Supplements vs. Steriods...Discuss

[jumperman8]

I had an interesting conversation with my roomate last night. We were discussing if supplements you buy from stores is indeed worse for you then steriods.

I know it sounds crazy but here is my argument for why i think they are....

Supplements are created to give you maximum results without taking steriods or taking illegal substances. Therefore i almost think that because they are trying to match results you get from steriods that in fact they could be worse for you. They are trying to find new and improved products to add to supplements to give you the best results, most which are not that good for your body. In reality we look at a Nitrous oxide or a Creatine and see just that...NO2 and Creatine, but what else is added into these prducts to really give you that next boost. Steriods are created to affect certain parts of your body directly, you know taht before taking them, but with supplements they never really state what they do, rather say what you can expect from them. Basically my argument is if you want to get bigger faster, without doing it the old fashion way, taking steriods is in fact better for your body then filling your body with drinks mixes and pills that in fact do the same thing as steriods, just not as fast and are legal to sell over the counter.

What are your opinions on this matter?

[Wildcat]

Throw moderation and common sense out the window; both are equally bad for you.

Taking a structured and disciplined approach, each can be equally beneficial. I can't elaborate any more than that.

[zipdoa]

#1. No.
#2. Supplements gains do not equal steroid gains
#3. Steroids are worse for you, period
#4. If you think steroids are a better idea than supplements, you're wrong. Infact, if you think steroids are a good idea at all, you've probably lost most of your common sense already. The results you get from creatine and the results you get from wistrol are completely different, but if you think that you need either to get any sort of results at the gym, juice/gulp away =)
#5. Supplements are more or less a gimmick.
#6. Steroids make you look stupid, even if you think you look good. I have not seen one person yet who does not look for the worse after taking steroids. It messes up your face and features, and is a vain attempt at looks/sex appeal.

sorry cody... not trying to hurt any feelings. i hope you don't start juicing though :D

[jumperman8]

In no way did i say i would use them, like i said i just was discussing this and thought it would be nice to see otehr ppls thoughts. thank you.

also, creatine and n02 both have similar results as anavar

[zipdoa]

Originally posted by jumperman8
In no way did i say i would use them, like i said i just was discussing this and thought it would be nice to see otehr ppls thoughts. thank you.

also, creatine and n02 both have similar results as anavar

i'm guessing the similarities are water retention? and if so, i'd rather consume a product orally than inject (i assume you do this with anavar).

[jumperman8]

Yes water retention, although i believe anavar is a oral steriod, taking threw pill form. Either way, i completely agree steriods are terrible for you, i just think that supplements are if not worse for you.

Also anybody who knows me knows i put my time in, and wouldnt ever think about the juice!!!

[zipdoa]

Originally posted by jumperman8
Yes water retention, although i believe anavar is a oral steriod, taking threw pill form. Either way, i completely agree steriods are terrible for you, i just think that supplements are if not worse for you.

big G was telling me the other day that he read an article that 99% of supplements are bullshit anyways, get better results with an excellent diet and lots of extra lean meat. From personal use of creatine and comparing to a friend of mine taking anavar, I would definately choose to go with xyience/xpand rather than his method... gains lots of weight, but looks like a chipmunk

[jumperman8]

hahaha he was telling me the same thing not to long ago, makes sence really....and i agree....nice toned build is better then cranked up!!

[bubbley]

might as well juice it!

[civic_rida]

first of all whats the obsession with anavar on this forum is everyone to scared to inject.

Oral steriods are really harsh on your liver.

If your going to do steriods be sure to inject.

[kutt3r]

Hmm where to start....

Ummm there are no suppliments on the market that do what steriods do, period....nothing, no combination.

Steriods allow your muscle to recover faster, simple as that.

You cannot compare Anavar to a proper cycle. While anavar could be a compnent in a cycle a 'real' cycle will give you gains that no suppliments could hope to.
You will lose most of the gains going off... the whole point of cycling continuously gain mass while letting your body recover as steriods can be very hard on your liver etc....

