Auto Industry Bailout (Merged)

[Supa Dexta]

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/12/bigthreeceos_opta.jpg

It's taken two rounds of Congressional hearings, some major pride swallowing and three detailed business plans, but it looks as if the Detroit 3 will be getting the federal loans they need, though not as much they asked for. A deal was reportedly reached between Democratic leaders and the White House that will supply around $15 billion in federal loans to the struggling U.S. auto industry. While General Motors, Ford and Chrysler asked for a combined maximum of $34 billion, the $15 billion is designed to ensure they stay alive until March when the issue will be readdressed with the input of a fresh Obama administration. GM and Chrysler reportedly need around $11 billion to survive the new year, while Ford has said it would only need government aid if one of the other two went under.

We're hearing that a deal was reached between Democrats and the Bush administration late Friday after top Dem. Nancy Pelosi gave in to the White House and its position that the money should come from $25 billion in loans previously approved to help the automakers retool for energy fuel efficient vehicles, rather than drawing the aid from the $700 billion Troubled Asset Relief Fund for struggling financial institutions. In return, Pelosi is seeking a guarantee that the money would be replenished in "a matter of weeks."

Both the Senate and House of Representatives have confirmed they will be meeting on Tuesday to vote on the deal, and it's expected that strong oversight of how the loans are used, whether in the form of an individual car czar or committee, will be part of the final package.

Party on, Detroit.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/05/breaking-congress-makes-tentative-deal-for-15-billion-in-autom/

[Canmorite]

Bailing out the UAW. Sweet. :thumbsdow

[badatusrnames]

Originally posted by Canmorite
Bailing out the UAW. Sweet. :thumbsdow

:werd: so unfortunate, but necessary...

[Canmorite]

Originally posted by badatusrnames


:werd: so unfortunate, but necessary...

Sort of. I'd rather see the Unions kicked out, and hire back workers as employees only, none of this UAW bullshit. The big 3 need to cut costs if they want to stick around for longer then 1-2 years.

[badatusrnames]

Originally posted by Canmorite


Sort of. I'd rather see the Unions kicked out, and hire back workers as employees only, none of this UAW bullshit. The big 3 need to cut costs if they want to stick around for longer then 1-2 years.

Yeah of course, I'm guessing GM is the largest private provider of healthcare and benefits in the world. I remember hearing some stupid stat that GM pays 20mil a year in erectile dysfunction drugs.

How are you going to get rid of these unions though? The unions do need to smarten up and stop biting the hand that feeds them.

Airline unions have agreed to collective paycuts for their members if it meant the company stayed healthier and all of them kept their jobs - why can't the autoworkers do the same?

[toyboy88]

:werd: ...unions for the big 3 can't go on the same as they have up til now if they want to make it past 6 months - year.


Not sure how accurate the statistic is, but my economics teacher at the UofC said that GM employee salary (including bonuses/insurance payouts/healthcare costs/etc. I assume) equates to ~$65/hr!


:dunno: :eek:

[Canmorite]

Originally posted by badatusrnames


How are you going to get rid of these unions though? The unions do need to smarten up and stop biting the hand that feeds them.

Airline unions have agreed to collective paycuts for their members if it meant the company stayed healthier and all of them kept their jobs - why can't the autoworkers do the same?

Said it before but let them go bankrupt or freeze business/assets. A buyer will step in and take them for 10-20 cents on the dollar, fire the unions, hire back whatever workers needed and start fresh.

I think the UAW has taken some cuts to benefits, but I really don't see the need for a large union especially in Canada with easily available health insurance.


Originally posted by toyboy88

Not sure how accurate the statistic is, but my economics teacher at the UofC said that GM employee salary (including bonuses/insurance payouts/healthcare costs/etc. I assume) equates to ~$65/hr!


And this is why they can't compete on the same level as the Asian automakers.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see what happens to GM and F come monday.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Canmorite
Bailing out the UAW. Sweet. :thumbsdow

They are getting rid of job bank. Shit load of people will be fired (which is why they are getting rid of job bank).

And will be renegotiate terms. UAW's power will be limited now until Detroit start to be in the black again.

[corsvette]

Originally posted by Xtrema


They are getting rid of job bank. Shit load of people will be fired (which is why they are getting rid of job bank).

And will be renegotiate terms. UAW's power will be limited now until Detroit start to be in the black again.

A step in the right direction for sure!

