British Citizens Faced Jail Time for Pre Marital Sex in Dubai [Archive] - Beyond.ca - Car Forums

kenny

11-25-2008, 02:33 PM

Two British citizens were spared jail time in an appeal of the original 3 month sentence for:

1. Sex outside of wedlock and;
2. Sex in public

Under Islamic law, public display of affection is illegal.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/11/25/dubai-britons.html

Thoughts? This article reminded me of previous cases where Canadian law was bent or changed to accomodate foreigners/immigrants. Dubai, which markets itself to the Western world as a tourist destination enforces their law as written, even when it comes to tourists.

pepschnops

11-25-2008, 02:40 PM

Super lucky for them. Although something like this would be treated lightly in Canada it doesn't mean that it should apply in Dubai.

I'm actually really surprised that the ruling came out in favor of the Brits. Usually Islamic law is very strict and it's interesting to the see that original verdict was overruled. Regardless I think it's a good lesson for the both of them and a good example for others - if your visiting another country understand the culture and norms. It could have ended up a lot worse for these two.

bulaian

11-25-2008, 02:40 PM

Laws should be enforced for both citizens of the country and tourists the same.

People should be aware of laws before visiting another country

A790

11-25-2008, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by bulaian
Laws should be enforced for both citizens of the country and tourists the same.

People should be aware of laws before visiting another country
A country shouldn't market itself as a tourist destination if it intends to alienate the very market it's promoting itself to. That just doesn't make sense.

Canmorite

11-25-2008, 02:46 PM

Jailtime for sex/pre marital sex. Sounds like an exciting city :rofl:

bulaian

11-25-2008, 02:47 PM

A country can still be a tourist destination without allowing for people to have sex on a beach.

Canada is a tourist destination too and if they were caught doing the same thing here, they would be arrested also.

EDIT: not for premarital sex... but sex in a public place

sea of ash

11-25-2008, 02:51 PM

This reminds of this other case:

Man Jailed for 4 Years for Speck of Marijuana on Shoe Sole (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23436226-details/Briton+jailed+in+Dubai+after+officials+find+cannabis+weighing+less+than+a+grain+of+sugar+under+his+shoe/article.do)

they definitely got off easy when compared to this.

but ya, why advertise yourself as a tourist spot for westerners if you're gonna enforce all these strict rules.

max_boost

11-25-2008, 02:54 PM

That's insane. Time to scratch Dubai off my list of places to visit. :nut:

kenny

11-25-2008, 03:09 PM

When their trial began in August, Palmer denied she had sex with Acors, saying instead the two were merely hugging and kissing.

Funny thing here is, she'd still be guilty for their public display of affection.

Imagine visiting Dubai and getting busted for walking down the street holding hands with your significant other and having to pay a huge fine... that'd suck!

LadyLuck

11-25-2008, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by max_boost
That's insane. Time to scratch Dubai off my list of places to visit. :nut:

Nahh, just dont have sex in public and you should be fine :thumbsup:

bubbley

11-25-2008, 03:46 PM

Scary..isnt dubai supposed to have a shit load of escorts?? how does that work

dezmarez

11-25-2008, 03:58 PM

fuck that place
like seriously
read that article for the guy who got 4 years for having trace amounts of mairjuna not visible to the human eye on his shoe

speedracer

11-25-2008, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by max_boost
That's insane. Time to scratch Dubai off my list of places to visit. :nut:
Yup

Originally posted by LadyLuck

Nahh, just dont have sex in public and you should be fine :thumbsup:

Article says - hugging and kissing

Originally posted by dezmarez
fuck that place
like seriously
read that article for the guy who got 4 years for having trace amounts of mairjuna not visible to the human eye on his shoe

And the other guy with melatonin got arrested as well- wtf

Yup - Dubai is off the list for travel.

googe

11-25-2008, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by bulaian
A country can still be a tourist destination without allowing for people to have sex on a beach.

Canada is a tourist destination too and if they were caught doing the same thing here, they would be arrested also.

EDIT: not for premarital sex... but sex in a public place

They'd be told to knock it off and sent on their way. At worst they'd get fined. Doing jail time for it is just ridiculous.

Very screwed up country.