Taken properly steriods can be as safe as suppliments (sometimes more so as most suppliments are not FDA tested), but there are always side effects to everything, it is a matter of how informed you are as well as to how to control those side effects.

Do I suggest them... no. Never would I, but there are many folks that use them responsibly and correctly and you would never know.

Oh and if he looks like a chipmunk he is not doing just Anavar:

Anavar is great for strength and cutting purposes, but not for bulking or a lot of weight gain. In other words, what I´m saying is that everything you gain will be solid. Personally I am leaning towards a theory which basically purports that the more solid your gains are, the more you´ll keep (percentage-wise). It makes sense, when you think about it; people make a lot of weight gains on the highly water-retentive steroids (Dbol, A50, long estered testosteones, etc. ), but lose the greatest percentage of their gains afterwards. The same seems to be opposite for the steroids which cause less (or no) water retention (Anavar, Primo, Winstrol, etc& ).

[kutt3r]

Originally posted by civic_rida
first of all whats the obsession with anavar on this forum is everyone to scared to inject.

Oral steriods are really harsh on your liver.

If your going to do steriods be sure to inject.

Anavar is not that hard on your liver actually...but there does seem to be that obsession on this forum lately
:)

[jumperman8]

MY guess is because Anavar is a light steriod with miminal side effects, also unless staked its results are not mind blowing and they can lie about taking it!! lol

Which made me think, injections are way better, also the supplements you buy kill your stomach and liver to, correct?

And thanks kutter for your input!

[civic_rida]

There are suppliments on the market that do what steriods do. Not to the same extent but raise test levels and help you recover.

[zipdoa]

IIRC injections are still hard on your liver? but not only that, your heart as well, and your brain... check out how many WWE/Pro wrestlers have died before the age of 50, due to juicing.

[bubbley]

pick up some sust dbol deca

[jumperman8]

M1T's are probably the closest supplement to steriods as far as results go, and those are extremely hard on your body.

[dharminder]

Originally posted by zipdoa
IIRC injections are still hard on your liver? but not only that, your heart as well, and your brain... check out how many WWE/Pro wrestlers have died before the age of 50, due to juicing.


most of these guys are not giving there body the much needed rest and (i am only guessing) that with the demand of wrestling more then half of the year they are not doing them in a safe manner

[bubbley]

Originally posted by jumperman8
M1T's are probably the closest supplement to steriods as far as results go, and those are extremely hard on your body.

m1t=rat poison

[bubbley]

Originally posted by zipdoa
IIRC injections are still hard on your liver? but not only that, your heart as well, and your brain... check out how many WWE/Pro wrestlers have died before the age of 50, due to juicing.

Not true..studies show concussions and head injuries are the primary reason

[kerry]

Originally posted by Wildcat
Throw moderation and common sense out the window; both are equally bad for you.

Taking a structured and disciplined approach, each can be equally beneficial. I can't elaborate any more than that.

Well put. Steroids will obvioulsly yield a greater result, but you nailed it on the head there.

[jumperman8]

I just wish to say, so everyone knows. In no way am i supporting the use of steriods, nor would i ever tell or convince someone to take them.

Personally i would never use supplements again either...

Some really good responses so far!!!

[kutt3r]

Originally posted by civic_rida
There are suppliments on the market that do what steriods do. Not to the same extent but raise test levels and help you recover.

Seriously... read some actually papers on the crap that they are bottling... it is trash. Tribualis or whatever it is caused is garbage I have yet to read a paper that says that it boosts test a significant level. If you raised test significantly without PCT you would see a bunch of guys running around with boobs and crying (note sarcasm).

Most recovery suppliments are fast acting carbs (read sugar), they have nothing to do with steriods.

[kutt3r]

Originally posted by jumperman8
I just wish to say, so everyone knows. In no way am i supporting the use of steriods, nor would i ever tell or convince someone to take them.

Personally i would never use supplements again either...

Some really good responses so far!!!

I honestly believe that if you are training clean and you want a boost stick with creatine/ECA stack/whey/meal replacements (real food is better, but as long as you are getting enough calories)
These have all been proven to work, there are tons of papers on them if you want the proof.