[PGTze]

Geez that's a large band-aid. Somewhat off topic, but I never understood why Americans felt that it was their birthright to have a job. Ironic that the unions the automotive workers are a part of played a large part in destroying their employer. I still do feel bad for the people in Detroit and area though.

[Eleanor]

Interesting link I was sent by a buddy.

http://bigthreeauto.procon.org/

[Isaiah]

Originally posted by Eleanor

http://bigthreeauto.procon.org/
# 6, 7, 11 tell the story.

US: Bullshit "worker is king" philosophy, manufacturing garbage and compensating CEOs with a king's ransom.

Japan: Terrific quality cars, ununionized workers who actually value their jobs, and CEOs making reasonable paycheques.

The Big 3 aren't in this mess because of the economy, they're in it because of overinflated egos, bad business, and squandering cash.

[Xtrema]

http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2008/12/11/auto-industry-bailout-includes-blessing-for-shady-tax-shelters/

The loan is cheaper compare to loss of income attached.

[creeper]

Too early for a link, but this will be splashed all over the news obviously. Senate kills auto industry bailout. Auto industry set to collapse.


Good.

Piss poor products, horrible management, extreme overhead. Limitless greed.

Regretfully tens and tens of thosands will be out of work, and the economy as a whole will come to a standstill for the next few years, but when times are great they want the government to fuck off and let them be, and when they fuck it all up they want the taxpayers to bail them out.

Fuck Ford, GM, and every other automaker thats about to go broke. It should be considered a lesson learned for greedy, top heavy mega-corporations.

The bigger they are, the harder they fall.

See you in hell.

[Eleanor]

Senate shot it down.


A deal on $14 billion in aid to Detroit's Big Three automakers fell apart Thursday night in the Senate despite intense negotiations on Capitol Hill between lawmakers, union officials and representatives from the three companies.

The bailout died after failing 52-35 on a Senate procedural vote.

Earlier in the evening, the talks appeared to have produced a breakthrough, with Democratic leaders "hopeful" that an agreement had been reached that would be acceptable to Senate Republicans, who have resisted the aid package. But Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid came back later to report the effort had failed, adding he was "terribly disappointed."

The White House said it was evaluating its options in light of the breakdown.

"It's disappointing that Congress failed to act tonight," a White House statement said. "We think the legislation we negotiated provided an opportunity to use funds already appropriated for automakers and presented the best chance to avoid a disorderly bankruptcy while ensuring taxpayer funds only go to firms whose stakeholders were prepared to make difficult decisions to become viable."

Republicans, after reviewing the latest version of the proposal in a closed-door meeting, balked at giving automaker federal aid unless their powerful union agreed to slash wages next year to bring them into line with those of Japanese carmakers.

Republican Sen. George V. Voinovich of Ohio, a strong bailout supporter, said the United Auto Workers was willing to make the cuts, but not until 2011.

The collapse of the latest negotiations came as the Wall Street Journal reported Thursday evening that General Motors had hired lawyers and bankers to consider whether to file for bankruptcy, a prospect made more likely by the outcome of Thursday's talks.

A procedural vote is scheduled Thursday night but it is expected to be little more than a formality.

"We just don't have the votes," Reid said. "I dread looking at Wall Street in the morning."

Democratic leaders and the White House made final pleas for the bill's passage on Thursday, but the two sides in the Senate failed to forge a compromise.

The House approved the plan late Wednesday on a vote of 237-170. It would infuse money within days into cash-starved General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC. Ford Motor Co., which has said it has enough cash to make it through 2009, would also be eligible for federal aid.

The plan would also create a government "car czar," to be named by President Bush to dole out loans, with the power to force the carmaker into bankruptcy next spring if they didn't cut quick deals with labor unions, creditors and others to restructure their businesses and become viable.

But the legislation has met strong opposition from many Republicans -- including Minority Leader Mitch McConnell -- who claim it does not require enough accountability from auto makers. The Republicans planned to filibuster the legislation to prevent its passage in the U.S. Senate.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2008/12/11/auto-bailout-collapses-senate-despite-intense-negotiations/

[410440]

:werd:

I'll be spitting on dodge when I make it to hell to.

[JfuckinC]

so what do they do with all of there vehicles and dealerships???

[Jlude]

Originally posted by creeper
Too early for a link, but this will be splashed all over the news obviously. Senate kills auto industry bailout. Auto industry set to collapse.


Good.