A search by customs officials uncovered a speck of cannabis weighing just 0.003g - so small it would be invisible to the naked eye and weighing less than a grain of sugar - on the tread of one of his shoes.
4 years in jail for that.

One man has even been jailed for possession of three poppy seeds left over from a bread roll he ate at Heathrow Airport.

A 25-year-old Briton who was found with a similar speck in one pocket as he arrived on holiday has been awaiting sentence since November.

Meanwhile a Big Brother TV executive has so far been held without charge for five days after being arrested for possessing the health supplement melatonin.

The authorities claim to have discovered 0.01g of hashish in his luggage.

"Customs authorities are using highly sensitive new equipment to conduct extremely thorough searches on travellers and if they find any amount - no matter how minute - it will be enough to attract a mandatory four-year prison sentence."

Mrs Wolthuizen added: "We even have reports of the imprisonment of a Swiss man for 'possession' of three poppy seeds on his clothing after he ate a bread roll at Heathrow.

badatusrnames

11-25-2008, 04:35 PM

They are going to have a serious image problem if things such as this continue to happen. For example:

http://www.orange.co.uk/entertainment/celebrity/3537.htm

kokanee27

11-25-2008, 06:12 PM

the court also upheld a 1,000 dirham ($340) fine imposed on both for drinking alcohol
also from the op's article :nut: :nut:

mekeni

11-25-2008, 07:10 PM

they are still lucky...

blownz

11-26-2008, 09:42 AM

Just goes to show you how bad things are in other middle east countries when this is as good as it gets for tourists.

My father-in-law has worked in many countries around there including Dubai and he said the governments and people there are so stupid and racist that it has unfortunately made him racist when he spends time back in Calgary because of how he is treated there.

3g4u

11-26-2008, 10:00 AM

Thats crap. The best answer here is to not visit Dubai! I remember hearing on the news in germany last month that some canadian woman got arrested in Dubai and detained for a lenghty period of time or something of the sort because she had a couple drinks at the airport during a 15 hour layover.:thumbsdow

I found the article.
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=58214e3c-e43f-46b8-8856-7a61ca021909

revelations

11-26-2008, 10:33 AM

And the UAE is "supposed" to be the more liberal Arab state - compared to Saudis for eg. and Iran.

Yep, one has to be very aware of the absurdity of these countries' laws before entering - especially during Ramadan.

mark4091

11-26-2008, 11:08 AM

I never really understood why anybody would pay money to visit Dubai.

sea of ash

11-26-2008, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by revelations
And the UAE is "supposed" to be the more liberal Arab state - compared to Saudis for eg. and Iran.

haha iran is definitely not like that man. people drink and party just as much as here, it's a lot easier to get around the government restriction and keep stuff like that hidden even though technically based on the laws set by the bastards set its technically just as super strict as dubai.

Toms-SC

11-26-2008, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by kenny

Under Islamic law, public display of affection is illegal.

Religion

Godfuader

11-26-2008, 03:35 PM

I heard in the backwards nation of Canada, for jaywalking in downtown, you get a ticket!!! What kind of country calls itself a tourist hotspot and penalizes people for something so miniscule?? As well, if you use the Greyhound bus service, there is a very high probability that someone will stab you in your sleep.

There is ALOT of ignorance in the thread. Everyone always bitches how lax the Canadian law is, but bitches when another country actually upholds their laws? How about adhering to the law of the land. :rolleyes:

malcolmk14

11-26-2008, 03:41 PM

I've always found Dubai A LOT less strict than the other middle-eastern countries. These stories surprise me.

kenny

11-26-2008, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by Godfuader
There is ALOT of ignorance in the thread. Everyone always bitches how lax the Canadian law is, but bitches when another country actually upholds their laws? How about adhering to the law of the land. :rolleyes:

This is why I posted this thread. Remember all the hoopla surrounding the kirpan in schools? This is Canada, yet we bend the rules and allow weapons into school because it is a religious symbol. There was an incident earlier this year where a kirpan was used as a weapon to attack another student.

BerserkerCatSplat

11-26-2008, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by Toms-SC

Religion

Good times.

dezmarez

11-26-2008, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by Godfuader
I heard in the backwards nation of Canada, for jaywalking in downtown, you get a ticket!!! What kind of country calls itself a tourist hotspot and penalizes people for something so miniscule?? As well, if you use the Greyhound bus service, there is a very high probability that someone will stab you in your sleep.

