. I already said that unions prevent those who are easily replaced from being replaced.

[71/454]

Originally posted by revelations


Thats wierd, I was going to post EXACTLY that same thing, but changed my mind last minute.

The CAW shot themselves in the foot... guys were making 24-25/hr smashing bags back in 2003, where as I was making 23/hr fixing jet engines.... so AC let go a whole whack load of people (myself included) and just contracted out instead.
Ok, this guy is full of it. The CAW represents the ticket agents not the baggage handlers or AME's, they are the IAM. In 2003 Ac laid off a bunch of people but they did not contract out any work that was performed by the unionized workers, that would be against their contract. They did however outsource their non unionized HR department to an outside company, and yes all the human resources people lost their jobs. So again, who is voting for the unions?
As far as you fuctards that think Air Canada pays baggage handlers 35 an hour, give your head a shake and then go look it up. All the union pay scales are available on the internet.
http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Employer=Air_Canada/Hourly_Rate

[lint]

Originally posted by 71/454
As far as you fuctards that think Air Canada pays baggage handlers 35 an hour, give your head a shake and then go look it up. All the union pay scales are available on the internet.
http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Employer=Air_Canada/Hourly_Rate

That's not a union pay scale site. It's a voluntary survey, with an average based on 4 baggage handlers. How about a larger and more representative sample size?

[WhippWhapp]

Unions protect the lazy...

[71/454]

Originally posted by lint


That's not a union pay scale site. It's a voluntary survey, with an average based on 4 baggage handlers. How about a larger and more representative sample size?

You want me to go out and conduct a larger sample for you?:rofl:
I can find the research to support my assertion that baggage handlers don't make 35 an hour, but all you guys can do is make claims based on nothing. The website I gave is an example, no not a union website, but I'm not going to do your homework for you.
But now let's say that I agree with you and baggage handlers do make 35 an hour. You say they are lazy union guys that don't deserve it, but their union negotiated it and got them a ridiculous amount for doing nothing. Does that make them dumber, or smarter than you? Again, who's a fan of unions?
You know what, I've changed my tune, I heard Air Canada Baggage handlers make 35 an hour too! I like it. And when you compare that to Westjet's non unionized work group making 16 an hour, that makes the union look pretty good. Would you rather get paid alot less to do the same job just to be non union because you hate them?