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broken_legs
12-14-2008, 09:04 AM
Pretty Eye Opening!

Keeping my powder dry!




How high-risk mortgages crept north
JACQUIE McNISH AND GREG McARTHUR
23:54 EST Friday, Dec 12, 2008

In the first half of this year, as the subprime mortgage crisis was exploding in the United States, a contagion of U.S.-style lending practices quietly crossed the border and infected Canada's previously prudent mortgage regime.


New mortgage borrowers signed up for an estimated $56-billion of risky 40-year mortgages, more than half of the total new mortgages approved by banks, trust companies and other lenders during that time, according to banking and insurance sources. Those sources estimated that 10 per cent of the mortgages, worth about $10-billion, were taken out with no money down.

The mushrooming of a Canadian version of subprime mortgages has gone largely unnoticed. The Conservative government finally banned the practice last summer, after repeated warnings from frustrated senior officials and bankers that the country's financial system was being exposed to far too much risk as the housing market weakened.

Just yesterday, Finance Minister Jim Flaherty repeated the mantra that the government acted early to get rid of risky mortgages. What he and Prime Minister Stephen Harper do not explain, however, is that the expansion of zero-down, 40-year mortgages began with measures contained in the first Conservative budget in May of 2006.

At the time, Mr. Flaherty announced that the government was opening up the market to more private insurers.

�These changes will result in greater choice and innovation in the market for mortgage insurance, benefiting consumers and promoting home ownership,� Mr. Flaherty said.

The new rules encouraged the entry of such U.S. players as American International Group � the world's largest insurance company � and Triad Guarantee Inc. of Winston-Salem, N.C. Former Triad chief executive officer Mark Tonnesen, who spearheaded his company's aborted push into Canada, said the proliferation of high-risk mortgages could have been mitigated if Ottawa had been more watchful.

�There was a lack of regulation around the expansion of increased risk,� he said.

Virtually unavailable in Canada two years ago, high-risk mortgages proliferated in 2007 and early 2008 and must now be shouldered by thousands of consumers at a time when the economy is sinking quickly and real-estate prices are swooning. Long-term mortgages � designed to help newcomers get into the housing market sooner � are the most expensive in terms of interest costs, and least flexible when mortgage-holders cannot meet their payments and need extensions.

The Bank of Canada this week warned that the perilous economy could lead to a doubling of so-called �vulnerable households� � those unable to meet their debts � and perhaps cost thousands of Canadians their homes. The central bank, which is always cautious with its words, said in a report that there is the potential for �a substantial increase in default rates on household debt.�

The federal government waited until June of this year to slam the regulatory door on 40-year mortgages. In October, as the global financial crisis erupted, Mr. Harper lauded his government for its �early� response to the mortgage dangers.

�In the U.S., they are still responding to the fallout of the subprime mortgage mess. In Canada, we acted early over the past year,� Mr. Harper said in a speech to the Empire Club in Toronto.

He didn't say that, not only did his own government open the sheltered Canadian mortgage market to U.S. insurers, but it also doubled to $200-billion the pool of federal money it would commit to guarantee their business. The foreigners unleashed what one U.S. insurance executive described as a fierce �dogfight for market share� that prompted rivals, including the giant federal agency Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, to aggressively push such risky U.S.-style lending.

An investigation by The Globe and Mail found:

� AIG's Greensboro, N.C., mortgage subsidiary launched a quiet lobbying campaign in 2004 with senior U.S. executives and a former CMHC official to push open the doors to Canada's mortgage insurance market, where some of the world's highest insurance rates are charged. Two years later, on May 1, 2006, AIG's mortgage insurance division registered with the lobbying commissioner's office. It was the day before the federal budget revealed new players would be allowed into Canada.

� Banking and insurance officials were so concerned about the alarming rush to 40-year mortgages at the beginning of 2008 that one bank executive warned the Bank of Canada's chief financial stability officer, Mark Zelmer, in a meeting that �the government has got to put an end to this.�

� Critics, including former Bank of Canada governor David Dodge, say the lax mortgage policies only further stoked soaring house prices. As for mortgage insurance premiums, industry officials say rates remain virtually unchanged and could potentially rise as troubled U.S. players begin to retreat from Canada.

The story of how the U.S. housing crisis spread to Canada is a tale of carefully orchestrated U.S. corporate lobbying, failed public-policy promises and government inaction to numerous private and public warnings about reckless mortgage practices.

Few of these consequences appear to have been anticipated by either the government or the financial institutions pushing high-risk mortgages on the public.

�Quite honestly I was surprised [the 40-year mortgage] was seized upon so eagerly by the Canadian banks and borrowers,� said a U.S. insurance executive who asked not to be named. �You hear all the usual excuses: �It's a cash-flow management tool, people will pay off their mortgage ahead of time.' But in reality it just becomes a mechanism for borrowing more than you probably should have.�

A FOOT IN THE DOOR

How did the staid world of mortgage insurance become the cradle of so much financial risk in the Canadian housing sector? It started almost by accident.

For nearly 40 years after CMHC was founded in 1954, the business of mortgage insurance was about as exciting as an actuarial table. The agency was set up by the federal government as a kind of financial cushion to encourage the country's conservative financial institutions to open their vaults and lend more money to homeowners.

If a home buyer couldn't pony up a 25-per-cent down payment on a house purchase, CMHC shouldered the risk of default by insuring the mortgage and charging the buyer an insurance premium. Backing CMHC's insurance policies was a 100-per-cent federal guarantee. In bad years, Ottawa piped money into CMHC; in good years, the agency added to the federal treasury by paying taxes.

The smooth working system hit a pothole in late 1988 when Canada's only other mortgage insurer at the time, Toronto-based MICC, was nearly wiped out by new international bank capital rules. The rules threatened to shutter MICC because they effectively made it cheaper for banks to use CMHC's government-guaranteed mortgage insurance.

Faced with the imminent collapse of Canada's only private-sector mortgage insurer, the then Conservative government went to a place that few other industrialized countries have gone by agreeing to guarantee the policies of a non-government mortgage insurer. According to people involved in the crisis, Ottawa �hesitantly� agreed to �taking on an enormous liability� of guaranteeing 90 per cent of MICC's insurance policies.

The government's worst fears about a massive liability materialized in 1995, when MICC's risky insurance bets in the construction sector threatened to torpedo the company. As Ottawa wrestled with the grim prospect of losing the insurer for millions of dollars in mortgages, the world's largest non-bank financial company came knocking with a rescue proposal.

The company was General Electric. The U.S. conglomerate was offering to take over MICC's mortgage insurance portfolio provided Ottawa met one condition: It would bless GE's planned new Canadian mortgage insurance subsidiary with a federal guarantee.