There is ALOT of ignorance in the thread. Everyone always bitches how lax the Canadian law is, but bitches when another country actually upholds their laws? How about adhering to the law of the land. :rolleyes:

what are you talking about?
the guy got 4 years in jail for having marijuna not visible to the eye on his shoe!!
4 years in jail give me a fucking break
and so i say again, fuck that place, and their "laws of their land"
...in the articles it says u can be held in possesion of durgs/alcohol if its still in your system!!

kirberman

11-26-2008, 09:05 PM

Originally posted by Godfuader
I heard in the backwards nation of Canada, for jaywalking in downtown, you get a ticket!!! What kind of country calls itself a tourist hotspot and penalizes people for something so miniscule?? As well, if you use the Greyhound bus service, there is a very high probability that someone will stab you in your sleep.

There is ALOT of ignorance in the thread. Everyone always bitches how lax the Canadian law is, but bitches when another country actually upholds their laws? How about adhering to the law of the land. :rolleyes:

I completely agree. It seems anything that doesn't abide by the oh so mighty western way of thinking, is completely absurd and the culture is not worth your time of day to try to understand it. Textbook ignorance. You may not need to agree with these customs but to a whole other side of the world, that is how they live and should be respected.

dezmarez

11-26-2008, 09:31 PM

kirberman

11-26-2008, 10:40 PM

Originally posted by dezmarez

haha ya and im sure over there they show the same sort of respect for us westerners

Well, they kinda do. When was the last time you heard a UAE citizen on vacation breaking our laws here and having their government raising hell trying to prove their innocent when they are in fact guilty? Guaranteed everyone would be up in arms if an foreigner performs a criminal act here that requires prison time and their government just comes and bails them out without a fuss. I am a born and raised Canadian/Westerner but I really cannot stand the arrogance we have here even in Canada. It's so pretentious to think that our laws should be standard an no other laws should apply no matter who's land we are on.

EDIT: This is regarding the OP and not the marijuana thing as that evidence is circumstantial and he's most likely innocent.

googe

11-26-2008, 10:56 PM

no, that nonsense deserves no respect. they don't get a pass by saying "it's our way of life and what we believe", bullshit is bullshit, and its bad for ya.

bashir26

11-26-2008, 10:57 PM

Isn't Sex outside illegal in canada?

revelations

11-27-2008, 12:46 AM

incident exposure, public nudity..... summary conviction offence, punishable by a ticket usually

Godfuader

11-27-2008, 01:18 AM

Originally posted by kenny

This is why I posted this thread. Remember all the hoopla surrounding the kirpan in schools? This is Canada, yet we bend the rules and allow weapons into school because it is a religious symbol. There was an incident earlier this year where a kirpan was used as a weapon to attack another student.
I understand your point, but the whole legalizing of the kirpan in school was something that went thru the legal system and became law. There was no bending of the law. It was a controversial decision, one I disagree with...but its the law of the land I am living in. I think its silly to allow kirpans in school, just like anyone may think its wrong to penalize pre-marital / public sex...but its law of our land and its the law of their land. We just have to adhere to it.

billy36

11-27-2008, 01:29 AM

Originally posted by max_boost
That's insane. Time to scratch Dubai off my list of places to visit. :nut:

+1

Boat

11-27-2008, 03:19 AM

Originally posted by Godfuader
I heard in the backwards nation of Canada, for jaywalking in downtown, you get a ticket!!! What kind of country calls itself a tourist hotspot and penalizes people for something so miniscule?? As well, if you use the Greyhound bus service, there is a very high probability that someone will stab you in your sleep.

There is ALOT of ignorance in the thread. Everyone always bitches how lax the Canadian law is, but bitches when another country actually upholds their laws? How about adhering to the law of the land. :rolleyes:

God & Kirber: So you think that drug rule is fair?
If it happened to you, you would agree with the sentence and rot for 4years in a dubai prison?

