Rev Matching...dead? (New Nissan 370z)

[diamondedge]

We've had F1 style gearboxes in Ferrari's from the 90's, now we have fancy dual clutch jobs...

The final step has been taken. Nissan 370Z.

http://driving.canada.com/research/viewroadtest.spy?artid=103728

Something they call Syncro Rev Match or something. I read it in the Herald. No paddles, just traditional stick. Clutch in, as you shift down, rear wheel sensors read wheel speed, computer blips engine perfectly. Means heel-toe is dead too.

Discuss.

[A2VR6]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbmT1EepDU0
If you start watching at the 5:00 mark you can see how this system works in action.... pretty cool! Still, i find it one of the most rewarding things is a proper heel-toe downshift.

[2EFNFAST]

more senors = more shit to break :nut:

[Canmorite]

Originally posted by 2EFNFAST
more senors = more shit to break :nut:

=More shit for them to fix. Why they would implement a system like this in a manual tranny car is weird...

[2EFNFAST]

Originally posted by Canmorite


=More shit for them to fix. Why they would implement a system like this in a manual tranny car is weird...

Well, considering how much society is being dumb'd down by technology today, I'm not surprised.

It's everywhere you look - how many people would just not be able to function w/o a spellcheck function, for example. Damn, remember 20yrs ago when we had to use dictionaries to check spelling :nut:


edit: I'd be curious what happens if one side (assuming the sensors are on both wheels) breaks and the other still functions :rofl:

[rage2]

Originally posted by A2VR6
Still, i find it one of the most rewarding things is a proper heel-toe downshift.
I find one of the most rewarding things while driving is to find payphones to get a hold of my friends. I mean really, cell phones? Text messages? Technology sucks! ;)


Originally posted by 2EFNFAST
more senors = more shit to break :nut:
Uhh, wheel speed sensors have been on cars since the 70's. They last longer than the car.


Originally posted by Canmorite
Why they would implement a system like this in a manual tranny car is weird...
Do you know how much clutch this is gonna save? It's for those that feel the need to revert to old technology so they can continue to think they're a better driver because they can drive a manual, but not really need to know how to drive a manual properly. Pretty much like 80% of the manual drivers in North America :).

Honestly, one of my biggest pet peeves is riding with someone driving a manual tranny car, and they slowly ease off the clutch when downshifting. Or throw it in neutral and just use the brakes. And they wonder why they need a new clutch at 40,000km. If you don't know how to drive a manual properly, it's not gonna make you any cooler. The only people you'll impress is the other 80% of manual drivers that do the same thing.

[diamondedge]

I wonder if this system is money-shift proof.

[rage2]

Probably not, unless they have a lockout in each gear. I dont know of any cars that have that.

[JfuckinC]

its good for people with me that have size 14's and have trouble with heel toe shifting haha

[rage2]

I have size 13 shoes and have no problems with hell toe shifting. Hell I can bang off double declutch heel toe shifts like it was nothing. Don't blame shoe size lol.

A little off topic, but I gotta post my favorite money shift video.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b14_1226410944

[Moe Man]

^ holy fuck that was sweet, he did a endo with a car :rofl:

[EM1FTW]

woah
seems like a pretty cool idea!

and that video of the guy screwing up his shift super bad is hilarious!

[JfuckinC]

Originally posted by rage2
I have size 13 shoes and have no problems with hell toe shifting. Hell I can bang off double declutch heel toe shifts like it was nothing. Don't blame shoe size lol.

A little off topic, but I gotta post my favorite money shift video.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b14_1226410944

i swear man! its hard, but i wear skate shoes.. that might make a difference? i was driving my friends little eclipse on friday and my feet barely fit in where the pedals were! i need some pumas lol

[Jlude]

that was intense.

worst one I've ever seen.

[rage2]

Originally posted by JfuckinC
i swear man! its hard, but i wear skate shoes.. that might make a difference? i was driving my friends little eclipse on friday and my feet barely fit in where the pedals were! i need some pumas lol
haha doubt it. I've driven at the track with mostly sandals, but I've used dress shoes, hightops, everything. Before I drive any random MT car, I would sit there and check what the best angle to heel toe, and adjust my feet to use that position. For the cars with really tight foot spacing I end up rotating my feet very slightly, which doesn't really look like heel toe at that point.

[R154]

are there any good video's to learn how to heel toe properly?

my fucking pedals are so far apart and the accelerator is so much more forward then the brake that it is litterally impossible to do.

[Mibz]

Originally posted by R154
are there any good video's to learn how to heel toe properly?I like THIS ONE (http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Heel-Toe-Double-Clutching_57431.htm). It's not instructional but it gives you a good amount of footage to learn.


Originally posted by R154
my fucking pedals are so far apart and the accelerator is so much more forward then the brake that it is litterally impossible to do. This is why you heel-toe while at the track and not while zipping around the neighborhood. You can rev-match without double clutching during light breaking and heel-toe during hard braking.