�It was a bit of a slam dunk,� recalls one former Ottawa official. �GE was one of the strongest companies in the world.�

Ottawa agreed to GE's offer, thereby shifting the federal government's 90-per- cent guarantee from a small Canadian mortgage insurer to a unit of a global giant with aggressive Canadian ambitions. GE's mortgage subsidiary, later spun off and renamed Genworth Mortgage Insurance Co., rapidly carved out a major presence in Canada, capturing about 30 per cent of the market and reporting $205-million of profits in 2005.

Other U.S. insurers took notice.

THE DOOR WIDENS

The days of a CMHC-Genworth duopoly were numbered. In the fall of 2005, a tiny paragraph buried in a 280-page federal government estimate of expenditures signalled a new era of competition in the industry.

The Finance Department's provision was considered so insignificant at the time that many staffers of the minister, Liberal MP Ralph Goodale, didn't recall it when contacted by The Globe. A current spokesman for the Saskatchewan MP insisted that the provision was not designed to open the market to riskier products.

Another federal official who declined to be identified said the wording of the provision was eased because Genworth's name had changed and the government wanted to leave room for additional switches.

Despite these explanations, executives and advisers to a number of U.S. insurers and Canadian players said the paragraph was widely interpreted as a signal that Ottawa was opening the country's mortgage insurance sector to outside competitors.

Intended or not, the shift followed years of mobilizing by U.S. insurance companies, all hungry for a piece of what is regarded as one of the most lucrative and the second-largest mortgage insurance market in the world. At the forefront of this movement was mammoth AIG, now in near ruins as a result of its role in the U.S. subprime crisis.

U.S. competitors had envied premium rates on Canadian mortgage insurance policies for years. With only two players competing in the space, Triad's Mr. Tonnesen said CMHC and Genworth were so profitable that they were �basically printing money.�

Eyeing the rich northern market, representatives from at least three U.S. insurers made regular trips to Ottawa for meetings with the Finance Department and Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions, the insurance regulator. But AIG created a strategic advantage by hiring Bill Mulvihill, a Canadian mortgage expert who had spent years as the chief financial officer at CMHC. Mr. Mulvihill, who is still a director of AIG's Canadian operation, declined to comment.

�The difference that Bill Mulvihill made was that he was able to connect into the policy folks with OSFI and at Finance and convince them that we were for real,� said a former AIG executive who asked not to be identified. Following in AIG's footsteps were such U.S. insurers as PMI Group Inc., Triad and the Milwaukee-based Mortgage Guaranty Insurance Company.

Ultimately, Parliament did not vote on the Finance Department's proposal, thanks to the 2006 federal election and the Conservatives' rise to office. But the U.S. insurers' efforts weren't for naught; the new Harper government quickly embraced the idea of them coming north.

On May 2, 2006, in his first budget, Mr. Flaherty announced that not only would Ottawa guarantee the business of U.S. insurers, it was doubling the guarantee to $200-billion.

Twenty-four hours before Mr. Flaherty's announcement, AIG's mortgage subsidiary first registered with Canada's lobbyist commissioner, according to a federal registry. At the time, companies who spent more than 20 per cent of their time lobbying the government for changes in policy were required, by law, to register. It is not known how much time AIG spent promoting its cause to the government.

In a statement, AIG's Canadian chief executive officer, Andy Charles, said the company began a �preliminary investigation� of Canadian opportunities years ago. He said the company �did not engage in discussions with elected officials until we became aware that our market entry was being debated.� Until that point, he said, the companies' �interactions were with the Department of Finance and Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions.�

The lobbyist AIG hired was John Capobianco, a former aide to various MPPs in the Ontario government of Mike Harris and a defeated candidate for the federal Tories in the 2006 election.

Mr. Capobianco said in an interview he wasn't familiar with any of AIG's negotiations with the federal government before he was retained in May. He was brought aboard to promote AIG's argument that more competition was good for consumers and massage the proposed policy through the finance committees of the House of Commons and Senate.

By the time he was hired, Mr. Capobianco said, �the rubber was on the road.�

LENDERS STEP THROUGH

Although new U.S. insurers didn't generate any press coverage or public concern from the opposition parties, there was at least one lawmaker who had misgivings.

Garth Turner, the former financial journalist turned politician who has bounced between the Conservative and Liberal parties, urged the finance committee to hold a day of hearings on the new U.S. insurers. He was a Conservative MP at the time, but was wary of his party's proposal.

�We had a fairly stable market at a time when the American market was already starting to go to hell,� Mr. Turner said in an interview. �I was quite concerned that mucking around with our mortgage fundamentals would have the potential for chaos.�

During a day of hearings, executives from the new U.S. insurers all pledged to make home ownership more affordable for people on the cusp of being approved by a traditional lender. AIG's new Canadian mortgage insurance chief, Mr. Charles, promised to service the neediest � immigrants, the self-employed and those with blemishes on their credit scores � who were mostly ignored by CMHC and Genworth.

Peter Vukanovich, Genworth's Canadian chief, fought to protect his profitable turf during the hearings and warned the government that it hadn't conducted any studies about the threat of disruption posed by new competitors.

Shortly after the hearing, Mr. Turner said he was approached by Mr. Flaherty's parliamentary secretary, Diane Ablonczy, in the House of Commons. �She came to my desk where I was computing away on my laptop,� Mr. Turner said, recalling that she told him to �get onside.�

In the end, no one raised a single question about the prospect of 40-year or zero-down mortgages. The bill sailed through the committee � including a vote of support from Mr. Turner.

�At the end of the day I sadly acquiesced,� he said, adding that he regrets voting the way he did. �At the time it was politically difficult.�

(He has since written and published a book, The Greater Fool, predicting a Canadian real-estate market crash similar to the one in the United States.) The provision later passed through the Senate committee, but not without one ominous exchange.

Senator Terry Stratton, a Conservative, had a prophetic inquiry about the potential that AIG might engage �higher risk� mortgage insurance practices, �thereby increasing the potential for forfeiture, which would place an additional burden on the federal government.�

Mr. Charles, AIG's top executive in Canada, waved off the concerns. �In terms of exposure to the government, the practical likelihood of AIG, an organization with $800-billion in assets, ever coming to the government for anything as it relates to a claim is not nil, but it is as close to nil as it possibly could be.�

Two years later, Washington has had to pump $150-billion into AIG after its business was shattered by reckless financial gambles.

A STEP TOO FAR

In February, 2006, as AIG was still trying to establish itself in Canada, CMHC moved to protect its coveted spot and announced a pilot project to insure 30-year mortgages.

For the industry, it was a declaration of war.

Two weeks later, Genworth announced it would do the Crown corporation one better, saying it would insure 35-year mortgages. CMHC matched that with its own 35-year product and raised the stakes by announcing it would insure interest-only loans that effectively required no down payment. The aggressive new mortgage products alarmed Mr. Dodge, the Bank of Canada governor, who scolded the president of CMHC, Karen Kinsley, in a letter for �very unhelpful� mortgages that he said would inflate prices and ultimately make homes less affordable.