Piss poor products, horrible management, extreme overhead. Limitless greed.

Regretfully tens and tens of thosands will be out of work, and the economy as a whole will come to a standstill for the next few years, but when times are great they want the government to fuck off and let them be, and when they fuck it all up they want the taxpayers to bail them out.

Fuck Ford, GM, and every other automaker thats about to go broke. It should be considered a lesson learned for greedy, top heavy mega-corporations.

The bigger they are, the harder they fall.

See you in hell.



Originally posted by 410440
:werd:

I'll be spitting on dodge when I make it to hell to.


You two are hateful.

Although I completely agree with you.

[kissmyKICKS]

GG...I wonder if vipers and corvettes will go for 20 bucks now?

[corsvette]

Greedy union would not meet wage cuts,oh well they file chapter 11 and break up the UAW and carry on.

[roopi]

Here's a link... Don't think it's completely dead yet (there are still other funds available maybe):

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081211/congress_autos.html

[natejj]

Tens of thousands out of work? Try... at least 250,000.

[mowglee]

Originally posted by JfuckinC
so what do they do with all of there vehicles and dealerships???

free cars!!

[410440]

FIRESALEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE !!!!


lol

[JfuckinC]

do we get cheap cars and trucks, COME ON. guys.

[Anomaly]

Originally posted by creeper

Regretfully tens and tens of thosands will be out of work,

Just a little of an understatement, Try hundreds of thousands. Hell, even Some people estimate that 1 in 10 people in the US are in some way shape or form employed in the US auto industry.

AND it's going to cost the US Govt. far more to pick up the legacy costs of the big 2.5 (pensions, etc) that the bailout loan would have.

[finboy]

Originally posted by natejj
Tens of thousands out of work? Try... at least 250,000.

more if you consider the parts suppliers, though i am not a fan of bailing out corporations who expect one way government intervention, i would rather not see hundreds of thousands, if not a million people out of work.

[badatusrnames]

Wow, I can't believe UAW would let the manufacturers go bankrupt rather than agree to wage cuts. I think they are gambling on the assumption that the US Government won't let the Big Three fail, no matter what.


A $14 billion emergency bailout for U.S. automakers collapsed in the Senate Thursday night after the United Auto Workers refused to accede to Republican demands for swift wage cuts.

[S4maniac]

now way will the lines even stop for a second. Worse case scenario is they go into restructuring and the union will finally have to realize they are fu##ed unless they act like they are actually a contributing part of the business.

Scare mongering at it finest .. hopefully it works

[adam c]

glad i drive an import
sucks it has a ford engine though

[ryanallan]

its more like millions of people who will be out of work

remember that michal more file about the flint plant closing ?
remember how the town turned to hell , why would you wish that upon millions of people ?

i am hoping they get the cash, but attached to the loan would be a management shuffle in all 3 , and a car czar would be installed

i would like to see wagner and the UAW on the street, they both have no clue about anything

i also hope that roger penske gets to be the czar

[1997GSR]

Merry Christmas

[corsvette]

Originally posted by badatusrnames
Wow, I can't believe UAW would let the manufacturers go bankrupt rather than agree to wage cuts. I think they are gambling on the assumption that the US Government won't let the Big Three fail, no matter what.

I agree,as i said before,going bankrupt may be the only was to get the union off the back of the maufacturers.Start over again and dont let the union get out of control.

[Isaiah]

Goddamn UAW. What more can I say?

[adam c]

it's funny how they would rather be out of a job than to take a wage cut

long live americans

[S4maniac]

Originally posted by corsvette
I agree,as i said before,going bankrupt may be the only was to get the union off the back of the maufacturers.Start over again and dont let the union get out of control.

quoted for truth. Sad it has to go right to the line for the unions to realize

[S4maniac]

Originally posted by adam c
it's funny how they would rather be out of a job than to take a wage cut

long live americans

I watched the Gainers union do it in Edmonton ... its not that rare. how fugged is that.

[badatusrnames]

Originally posted by corsvette
I agree,as i said before,going bankrupt may be the only was to get the union off the back of the maufacturers.Start over again and dont let the union get out of control.

That's about it. But I think if that happens, the US Government would be very worried about foreign ownership... ie. by China. Basically, China could have an advanced auto industry as well as a ton of technology on the cheap and they have the cash on had to do it.