[SilverBoost]

In my 02 Nissan when you touch the brake the ECU cuts the throttle automatically by a certain percentage - unsure of amount, but somewhere around 15-20% IIRC, so trying to do any sort of heel toe is useless. This is what I've been told at least but couldn't bother to take the time to research the accuracy of the claim. Suppose to be some kind of safety feature because Sentras were never meant to be at a track utilizing heel toe driving techniques..... of course they were never meant to have 350hp either. :D

[scat19]

Endo in a car lol! Wow that was cool haha

Honestly, what is the point of double clutching now a days? I hear people saying oh I do it all the time blah blah blah, but they have a synchronized gearbox. You dont need too! It was used for unsychronized gearboxes where a gear changed consisted of two gear changes. One for neutral, to speed up the gears, and then the actual change. :facepalm:

As with a computer, the downshift will be perfect, every time..

[natejj]

Originally posted by rage2

Honestly, one of my biggest pet peeves is riding with someone driving a manual tranny car, and they slowly ease off the clutch when downshifting. Or throw it in neutral and just use the brakes. And they wonder why they need a new clutch at 40,000km. If you don't know how to drive a manual properly, it's not gonna make you any cooler. The only people you'll impress is the other 80% of manual drivers that do the same thing.

Whats wrong with going into neutral and just braking? I've been doing that for ages... figured it was easier on the clutch then down shifting.... brakes are cheaper then clutch, no?

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by natejj


Whats wrong with going into neutral and just braking? I've been doing that for ages... figured it was easier on the clutch then down shifting.... brakes are cheaper then clutch, no?

One problem is you have no control to deal with emergencies. It's hard to pull away on neutral.

[natejj]

Originally posted by Xtrema


One problem is you have no control to deal with emergencies. It's hard to pull away on neutral.

Well I wouldn't do it in traffic, just coasting to a red light or something like that.

[szw]

Originally posted by Xtrema


One problem is you have no control to deal with emergencies. It's hard to pull away on neutral.
From rage2's wording it sounded like doing this causes extra wear on the clutch. I do this all the time, I guess cuz I'm lazy and figured it didn't hurt anything.

[Super_Geo]

Yeah I always pop it into neutral and coast to red lights... I can't see how it would be any more wear on the clutch.

[Aleks]

In some places it's illegal to coast in N as you're considered out of control of your vehicle.

[Genjuro]

Originally posted by rage2
I have size 13 shoes and have no problems with hell toe shifting. Hell I can bang off double declutch heel toe shifts like it was nothing. Don't blame shoe size lol.

A little off topic, but I gotta post my favorite money shift video.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b14_1226410944
How tall are you rage?
I'm 6'5 and I have problems heel toe shifting. I think it has to do with the length of your legs in and how you fit in your car, not the shoe size or what type of shoes.

I wonder if you mod to a different clutch or lighter fly-wheel and see how the ecu will respond to that?

[supe]

Originally posted by Super_Geo
Yeah I always pop it into neutral and coast to red lights... I can't see how it would be any more wear on the clutch.

Its actually better to leave it in gear:
-helps slow your car so you have less wear on your brakes
-throttle is ready in case you need it
-contrary to what some think it will save a little on gas

I heard some driving tests will flunk you if you coast to a stop.

[TACO.VIDAL]

Heres Boris Said doing heel toe.

(Ignore that its Nascar... he races anything.)

ihCgxQnex5Q

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by supe
I heard some driving tests will flunk you if you coast to a stop.

That is correct. Right gear at right speed. Never neutral when car is moving. I got a big correction from my instructor when I learn manual.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Genjuro
How tall are you rage?
I'm 6'5 and I have problems heel toe shifting. I think it has to do with the length of your legs in and how you fit in your car, not the shoe size or what type of shoes.
I'm 6'2", and have really long legs. It's definately not as easy as someone that's 5'7". If I'm in a car I've never driven before, I usually sit around for 5 mins testing seating and heel toe positions that's comfortable before taking the car out.

As for coasting in neutral, I think everyone's got that covered. And ya my wording was weird, it definately doesn't affect clutch life, but it's a dangerous thing to do.

If you ever do solo2, do a run through a serpentine in neutral and see what happens lol.

[E36M3]

I think this is great.. I don't heel and toe on the street, but I do like to rev match.

To answer the question about a synchro, the rev matching also evens the power delivery so that you don't snap a high torque car sideways or put down power in an unexpected way and disturb the balance of the car.

Coasting to a stop in neutral is extremely dangerous. I have had two or three times, especially in winter when someone behind me isn't able to stop in time and I have moved ahead to avoid a collision. Sitting in neutral would add a couple seconds to this process and most likely result in a collision.

[szw]

Originally posted by supe


Its actually better to leave it in gear:
-contrary to what some think it will save a little on gas


What is the reasoning behind this?

[rage2]

At idle, it needs fuel to keep the engine running. On coastdown, there's fuel cut until ~1200rpm. Coasting at anything over that rpm takes zero fuel.