In October, Genworth struck again, announcing Canada's first 40-year mortgage insurance policy. AIG and CMHC later added their own 40-year insurance products.

Industry officials repeatedly said in interviews that they were shocked at the frenzied escalation of risk. �It was fast and furious,� said one AIG executive.

Mr. Vukanovich, the head of Genworth, declined repeated interview requests. In a statement, Genworth said it introduced 40-year mortgage insurance policies �as a continuation of global lending practices and trends at that time.� The company added the policies were �prudently underwritten and not used to bring unqualified borrowers into the housing market.�

In an interview yesterday, CMHC vice-president Pierre Serr� repeatedly pointed to the behaviour of his competitors when asked about the agency's riskier products, explaining that CMHC's rivals were the first to introduce the 40-year products.

Asked if he thought that the new U.S. insurers pushed CMHC into riskier policies, Mr. Serr� paused. �It' s a tough one for me to answer. In retrospect you can look at all the individual things happening and you can link them together, but it's a hard one to tell.�

�We think we've done a prudent job of introducing these products and managing these products,� he added, declining to explain how many 40-year and zero-down mortgages the public agency now has on its books. Unlike in the United States, such figures are not made publicly available in Canada.

Two-and-a-half years after Ottawa launched its mortgage insurance initiative, the promise of increased competition has all but died. Three of the entrants, PMI, Triad and Mortgage Guaranty Insurance Co., have retreated. Genworth and AIG are still operating, but, as financial woes mount for their U.S. parents, their future in Canada remains uncertain. Industry sources said most banks have become so cautious in the wake of global financial crisis that they have sharply reduced their use of private insurance in Canada.

The retreat by international insurers means that CMHC's dominant grip on the mortgage insurance market is expanding again, possibly beyond the 70-per-cent market share it enjoyed prior to the arrival of the bigger U.S. competitors.

An adviser to one of the U.S. insurers, who declined to be identified, summed it up this way: �It's a failed experiment.�



*********************************

*************EDIT: Added new article.



Warnings about risky mortgages ignored
JACQUIE McNISH AND GREG McARTHUR
02:00 EST Thursday, Dec 18, 2008

Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp. officials ignored warnings from senior Finance Department and Bank of Canada officials during the past two years that its active business in high-risk mortgage insurance could overburden consumers.

According to sources familiar with the discussions, CMHC executives did not heed the warnings and continued to underwrite larger volumes of insurance policies for risky home loans with 40-year amortizations and minimal down payments.

The sources said the federal agency's executives disagreed about the potential risks and defended the creditworthiness of borrowers who were granted insurance for the riskier mortgage products.

One senior Ottawa official said CMHC was such a significant underwriter of 40-year mortgage insurance polices that it currently accounts for two-thirds of the nearly $56-billion of 40-year mortgages that were approved by banks, trust companies, credit unions and other lenders during the first six months of 2008.

Unlike the United States, Canada does not publicly release data about different classes of mortgage debt. CMHC does track mortgage data, but its officials have declined requests by The Globe and Mail for information about the volume of 40-year and low-down-payment mortgages.

In a statement issued last night, CMHC said it discussed mortgage risks with central bank officials in 2006 after former bank governor David Dodge raised concerns about the new breed of long-term home loans.

“CMHC officials took the governor and senior bank officials through the materials and discussed how the product was administered. The Bank of Canada was reassured by the fact that CMHC's product includes no change in mortgage qualification criteria and as such would not be of significant concern to the Bank. We know of no other concerns that the Bank of Canada or the Department of Finance had with our activities that in their view would threaten financial stability,” the statement said.

The agency said only a “relatively small” proportion of the $334-billion in mortgages it insures are either 40-year or zero-down-payment mortgages. A spokeswoman declined to put a figure to “relatively small.”

Finance Minister Jim Flaherty announced in July that the federal government was cancelling its policy of guaranteeing 40-year mortgages as of Oct. 15 in order to shield Canada from the kind of housing crash that has devastated the U.S. economy. However, according to sources, bank executives had been warning Mr. Flaherty and central bank officials since the beginning of 2008 about a dramatic and unexpected increase in demand from consumers for 40-year mortgages with small down payments.

Lenders, insurers and government officials interviewed by The Globe characterized the first half of 2008 as a period of apparent paralysis by federal decision makers. These sources said bank and insurance executives and finance officials disagreed over how to pull the plug on popular and risky mortgage products. One of the few things they did agree about, according to sources, was that there was insufficient monitoring of CMHC, which accounts for about 70 per cent of the total value of mortgage insurance underwritten in Canada.

“There is an accountability issue at CMHC,” said one senior Ottawa official, who declined to be identified.

CMHC is a federal agency that has been supplying mortgage insurance since 1954, and is currently overseen by Human Resources and Social Development Canada.

In response to a question about its accountability, CMHC said in its statement: “The lines of accountability are very clear, like all Crown corporations CMHC is accountable to Parliament through its minister.”

When The Globe contacted Human Resources Minister Diane Finley, her spokeswoman replied: “We will have to decline and allow CMHC to respond to the questions applicable.”

According to people familiar with CMHC, the agency imported U.S.-style mortgage products to protect its dominant market position from large U.S. insurers who were allowed into the Canadian market in 2006. Canadian laws require borrowers with less than a 20-per-cent down payment to obtain insurance for their mortgages.

“They felt they were pushed into to this because of the new competition,” said a person familiar with CMHC.

Underlying these concerns, sources said, was a federal internal study launched by the new Conservative government in 2006 to review the possible privatization of a number of agencies, including CMHC. The prospect of privatization, one source said, fuelled concerns that the agency needed to be seen as an effective competitor.

CMHC said in its statement that its decision to insure longer-term and lower-down-payment loans in 2006 “reflected the market trends for the period.” Until 2006, the agency and its only rival, Genworth Financial Inc., did not insure mortgages that were amortized beyond 25 years. In February of 2006, several months before four U.S. insurance giants were allowed into Canada, CMHC introduced the country's first 30-year mortgage insurance product. What followed was a ferocious battle for market share between CMHC, Genworth and American International Group, the first of the new insurance entrants.

rc2002
12-14-2008, 12:15 PM
That's a good read. It's one of the reasons why the US was forced to bailout AIG - because the international effects would be far reaching.

I predict a Canadian bailout for private insurers within a year. Get ready for your tax dollars to line the pockets of greedy speculators!