I like EFA's, glutimine (I cannot speell for sh!t) and a multi. The nitro type stuff is pretty much a waste from what I have read, just take caffine if you need the boost. (I will admit that I like the BSN stuff, tasted good and lots of energy, but too much $$$ I still use Buzz Saw for the energy boost, when not on ECA stack)

KISS rule applies.
Eat right #1
Train right #1
Suppliment if you want #2

[TKRIS]

Originally posted by zipdoa
IIRC injections are still hard on your liver? but not only that, your heart as well, and your brain... check out how many WWE/Pro wrestlers have died before the age of 50, due to juicing.

Steroids taken orally are much harder on your liver, as they have to be alkylated (IMS) in order to pass through the liver without being filtered. Additionally, the half life of oral steroids is much, much shorter, so you have to take them much more often, which puts added stress on your liver.

And the dangers of moderate steroid use are way overblown.
Steroids offer huge physical gains for all different facets of our lives, and it's a shame they're all (well, mostly all) being painted with the same brush, and that that brush is so tainted with misinformation.
There are a plethora of reasons why the deaths of guys like Guerrero and Mentzer aren't really applicable to the types of scenarios we're talking about here.

Full Disclosure: I'm a research junkie, not a gym-bunny. I know a reasonable amount about steroids because I'm a geek, not because I'm a user. ;)

EDIT: I should also add, that I'm not advocating steroid use. I'm simply stating that all the hysterical propaganda that surrounds them is just that: Hysterical Propaganda.
I'm sure as hell not going to start taking steroids. That would mean I'd have to go to the gym, and I hate the fucking gym. But I think people should have access to correct information to make an informed choice.

[kutt3r]

^^ LOL
Nice post!

Moderation & Education, the prevailing theme of logic.

Drugs are bad mmmmkay

[civic_rida]

lol whose talkin about tribulus. Nitrix products do what they are suppose to do.

[jumperman8]

Good info everyone...so agree or disagree?

[qbrown]

Originally posted by bubbley


Not true..studies show concussions and head injuries are the primary reason

well i dont think its JUST because of concussions. Think of any other heavy contact sport such as hockey or football where concussions are common as well. You never see those guys dieing at or before age 50

[TKRIS]

I disagree with your entire premise that implies that both, or either, are inherently unhealthy or dangerous.
Supplements are often little more than wallet thinners and snake oil, and there are countless perfectly safe and effective uses of steroids.

I've used steroids countless times with great results. So has my wife. You probably have as well.
I've also used supplements to little or no effect.

You're comparing apples to volkswagens.

[Fafa]

Originally posted by TKRIS
You're comparing apples to volkswagens.

hahaha

[kutt3r]

Originally posted by civic_rida
lol whose talkin about tribulus. Nitrix products do what they are suppose to do.

WoW I am going to run out and buy BSN, shares that is just because they seem to have everyone blind sided.... Funny thing is I really don't mind there products.. they are just $$$.

LOL I just looked at the ingredient list for Nitrix... Creatine Ethyl Ester... wow no wonder it works... :rolleyes:

As for the Nitric Oxide....the jury is still out on that one... again still have yet to see a paper that proves that it works, I still think it might have potential, but that remains to be seen.