The people are bitching about the extremity of the laws not the fact of upholding of them.

kirberman

11-27-2008, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by Boat

God & Kirber: So you think that drug rule is fair?
If it happened to you, you would agree with the sentence and rot for 4years in a dubai prison?

The people are bitching about the extremity of the laws not the fact of upholding of them.

I definitely don't think it is fair but as I stated before, the evidence is circumstantial and the party at hand is most likley innocent so he doesn't deserve the punishment. My opinion is for those who are in fact guility of a crime. It may not be a crime in their native country, but it still is a crime to where they are being penalised. It's like someone coming to Canada and drives a car at an excess of 40km/h and gets a ticket. In his home country XYZ it is accepted and not punished so therefore should he not be punished. While he is endangering our lives by driving that fast is he entitled to his own laws or ours? Where do we draw the line?

It seems people here are thinking about this with too much emotion and putting themselves in the place of the couple. And of course none of us would want to be punished for such a minor misdemeanor. But the law has to be abided by or there would be chaos. The UAE citizens would see this and object just as we would if someone drove way over the speed limit here and never got punished as we would. Laws are made for a reason and if broken must pay the consequences. It is up to you to know the laws of where you are, otherwise it's YOUR fault for no learning them. Don't blame the culture or the beliefs of another just because you don't agree with it.

sea of ash

11-27-2008, 05:38 PM

you guys that are saying it was simply a case of upholding the country's law...

In regards to the second article, you still think that the mere fact that he probably stepped on a practically invisible piece of weed and got 4 years in jail for it is justified?

Godfuader

11-27-2008, 09:04 PM

googe

11-27-2008, 10:07 PM

all stupid laws should be repealed no matter where they are. dangerous driving laws are not stupid, they are obvious. laws about chewing gum or getting it on on the beach, are stupid. don't rationalize stupid punishments for stupid laws by comparing them to obvious laws, it doesn't work. if there is no victim or potential victim, there is no crime.

and if you go 40km/h over the speed limit, you get a ticket. it might ruin your day. this is nothing like going to prison for 4 years.

randedge

11-28-2008, 06:35 PM

Originally posted by kirberman

I completely agree. It seems anything that doesn't abide by the oh so mighty western way of thinking, is completely absurd and the culture is not worth your time of day to try to understand it. Textbook ignorance. You may not need to agree with these customs but to a whole other side of the world, that is how they live and should be respected.

Don't worry too much. Pretty soon, where the global economy is going, the west will be in the shits and will no longer be the self ordained righteous leader in all matters relating to human society and human enterprise. It's with this possibility that I sometimes wish I would live long enough to witness the west's decline and ultimate downfall.

Destinova403

11-28-2008, 11:13 PM

Originally posted by randedge

Don't worry too much. Pretty soon, where the global economy is going, the west will be in the shits and will no longer be the self ordained righteous leader in all matters relating to human society and human enterprise. It's with this possibility that I sometimes wish I would live long enough to witness the west's decline and ultimate downfall.

um... hate to burst your bubble... but you live in the west... and im pretty sure your life/livelyhood depends on its survival.

A790

11-28-2008, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by randedge

Don't worry too much. Pretty soon, where the global economy is going, the west will be in the shits and will no longer be the self ordained righteous leader in all matters relating to human society and human enterprise. It's with this possibility that I sometimes wish I would live long enough to witness the west's decline and ultimate downfall.
:facepalm:

If there was ever a justified use of that smiley, believe me, your post was it.

googe

11-29-2008, 12:27 AM

Originally posted by randedge

Don't worry too much. Pretty soon, where the global economy is going, the west will be in the shits and will no longer be the self ordained righteous leader in all matters relating to human society and human enterprise. It's with this possibility that I sometimes wish I would live long enough to witness the west's decline and ultimate downfall.

and which neanderthalic tribe do you hail from, oh wise one?

Supa Dexta

11-29-2008, 12:34 AM

Bet you wouldn't talk shit to his face!!!

...But if would, I'm sure you can find him at a foot wash station, 15 times a day.

randedge

11-29-2008, 02:16 PM

The bigotry here is just... ..whoa

Originally posted by Supa Dexta
Bet you wouldn't talk shit to his face!!!

...But if would, I'm sure you can find him at a foot wash station, 15 times a day.

Keep guessing.