Antonito
12-14-2008, 12:21 PM
It's going to be a delicate balancing act for the next couple of years I think. And by balancing act I mean like on a tightrope, because going either way means going down :(


Also


Triad Guarantee Inc

Really? Someone thought this was a good name? :rofl:

Mckenzie
12-15-2008, 11:53 PM
Great article- I'm glad to see that the insanity did come to an end before complete meltdown, but only time will tell I guess.

bignerd
12-16-2008, 12:48 AM
Meh, mostly fear mongering if you ask me.

barmanjay
12-16-2008, 01:00 AM
it is the past,.. hindsight is 20/20

broken_legs
12-16-2008, 02:23 AM
Originally posted by bignerd
Meh, mostly fear mongering if you ask me.


Did you even read the article?

It's not mostly fear mongering, it's mostly a timetable of the events leading up to and after the introduction of Subprime mortgages in Canada.

Where is the fear mongering?

bashir26
12-16-2008, 11:20 AM
Good article. Thanks for posting.

urban.one
12-16-2008, 11:49 AM
1) The article comes from the Globe and Mail which is a leftwing newspaper that does not try to hide its anti-Conservative bias.

2) Wheres the statistics showing the default rate on mortgages over the past 10 years right up until today so that we can see what is actually happening? Great article yet this one piece of evidence is missing.

Xtrema
12-16-2008, 01:18 PM
Awesome article. So once again, this really call into question of insurance companies and regulation surrounding them.

They all want to be in when there's money to be made but want taxpayer payout when they go under.

Fuck it. We should abolish all insurance. Why can't the people at fault take 100% of the blame and pay for it? Why do everyone have to pay for someone's mistake?

We should tighten up mortgage practices some more. Why stop at 35? We should never have more than 20 year mortgages. And mortgage approval should be tied to your tax returns where your mortgage payment can never exceed 60% of your take home income.

Mckenzie
12-16-2008, 05:16 PM
There is nothing fear-mongering about this article. Although these practices are in the past, the article details the pitfalls of allowing to little regulation in huge sectors like this (ie. American style free-market capitalism).

They knock down the door to get in and make money in this market yet want their failures socialized and paid for by taxpayers when they take too much risk in an unregulated marketplace.

Its nice- they dont share the profit with taxpayers, but they sure wont stop you from sharing the loss. :banghead: :rolleyes:

tsi_neal
12-16-2008, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by Xtrema
We should tighten up mortgage practices some more. Why stop at 35? We should never have more than 20 year mortgages. And mortgage approval should be tied to your tax returns where your mortgage payment can never exceed 60% of your take home income.

And while were at it we may as well make the lowest rates prime +5% to ensure noone but the wealthy can reasonably afford a home, that will surely avoid any chance of a meltdown. :facepalm:

Fact is that there is a large amount of the population that is good for the money but needs a lengthy mortgage to do so. Cant dispute that standards need to be high to get a mortgage but there has to be some flexibility as not everyone has the ability to put out the type of cash required to get a short term mortgage.

Mckenzie
12-16-2008, 05:42 PM
^To put it in perspective, many of the mortgages for properties in Europe are 50 yrs plus due to the insane cost there. Most people inherit their parents' mortgage and the house, not just a house.

Xtrema
12-16-2008, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by tsi_neal


And while were at it we may as well make the lowest rates prime +5% to ensure noone but the wealthy can reasonably afford a home, that will surely avoid any chance of a meltdown. :facepalm:

Fact is that there is a large amount of the population that is good for the money but needs a lengthy mortgage to do so. Cant dispute that standards need to be high to get a mortgage but there has to be some flexibility as not everyone has the ability to put out the type of cash required to get a short term mortgage.

$400K home, 5% down, $380K mortgage, 20 yr amort, 5 year 5% fixed

Monthly payment is $2497.08.

If that's 60% of income, the monthly income post tax is $4161.80 or around $72K/yr pre-tax.

A $72K/yr pre-tax for a family is middle to low-middle class affording an average home in Calgary. You think I just pull the numbers out of my ass?

Let's do another for the poor people.

$250K condo, same as above terms

Monthly payment is $1480. Using my formula, it will be approved @ $40K/yr before tax.

Even the poor can afford it.

This way, ONLY TAX PAYERS are allowed to get a mortage with taxpayer backed CMHC. We'll just have to ensure people live within their means.

Lowering amortization and upping the down payment will get rid of a lot of risky loans. Again if you are relying on any amortization over 20 years and low down payment in THIS market, you should NOT be home owners.

Antonito
12-16-2008, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by Xtrema


Fuck it. We should abolish all insurance. Why can't the people at fault take 100% of the blame and pay for it? Why do everyone have to pay for someone's mistake?


Because they wouldn't pay for it, even if they really really wanted to



Originally posted by Xtrema



Monthly payment is $1480. Using my formula, it will be approved @ $40K/yr before tax.

Even the poor can afford it.


Good old Calgary, where even the poor make 40k a year


:nut: :rofl:

HiTempguy1
12-16-2008, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by Antonito


Good old Calgary, where even the poor make 40k a year

:nut: :rofl:

$20/h before tax from my calculations, working 8 hours a day monday through friday for the whole year. If you aren't earning over $20/h, you really shouldn't be able to afford a home anyways (that is what rent is for). Basically anything you get certified for (so any apprentice trade for instance) earns close to $20/h starting 1st year (or it DID until now lol). AND also consider that if you have a home to yourself, hopefully you have a S.O that is helping out.

I'm just throwin' out the idea that his numbers seem fairly solid to me :dunno: If you don't have a S.O, have a buddy rent a room, etc etc. Basically the people who work their asses off are going to be able to afford houses/condos/whatever on that sort of program, while all the lazy slackers will rent. PERFECT!

Antonito
12-16-2008, 08:10 PM
I have nothing against his numbers, just saying, 40k a year is not considered "poor" anywhere but here, it always makes me chuckle.

broken_legs
12-16-2008, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by tsi_neal


And while were at it we may as well make the lowest rates prime +5% to ensure noone but the wealthy can reasonably afford a home, that will surely avoid any chance of a meltdown. :facepalm:


Good Idea. Thats still a pretty low rate historically.


Originally posted by tsi_neal

Fact is that there is a large amount of the population that is good for the money but needs a lengthy mortgage to do so.


So basically what you're saying is there is a large portion of the population that isn't good for the money. If they were good for the money they wouldn't really need anything would they?


Originally posted by tsi_neal

Cant dispute that standards need to be high to get a mortgage but there has to be some flexibility as not everyone has the ability to put out the type of cash required to get a short term mortgage.

25 years is a "short term" mortgage? lol


:facepalm:

Xtrema
12-16-2008, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by Antonito

Good old Calgary, where even the poor make 40k a year


:nut: :rofl:

Before you laugh, consider that you don't necessary support a house with a single income. Most families these days are dual income.

And if you're typical Asian FOB family, it's probably quad or more income/household.


Originally posted by Antonito
Because they wouldn't pay for it, even if they really really wanted to


I can understand auto insurance in case of injuries and deaths. And to a smaller extend, property damages.