[herragge]

Originally posted by Mibz

This is why you heel-toe while at the track and not while zipping around the neighborhood. You can rev-match without double clutching during light breaking and heel-toe during hard braking.

Huh? Learn heel-toe at the track? I don't think it can be expected that someone can learn it in one session. That just isn't realistic to only practice heel and toe only when your at a track. It isn't necessarily dangerous to heel and toe when you don't know how to do it, you just have to be careful. Everyone I know how learn on the street and I would go as far to say as most people learn on the street. It's not like we're drifting or doing some unsafe activity.

In fact heel and toe downshifts are 10X easier on the track then they are on the street. If you can learn it on the street at lower speeds and lower revs, on the track it is easy.

[Gibson]

Originally posted by rage2
At idle, it needs fuel to keep the engine running. On coastdown, there's fuel cut until ~1200rpm. Coasting at anything over that rpm takes zero fuel.

This would be why if you don't ease off and on the throttle when in gear you get a bit of a stutter I would assume?

I always rev-match when downshifting, and I'll heel and toe if I'm braking at least moderately hard.

[5000Audi]

coasting in N very dangerous... for some reason i dont belive that.. at a light i always keep in N yes i do always downshift and rev match when slowing down but i really dont see a problem with coasting.. pretty sure 50% of drivers do this...

its just like saying driving with one hand is dangerous...since you dont have full control of the vehical..

sorry but i dont see the huge danger in coasting in N...

[rage2]

Originally posted by 5000Audi
coasting in N very dangerous... for some reason i dont belive that.. at a light i always keep in N yes i do always downshift and rev match when slowing down but i really dont see a problem with coasting.. pretty sure 50% of drivers do this...

its just like saying driving with one hand is dangerous...since you dont have full control of the vehical..

sorry but i dont see the huge danger in coasting in N...
It's very different than driving with one hand. Coasting in neutral you've disconnected the drive wheels completely, so all 4 wheels are free spinning with no drive or engine braking to control wheel speed. In an emergency lane change maneuver, the car will spin out of control very quickly.

It's very dangerous if an emergency maneuver needs to be performed. If you're just stopping, which 99% of the time you are, it's fine.

On slippery surfaces (with no ABS) the drive wheels will lock up a lot quicker out of gear in neutral than in gear.

On older cars, it can overheat the brakes. I don't think that'll happen in today's cars though.

[A2VR6]

Originally posted by rage2
At idle, it needs fuel to keep the engine running. On coastdown, there's fuel cut until ~1200rpm. Coasting at anything over that rpm takes zero fuel.

:werd: for you guys with those trip computers in your cars that tell you instantaneous fuel consumption, try leaving it in gear and try coasting in neutral, you'll see that this is exactly the case.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by rage2

It's very different than driving with one hand. Coasting in neutral you've disconnected the drive wheels completely, so all 4 wheels are free spinning with no drive or engine braking to control wheel speed. In an emergency lane change maneuver, the car will spin out of control very quickly.

It's very dangerous if an emergency maneuver needs to be performed. If you're just stopping, which 99% of the time you are, it's fine.

On slippery surfaces (with no ABS) the drive wheels will lock up a lot quicker out of gear in neutral than in gear.

On older cars, it can overheat the brakes. I don't think that'll happen in today's cars though.

When I was marshalling at the Cochrane rally back in 2007, I was setting up a start control with these two chicks. My nissan pick up with bald goodyears on it was not ideal at all for transporting three people in icey winter, so we took one of the girl's golf. Now, to get where we had to go we had to travel down the stage before the rally started and some of those hills are STEEP. Needless to say I freaked out when instead of downshifting she pushed in the clutch going down a really steep grade covered in ice and the car got super squirrely. The fact that we survived was amazing. I then nicely suggested to her that she keep the car in gear without pushing in the clutch at ALL times, because of the fuel mileage savings, brake pad wear, and safety. She learned quick which was nice, she even said she had been taught by her father to always push the clutch in when slowing down :facepalm: Hopefully thats one less dangerous driver on the road!

[EK 2.0]

Originally posted by Genjuro

I wonder if you mod to a different clutch or lighter fly-wheel and see how the ecu will respond to that?


I don't think that would effect anything.

As it gathers information from wheel speed sensors...and then will blip the throttle to match...so now...it will just blip it a lil higher...

[Mibz]

Originally posted by herragge
I don't think it can be expected that someone can learn it in one session.Did I mention learning it? I don't care if you're on the track or in an empty parking lot learning it. Just stay the fuck off populated roads.

If you're going to tell me that somebody learning heel-toe is not dangerous on public roads then you need to rethink what's happening. The odds of a foot slipping or the wrong pedal being pushed are dramatically high. I wouldn't want somebody learning to heel-toe behind me.

[supe]

Originally posted by A2VR6


:werd: for you guys with those trip computers in your cars that tell you instantaneous fuel consumption, try leaving it in gear and try coasting in neutral, you'll see that this is exactly the case.

Yes I have the fuel consumption meter. When in gear 0L/100km when coasting in N its something small but still something.:thumbsup: