all season tires

[mekanic]

my daughter drives a 2002 Toyota RAV4 4x4. The vehicle has tires size: P235x60R16
She drives an average amount of miles per year, mostly in the city, with little highway miles. We live in the Hamilton Ontario area so we get our fair share of snow.

We are looking for recommendations on new all-season tires.
Thanks for your help.

[r0g3r]

maybe consider some winter tires, if your going to drive in the snow?

[civic_stylez]

the compounds for all season tires freeze in sub zero temperatures and make all season tires essentially useless. There reall is no such thing as an all season tire..( maybe if you live in California or Florida) for Canada, run winter tires, once you have them you will never go back to all seasons.

[badatusrnames]

All-seasons are a compromise tire, they do everything mediocre, but nothing well.

As was mentioned, at the temperatures we see in Canada, all seasons become ineffective in winter.

Get her winter tires.

[Ferio_vti]

Nokian All Weathers:
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/hl/nokian.htm

[rc2002]

With the weight of the RAV4 combined with 4WD, winter tires aren't a necessity. How are the roads in Hamilton? Do they keep them quite clear?

If so, then a set of good all seasons would be good. The oem all season tires on my dad's RX400h do very well in winter. Better than all of my cars do with winter tires on.

[mobius]

Originally posted by richardchan2002
With the weight of the RAV4 combined with 4WD, winter tires aren't a necessity.

Are you kidding? Weight and 4x4 make it even more imperative to have proper winter tires. A heavier vehicle means it's going to take more time and better traction to stop in a given distance.

And while 4x4 may help you gain traction to get going in some conditions, it sure as hell doesn't help you stop or turn any better (for the average driver with no performance orientated experience). In fact, it lulls a lot of people into a false sense of security, letting them believe that the conditions are not as bad as they really are.

I'm not saying that winter tires have to be used, but don't spread blatantly false information.

[benyl]

Originally posted by richardchan2002
With the weight of the RAV4 combined with 4WD, winter tires aren't a necessity. How are the roads in Hamilton? Do they keep them quite clear?

If so, then a set of good all seasons would be good. The oem all season tires on my dad's RX400h do very well in winter. Better than all of my cars do with winter tires on.

I call BS :bullshit: :bullshit:

[alloroc]

Originally posted by richardchan2002
With the weight of the RAV4 combined with 4WD, winter tires aren't a necessity. How are the roads in Hamilton? Do they keep them quite clear?

If so, then a set of good all seasons would be good. The oem all season tires on my dad's RX400h do very well in winter. Better than all of my cars do with winter tires on.

Bad Bad Bad advice, and bullshit: to boot! How can you suggest something to someone that could be life threatening? See below for actual SUV test results...

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=109





The braking comparison measured the tires' ability to provide traction during an ABS-assisted panic stop in a straight line. We drove the two Cayennes side-by-side at a speed of 30 mph, gave both drivers a braking signal at the prescribed mark and compared the distances it took them to come to a complete stop. The winter tire-equipped Cayenne stopped in an average distance of about 61 feet, while the all-season tire-equipped Cayenne took 102 feet (an additional 41 feet or about two and one-half car lengths). A 41-foot difference in stopping distance during a panic stop at 30 mph on a snow-packed road is more than enough to determine whether it's a near miss or an accident!


Additionally, while the all-wheel drive Cayenne offered noticeably faster acceleration than the rear-wheel drive sedan, the winter tire-equipped BMW's 59-foot stopping distance and all-season tire-equipped 89-foot stopping distance showed that all-wheel drive didn't really offer a measurable advantage when it came to stopping.

[Kaos]

I somewhat agree with Richard on this one but not fully. When I had my pilot, it was pretty decent with all seasons. I wouldn't necessarily say it would be better than SUV's with winter tires but somewhat better than a car with winter tires.
Putting winter tires on a 4WD makes it that much better to drive in the snow.

Although all seasons are fine but winter tires would be a better choice. Spend the extra cash and get spare set of wheels & tires.

[leec001]

Originally posted by richardchan2002
With the weight of the RAV4 combined with 4WD, winter tires aren't a necessity. How are the roads in Hamilton? Do they keep them quite clear?

If so, then a set of good all seasons would be good. The oem all season tires on my dad's RX400h do very well in winter. Better than all of my cars do with winter tires on.

Totally BS! Ideally, this is true if you are driving on a totally flat surface.

-RAV4 is a real-time 4WD system inwhich the 4WD will turn off when you go over 40km/h or step on the brake. If there is no other vehicles infront of you, it will be fine. You have to press the lock button again and again.

[alloroc]

Originally posted by Kaos
I somewhat agree with Richard on this one but not fully. When I had my pilot, it was pretty decent with all seasons. I wouldn't necessarily say it would be better than SUV's with winter tires but somewhat better than a car with winter tires.
Putting winter tires on a 4WD makes it that much better to drive in the snow.

Although all seasons are fine but winter tires would be a better choice. Spend the extra cash and get spare set of wheels & tires.

SUV's do not stop better than cars. ...
Ever.


If you think you need winters on your car you definetly need them on your SUV. ...
Period.

[Kloubek]

I think people are underestimating the ability of SOME all-seasons to do well in the winter. Yes, a winter tire is made of compound that remains softer in the colder weather. But to say that all-seasons are essentially "useless" in the winter is a stretch. They are just not AS good.

OP: You have a few options....

1) Buy a set of steel rims, and mount snow tires on them.
2) Keep switching between all seasons and winters every season. (Dumb and expensive idea.)
3) Stick with all-seasons.

Honestly, if it was me and I was on a limited budget, I would pick option #3. Option #1 is, of course, your best choice if you can afford it.

If you go with all-seasons, you are best to look at a site like tirerack.com. They have comprehensive reviews of tires, so you can see how they rate in snow and ice. Some all seasons actually get pretty good marks.....

[rc2002]

My weight argument is valid. Added weight and 4WD will both work towards improving traction.

All of the cars I have had winter tires on have been 2WD (the majority of them FWD). I have gotten stuck and have spun tires in all gears of all of those cars. In the RX, I have yet to get wheelspin or get stuck and I've driven it in the last few days.