But in the model of CMHC is idiotic. Why don't the government sponsor an insurance program so that I can buy a BMW instead of a Civic. I swear I'm good for it.

There should be a rule where if you need CMHC help, the house must be valued at below average for the area in the 50km radius. This will curb abuses for people who use the insurance for upgrades instead of affordable housing.

Admit it, in the last 4-5 years, 10% of house price is wasted in builder "upgrades" that doesn't appreciate much in value. And I'm sure a good portion of CMHC backed asset benefits all these builders.

HiTempguy1
12-16-2008, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by Antonito
I have nothing against his numbers, just saying, 40k a year is not considered "poor" anywhere but here, it always makes me chuckle.

Just making sure ;) I think its all perspective mostly, but I think that is also changing. Where in Canada can you buy a cheap house anymore AND afford to live below $40K a year? Way out east (I'm talking Nova Scotia and New Brunswick)? There you get a job for $8/h (if there is a job to be had). I also see the humor in it, but mabye the times are a changin' and it won't be so funny when nobody can afford a home :(

tsi_neal
12-16-2008, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by Xtrema


$400K home, 5% down, $380K mortgage, 20 yr amort, 5 year 5% fixed

Monthly payment is $2497.08.

If that's 60% of income, the monthly income post tax is $4161.80 or around $72K/yr pre-tax.

A $72K/yr pre-tax for a family is middle to low-middle class affording an average home in Calgary. You think I just pull the numbers out of my ass?

Let's do another for the poor people.

$250K condo, same as above terms

Monthly payment is $1480. Using my formula, it will be approved @ $40K/yr before tax.

Even the poor can afford it.

This way, ONLY TAX PAYERS are allowed to get a mortage with taxpayer backed CMHC. We'll just have to ensure people live within their means.

Lowering amortization and upping the down payment will get rid of a lot of risky loans. Again if you are relying on any amortization over 20 years and low down payment in THIS market, you should NOT be home owners.


As sound as those numbers look; lets round a bit, 4100 in pocket, less 2400 mortgage, less 450 utilities, less 400 food, less 250 insurance, less 250 automotive expenses, assuming the car is owned outright. That leaves 350/mo for ALL extras, including clothes, medical, etc. That 350 is gone before you even had it and im betting most people/couples/families are going to rack up significant debt fairly quickly.

Turn that 20 year mortgage into a 30 year and it will put about 500/mo extra in your pocket, at a total cost of $110,000. IMO if you can hold a steady job pulling in 72k/yr and have good credit history your "good for the money" over the long term. Also IMO i feel that the extra 500/mo will provide some security because if managed properly each month will net a little bit of savings.

Option number 2, many investors have historically been able to get larger returns on their money than the money lost in intrest in the mortgage. In these cases a longer term mortgage is a win win, It gives extra investment cash to the home owner. He/she is happy with more return and the banks are happy with more intrest.

My only point is a longer term mortgage isnt really the risk, its when people are able to get mortgages that they really shouldnt be in because of the longer term.

FWIW i feel that spending 60% of your take home on the mortgage is way to high and will get many into trouble. 50% is probably much more reasonable for the average person.


Originally posted by broken_legs


Good Idea. Thats still a pretty low rate historically.



If your tied to a mortgage that is going to cost you more in intrest than you can reasonably expect to make in intrest if you invested the same money it isnt a mortgage worth having and will only benifit the lenders, hence a bad idea.

sub prime is great for the consumer, and risky for everyone else. Im not suggesting that sub prime is a good option for anything but the most secure of borrower, which likely has assest of greater value than the mortgage anyways. I do feel it still has its place.


Originally posted by broken_legs

So basically what you're saying is there is a large portion of the population that isn't good for the money. If they were good for the money they wouldn't really need anything would they?



Nope see above, I personally feel that someone starting out, with no student loans, in a trade or as a professional should reasonably be able to afford a home and maintain a reasonable quality of life. giving 60% of your take home doesnt leave much for a quality of life. By extending the loan by 10 years quality of life goes up and the lender is at no more risk.

Giving someone who brings home 2500/mo a 35 year sub prime mortgage @ $1500/mo is risky. Giving someone who brings home 5000 a month the exact same mortgage (provided stable employment) is not risky


Originally posted by broken_legs

25 years is a "short term" mortgage? lol


:facepalm:

Never said or implied that 25 years is a short term mortgage. It was suggested that 20 years should be the max mortgage and anything less that 20 is on the shorter side of average.

Xtrema
12-16-2008, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by tsi_neal
Turn that 20 year mortgage into a 30 year and it will put about 500/mo extra in your pocket, at a total cost of $110,000. IMO if you can hold a steady job pulling in 72k/yr and have good credit history your "good for the money" over the long term. Also IMO i feel that the extra 500/mo will provide some security because if managed properly each month will net a little bit of savings.

Then how about not getting a $380K mortgage and a $300K mortgage instead which will buy you the extra $500.

The 60% limit I set is a bit high. It should be more like 50%. Or a ratio should set for cost of living and mortgage payment cannot exceed that and your T4 should cover both before approval.



Option number 2, many investors have historically been able to get larger returns on their money than the money lost in intrest in the mortgage. In these cases a longer term mortgage is a win win, It gives extra investment cash to the home owner. He/she is happy with more return and the banks are happy with more intrest.

My only point is a longer term mortgage isnt really the risk, its when people are able to get mortgages that they really shouldnt be in because of the longer term.

FWIW i feel that spending 60% of your take home on the mortgage is way to high and will get many into trouble. 50% is probably much more reasonable for the average person.

If your tied to a mortgage that is going to cost you more in intrest than you can reasonably expect to make in intrest if you invested the same money it isnt a mortgage worth having and will only benifit the lenders, hence a bad idea.

That the line people used to sell you on properties. It will only worth more. But that's also a risk. How many towns comes and goes in history? Will Calgary even exist if the world can quit the oil based economy? What that last year should have taught us is that ANYTHING can happen.



sub prime is great for the consumer, and risky for everyone else. Im not suggesting that sub prime is a good option for anything but the most secure of borrower, which likely has assest of greater value than the mortgage anyways. I do feel it still has its place.

No it does not. If you are financially sound, you don't need sub-prime. Sub-prime created a bunch of flippers who can't really afford properties beside their own. When the market fails, they take everyone down with them.



Nope see above, I personally feel that someone starting out, with no student loans, in a trade or as a professional should reasonably be able to afford a home and maintain a reasonable quality of life. giving 60% of your take home doesnt leave much for a quality of life. By extending the loan by 10 years quality of life goes up and the lender is at no more risk.

Again, that last year has proved that our thinking of forever inflation is flawed. I'm not suggesting you can't have quality of life but if you are a responsible home owner, other part of your life will have to take a back seat until you make more $.



Giving someone who brings home 2500/mo a 35 year sub prime mortgage @ $1500/mo is risky. Giving someone who brings home 5000 a month the exact same mortgage (provided stable employment) is not risky

Stable employment for 35 year is key which may fly if you started out in the 60s. Not in today's globalized economy.

I guess our ideological difference is, I'm more "spend what you got" while you are "spend what you will have" which is how majority thinks.

tsi_neal
12-16-2008, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by Xtrema


Then how about not getting a $380K mortgage and a $300K mortgage instead which will buy you the extra $500.

The 60% limit I set is a bit high. It should be more like 50%. Or a ratio should set for cost of living and mortgage payment cannot exceed that and your T4 should cover both before approval.



I totally agree with you on this point, I feel that far to many people over extend themselves on their mortgage. However lengthing the term is / should be a viable option to the right consumer.


Originally posted by Xtrema


That the line people used to sell you on properties. It will only worth more. But that's also a risk. How many towns comes and goes in history? Will Calgary even exist if the world can quit the oil based economy? What that last year should have taught us is that ANYTHING can happen.



I also agree with you here, for every up swing there is a down and every down there is an up. One thing to remember is that the nature of the beast is as long as the population is growing the economy will also. The other is everytime the economy takes a dump people panic, difference right now is the dump is bigger so more people are panicing. Things will get better, probably will get worse first tho.


Originally posted by Xtrema


No it does not. If you are financially sound, you don't need sub-prime. Sub-prime created a bunch of flippers who can't really afford properties beside their own. When the market fails, they take everyone down with them.



If your financially sound you dont need sub prime, but it WILL save you more money if you have it. Im all for saving money where I can. Personally I think the problem with sub prime is its to available, it should have only been available to the most secure of people. Like an extra reward for being financially responsible over the long term.

When people are only affording properties because of sub prime and long terms its no doubt that it turned into a problem.


Originally posted by Xtrema


Again, that last year has proved that our thinking of forever inflation is flawed. I'm not suggesting you can't have quality of life but if you are a responsible home owner, other part of your life will have to take a back seat until you make more $.



Im not sure if this stat still holds true but something like 90% of the american forclosures were second properties. That tells me that there was alot of irresponsible owners out there buying to flip and got cought with their pants down.

Also the markets will rebound in time, inflation is a given its the nature of the beast and whats going on right now wont change the big picture.


Originally posted by Xtrema


Stable employment for 35 year is key which may fly if you started out in the 60s. Not in today's globalized economy.

I guess our ideological difference is, I'm more "spend what you got" while you are "spend what you will have" which is how majority thinks.

Im not sure i understand that, if you 'spend what you got' then you save and buy the house outright. Impretty sure that if you get 20 years with a single employer 35 will be a possibility. However its more likely that you spend the 20 or 35 years moving around a single industry, but as said if you get 20 years in the industry 35 shouldnt be a problem.

The way i look at it smaller payments over a longer term is "safer", but at the cost of more intrest. Ideally people should have 6 months of living expenses on hand at any given time, covers them if they loose their job and have to take some thing for less pay temporarily. Also if your total bills come to 50% of your take home then if / when your job is lost its alot easier to make sure that everything gets covered.

Risky mortgages are a problem, but the length and rate on their own doesnt equal risk. Its a combination of everything. Each case should be better reviewed, or more practically better defined law on who can get what mortgages and why should be in place.

broken_legs
12-17-2008, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by tsi_neal


FWIW i feel that spending 60% of your take home on the mortgage is way to high and will get many into trouble. 50% is probably much more reasonable for the average person.


^^ OK sounds like you are actually arguing against yourself here. I cn do nothing but agree. The rules when I borrowed were 42% of your gross income. If people have to spend 60% of their income on a house, that means THEY CANT AFFORD IT.


Originally posted by tsi_neal

If your tied to a mortgage that is going to cost you more in intrest than you can reasonably expect to make in intrest if you invested the same money it isnt a mortgage worth having and will only benifit the lenders, hence a bad idea.


This is retarded. Where are you going to find consistent returns that will:
1.) Make up for the cost of your rent
2.) Make up for the equity you have built into a house.

There is no such investment available to anyone. If you have one that provides better than say 10% (PRETTY Fn GOOD!), great. Now subtract the cost of rent from those returns, and also subtract the equity you would have built into your home from those returns. Who do you think is going to have a higher net worth after 10 years???

hint: NOT THE PERSON WHO WAS INVESTING AT 10%




Originally posted by tsi_neal


sub prime is great for the consumer, and risky for everyone else. Im not suggesting that sub prime is a good option for anything but the most secure of borrower, which likely has assest of greater value than the mortgage anyways. I do feel it still has its place.


OK so you're saying that only the most financially secure person should have a sub prime mortgage.

I will again totally agree with you.


Originally posted by tsi_neal


Nope see above, I personally feel that someone starting out, with no student loans, in a trade or as a professional should reasonably be able to afford a home and maintain a reasonable quality of life. giving 60% of your take home doesnt leave much for a quality of life. By extending the loan by 10 years quality of life goes up and the lender is at no more risk.


Now you're saying that everyone deserves a house, even those who are just 'starting out'. I thought we agreed that sub prime was only for the the 'most secure of borrower'




Originally posted by tsi_neal


Giving someone who brings home 2500/mo a 35 year sub prime mortgage @ $1500/mo is risky. Giving someone who brings home 5000 a month the exact same mortgage (provided stable employment) is not risky





Originally posted by tsi_neal

If your financially sound you dont need sub prime, but it WILL save you more money if you have it. Im all for saving money where I can. Personally I think the problem with sub prime is its to available, it should have only been available to the most secure of people. Like an extra reward for being financially responsible over the long term.


How does gaining less equity and paying more interest, thus giving the bank more for less save you money?

this only works if your property is rented out not if you live in it.


Originally posted by tsi_neal
When people are only affording properties because of sub prime and long terms its no doubt that it turned into a problem.

Im so confused here.

What are you arguing? What is your actual position?

one one hand you are saying no one but the most secure borrowers should have access to sub prime, but then you say that someone just starting out should be allowed to have a high quality of life and get a sub prime loan.

I just don't get where you are coming from

tsi_neal
12-17-2008, 09:50 AM
No need to be a dick, my writing isnt always the clearest.

My actual position is that neither sub prime or lengthy terms on their own are a problem.

I feel the problem arises when you give said options to people that cant handle it.

IE give a 3rd year apprentice a long term mortgage and its likely a safe bet, give the dog groomer the same terms and who knows...


Its kinda like the argument is it the gun that kills people or that people kill people. IMO the gun is never the problem its the guy with the gun that is.

blownz
12-17-2008, 12:14 PM
Bottom line imo is that 30, 35, 40 year mortgages are just too long. I would bet that 99% of the people taking those mortgages out are doing it out of greed and a feeling of entitlement.

Someone can afford a 350k house on a 25 year mortgage but they [i]want[i/] that 400k house because for some reason they feel they need it so they end up with a 35 year mortgage. That is greed plain and simple.

Or someone can't afford a cheap 250k place with a 25 year mortgage but they can with a 35 year one. They feel they should be entitled to own their own place when maybe it is just best for them to rent.

Things worked perfectly fine before the 30 year plus mortgages came out. And things would still be perfectly fine if they never came out. In fact, things would be better because the run up in house prices wouldn't have been quite as bad leading to less people in over their heads.

blownz
12-17-2008, 12:18 PM
$400K home, 5% down, $380K mortgage, 20 yr amort, 5 year 5% fixed

Monthly payment is $2497.08.


Turn that 20 year mortgage into a 30 year and it will put about 500/mo extra in your pocket, at a total cost of $110,000

So for 20 years, you have an extra $500 a month in your pocket, so $120,000. But then you have 10 more years of paying 2k a month, that is any extra $240,000. Not 110k. And not a good deal.

Once again, that person should be buying a cheaper home or not buying at all.

scortracer
12-17-2008, 02:01 PM
In all fairness I have been qualified for a 25 year term on my second property. I am still going to put it at 35 year mtg. It has nothing to do with affording it. It has to do with having more money for me to play with upfront on a monthly basis on other investments such as my rsp. Not everyone who takes a longer mtg actually stays to that schedule for the full 35 or 40 years. Take the longer term up front then take advantage of your lump sum payments and the longer term mtg is a great option. The end result is all the same you want to have your mtg paid off for when you retire with equity built up in it. The way you get there doesn't matter as long as you get there. "The ends justify the means"

Mckenzie
12-17-2008, 02:12 PM
Well it is a matter of perspective. I do not think that people who want to pay a loan over a certain numbers of years is in any way shape or form greedy.

Maybe they just want to own a home and that is how they can afford it. Who cares if it is over 25/35 or 50 years? If someone is willing to lend them the money for that long, why is that greedy? I think that owning a home promotes stability, pride and discipline if they are serious about working to keep it. Renting breeds apathy IMO, but is a necessary part of life / society.

What is greedy is giving the loans to people who cannot afford them through predatory lending and fraudulent applications for performance related bonusses.

Xtrema
12-17-2008, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by Mckenzie
Maybe they just want to own a home and that is how they can afford it. Who cares if it is over 25/35 or 50 years? If someone is willing to lend them the money for that long, why is that greedy? I think that owning a home promotes stability, pride and discipline if they are serious about working to keep it. Renting breeds apathy IMO, but is a necessary part of life / society.

If our average house price is $1M and everyone is still making what we are making today, extending to 50 years isn't a bad option to make it affordable.


Originally posted by scortracer
In all fairness I have been qualified for a 25 year term on my second property. I am still going to put it at 35 year mtg. It has nothing to do with affording it. It has to do with having more money for me to play with upfront on a monthly basis on other investments such as my rsp. Not everyone who takes a longer mtg actually stays to that schedule for the full 35 or 40 years. Take the longer term up front then take advantage of your lump sum payments and the longer term mtg is a great option. The end result is all the same you want to have your mtg paid off for when you retire with equity built up in it. The way you get there doesn't matter as long as you get there. "The ends justify the means"

Again, we have another showing why this is a bad idea. People are overextending. It's the people who thought they will get there, didn't, and make all taxpayers paying the price.

tsi_neal
12-17-2008, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by blownz




So for 20 years, you have an extra $500 a month in your pocket, so $120,000. But then you have 10 more years of paying 2k a month, that is any extra $240,000. Not 110k. And not a good deal.

Once again, that person should be buying a cheaper home or not buying at all.


the extra 110,000 is the extra interest one would have to pay over the 30 year term vs. a 20 year term. Like you said not really a good deal, but if the difference is scraping by or living your life it can be worth it to many.





Originally posted by scortracer
In all fairness I have been qualified for a 25 year term on my second property. I am still going to put it at 35 year mtg. It has nothing to do with affording it. It has to do with having more money for me to play with upfront on a monthly basis on other investments such as my rsp. Not everyone who takes a longer mtg actually stays to that schedule for the full 35 or 40 years. Take the longer term up front then take advantage of your lump sum payments and the longer term mtg is a great option. The end result is all the same you want to have your mtg paid off for when you retire with equity built up in it. The way you get there doesn't matter as long as you get there. "The ends justify the means"


This is another advantage of long term mortgages. If you put the same cash amount into a 30 mortgage each year as you would on monthly payments of a 20 the 30 year loan will be payed off more quickly than the 20 year loan because there is more going onto the principle sooner.

blownz
12-17-2008, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by tsi_neal

the extra 110,000 is the extra interest one would have to pay over the 30 year term vs. a 20 year term. Like you said not really a good deal, but if the difference is scraping by or living your life it can be worth it to many.

The problem is most people are not doing it to keep themselves from scraping by. Most are doing it to buy the bigger house they don't really need, but think they need.

Lets say you get approved for 500k over 25 years or 600k over 35. Sure you can argue the benefits of doing the 500 over 35 years but I think most people are instead going to the 600k mortgage so they are still living paycheque to paycheque, only it is for another 10 years.

That seems to be the case with the majority of people and those are the people that I say are being greedy because I think they are just trying to keep up with the jones and not looking at what they really need or what they can really afford comfortably.





Originally posted by Xtrema

If our average house price is $1M and everyone is still making what we are making today, extending to 50 years isn't a bad option to make it affordable.

I personally don't think the average house price would ever get that out of control if the length of terms available would stay the same. I still think that the average house prices would not have gone nearly as high if the 30, 35, 40 year terms had never came to be. Every time a longer term was introduced it just created more demand to increase the average so in the end, it doesn't help more people afford a home, it just pushed up the averages and made the banks richer. I think the banks are the only ones to really benefit from the longer terms.

scortracer
12-17-2008, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by Xtrema


If our average house price is $1M and everyone is still making what we are making today, extending to 50 years isn't a bad option to make it affordable.



Again, we have another showing why this is a bad idea. People are overextending. It's the people who thought they will get there, didn't, and make all taxpayers paying the price.


I don't understand how that is over extending if I am choosing a longer period to pay it back when I am approved for that same amount at a shorter term and just choose to invest and lump sum payments to eventually pay less to interest and more to principle.

It's the people who didn't have the money to pay the mtg's to start with that don't make it. It's not a knock against the actual time frame of the mtg.

Xtrema
12-17-2008, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by scortracer
I don't understand how that is over extending if I am choosing a longer period to pay it back


Originally posted by scortracer
It has to do with having more money for me to play with upfront on a monthly basis on other investments such as my rsp.

IMO, if you're still contributing to RSP, yet you are adjusting your 2nd home purchase just so you can contribute, it's a sign of overextending yourself.

RSP should always come first as investment (unless your portfolio is already grown TOO BIG). No investment can give you the ROI like a year end tax refund.

If everyone do what you say, throwing maximum money allowed against principle every year, good for you. But only may be 1 in 10 people I know does that. Everybody else turn that $500 into a BMW.

scortracer
12-18-2008, 08:21 AM
I never said I was extending the mtg just so I can make investment purchases. I was giving an example since my rsp is all ready maxed out now I take that extra money and either invest it else where or keep adding to my pool for my next lump sum payment. With an interest rate of 2.75 percent why would I want to pay more to the interest then the principle at this point.

But I don't know why I am trying to prove myself to someone on the internet all I was saying is that it has nothing to do with the length of mtg for those who default it's the actual people taking the loans to start with are morons and don't know how to pay bills. Longer amortized mtgs ftw as long as you don't stick to paying it all back in 40 years.

broken_legs
12-18-2008, 09:36 AM
added another article to the original post.

Warnings about risky mortgages ignored

Xtrema
12-18-2008, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by scortracer
With an interest rate of 2.75 percent why would I want to pay more to the interest then the principle at this point.

Because to offset the interest of 2.75% on $380K amortized over 30 years, you'll need 300%/year return on a $6000 investment.

cdnsir
12-18-2008, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by scortracer
But I don't know why I am trying to prove myself to someone on the internet all I was saying is that it has nothing to do with the length of mtg for those who default it's the actual people taking the loans to start with are morons and don't know how to pay bills. Longer amortized mtgs ftw as long as you don't stick to paying it all back in 40 years.

I'm really surprised that no one shares your opinion on here. I totally understand what you're talking about and I'm doing the exact same thing.

With the extra money that I would have used towards a shorter mortgage, I find myself saving those coins and using them to max the year end bonus pmts anyways. The way it's going, I should be able to pay it off faster, if not match the regular 25 yr mortgage.

Another reason for stretching mine out is for safety. I now have more monthly free cash that goes into savings IN CASE I get laid off or something. At which point the money I'm saving for the lump sum pmt will become my lifeline for a few months.

I don't consider this stretching at all. Longer mortgage = more interest and higher risk, I totally agree with that. But if you're playing it right, you can actually use the longer term to your advantage.

Xtrema
12-18-2008, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by cdnsir
I don't consider this stretching at all. Longer mortgage = more interest and higher risk, I totally agree with that. But if you're playing it right, you can actually use the longer term to your advantage.

I'm not arguing the flexibility. I'm arguing that people use that "flexibility" to buy a bigger place then they should. Which cause the house prices to inflat. People has more debt and lenders making all the money.

That flexibility money should come from buying a cheaper place. Not extending the amortization period.

20yr VS 30yr mortgage, you would pay virtually same amount of interest monthly for the 1st 5 years. If you throw all the money you saved from the switch into the principle, it's JUST like the 20yr mortgage.

tsi_neal
12-18-2008, 08:54 PM
I ran some numbers in excell... the numbers i ran pertain directly to my financial situation so ill leave some specifics out.

I compared a 35yr mortgage vs a 20yr mortgage @5% for total potential retirement savings given a specific yearly amount to spend. I took the yearly savings from having a 35yr over a 20yr and invested at 8% compounding yearly (i feel 8% is a fair value that you can expect to get on long term investments). When each term ran out I put the full amount of the yearly money into the investment. I ran the scenario up untill I would be 60. Also I subtracted the extra intrest from the 35yr mortgage off its total at the end. EDIT: i used accelerated bi-weekly payment plan so the 35yr is really 29 and the 20 is really 17.

Results; My particular scenario puts the 20yr mortgage as the winner by $2000. Due to the nature of compound intrest, if your buying early in life or planning on working late in life the short mortgage will pay off much more. Likewise if you buy late or retire early the longer term may suit you better as it can allow more savings earlier.

Other thing I figure is that if you have a true one time lump sum your are most likely better off to invest it.

soma0324
12-19-2008, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by tsi_neal
I ran some numbers in excell... the numbers i ran pertain directly to my financial situation so ill leave some specifics out.

I compared a 35yr mortgage vs a 20yr mortgage @5% for total potential retirement savings given a specific yearly amount to spend. I took the yearly savings from having a 35yr over a 20yr and invested at 8% compounding yearly (i feel 8% is a fair value that you can expect to get on long term investments). When each term ran out I put the full amount of the yearly money into the investment. I ran the scenario up untill I would be 60. Also I subtracted the extra intrest from the 35yr mortgage off its total at the end. EDIT: i used accelerated bi-weekly payment plan so the 35yr is really 29 and the 20 is really 17.

Results; My particular scenario puts the 20yr mortgage as the winner by $2000. Due to the nature of compound intrest, if your buying early in life or planning on working late in life the short mortgage will pay off much more. Likewise if you buy late or retire early the longer term may suit you better as it can allow more savings earlier.

Other thing I figure is that if you have a true one time lump sum your are most likely better off to invest it.

you are making it as confusing as it can get. i would just show some numbers to prove my point. so that everyone could understand what are you exactly talking about. the numbers doesnt need to be related to your situation just some assumed numbers will be fine.

Xtrema
12-19-2008, 11:22 AM
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/859/20yryr0.gif

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/992/30yrer6.gif


After 5 yrs, you would have put in $31821 more into principle for 20yr plan than 30 yr plan.

Difference in payment is $468/month, after 60 mthly payments, you gain $28080 in flexibility.

Say you invest that $468 monthly and get 8% return but have to pay 25% taxes on the return which in fact you'll be gaining @ 6%/yr (I'm leaving out RRSP at this point to make things simple, since you can't reapply the investment into the principle once it's in the RRSP portfolio)

After 5 years, you would have $33450.

Which means, on a 30yr mortgage, assuming you invest your "flexibility" monthly and not use for anything else and has ideal ROI, you would pay $1600 more into principle as to a 20yr mortgage after 5 years.

The big BUT is that ideally you will be measly $1600 ahead, when all conditions are met. We all know "flexibility" will be used elsewhere when we have that shopping binge and that investment averaging 8% is not guaranteed.

tsi_neal
12-19-2008, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by soma0324


you are making it as confusing as it can get. i would just show some numbers to prove my point. so that everyone could understand what are you exactly talking about. the numbers doesnt need to be related to your situation just some assumed numbers will be fine.


Simply put my numbers show me that if I were to put $30,000/yr into a mortgage and investments for 32 years the end result has no appreciable difference. Anyway I crunched the numbers I would own a home and have roughly the same amount of money to retire on.

Which if you go back to my argument... i may need to rethink my position some :banghead:

And Xtrema's point is totally valid that alot of people arent going to take the full 30,000/yr and do the "right" thing with it, so its better to have a mortgage that commits you to do the "right" thing.