And people need to realize that if they go bankrupt, it's not as if these companies are going to disappear off of the face of the planet and they won't be able to get any parts for their car... entities that large don't just disappear, they have huge assets that will be bought and sold...

[badatusrnames]

Originally posted by adam c
it's funny how they would rather be out of a job than to take a wage cut

long live americans



Originally posted by S4maniac


quoted for truth. Sad it has to go right to the line for the unions to realize

Airline unions were smart enough to do it...

[hks]

so what happens now?

[realazy]

Wait for them to file chapter 11.

GM and Chrysler were the ones that wanted immediate bailout money. Ford wanted a line of credit.

Outta the 3, Ford seems to be in the best (least worse) shape.

[Preslow]

Emergency talks breakdown on the bailout:
Workers union won't give in and reduce wages.

http://ca.news.finance.yahoo.com/s/11122008/2/biz-finance-emergency-senate-talks-14-billion-auto-aid-deal.html

[Preslow]

uh oh....

[muse017]

:thumbsup: Now, they are in shithole.

[Antonito]

The worst part is that even if they get rid of the union they'll still be on the hook for the legacy costs, which are a large portion of the difference in "salaries" between the Japanese automakers and the domestic (when comparing American-based plants).

So basically all they can do is cut the benefits and probably cut the wages. The benefits could be negligible, but they already make the same basic wages as their Japanese owned counterparts, so basically shitty American cars are going to be produced by even shittier workers as many will be clamoring to go to the Japanese manufacturers in order to get back to their former pay rates.

[Canmorite]

Best and fastest way to get it over with. Bankruptcy was inevitable.

[in*10*se]

i wonder if any of you calgarians/albertans realize the fallout from the big 3 collapse has on the o&g industry....

1. what parts of a car aren't made from petroleum products?
plastic? interior parts? tires?

ok, what about met coal? it's used to make/melt the steel of the car.... so coal demand drops to nil, oil demand drops even more... thus meaning less oil projects, thus just like what encana annouced today, its cut all of its capital projects, and well look what happened with teck cominico and atco structures laying off 400 people.

This collapse is going to hit home hard. period.

Yes its awesome that there will be no more shitty cars on the road... but it will hurt o&g in a big way...

[badatusrnames]

Originally posted by in*10*se
i wonder if any of you calgarians/albertans realize the fallout from the big 3 collapse has on the o&g industry....

1. what parts of a car aren't made from petroleum products?
plastic? interior parts? tires?

ok, what about met coal? it's used to make/melt the steel of the car.... so coal demand drops to nil, oil demand drops even more... thus meaning less oil projects, thus just like what encana annouced today, its cut all of its capital projects, and well look what happened with teck cominico and atco structures laying off 400 people.

This collapse is going to hit home hard. period.

Yes its awesome that there will be no more shitty cars on the road... but it will hurt o&g in a big way...

Umm... probably not so much in the way you say. And Alberta doesn't really export coal south IIRC.

Demand for cars is still going to remain whether or not the big three are solvent. That demand will either be filled by other manufacturers, or by whatever is left of the Big Three when this is over.

Reduced economic activity overall will erode demand for energy. That's about it.

[in*10*se]

Originally posted by badatusrnames

Reduced economic activity overall will erode demand for energy. That's about it.

there you go. i rest my case. ;)

[01RedDX]

.

[chkolny541]

wow, i gotta admit i was expecting the bailout to go through, not the full amount, but still:eek:

[arian_ma]

How is this going to affect the price of imports with less competition from the domestic market?

[eglove]

yikes. i would have thought some of the bailout would go to them...

[Zephyr]

In a way this is good as it shows how evil unions really are. But I can't imagine how bad this is going to be for all those who are going to lose their jobs...

[Mys73ri0]

http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/106278/%2473-an-Hour-Adding-It-Up;_ylt=Ahla.YA.BG0Jix0Vj8R5gC.7YWsA

article on wages and such of automakers...

[whiskas]

The majority of GM's parts are sourced from AC Delco, so current owners should be OK in that regard. As far as Chrysler is considered they can eat shit and die. There are enough neons in the junkyard here to last me a long time as far as parts go, the rest of the company I don't care about.

[Redlyne_mr2]

Wow this shoudl be interesting.

[5000Audi]

to whomever is all happy abouts this... you are a bunch of assholes.. there are millions of people that work in the big 3 and they will be out of jobs.. and for you to be happy about that it horrible.. i wish the union wasnt such a pos and turn the senete down like that but its also retarded how the government would not give a little bit of money to the companies to save millions of jobs... fuck the government!!! the fall of these companies is going to hit real hard... REAL HARD...

[Zephyr]

Originally posted by 5000Audi
to whomever is all happy abouts this... you are a bunch of assholes.. there are millions of people that work in the big 3 and they will be out of jobs.. and for you to be happy about that it horrible.. i wish the union wasnt such a pos and turn the senete down like that but its also retarded how the government would not give a little bit of money to the companies to save millions of jobs... fuck the government!!! the fall of these companies is going to hit real hard... REAL HARD...

The union fucked this up this time, not the government. Hell, GM and Chrysler got themselves into this mess, not the government. Bush sucks, but even he didn't do this.

[Thomas Gabriel]

I have a family member that will probably end up being homeless if the bailout doesn't go through. I'm still 100% behind not giving the auto industry a single penny. We just can't support failing business plans.

[7thgenvic]

Can you really blame congress?

[Ferio_vti]

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/11/news/companies/auto_bailout_senate/index.htm?postversion=2008121206

[heavyD]

Originally posted by Preslow
Emergency talks breakdown on the bailout:
Workers union won't give in and reduce wages.

http://ca.news.finance.yahoo.com/s/11122008/2/biz-finance-emergency-senate-talks-14-billion-auto-aid-deal.html

Wow. Most of these employees are unskilled labourers that have very little qualifications to make even half or less of that money outside of the auto industry and they would choose no job over decreased wages or benefits? They are putting themselves in position to face the cold hard reality that the gravy train is over.

[yue]

"UAW was willing to make the cuts - but not until 2011."

yeah, my employer has no money but in order to keep my job i will have to take a wage cut. FUCK THAT NOISE! NOT TILL 2011 BABY! oh wait...i might not have a job in 2011. oh well...i'll cross that bridge when i get to it.

[Masked Bandit]

I would be shittin' my pants right now if I worked at a domestic dealership / plant / supplier.

[HiTempguy1]

I have a family member that will probably end up being homeless if the bailout doesn't go through.

That person should "probably" get job searching sooner rather then later. There is no reason we should have to bail out companies and by EXTENSION people that worked for those companies because of poor choices. The workers support the UAW, and the UAW is fucking things up.

[98type_r]

Originally posted by heavyD


Wow. Most of these employees are unskilled labourers that have very little qualifications to make even half or less of that money outside of the auto industry and they would choose no job over decreased wages or benefits? They are putting themselves in position to face the cold hard reality that the gravy train is over.

I read somewhere that less than half of the population of Detroit has a high school education.

[Eleanor]

Originally posted by 98type_r
I read somewhere that less than half of the population of Detroit has a high school education.
I read somewhere that Toyota execs kill puppies :rolleyes:

Link please.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by Eleanor

I read somewhere that Toyota execs kill puppies :rolleyes:

Link please.

I don't know if it's true in regards to Detroit but it is plausible as I lived in a mining town and high school kids of employees would get summer jobs at the mines at over $20/hr (in the 80's) driving a truck or sweeping floors, etc. That is alot of money to a teenager and many would simply stay on as after three months they were in the union and regarded as permanent rather than go back to school in the fall to finish high school, go to college only to get a lower paying job.

[toyboy88]

UAW and workers.... :facepalm: :facepalm:

[01RedDX]

.

[msommers]

Originally posted by heavyD


I don't know if it's true in regards to Detroit but it is plausible as I lived in a mining town and high school kids of employees would get summer jobs at the mines at over $20/hr (in the 80's) driving a truck or sweeping floors, etc. That is alot of money to a teenager and many would simply stay on as after three months they were in the union and regarded as permanent rather than go back to school in the fall to finish high school, go to college only to get a lower paying job.

So basically the rigs here?

[98type_r]

Originally posted by 01RedDX


http://www.clickondetroit.com/education/15759336/detail.html



and another

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-06-20-dropout-rates_x.htm#grad

According to this article, only 21.7% of students who enter high school graduate with a diploma.

[Supa Dexta]

I have some parts sitting at a dealer in town, I better get there soon. :nut:

[Toms-SC]

You should check out the UAW forums. Good shit.

http://www.freepowerboards.com/uaw1268/

[ZenOps]

US denies bailout... Well its pretty much over for autoworkers in Canada.