---------------------------

See, I'm waving my flag and blowing my horn but I'm probably more Canadian than most of you assholes. I've served in this country's Army, and - I'm dating myself here - but being that I'm older, I've probably paid more taxes. I also have no criminal record petty or not. Oh yeah, I've also travelled outside of this continent whilst carrying the Canadian flag all the while acting as an exemplary visitor to these foreign nations - in effect I was my own one man ambassador.

That said, yeah, I'm fucking ahead in Canadiana.

So, being Canadian, I'm ashamed that my other countrymen, given the chance, would seek to act all righteous and holier than thou to other nations of this world. Not saying what they did was wrong or right - I just think that you's attitudes are unCanadian.

I do apologize for busting out a vague wish to see this beloved nation of mine to crash. I don't mean that. My love for Canadian values just got the best of me - when I see so much arrogance and righteousness, then yeah, sometimes I do end up wishing harm upon others. peace.

kirberman

11-29-2008, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by googe
all stupid laws should be repealed no matter where they are. dangerous driving laws are not stupid, they are obvious. laws about chewing gum or getting it on on the beach, are stupid. don't rationalize stupid punishments for stupid laws by comparing them to obvious laws, it doesn't work. if there is no victim or potential victim, there is no crime.

and if you go 40km/h over the speed limit, you get a ticket. it might ruin your day. this is nothing like going to prison for 4 years.

I guess we can agree to disagree. I'm trying to look at the situation from the perspective of the non guilty party. I'm a smoker and I smoke in my condo but I don't like people smoking a joint in my home. I know that may sound stupid to many people and frankly I could care less, but be it as it may, I won't allow anyone to. In that situation "stupid" is open to interpretaton and I believe your statement is too. What isn't up for interpretation is that their laws were in place before the couple ever stepped foot into Dubai. So why should anyone have to change anything for anyone because some people think it is "stupid"?

This may be going off on a tangent but I believe part of what Randedge is saying is "right". I consider myself well travelled and seen a lot of the world and how wonderfully different other areas may be. It also shows me how flawed and isolated we really are here in North America because there are so many better ways(and worse ways) to do one thing. But if you cannot see past how we do things here as "the only way" then forgive me but I feel sorry for you. If anyone is still reading this, Calgary keep your minds open or we'll continue to live up to the redneck title we have!!!

A790

11-29-2008, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by randedge
The bigotry here is just... ..whoa

Keep guessing.

---------------------------

See, I'm waving my flag and blowing my horn but I'm probably more Canadian than most of you assholes. I've served in this country's Army, and - I'm dating myself here - but being that I'm older, I've probably paid more taxes. I also have no criminal record petty or not. Oh yeah, I've also travelled outside of this continent whilst carrying the Canadian flag all the while acting as an exemplary visitor to these foreign nations - in effect I was my own one man ambassador.

That said, yeah, I'm fucking ahead in Canadiana.

So, being Canadian, I'm ashamed that my other countrymen, given the chance, would seek to act all righteous and holier than thou to other nations of this world. Not saying what they did was wrong or right - I just think that you's attitudes are unCanadian.

I do apologize for busting out a vague wish to see this beloved nation of mine to crash. I don't mean that. My love for Canadian values just got the best of me - when I see so much arrogance and righteousness, then yeah, sometimes I do end up wishing harm upon others. peace.
LOL here we go with the "I'm more Canadian than you" bullshit.

Newsflash: just because some things are acceptable in other countries, such as caning and/or stoning, doesn't mean that we, as Canadians, have to accept them. Some things lie beyond other culture's value's and beliefs and are just plain wrong.

PS - I'm 22 and I guarantee I've paid more taxes in the last two years than you have in the last 5 :) Does that make me more Canadian than you?

rage2

11-29-2008, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by A790
Newsflash: just because some things are acceptable in other countries, such as caning and/or stoning, doesn't mean that we, as Canadians, have to accept them. Some things lie beyond other culture's value's and beliefs and are just plain wrong.
We don't have to accept them, but we also don't have a right to enforce our values upon others. I know where randedge is going with his post, I too would like to see a day where we (not just as Canada, but our whole western society) not have the powers to force our beliefs upon others.