Aside from exercise, pharmaceutical agents have been used with success to induce NO• biosynthesis, in an attempt to promote vasodilation (for review please see [17]). Treatments have sometimes included high dosages of L-arginine, often provided via intravenous injection. This has led to the development of several nutritional supplements, often containing small amounts of L-arginine, which are purported to have "drug-like" action, ultimately leading to increased NO•. While the fitness industry is inundated with advertisements for such products, the scientific data are scant. We have recently demonstrated an increase in plasma NOx in healthy sedentary subjects following oral treatment with a novel carnitine agent, glycine propionyl-L-carnitine (GPLC; [18]). This finding extends recent work of Lofreddo et al. [19] who reported an increase in blood NOx in response to 6 grams per day of PLC given via IV infusion to patients with peripheral arterial disease. Other reports suggest vasodilatation actions with PLC [20], in addition to glycine [21] treatment independently. However, our initial findings using oral GPLC were observed at rest, and in previously sedentary subjects, individuals who quite possibly have lower resting NOx levels compared to well-trained subjects; hence, may have a greater potential for responding to GPLC treatment. To our knowledge, no studies have been done to evaluate the efficacy of nutritional supplements to increase NOx levels in a sample of potential users (e.g., resistance trained athletes). Therefore, in the present study, our purpose was to determine the impact of oral GPLC on plasma NOx at rest and in response to a period of reactive hyperemia in resistance trained men. Using a double blind, randomized, crossover design, we hypothesized that plasma NOx would be higher with GPLC treatment compared to placebo, at rest and in response to the ischemia-reperfusion protocol.

Conclusion:
In summary, our findings indicate that short-term oral GPLC supplementation can increase NOx in resistance trained men. However, there exist both "responders" and "non-responders" to treatment. Findings from this study may have health implications for those with ischemic conditions such as peripheral vascular disease and ischemic heart disease, as increased NOx may allow for enhanced blood flow, in particular during times of physical stress. Moreover, these findings may relate specifically to athletes who seek enhanced blood flow during periods of strenuous exercise, as such a change may be associated with improved physical performance during training and optimal post exercise recovery. Future study is needed to determine what, if any, physiologic benefit is associated with the observed increase in plasma NOx with GPLC supplementation.

[civic_rida]

i actually use no shot gun which is a no product and works really well as does no-xplode.

[jumperman8]

^^^^^Im confused !! Kutter basically closed this thread with his information!!

[Darkane]

Juice > kool aid

Anyway though we have to define supplements better here. All this NO stuff blah blah, way to gimicky.

The supps I take which are also what someone "on" cycle would take. In other words, The steroids are stacked on top.

Here are some supps that actually work:

Multi vitamins
Whey Isolate and Hydrosylate
BCAA's and glutamine
Fish oil ***********
Waxy Maize or Dextrose
ZMA
Digestive enzymes
Vit C
NAC

Between the ZMA and the multi vits (assuming you're in the upper limit of your Zinc intake) your natural test lelvels will be the highest they can pretty much get.

Best way to raise test without supps (and yes it's 100% possible) is this:

Heavy workouts (Squats/Deads heavy as possible, usually 90% of 1RM intensity)
Enough sleep at regular hours (8 hours +, consistent bed and wake up times)
No beer, and most alcohol. (A little red wine can actually have an estrogen lowering effect causing increased test with the Resveratrol effecting aromatse)
Sex.. obviously. (I've actually read jerking off lowers test for a bit)

Blah blah.. I could just keep typing but short answer is:

Supps will never have the anabolic effect of steroids. Done.

EDIT: LOL at the comments about a supp doing the same thing as anavar.

Somebody changing their diet, workout routine and lifestyle can grow and lose bodyfat too. Is that the same effect as anavar or another AAS? You bet your ass it is.

[civic_rida]

done n done
we should have a workout meet that would be cool

[bubbley]

no beer/alchohol? lol....man i drink like a fish...i slam some milk thistle a few days before im gonna drink...that makes me feel better...no good

[civic_rida]

I dont drink unless im in mexico

[liquidboi69]

Originally posted by Darkane

Here are some supps that actually work:

Multi vitamins
Whey Isolate and Hydrosylate
BCAA's and glutamine
Fish oil ***********
Waxy Maize or Dextrose
ZMA
Digestive enzymes
Vit C
NAC

People are saying ZMA doesn't work
http://bodyandmind.gr/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1192375134

People are saying glutamine doesn't work
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=5607091
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=586999

I read that those two have results loosely based off anecdotal evidence, and not much INDEPENDENT scientific evidence. But don't take my word for it...I just read it. I have no background in bio, I just read stuff on the internet.