The US had to use the money to bail out Citi, 700 Billion in bad debts across arguably the 1st or 2nd largest US bank, they had to use 20 billion at first and then another 25 billion to buffer the blow.

If the bank goes insolvent, all sorts of industries including the auto industry would go under. 50 billion spent on the banks goes a hell of a lot further than 50 billion spent on a subset of an industrial manufacturing capacity.

At most, I would have though $500 million bailout for any single auto company. Perhaps $100 million or nothing at all for a telco company (like Nortel) Noone is interested in saving the telco or auto industries right now - I think they should just settle for a continental breakfast, close the plants and move on...

BTW: Nortel is at 38 cents today (actually 3.8 cents pre-consolidation) They will be delisting from the NYSE soon, Chapter 11 is probably beginning of 2010 if not earlier.

[ZenOps]

Originally posted by heavyD


Wow. Most of these employees are unskilled labourers that have very little qualifications to make even half or less of that money outside of the auto industry and they would choose no job over decreased wages or benefits? They are putting themselves in position to face the cold hard reality that the gravy train is over.

So true.

Its beginning to look like CAW will have to live with less than halved wages in another industry (reality bites) I mean - for a long time there were far too many chiefs and too few indians.

Auto workers are definitely not very flexible though. Now that the oilpatch is slowing down a bit, even those that can weld pipeline are no longer in demand.

[Antonito]

I guess they figured that since the execs at various banks can't seem to stop giving themselves multi-million dollar bonuses and they got the bailout money anyways, that they'd get the money if they played hardball too

I think they forgot that they aren't bribing congress members nearly enough to get those kinds of favours. :nut:

[Tik-Tok]

Hmm, I wonder what will happen to our pilots if the Big 3 go down (our pilots union is CAW)

[in*10*se]

Originally posted by 5000Audi
to whomever is all happy abouts this... you are a bunch of assholes.. there are millions of people that work in the big 3 and they will be out of jobs.. and for you to be happy about that it horrible.. i wish the union wasnt such a pos and turn the senete down like that but its also retarded how the government would not give a little bit of money to the companies to save millions of jobs... fuck the government!!! the fall of these companies is going to hit real hard... REAL HARD...

its called capitalism... no government involvement... so really the government should not have to bail any particular company out... course its a shame for all those employees to lose their jobs, but look, its just darwinism/capitalism. the strongest survive, whereas the weakest will die. all the japanese and european car companies are fine, you don't see them asking for handouts... clearly the 'big' 3 have no idea how to run a business, and thus, since they don't know how to, they're bankrupt, plain and simple

[Antonito]

Originally posted by in*10*se


its called capitalism... no government involvement... so really the government should not have to bail any particular company out... course its a shame for all those employees to lose their jobs, but look, its just darwinism/capitalism. the strongest survive, whereas the weakest will die. all the japanese and european car companies are fine, you don't see them asking for handouts... clearly the 'big' 3 have no idea how to run a business, and thus, since they don't know how to, they're bankrupt, plain and simple

People keep saying this...but they never answer the actual question of what to do about all the things that come with "darwinism", such as rampant unemployment.

Yes, I get it, you have a hard on for free markets. That's great. Get to the point where you advocate something that makes them work while not making the country suck

[szw]

Originally posted by in*10*se


its called capitalism... no government involvement... so really the government should not have to bail any particular company out... course its a shame for all those employees to lose their jobs, but look, its just darwinism/capitalism. the strongest survive, whereas the weakest will die. all the japanese and european car companies are fine, you don't see them asking for handouts... clearly the 'big' 3 have no idea how to run a business, and thus, since they don't know how to, they're bankrupt, plain and simple

Are the japanese and european car companies receiving incentives from their home countries?

[szw]

I don't buy into this BS that overpaid unions are to blame. Sure i'm jealous that they make so much and I don't think they deserve it, but the executives making huge bonuses and pay really outshine any high paid low skilled workers wages (even collectively). Its not the union workers who decided to design and build shitty cars nobody wants to buy, which is the main point IMO.

[eljefe]

Originally posted by szw
I don't buy into this BS that overpaid unions are to blame. Sure i'm jealous that they make so much and I don't think they deserve it, but the executives making huge bonuses and pay really outshine any high paid low skilled workers wages (even collectively). Its not the union workers who decided to design and build shitty cars nobody wants to buy, which is the main point IMO.


If the Big Three were to decrease union wages on their 240,000 employees by $5/ hour it would mean net savings before extra payroll expenses of at least 2.5 billion** per year.

** based on a 40 hour work week, excluding overtime.

[szw]

Originally posted by eljefe



If the Big Three were to decrease union wages on their 240,000 employees by $5/ hour it would mean net savings before extra payroll expenses of at least 2.5 billion** per year.

** based on a 40 hour work week, excluding overtime.

How much does Toyota pay their north american employees?

[Redlyne_mr2]

Originally posted by szw


How much does Toyota pay their north american employees?
It's not 73/hour. IIRC it's around $30, also many of the employees are contract meaning Toyota doesn't have to pay them benefits. Toyota is notorious for doing this in Japan. A huge portion of their factory workers are "parttime". Toyota offers them hope of a possible full time position and they work hard without benefits in hopes of a promotion. They're sort of bastards to work for.

[Supa Dexta]

The michelin factories do the same back east. Do a trial period in hopes of getting a full time gig. And people are happy to do so.

[Antonito]

Originally posted by szw


Are the japanese and european car companies receiving incentives from their home countries?

Yeah, it's called Universal Healthcare :rofl:



Originally posted by Redlyne_mr2

It's not 73/hour. IIRC it's around $30, also many of the employees are contract meaning Toyota doesn't have to pay them benefits. Toyota is notorious for doing this in Japan. A huge portion of their factory workers are "parttime". Toyota offers them hope of a possible full time position and they work hard without benefits in hopes of a promotion. They're sort of bastards to work for.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081212/ap_on_go_co/congress_autos




Hourly wages for UAW workers at GM factories are about equal to those paid by Toyota Motor Corp. at its older U.S. factories, according to the companies. GM says the average UAW laborer makes $29.78 per hour, while Toyota says it pays about $30 per hour. But the unionized factories have far higher benefit costs.

GM says its total hourly labor costs are now $69, including wages, pensions and health care for active workers, plus the pension and health care costs of more than 432,000 retirees and spouses. Toyota says its total costs are around $48. The Japanese automaker has far fewer retirees and its pension and health care benefits are not as rich as those paid to UAW workers.

[01RedDX]

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[eljefe]

Originally posted by 01RedDX


Agreed. That's all you hear about "Blame Unions! Healthcare!"

I doubt they would be in a better financial position if they paid their employees $5/hour.

I blame poor management.

Unions have in many cases outlived and outgrown their usefullness. I for one agree that unions are partially responsible for the mess that exists. Certainly not entirely, but for sure a contributing factor. The inception of unions was for all the right reasons, but they have become a power hungry three headed monster that wields far to much power and have helped to undermine the financial health of to many companies.

[szw]

Originally posted by eljefe



If the Big Three were to decrease union wages on their 240,000 employees by $5/ hour it would mean net savings before extra payroll expenses of at least 2.5 billion** per year.

** based on a 40 hour work week, excluding overtime.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/business/economy/10leonhardt.html?_r=1

You may have seen this article already but its a good one that goes into the actual numbers and the effect they have on the cars produced. I wish it went into even more detail with the numbers. Here is a quote:

So here’s a little experiment. Imagine that a Congressional bailout effectively pays for $10 an hour of the retiree benefits. That’s roughly the gap between the Big Three’s retiree costs and those of the Japanese-owned plants in this country. Imagine, also, that the U.A.W. agrees to reduce pay and benefits for current workers to $45 an hour — the same as at Honda and Toyota.

Do you know how much that would reduce the cost of producing a Big Three vehicle? Only about $800.

That’s because labor costs, for all the attention they have been receiving, make up only about 10 percent of the cost of making a vehicle. An extra $800 per vehicle would certainly help Detroit, but the Big Three already often sell their cars for about $2,500 less than equivalent cars from Japanese companies, analysts at the International Motor Vehicle Program say. Even so, many Americans no longer want to own the cars being made by General Motors, Ford and Chrysler.

[eljefe]

Nice find.

Although it is only about 800 bucks per vehicle- it does show that wage reform is a must as part of the overall reform needed in the North American auto industry. In 2007 almost 11 million cars were built in the US, if 4 million of those were GM that translates to 3.2 billion in savings. There is no doubt what so ever that wage reform is only one component that needs to be adressed by each of the big 3. Another is certainly brand consolidation- take Honda or Toyota and compare how many Models are available compared to any of Ford GM or Chrysler.