All the hardcore winter tire lovers in this thread need to give their heads a shake. Idiot comments like "winter tires are a must" are just ignorant fear mongering. The majority of drivers here don't have winter tires and get around just fine.

That said, it is nice to have winter tires. I've owned 9 sets of winter tires of the last 5 years. 99% of the time, they're not even necessary. But for sub-average drivers who aren't vigilant of their surroundings the decreased stopping distance could help mitigate or even avoid accidents.

[benyl]

All seasons are mediocre at best on any vehicle in any season. They really only work in the shoulder seasons where it is too cold to get summers up to temp and too warm for winters not to be squishy.

4WD will not help in stopping and thus will not work toward improving traction in the most important way.

[r0g3r]

Originally posted by richardchan2002
My weight argument is valid. Added weight and 4WD will both work towards improving traction.

All of the cars I have had winter tires on have been 2WD (the majority of them FWD). I have gotten stuck and have spun tires in all gears of all of those cars. In the RX, I have yet to get wheelspin or get stuck and I've driven it in the last few days.

All the hardcore winter tire lovers in this thread need to give their heads a shake. Idiot comments like "winter tires are a must" are just ignorant fear mongering. The majority of drivers here don't have winter tires and get around just fine.

That said, it is nice to have winter tires. I've owned 9 sets of winter tires of the last 5 years. 99% of the time, they're not even necessary. But for sub-average drivers who aren't vigilant of their surroundings the decreased stopping distance could help mitigate or even avoid accidents.

yea I agree with you here, the traction depends on the weight of the car but it also depends on the coefficient of friction of the material in contact (ice) which determines your traction. So yes winter tires can help due to the softer compound during colder weather, which increases the surface area in the contacting point.

[leec001]

Originally posted by richardchan2002
My weight argument is valid. Added weight and 4WD will both work towards improving traction.

All of the cars I have had winter tires on have been 2WD (the majority of them FWD). I have gotten stuck and have spun tires in all gears of all of those cars. In the RX, I have yet to get wheelspin or get stuck and I've driven it in the last few days.

All the hardcore winter tire lovers in this thread need to give their heads a shake. Idiot comments like "winter tires are a must" are just ignorant fear mongering. The majority of drivers here don't have winter tires and get around just fine.

That said, it is nice to have winter tires. I've owned 9 sets of winter tires of the last 5 years. 99% of the time, they're not even necessary. But for sub-average drivers who aren't vigilant of their surroundings the decreased stopping distance could help mitigate or even avoid accidents.

Probably you didn't go out last Sunday.
I have seen Chev Z71 4X4 truck with no winter tire, at the intersection of John Larue Blvd going west (just a little slope) and Shaganappi, spinning, burning the tires, cannot move an inch - same as other small cars.

:cry:

[alloroc]

Originally posted by richardchan2002
My weight argument is valid. Added weight and 4WD will both work towards improving traction.


Theory is right application is wrong. More wieght - increased stopping distance. See the test results I posted.


Originally posted by richardchan2002

All of the cars I have had winter tires on have been 2WD (the majority of them FWD). I have gotten stuck and have spun tires in all gears of all of those cars. In the RX, I have yet to get wheelspin or get stuck and I've driven it in the last few days.

Getting stuck has nothing to do with accident avoidance in snowy or cold dry conditions.


Originally posted by richardchan2002

All the hardcore winter tire lovers in this thread need to give their heads a shake. Idiot comments like "winter tires are a must" are just ignorant fear mongering. The majority of drivers here don't have winter tires and get around just fine.

The OP asked a question. It was answered, winter tires are a better choice for his daughter. I know I would want the same for my children. He also doesn't live 'around here.' The majority of drivers get around just fine ... until they get into a collision.


[i]That said, it is nice to have winter tires. I've owned 9 sets of winter tires of the last 5 years. 99% of the time, they're not even necessary. [/B]

9 sets? You use them, but you don't recommend them? Interesting.


Originally posted by richardchan2002

99% of the time, they're not even necessary. But for sub-average drivers who aren't vigilant of their surroundings the decreased stopping distance could help mitigate or even avoid accidents.
So you know the OP's daughter and her driving skills? Sounds like a new driver to me. Remember there are two cars in a collision, 'you', may be Paul Tracy for all I know but as careful as you are there are others who will do dumb things that will require you to take action. A truck jumped a red in front of me last saturday morning on my way to COP. I stopped in time, the fellow beside me (pathfinder) slid through the intersection rotated sideways missed the truck by mere inches and sideswiped the light standard on the other side of the street.


Originally posted by richardchan2002
But for sub-average drivers who aren't vigilant of their surroundings the decreased stopping distance could help mitigate or even avoid accidents.

^Lets take the prepositional phrase out of that sentence so it makes more sense.


Originally posted by richardchan2002
decreased stopping distance could help mitigate or even avoid accidents.

Agreed.

[leec001]

http://www.canadiandriver.com/winter/070228.htm

Good tires are the best item you can put on your vehicle to maintain control. Summer tires may provide great traction on warm dry pavement, but winter tires work much better when temperatures drop below freezing or the pavement is icy or wet. Most new vehicles come with all season tires. These work most of the time, but when road conditions get bad they don't grip nearly as well as winter tires.

[rc2002]

Getting stuck has nothing to do with accident avoidance in snowy or cold dry conditions.
There are two separate thoughts here - Accident avoidance and getting stuck are two different topics. Like Benyl already pointed out, I wasn’t talking about braking traction. It’s pretty obvious when I talk about getting stuck that I’m talking about moving traction to get unstuck.



The OP asked a question. It was answered, winter tires are a better choice for his daughter..
Actually, the in OP’s original post, he wasn’t asking whether winter tires were better than all seasons. He was looking for recommendations on all season tires for his daughter. He may have already made up his mind on getting all seasons, he may not have the budget or the storage space for 2 sets of tires. Ferio_vti is the only one who has answered the OP’s original request.



9 sets? You use them, but you don't recommend them? Interesting.
Yes I have had 9 sets of various brands and models. I drive many cars – some with all seasons, some with winter tires. I’ve found that a set of good all seasons with decent tread doesn’t differ all that much in performance from a true winter tire.



Agreed.
You use big words like “prepositional phrase” to try to bend my words to suit your train of thought. But in doing so, you take it out of context and the meaning changes. Of course decreased stopping distances can help mitigate or avoid accidents. You could explain this to a 5 year old and he would understand it. The idea here is that sub-average drivers do not look far enough ahead. They don’t prepare themselves for what’s coming so they’re more likely to benefit from the decreased stopping distance. I’ve never been in a situation where lack of winter tires has saved me from an accident before because when I drive on all seasons, I drive accordingly.

[max_boost]

Other than not being able to afford them I have no idea why more people don't get winter tires.

Winter tires are designed for *gasp*, winter! What a shocker. If they aren't needed or can't be utilized, why the hell would they be marketed and sold? OMFG. What a scam! LOL

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I bet you could probably get by most of winter with your best all season jacket but that doesn't mean when it's really fucking cold i.e. -30, you can't use a nice warm 'winter' jacket. It's not really a must and you probably don't need it 99% of the time either.

[max_boost]

Originally posted by richardchan2002

I’ve found that a set of good all seasons with decent tread doesn’t differ all that much in performance from a true winter tire.


No way Richard, I can't believe this is coming from you!

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[leec001]

Originally posted by max_boost


No way Richard, I can't believe this is coming from you!

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Probably Richard means
I’ve found that a set of good NOKIAN ALL WEATHER TIRE with decent tread doesn’t differ all that much in performance from a true winter tire.
:rofl:

[Neil4Speed]

Not getting winter tires when you drive your car in Calgary year round is daft. It is a very small investment for your safety, and insurance against an accident which could have been caused by poor traction.

Winters on Alloys cost about 1k and last you about 4 years if not more. One bounce off a guardrail would cost you more!

[06civic]

My accord with all seasons actually performs better in winter than my last car 06 civic with blizzacks.

[leec001]

Originally posted by 06civic
My accord with all seasons actually performs better in winter than my last car 06 civic with blizzacks.

1st year new all season may be better than the used winter tires, next year....................good luck!

[max_boost]

Originally posted by 06civic
My accord with all seasons actually performs better in winter than my last car 06 civic with blizzacks.

LOL

I find that hard to believe but whatever.

[imjimmylin]

Just from driving around these last couple of days I'm more comfortable driving my S2000 with Blizzaks then my gf's WRX that has all season tires. Just my opinion...

[06civic]

Originally posted by max_boost


LOL

I find that hard to believe but whatever.

not that iam against winter tires I think everyone should have them. I just wanted to share something i found interesting that might be related to what richardchan was saying..

[alloroc]

Originally posted by Neil4Speed
Not getting winter tires when you drive your car in Calgary year round is daft. It is a very small investment for your safety, and insurance against an accident which could have been caused by poor traction.

Winters on Alloys cost about 1k and last you about 4 years if not more. One bounce off a guardrail would cost you more!

I understand how the initial costs are larger but I think it is cheaper in the long run.

I change out every 6 months (november -> march) and purchase summer tires once the all seasons that come with the car wear out. Summers do last a little longer and handle much better than all seasons do, and all seasons and winter tires really don't wear much differently in the cold months. So I get better handling and braking year round for the same price or less.

I guess what it really boils down to is laziness. Spending 20-30 minutes twice a year swapping tires is just too much for some.

The only excuse I can think of that may be useful is storage. Some apt dwellers may not have a place to store the tires on rims. I think it would be cool if tire shops offered this service to repeat clients.

[gretz]

Originally posted by alloroc



The only excuse I can think of that may be useful is storage. Some apt dwellers may not have a place to store the tires on rims. I think it would be cool if tire shops offered this service to repeat clients.

Imagine if bob stored all his repeat customers' tires? Fack

[Eken9]

Originally posted by max_boost


LOL

I find that hard to believe but whatever.

LOL as do I. Maintain your tire pressures. All seasons are complete junk. Even the best of All seasons are still junk.
Mediocre for summer, average for winter.

I'd rather just do what was mentioned above. Summer specifics as well as winters.

[alloroc]

Originally posted by gretz


Imagine if bob stored all his repeat customers' tires? Fack

If he had a small warehouse with decent racks and if he charged a reasonable storage fee he would profit.

[msommers]

How the hell does this debate keep coming up:confused:

[jaylo]

Originally posted by msommers
How the hell does this debate keep coming up:confused:

Its the never ending saga between the "I am very good at driving/my vehicles handles well enough, no need for winter tires" people VS the "No matter how good of a driver I am, I do not want to risk it when making emergency maneuver so I need winter tires for winter" people

[max_boost]

Originally posted by jaylo


Its the never ending saga between the "I am very good at driving/my vehicles handles well enough, no need for winter tires" people VS the "No matter how good of a driver I am, I do not want to risk it when making emergency maneuver so I need winter tires for winter" people

QFT!

[xviper]

I wasn’t talking about braking traction
My dear Mr. Chan. I've been reading your posts here for quite some time. Sometimes, you are right, but a lot of the times, you don't seem to know your ass from a hole in the ground. In those cases, I don't respond because it just doesn't matter. I leave you to your warped way of looking at the world when nobody gets hurt. But in this case, if the OP takes what you say seriously, it may get his daughter killed.
You aren't talking about braking? MY GAWD, Richie, are you fucking kidding me? Geesus Murphy! BRAKING and CORNERING must be included in the equation when speaking of tire performance, especially in winter conditions. You can't be serious if you believe that getting stuck and unstuck is the only consideration when driving around a typical Canadian city in winter. Getting going is nice but it's far more important to be able to brake when you have to and turn when you have to. In cases of emergencies, braking and turning can be a life threatening situation. I could give a ratsass if it takes me a 1/2 block to get moving, but when something bad happens and my ass starts to pucker up, stopping and turning is critical.
Police cars (Crown Vics) run all season tires and they get by OK, but keep in mind that cops are professional drivers and that's what they do almost their whole shift. They really know how to drive and they know how to avoid situations that might get them into trouble most of the time. As for the OP's daughter, can any of us make the assumption that she drives like a cop? Can we make recommendations based on that? NO! We must make recommendations based on the worst case scenario because we don't know what kind of driver she is.