And yes, short term scientific studies of NO supplements containing Arginine have shown little/no effect on NO production in the body like Kutt3r said.
----
My answer to the TS's question:

No. Supplements are not potentially worse than steroids. Also, steroids can be taken in a way that it is not "bad" for you...depending on the person, education on the topic, and the steroid. Both can be "ok," and no "worse" than any other thing you can put into your body. But overall, supplements are safer and *easier to use. The ease is what makes it safer, because you don't have to have a lot of knowledge to use it safely like you do with steroids. When both are used properly, supplements will be safer.

The only supplements that work in my opinion are Creatine, Aminos, Protein, Multi-vit/fish oil (stimulants work but I did not classify these as a supplement since stimulation of CNS isn't really in our diet, and doesn't needed to be "supplemented.")

Most supplements are just mixes of carbs/aminos/creatine/protein. All those, if taken properly are safe and naturally occurring in foods. Potentially much safer than steroids.

The other supplements are almost useless, and have little positive / negative effects.

[kutt3r]

Originally posted by liquidboi69

People are saying ZMA doesn't work
http://bodyandmind.gr/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1192375134

People are saying glutamine doesn't work
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=5607091
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=586999

I read that those two have results loosely based off anecdotal evidence, and not much INDEPENDENT scientific evidence. But don't take my word for it...I just read it. I have no background in bio, I just read stuff on the internet.

And yes, short term scientific studies of NO supplements containing Arginine have shown little/no effect on NO production in the body like Kutt3r said.

Just to add to this, I like ZMA personally. I have read the studies and I will say they are inconclusive... what I do know is that I sleep like a baby when I take it, that alone is worth it to me, if I get a test boost that is icing on the cake. Looking at that article, the sources are very pieced together, studies are done on single component.. ZMA which is just zinc, magnesium is symbyotic, just like Calcium/Magneium/C, your body has a harder time absorbing C without Calcium, your body has trouble with Cal without Mag.. they all work together... Key statement in that link: Zinc also has various benefits, provided no deficiency exists.
That is why we take multi's & ZMA's to ensure there is not a defficiency, to suppliment our diets if you will. A multi will not make you strong alone, but when you are missing things, your body will not perform at optimum.

Glutamine I use as well, seeing as I am getting up there I am looking for all the natural recovery I can, the aches in my knees/joints seems to me have subsided noticably.

Digestive enzymes (Not sure if Darkane is talking about the acid increaser or probiotics here) - I would be careful with... this is very individual I tried the stuff (sorry cannot remember the name) that raises your acid level in your stomach to help fully digest and it was horrible for me, apparently I have a very acidic stomach as these (even in the smallest does reccomended to start) caused me the worst heart burn I have ever had.

Supps/roids will always be an individual choice, neither are right or wrong, you just need to make educated decisions on what and how you are going to use what is available to you.

[zipdoa]

I can personally testify that glutamine DOES work, and makes a huge difference in recovery time. IIRC hospitals often give it to patients after surgery, as it speeds up healing/recovery by allowing the body to utilize more protein?

[urban.one]

Two forums that have good info are:

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_forum

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/

Both have a ton of discussion on supplements, diet/nutrtion and roids. Tnation has an active roid forum. Bodybuilding.com has a asian bodybuidling discussions as well.

Theres a ton of misinformation out there and youll find it on those forums as well but its good to hear personal experiences with steroids to help you make up your own mind.

http://images.google.ca/images?um=1&hl=en&q=gynecomastia+steroids

[Darkane]

Kutt3r, yeah dude I was talking about the HCl digestive enzymes.

Poliquin has an HCl test you can take to determine if you need them or not. If you're low naturally in HCl, then digesting big protein meals is tough.

Well, I'll throw out an argument that little myth/truth thing didn't include. Zinc is a natural aromatase inhibitor as well. Just by being deficient in Zinc you could be more of a woman than you thought lol.

So even though Zinc didn't raise Total testosterone, it raised FREE testosterone and that's what we care about when discussing these kinds of issues.

[kutt3r]

Originally posted by Darkane

Well, I'll throw out an argument that little myth/truth thing didn't include. Zinc is a natural aromatase inhibitor as well. Just by being deficient in Zinc you could be more of a woman than you thought lol.



haha that is enough reason for me to continue to suppliment with ZMA & multi's

:rofl:

[89coupe]

If you want to run the risk of heart failure, liver failer, tumours, cancer, high blood pressure, acne, oily skin, low sperm count, high estrogen levels, boobs, small testicals, and strokes.

Take steroids.:thumbsup:

:facepalm:

[shin0bi]

I'll weigh in here:
A while ago I was pretty curious about trying anavar (oxandrolone) but because of all the negative hype about such things, I thought I'd look into it before jumping the gun and either hurting myself or wasting my time and money. So here it is...
Based on research, I've concluded that Anavar in moderation is one of the safer steroids one could use, and as Kutter said, the gains are mostly solid. You won't look like the terminator, but you'll be a lot stronger. Studies have shown that even after you stop using oxandrolone, you'll keep the majority of your gains for a long time. Furthermore, it seems to have fat cutting properties even if you're sitting on your big lazy ass all day. Sweet.


BUT:



Oxandrolone may increase the amount of low density lipoprotein (LDL; 'bad cholesterol') and decrease the amount of high density lipoprotein (HDL; 'good cholesterol') in the blood. This may increase the risk of developing heart disease. Oxandrolone may damage the liver or increase LDL without causing symptoms. It is important to have regular laboratory tests to be sure that the liver is working properly and that LDL has not increased. Oxandrolone may also decrease fertility in men.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxandrolone


Also, good luck if you can freaking find any in this city...

[colt22]

Originally posted by jumperman8
Yi completely agree steriods are terrible for you, i just think that supplements are if not worse for you.


LOL

[jumperman8]

Originally posted by colt22


LOL

Thanks for your input!!! I think everyone is a little smarter now! Your post was incredible!!!! Thanksss again!!!!

[Darkane]

Bump, anybody else have any arguments? This thread had some valid points.

[kerry]

Originally posted by shin0bi

Also, good luck if you can freaking find any in this city...

How do ya figure?

[JAYMEZ]

Originally posted by kerry


How do ya figure?


Lol no doubt. I have some about 10 feet away from me lol :rofl: .. Though i did find them :rofl:

[kerry]

Hahaha I know. Oh well. Call me when you see this Jaymez, I been textin you fool!

[civicrider]

Original Post Removed. (Please read the Forum Rules and Terms of Use (http://forums.beyond.ca/articles.php?action=data&item=1) before posting again, or risk getting banned).

[Toma]

Original Post Removed. (Please read the Forum Rules and Terms of Use (http://forums.beyond.ca/articles.php?action=data&item=1) before posting again, or risk getting banned).

[Blacura]

Originally posted by 89coupe
If you want to run the risk of heart failure, liver failer, tumours, cancer, high blood pressure, acne, oily skin, low sperm count, high estrogen levels, boobs, small testicals, and strokes.

Take steroids.:thumbsup:

:facepalm:

Exactly. Do not get information regarding side effects from websites like tnation or juicfreaker or anything like that, it written by juicers for juicers.

I've done research papers on the use of high levels of exogenous testosterone and I found 0 peer reviewed studies that show results that are anything near what I would consider safe, even at low doses. Low doses in the anabolic steroid realm that is, low doses for hormone replacement therapy were proven to have some benefit, but we're talking a few milligrams a week, not 400 - 1000 in some cases.

[semograd]

our Muscles need a few basic things to work at an optimal level (naturally):

1. Vitamins
2. minerals
3. Fatty acids
4. Amino acids
5. Protein

The supplements i take are pretty basic but I can tell the difference almost right away when i stop taking them:

The basic animal pack + a few other random vit/min pills, Cod liver oil and a healthy, balanced diet pretty much covers it. I should also add that all the supplements said to be effective rest under these 5 categories.

ZMA: vitamins/minerals
Glutamine: Amino Acids
Whey: protein

I guarantee that these supplements are beneficial in the long and short run not destructive.

[kerry]

Google the Bigger Stronger Faster movie. Watch it. Neat information.