Our holier than thou attitude is pretty hipocritical considering not long ago we thought it was ok to have black slaves. We thought it was ok to have my fellow chinese immigrants sacrafice their lives to build this nation's railroads.

Trini

11-29-2008, 08:57 PM

*shrug* while in another country just abide by their laws, what is so difficult about that?
If you don't think you can do that then don't visit.

Yes it may seem weird to westerners but that is how it is there.

A790

11-29-2008, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by rage2

We don't have to accept them, but we also don't have a right to enforce our values upon others. I know where randedge is going with his post, I too would like to see a day where we (not just as Canada, but our whole western society) not have the powers to force our beliefs upon others.

Our holier than thou attitude is pretty hipocritical considering not long ago we thought it was ok to have black slaves. We thought it was ok to have my fellow chinese immigrants sacrafice their lives to build this nation's railroads.
I'm not really disagreeing with the point, only some of the examples being given. I do disagree with Dubai marketing itself to western countries if it's going to enforce laws like that which will obviously alienate the market it's trying to attract.

I mean, come on, being arrested for having a speck of of weed on you?

AG_Styles

11-30-2008, 01:27 AM

Originally posted by Godfuader

How do you feel about Singapore's laws then? That kid got beaten by a cane for graffitti, and its illegal to have bubble gum...BUBBLE GUM!!! Regardless of how abusrd I think the law is, I know that I shouldn't have bubble gum when i travel to Singapore. I am not going to boycott Singapore because they wont let me have my god given right to chew gum!
No idea what you will be proving by boycotting a Top Tier world class destination, just because they wont let you fuck on the beach?

You sure as hell don't know anything. I bring bubble gum in all the time. Unless you are bringing in bubble gum in bulk, you won't get arrested.
The kid got beaten by a cane for graffitti and for burning the national flag in a country smaller than the size of calgary.
How many tourists you see going to a foreign country and burning that country's flag?

BananaFob

11-30-2008, 02:56 AM

Godfuader

11-30-2008, 07:51 AM

Originally posted by AG_Styles

You sure as hell don't know anything. I bring bubble gum in all the time. Unless you are bringing in bubble gum in bulk, you won't get arrested.
The kid got beaten by a cane for graffitti and for burning the national flag in a country smaller than the size of calgary.
How many tourists you see going to a foreign country and burning that country's flag?

Originally posted by BananaFob

Correct. Contrary to popular belief, chewing gum in Singapore is NOT illegal. Spitting it on the ground however IS.

1) Still seems like medicinal gum is the only one allowed...and that after registering with your pharmacist.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3512498.stm
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2004/05/26/gum040526.html

2) Could not find any sources confirming that Michael Fay burned flags. His crime was vehicle vandalism.

:dunno:

HiTempguy1

11-30-2008, 10:13 AM

Don't worry too much. Pretty soon, where the global economy is going, the west will be in the shits and will no longer be the self ordained righteous leader in all matters relating to human society and human enterprise. It's with this possibility that I sometimes wish I would live long enough to witness the west's decline and ultimate downfall.

I lol'd. I always wonder why people think the west is so bad... yea, I have a great idea! Women have to be treated as second class citizens! And if they get raped, they are punished! Oh, oh, and public stonings to death of "convicted" criminals is acceptable! Lets not stop there though, blowing oneself up for their religion while killing lots of their own people is acceptable! Lets not have freedom of speech! "Democratic" governments? Yea right, fawk that but we'll pretend anyways! Lets base our whole countries government around the destruction of another country! Jesus, this is just what comes off the top of my head in 10 seconds. Yea, the west is fucking TERRIBLE. :facepalm:

I would say the exact same thing you said except for your "eastern" cultures. They should go back to their caves and die (yes, this comment is just as ignorant as yours and is meant in jest). The point is that no matter which way you look at it, I don't think you can morally (I'd hope not) support alot of the things the east does.

Having said that, when you go to another country you SHOULD follow the laws of the land. Funny how that doesn't work in Canada though...

Edit-
I would also suggest that some of the things the west does is definitly morally questionable as well. Iraq should have never happened, for sure it shouldn't have. But what about Afghanistan? Does everybody REALLY want the USA to just keep to itself (like it did before WW2)?