My accord with all seasons actually performs better in winter than my last car 06 civic with blizzacks.
1. Please define "performs".
2. Please indicate what type of all seasons tires and what series of Blizzaks you are comparing.
3. Please stipulate the sizes used in each case.
4. Please characterize the type of road surface you were driving on that you used to make the comparison.

Until you do, I'm calling BULLSHIT on this one. If you have the exact same size of all seasons tires as for the most aggressive Blizzaks series (old MZ, REVO 1 or WS series), on the exact same car, the Blizzak will move off better, stop better and turn better in deep snow, ice, slush. Remember, we're talking "winter" conditions here and that's what snow, ice, slush is. If you are driving around on cold dry roads between November and April, this is not considered "winter" conditions.

To the OP, if you are wanting your daughter to have the best tires to safeguard her driving well being, then get the best winter tires you can afford (or she can afford). There is no compromise when it comes to the safety of our children. The Nokian tires posted up earlier is a good option but realize that even though Nokian classes this tire as "all season", it is far more aggressive a snow tire than most all season brands. Nokian has a history of making some of the most aggressive snow tires in the world for passenger cars. It is only fitting that their all season classification bares the distinction of being a really good winter tire. However, as all seasons go, you will find that the Nokian won't be quite as good a summer tire as a dedicated summer tire. That's the compromise.
For a RAV 4 (an AWD and not a true 4X4), other good options would be the Blizzak WS series or Michelin Alpin series. I'm sure other brand name manufacturers will have a pretty decent winter tire, but I'll leave you with this.

[imjimmylin]

^

I'm gonna have to agree 100% :thumbsup:

Like I said earlier in my post, I feel way more comfortable driving around in these conditions we've had the last couple of days with my S2000 with the Blizzak WS-60's, then in my girlfriends WRX that has a set of Kumho all seasons.

[Swank]

Is tire type relevant when the same 1/2" layer of snow is stuck to an all season as is stuck to a winter tire? I would think the rubber compound would only make a difference when it is in direct contact with a solid surface. The tread pattern might make a bit of difference in channeling the powder away, but in all of the powder we're driving on this week I can't see tire type having much, if any, bearing until the powder has had a chance to fall away from the rubber. I try to stay 3-4 inches off the packed path, towards the curb, as traction is far better on snow than on ice. Down-shifting with just enough brake to get the brake lights on is by far my preference than just braking when the need to slow to a stop is required.

[xviper]

Originally posted by Swank
Is tire type relevant when the same 1/2" layer of snow is stuck to an all season as is stuck to a winter tire? I would think the rubber compound would only make a difference when it is in direct contact with a solid surface. The tread pattern might make a bit of difference in channeling the powder away, but in all of the powder we're driving on this week I can't see tire type having much, if any, bearing until the powder has had a chance to fall away from the rubber. I try to stay 3-4 inches off the packed path, towards the curb, as traction is far better on snow than on ice. Down-shifting with just enough brake to get the brake lights on is by far my preference than just braking when the need to slow to a stop is required.
Yes, it is very relevant. You have to understand how snow packs to become a more solid consistency and how the type of tire tread design and rubber composition helps to achieve traction.
When the weight of the car compresses a layer of snow, there is a slight melting going on and the molecular interaction changes in the compacted snow. A dedicated winter tire has the ability to yield just enough to aid in this compaction, melting, re-freezing of snow. This allows one layer of snow to stick to another. The usually bigger grooves also has a part to play in traction. The siping of a snow tire is somewhat different than an all season tire. This increases the bite on that compacted snow and ice. Also, the snow tire tread does allow for much better clearing of the tread when it's rolling. You can't judge how well this is happening by looking at a tire that's just stopped rolling. The last couple of rotations are so slow that snow clearing out of the treads doesn't happen.
I apologize for not being more scientific in my explanation, but this compacting, melting, re-freezing, snow adhesion to itself was clearly demonstrated only a couple of days ago on Daily Planet. You can't make a snow ball if the snow is too cold. Human strength can only exert several pounds of compression force when trying to compress snow into a unified structure. A car can exert hundreds of pounds of compression on each tire when it rolls over snow and even at very cold temps, that's enough to produce this phenomena.
Of course traction is better on snow than hard packed snow or ice. This is simply a matter of physics. It's the coefficient of friction difference between the two media. Driving on the least driven part of the road is a good idea. There is a greater ability to do the "snowball" thing.
Snow tire tread construction and design will vastly improve your traction both on snow and ice. They have the right grooves for snow and they have the right siping for ice. The softness of the rubber compound will aid in the grooves and siping to do their respective jobs better than all season tires.
People tend to want to find any rationale for doing without snow tires. They'll even think up reasons based on observations that they don't readily understand to justify not getting snow tires. This is bad reasoning. If you don't want to spend the money, then admit it. You don't want to spend the money. Leave it at that.
Downshifting with just enough braking .................... Easier said than done. Let's say you have a FWD car, you downshift too soon, at too high an rpm on a surface that is a bit more slippery than you could guess. The front wheels lock up and you lose all ability to steer and the front end veers off to the side. You can't do a thing till the car slows enough for the wheel speed to match the road speed. If it's a standard, no biggie. You push in the clutch. If it's an automatic, you throw it back into the last gear or into neutral. However, when your car is veering toward the car in the next lane, will you have enough wits about you to do what it takes to get it under control? Compound that with tires that don't work worth crap and you're headed for misery.
If it's a RWD car and you do the same thing, the back end slides out, but you can counter steer a bit and this gives you time to undo the last mistake. On most RWD cars, when you push on the brakes, the front brakes work but the rear brakes are overpowered by the drive wheels. The back end drives itself sideways even after you've stopped.
If it's an AWD and you lock up all 4 wheels because you downshifted when you shouldn't have, you have no steering and the whole car goes sideways. You are SCREWED. But then, that's what stability control is for on cars that have it.
The best case scenario when you just have to stop under control on a very slippery surface is to disconnect power to the drive wheels and pump the brakes as fast as you can and continue to steer as required. Of course, if you have ABS, this will do it for you. On shear ice, ABS is actually not as good. You need to lock up the tires so a thin layer of shaved ice forms in front of each tire.

[flipstah]

http://www.hostellingtremblant.com/images/gallery/8-dogsled.gif

Ultimate Winter Vehicle.

Just gotta watch out for the emissions though.

[alloroc]

Originally posted by xviper
... inciteful knowlege ...


Oh mister user number 1157 - you need to post more often.

[alloroc]

Oh ...


Originally posted by richardchan2002
That said, it is nice to have winter tires. I've owned 9 sets of winter tires of the last 5 years. 99% of the time, they're not even necessary. But for sub-average drivers who aren't vigilant of their surroundings the decreased stopping distance could help mitigate or even avoid accidents.


So I was reading some of xvipers previous posts and tripped over this in another thread.




Originally posted by richardchan2002 I'll admit it, I probably fall into the bad driver category. I've had lots of close calls - but still I like having the security of having something there to fall back on when I screw up.



Originally posted by richardchan2002
After driving with VSA in the winter, I would never go back. I avoided quite a few accidents last winter because of VSA.





:facepalm:

[Swank]

Thanks for the info xviper, that's good info to have.

[xviper]

Originally posted by alloroc
Oh ...




So I was reading some of xvipers previous posts and tripped over this in another thread.









:facepalm:
Glad that you had the patience to find those. I'm sure there are plenty others. He appears to be a walking, talking, typing DICHOTOMY of whimsical thought and phylosophy. :dunno:

[rc2002]

Originally posted by xviper

Glad that you had the patience to find those. I'm sure there are plenty others. He appears to be a walking, talking, typing DICHOTOMY of whimsical thought and phylosophy. :dunno:

What's a phylosophy?

[Neil4Speed]

Good posts XViper, I have never met anyone so passionate about tires lol

[rc2002]

Originally posted by alloroc
Oh ...
So I was reading some of xvipers previous posts and tripped over this in another thread.


*edit*

I've edited my post because I've decided I don't want to resort to personal attacks. It seems like your allroc post is a lame attempt at a personal attack.



So you've dug up some of my previous posts about where I write about my driving habits. Good for you.

You do realize that driving habits change over time right? Insurance drops when you turn 25 - why do you think that is?

Experience has helped me learn to drive according to conditions, to look and make sure I'm aware of what's going on as far ahead as I can see. In the past, I was probably part of the sub-average category that I mentioned.

[rc2002]

Originally posted by xviper

My dear Mr. Chan. I've been reading your posts here for quite some time. Sometimes, you are right, but a lot of the times, you don't seem to know your ass from a hole in the ground. In those cases, I don't respond because it just doesn't matter. I leave you to your warped way of looking at the world when nobody gets hurt. But in this case, if the OP takes what you say seriously, it may get his daughter killed.
You aren't talking about braking? MY GAWD, Richie, are you fucking kidding me? Geesus Murphy! BRAKING and CORNERING must be included in the equation when speaking of tire performance, especially in winter conditions. You can't be serious if you believe that getting stuck and unstuck is the only consideration when driving around a typical Canadian city in winter. Getting going is nice but it's far more important to be able to brake when you have to and turn when you have to. In cases of emergencies, braking and turning can be a life threatening situation. I could give a ratsass if it takes me a 1/2 block to get moving, but when something bad happens and my ass starts to pucker up, stopping and turning is critical.
Police cars (Crown Vics) run all season tires and they get by OK, but keep in mind that cops are professional drivers and that's what they do almost their whole shift. They really know how to drive and they know how to avoid situations that might get them into trouble most of the time. As for the OP's daughter, can any of us make the assumption that she drives like a cop? Can we make recommendations based on that? NO! We must make recommendations based on the worst case scenario because we don't know what kind of driver she is.


You've touched on the advantages of winter tires and you're an advocater of them. Congratulations.

On the other hand, I just don't think they're necessary. You can write all you want about physics, and TV programs you watched, but that's not going to change my opinion. My opinion is based on my knowledge and past experience, not yours.

Winter tires are a calculated risk. It's like collision insurance. Not everyone has it, and some people don't buy it because they don't feel it's necessary. That's their prerogative. Who are you to tell them otherwise?

You can try to steer this thread with your wordy posts, and but in the end people are still entitled to share their opinion. Welcome to a public forum.

[leec001]

Richard,

are you the ones driving around 30km/hr on Crowchild Trail/John Laure Blvd this morning at the very left lane? :rofl:
For those of you who drive 30km/h, stay in the far left lane, please move to the far right lane. Don't block the traffic................... :banghead:

[msommers]

Originally posted by richardchan2002


You've touched on the advantages of winter tires and you're an advocater of them. Congratulations.

On the other hand, I just don't think they're necessary. You can write all you want about physics, and TV programs you watched, but that's not going to change my opinion. My opinion is based on my knowledge and past experience, not yours.

Winter tires are a calculated risk. It's like collision insurance. Not everyone has it, and some people don't buy it because they don't feel it's necessary. That's their prerogative. Who are you to tell them otherwise?

You can try to steer this thread with your wordy posts, and but in the end people are still entitled to share their opinion. Welcome to a public forum.

Just out of curiosity, do you think it's necessary to wear a helmet when on a motorbike?

[rc2002]

Originally posted by msommers


Just out of curiosity, do you think it's necessary to wear a helmet when on a motorbike?

It's law to wear a helmet on a motorbike. Last I checked, it's not law to have collision coverage or winter tires.

[06civic]

Originally posted by msommers


Just out of curiosity, do you think it's necessary to wear a helmet when on a motorbike?

Just out of curiosity, do you think it's necessary to wear a helmet when on a bicycle?

[max_boost]

If every car had stability control and the owner slapped on a set of winters, I'm willing to bet the number of collisions would be reduced significantly.

I had traction control on my two previous automatic BMW's, combined with some soft Blizzaks, the thing was a tank in this weather. The car was dummy proof! I could not believe it! Maybe it was the illusion of control but I sure felt in control! When I first told this to all my friends, none of them believed me, then I would let them drive my car and their response was like :eek: :bigpimp:

[leec001]

Originally posted by richardchan2002


It's law to wear a helmet on a motorbike. Last I checked, it's not law to have collision coverage or winter tires.

Why don't people wear flip-flops all year around? It is not the law, right?

[Eken9]

^:werd: Maxboost

I have all seasons, I drive responsibly. However the all seasons are not by choice. I left my winter rims at my friends house far away and now I can't make it there safely lol.

Winter tires are not only safe, but they are a blast to drive with in the winter.

All seasons get old fast in this weather. Going only 30-40KM safely while keeping major distance is a pain. Not to mention the spinning tires which result in a burning clutch and reduced braking ability.

I'd rather have my snow tires on and drive normal for these conditions and having a peace of mind I won't get stuck in deep snow. Which has already happend with my all seasons (luckily my driveway) where as my mom's car with snowtires make it up no problem in the same conditions. Michelin X-Ice ! Those drive amazing.

[msommers]

Originally posted by richardchan2002
It's law to wear a helmet on a motorbike. Yes it is the law. Do you know why?


Originally posted by 06civic
Just out of curiosity, do you think it's necessary to wear a helmet when on a bicycle? Yes actually I do. The phase of being 'cool' because you don't have a helmet on is long gone.

[xviper]

Originally posted by richardchan2002


What's a phylosophy?
Nice come back, Richie! You can't fault me for my logic and reasoning, so all you can do is to get me on spelling. ATTABOY, Richie. Give the man a Chicklets. You win! Everyone cheer.


Last I checked, it's not law to have collision coverage or winter tires.
Keep checking, Mr. Chan. It's already happened down east. Wonder why? It's coming, big boy. Winter tires ARE mandatory in more and more provinces. And to compare collision coverage to winter tires? Give yourself another Chicklets. Just how does that apple and orange juice taste, anyway?


On the other hand, I just don't think they're necessary. You can write all you want about physics, and TV programs you watched, but that's not going to change my opinion. My opinion is based on my knowledge and past experience, not yours.
Like I give shit about changing the opinion of someone who obviously lives a very sheltered life. You're right, what you think is your business and your opinion, but when your opinion could be taken seriously and get someone killed, then all your posts should have a "written by a buffoon" tagged onto the end so readers don't actually think you know what you're talking about. Your knowledge and your past experience can mean that you are lacking in that area and that you have been lucky to get by. Others may not have the same horseshoes shoved up their butts.

and you're an advocater of them
I'll play your game ................. What's "advocater"? :poosie:
WRONG, again. Just because I know how a winter tire works and the advantages of them, not once, did I "advocate" them. They serve their purpose for the vast majority of drivers. If I advocated them, I would be quite insistent that all cop cars use them and all taxi cabs use them and I'd be lobbying to make them law here as well. Sure, I believe that in time, they'll be law everywhere in Canada, but that still doesn't mean I advocate them. Please, Richard, note the first 3 letters of the word, "assumption". You really shouldn't be doing it. You don't do that well, either.

Oh, Richie, have I made any other spelling mistakes? Please feel free to point them out. As far as I can tell, that's about the only thing you know well. Humility is certainly not one of those things.

BTW, I won't be posting in this thread for a while now. It's the most I've posted here in a long time. I'll let Richard bask in the sunshine of his rebuttal skills and leave him unchallenged here. I'll wait till the next time he tries to kill someone again. ;)

[rc2002]

Originally posted by xviper
Nice come back, Richie! You can't fault me for my logic and reasoning, so all you can do is to get me on spelling. ATTABOY, Richie. Give the man a Chicklets. You win! Everyone cheer.

Must've been a pretty good comeback since you followed suit. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. And give me a Chicklets? You mean a Chicklet?




Keep checking, Mr. Chan. It's already happened down east. Wonder why? It's coming, big boy. Winter tires ARE mandatory in more and more provinces. And to compare collision coverage to winter tires? Give yourself another Chicklets. Just how does that apple and orange juice taste, anyway?

If you actually kept the idea in the context it was used, you'd see that I drew an analogy to collision coverage. They are the same only in the respect that they are both optional and a calculated risk.

When you say more and more provinces, you mean the one province of Quebec right? As of the time of my posting in this thread, winter tires are only mandatory in the one province of Quebec. Others provinces have expressed interest in legislating mandatory winter tires but have not followed through.

The city currently does a decent job of keeping the roads clear enough to not require winter tires. So until that day the legislation is passed here, I'll continue to drive on all-season tires.




Like I give shit about changing the opinion of someone who obviously lives a very sheltered life. You're right, what you think is your business and your opinion, but when your opinion could be taken seriously and get someone killed, then all your posts should have a "written by a buffoon" tagged onto the end so readers don't actually think you know what you're talking about. Your knowledge and your past experience can mean that you are lacking in that area and that you have been lucky to get by. Others may not have the same horseshoes shoved up their butts.

I'll play your game ................. What's "advocater"? :poosie:
WRONG, again. Just because I know how a winter tire works and the advantages of them, not once, did I "advocate" them. They serve their purpose for the vast majority of drivers. If I advocated them, I would be quite insistent that all cop cars use them and all taxi cabs use them and I'd be lobbying to make them law here as well. Sure, I believe that in time, they'll be law everywhere in Canada, but that still doesn't mean I advocate them. Please, Richard, note the first 3 letters of the word, "assumption". You really shouldn't be doing it. You don't do that well, either.

Advocate: to speak or write in favor of; support or urge by argument; recommend publicly.

All of your posts sound deceivingly like you're in favour of winter tires. If not, then you should really consider taking a writing course because you sure fooled me.




Oh, Richie, have I made any other spelling mistakes? Please feel free to point them out. As far as I can tell, that's about the only thing you know well. Humility is certainly not one of those things.

Huh? I'm not afraid to openly admit my faults. I've done stupid things in my youth behind the wheel. Those are the things that prompted me to write that I was a sub-average driver. You on the other hand, S2000 guru, seem to think you are the authority on everything you post about.




BTW, I won't be posting in this thread for a while now. It's the most I've posted here in a long time. I'll let Richard bask in the sunshine of his rebuttal skills and leave him unchallenged here. I'll wait till the next time he tries to kill someone again. ;)
On that fateful day I go on trial for attempted murder because of my post on all season tires, I will fall to the ground and curse myself for not being all-knowing and wise like xviper.

[max_boost]

Alright I think it's time that this thread is :closed:

Agree to disagree, whatever.

[Jenma]

goodyear assurance tripletred or michelin hydroedge... probably "best" of the all seasons

[kamakurakid]

Originally posted by richardchan2002


You've touched on the advantages of winter tires and you're an advocater of them. Congratulations.

On the other hand, I just don't think they're necessary. You can write all you want about physics, and TV programs you watched, but that's not going to change my opinion. My opinion is based on my knowledge and past experience, not yours.

Winter tires are a calculated risk. It's like collision insurance. Not everyone has it, and some people don't buy it because they don't feel it's necessary. That's their prerogative. Who are you to tell them otherwise?

You can try to steer this thread with your wordy posts, and but in the end people are still entitled to share their opinion. Welcome to a public forum.

I suspect you feel the same about condoms, seat belts, needle sharing and food health inspectors?

[kamakurakid]

Originally posted by alloroc


If he had a small warehouse with decent racks and if he charged a reasonable storage fee he would profit.

I think Bob does store tires, I was in the shop last week and he has them stored right behind the shop, all protected by a chain link fence. Just give Bob or Lorne $30, write your name on the tires and toss them over the fence. In the spring, swing by and collect.


:bullshit:

[rc2002]

Originally posted by kamakurakid
I suspect you feel the same about condoms, seat belts, needle sharing and food health inspectors?

What an ignorant stereotype. The things you listed aren't even similar issues.

By your same twisted logic, that means I can suspect that you keep all your money in your mattress at home which is in fact a bomb shelter.

:banghead:

[kamakurakid]

Originally posted by richardchan2002


What an ignorant stereotype. The things you listed aren't even similar issues.

By your same twisted logic, that means I can suspect that you keep all your money in your mattress at home which is in fact a bomb shelter.

:banghead:

They are all the same, based on proven science, just like with winter tires. Your opinion is based on being cheap and nothing to do with safety. What else can it be? Making the roads safer for you and everyone else, is this not important to you?

[Toms-SC]

Richard has made me rethink my stance. I would like to know the best Summer Performance Tires and Cheater Slicks available to handle the winter elements?

[rc2002]

I don't debate that they're proven by science, but you can't group things together like that. How can you assume that just because someone doesn't wear their seat belt, that they're automatically into needle sharing? You can't.

I'm all for making the roads safer. But I feel that driving more defensively in the winter time will make a bigger difference than slapping on a set of winter tires. If you take into account the equipment you have on your car and drive accordingly, winter tires just aren't necessary.

A lot of people take on that same view. Count the number of cars on the road with all seasons - they far outnumber the number with winters.

[Toms-SC]

Originally posted by richardchan2002


A lot of people take on that same view. Count the number of cars on the road with all seasons - they far outnumber the number with winters.

That is because people are uninformed and most of all cheap.

[kamakurakid]

Originally posted by richardchan2002
I don't debate that they're proven by science, but you can't group things together like that. How can you assume that just because someone doesn't wear their seat belt, that they're automatically into needle sharing? You can't.
I did not say or imply that, my point is an intelligent person would not argue the science behind these known topics. I could have tossed in daily brushing and flossing of teeth, exercise, good diet, not smoking.....the list is endless. But I thought the point was made.


Originally posted by richardchan2002
I'm all for making the roads safer. But I feel that driving more defensively in the winter time will make a bigger difference than slapping on a set of winter tires. If you take into account the equipment you have on your car and drive accordingly, winter tires just aren't necessary.
Really? So you trust the other drivers to be as proven on ice and snow? Defensive driving is very important, experience is very important, when you hit a patch of black ice where does defence come into play? The police all drive on winter tires (by choice), all of Quebec and the nordic countries drive on winter tires by law. Are these examples of poor drivers with simple minded folk behind the wheel?


Originally posted by richardchan2002
A lot of people take on that same view. Count the number of cars on the road with all seasons - they far outnumber the number with winters.
People are cheap and ignorant/stupid as a rule, by your example a popular action is the best action. McDonalds is the most popular fast food in the world, so by your argument it is the right place to dine daily. Everyone is doing it....therefore it must be the right thing to do.

So on the vast majority of vehicles in Sweden, Finland and Norway, all required by law to have winter tires; those not using winter tires are the fools? The majority have them, the minority do not. Therefore right and wrong is determined by popularity? Your actions are governed by popular choice? I would hate to have been on the "wrong" side of the process in historical cases of "ethnic cleansing".

[tirebob]

Originally posted by alloroc


If he had a small warehouse with decent racks and if he charged a reasonable storage fee he would profit.

I wish it were that easy... The cost of space and racking, some sort of system to track peoples goods, liabilities (you wouldn't believe how many people will try and pass off 9 inches of deep curb rash as something "we" must have done when stacking there mounted wheels and tires with cardboard bewteen every one...) etc... How much money would be "reasonable" to charge to store tires? I can't even store 800 tires that I am selling let alone another minimum 200+ sets (800+ tires) of customer tires. Even if I charged $20.00 per month (which most people would shit if I asked that much "just to store tires", I would be lucky to bring in a gross of $4000.00 per month before expenses, and the cost of warehouse space (you would be surprised how much space you would need to store 200 seperate sets of tires and mounted packages in a functional and effective manner), insurance, security, racking, liabilities, etc would not even come close to justifying the profit involved, let alone the headaches in managing such a system, especially if it is off site of the shop.

I speak with previous experience trying this with another company I use to work for years ago... It just turned into a giant shit show and wasn't worth the energy for what profit could be generated. Beyond members would be far better off just getting 10 or 15 guys together and renting a small storage place at U-haul or something and splitting the annual costs...

[kamakurakid]

Originally posted by richardchan2002
A lot of people take on that same view. Count the number of cars on the road with all seasons - they far outnumber the number with winters.
I cannot believe this winter tire/all season (AKA no season) tire debate goes on. Next we debate which ocean is the greater, Pacific vs. Atlantic. Feel free to chime in, a debate best left to others, for I am more of a river supporter.

Read this book, heck the library has a copy or twelve:

Extraordinary Popular Delusions & the Madness of Crowds by Charles McKay

Amazon has the paperback, at a deal compared to the hardcover:

http://www.amazon.ca/Extraordinary-Popular-Delusions-Madness-Crowds/dp/051788433X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229801999&sr=8-1 (http://)

His most famous quote:

"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one!"

[rc2002]

Originally posted by kamakurakid
I did not say or imply that, my point is an intelligent person would not argue the science behind these known topics. I could have tossed in daily brushing and flossing of teeth, exercise, good diet, not smoking.....the list is endless. But I thought the point was made.


I never said that I argued the science behind it. Instead I said just the opposite. My exact words were that I don't debate that they are proven by science.



Really? So you trust the other drivers to be as proven on ice and snow? Defensive driving is very important, experience is very important, when you hit a patch of black ice where does defence come into play? The police all drive on winter tires (by choice), all of Quebec and the nordic countries drive on winter tires by law. Are these examples of poor drivers with simple minded folk behind the wheel?


xviper had mentioned in a previous post that police actually drive on all seasons. It was mentioned in another thread that city buses drive on all seasons. Obviously, someone made the decision that they didn't require winter tires even though they see a lot more driving time than your average motorist in Calgary. That person likely did a cost benefit analysis and decided not to opt for winter tires. Some people might argue that it was a good decision, others might not. Both have the right to make their case to their city alderman.



People are cheap and ignorant/stupid as a rule, by your example a popular action is the best action. McDonalds is the most popular fast food in the world, so by your argument it is the right place to dine daily. Everyone is doing it....therefore it must be the right thing to do.

So on the vast majority of vehicles in Sweden, Finland and Norway, all required by law to have winter tires; those not using winter tires are the fools? The majority have them, the minority do not. Therefore right and wrong is determined by popularity? Your actions are governed by popular choice? I would hate to have been on the "wrong" side of the process in historical cases of "ethnic cleansing".

When did I say anything about right and wrong being determined by popularity? I was saying that many people drive on all season tires because they have already made their choice to use all season tires. You may be able to sway some of them in their decision making, but you won't be able to convince all of them. At the end of the day, winter tires are a calculated risk like I mentioned and some people choose not to use them and that's their right.

And comparing the choice to buy winter tires with that of ethnic cleansing? It's the same flawed logic as before. Just because someone is opposed to winter tires doesn't mean you can extrapolate their decision to be in favour of ethnic cleansing. It's just not a reasonable inference.

I don't see the need to use extreme references like attempted murder and ethnic cleansing, in a thread about tires. Obviously there are some who are very passionate about tires.

I think cases on both sides of the issue have been made here. It's only pointless bickering now.

[tirebob]

Actually, many police cars use winter tires. Not all, but many...

Those that don't use winters are not usually because all seasons are considered adaquete for winter traction, but more because winter tires are not speed rated or stable enough to be acceptable for the rigors of high speed pursuit.

At least that is how it was explained to me by the detachment for whom we used to change their winter tires when I was changing tires in BC.

As for city buses... You can't really get a winter tire as we know them for cars. They just have more of a lug type pattern which really doesn't do anything on ice, and city buses don't usually drive in deep snow so changing those tires to a lug pattern would not be overly beneficial. You can't use a soft compound with dense siping on such a heavy vehicle or they would rip right off in a heart beat...

[max_boost]

Originally posted by richardchan2002


Count the number of cars on the road with all seasons - they far outnumber the number with winters.

Count the number of cars on the road with all seasons who are involved in accidents - they far outnumber the number with winters. :devil:

[max_boost]

Originally posted by richardchan2002


I'm all for making the roads safer. But I feel that driving more defensively in the winter time will make a bigger difference than slapping on a set of winter tires. If you take into account the equipment you have on your car and drive accordingly, winter tires just aren't necessary.



While that is true, however we are human and it only takes one lapse in judgment whether you are tired, stressed etc. and you are toast. Winter tires, along with stability control, ABS etc. provide a buffer for your average driver to help reduce the potential for an accident.

i.e. Today I was driving SB on Macleod approaching the 45th AVE intersection which clearly displays a no left turn sign but some dude decides he wants to turn anyway. I'm the 5th or 6th car back and all of a sudden everyone slams on their brakes; I do as well. Now, with all seasons, I probably would have rear ended the guy but with my pimp Michelin PA2 winter tires, I stopped a lot quicker than I thought I would. The Jeep behind me had to pull his wheel to the right or else he would have hit me. I'm almost 99% positive that the Jeep did not have winters haha

[xviper]

Originally posted by tirebob
[B]Actually, many police cars use winter tires. Not all, but many...

Those that don't use winters are not usually because all seasons are considered adaquete for winter traction, but more because winter tires are not speed rated or stable enough to be acceptable for the rigors of high speed pursuit.

At least that is how it was explained to me by the detachment for whom we used to change their winter tires when I was changing tires in BC.
Here, in Calgary, our police service do not use dedicated winter tires. Here is a quote from a friend of mine in CPS:


As for the cruisers, they are all equipped with all-seasons; Crown Vics, SUVs and Vans alike. While there are a few variations for the SUVs/Vans, most of the Explorers use BF Goodrich Rugged Trail T/As. Good tires for our weather conditions, but they are soft and puncture far too frequently (in my opinion). The cars all use Goodyear RSAs, in a 17" size. The RSAs are not a bad tire but get very hard in this cold weather. They work best when they are warm and pliable, and seem to hold up to abuse quite well i.e mild off-pavement driving, curb jumping etc.

Like I said before, Police, Fire and EMS are all trained professional drivers and we drive each shift from beginning to end and police are in their vehicles for up to 12 hours at a time. Weather doesn't stop us from going out. These are not your typical soccer moms in their all seasons equipped cars.