Subaru All Wheel Drive means more then one wheel spinning at any time right? [Archive] - Beyond.ca - Car Forums

bigboom

01-07-2009, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by Barlow
so shouldn't i have had more then one wheel spinning?

no with subaru non sti vehicles there are no locking diffs. so essentially how many wheels you have spinning is determined by the traction you have from each individual wheel. if three wheels have no traction then only one wheel will spin.

Barlow

01-07-2009, 01:51 PM

howd you get out?

tentacles

01-07-2009, 01:54 PM

subaru non sti vehicles there are no locking diffs.

Previous generation WRXs had rear LSDs. They took it out of the current generation to save money. The Legacy Spec B still has a rear LSD too.

06civic

01-07-2009, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by Barlow
howd you get out?

I had to shovel around the tire so they can touch the pavement....

alloroc

01-07-2009, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by benyl
No locking diffs.

the STI has 3 locking diffs = 4 wheels spinning.

This but the WRX's have the viscous limited slip center diff. but it will allow some slip.

I'm curious though. My '05 legacy has the old center diff (non limited slip) and with KW-17's I think I could plow a parking lot with it. What the heck were you doing to get stuck?

heavyD

01-07-2009, 02:03 PM

It's one of the things that bugs me about the WRX. No LSD's, no NAV, and no HID's. At least throw in a center LSD for crying out loud.

Everyone complains that the Ralliart is expensive but it comes with 3 LSD's (front/center/rear of course) including the EVO IX's ACD for selectable Gravel/Tarmac/Snow setting and HID's even at base trim for $33K.

BTW: Symmetrical AWD doesn't mean shit in the real world.

bigboom

01-07-2009, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by tentacles

Previous generation WRXs had rear LSDs. They took it out of the current generation to save money. The Legacy Spec B still has a rear LSD too.

I meant currently in the impreza vehicles. should have clarified. I owned a gd and a spec b and when driving the new wrx and impreza noticed that they didnt have the same ability to get out of trouble in deep snow.

Originally posted by heavyD
It's one of the things that bugs me about the WRX. No LSD's, no NAV, and no HID's. At least throw in a center LSD for crying out loud.

Everyone complains that the Ralliart is expensive but it comes with 3 LSD's (front/center/rear of course) including the EVO IX's ACD for selectable Gravel/Tarmac/Snow setting and HID's even at base trim for $33K.

BTW: Symmetrical AWD doesn't mean shit in the real world.

completely agree, when my gf was looking for a new vehicle and i was looking at new cars this was the one thing that i had trouble getting over, an AWD vehicle without any locking differentials really doesnt make much sense to me and becomes quite useless when you get stuck. and i would not pay $30k plus for any of the imprezas. but the sti is now quite affordable if you get the base package :)

Canmorite

01-07-2009, 02:21 PM

I've never gotten stuck in my Subaru, and I've done some deep snow adventures haha. I had a '92 with lots of clearance, never got stuck. The newer WRXs and lowered Subarus will have problems...

tentacles

01-07-2009, 02:32 PM

At least throw in a center LSD for crying out loud.

I don't think it could be AWD without a center LSD? :confused:

Don't forget the stock tires on the WRX are also used on high performance cars such as the Geo Metro and the last Gen Prius.

kevie88

01-07-2009, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by heavyD
It's one of the things that bugs me about the WRX. No LSD's, no NAV, and no HID's. At least throw in a center LSD for crying out loud.

Everyone complains that the Ralliart is expensive but it comes with 3 LSD's (front/center/rear of course) including the EVO IX's ACD for selectable Gravel/Tarmac/Snow setting and HID's even at base trim for $33K.

Being a Subaru guy I hate to agree with you but I do.. The Ralliart is a better buy.

clem24

01-07-2009, 02:56 PM

Did they change their AWD system? From what I know, all manual equipped Subarus have a centre "viscous coupling system". When a wheel spins, the fluid in the diff heats up and thickens, and transfers power to a wheel that is spinning slower and away from the one spinning faster (the slipping one). So their slogan "transfers power from the wheels that slip to the wheels that grip" should hold true. This is basically a centre LSD.

I am also surprised they got rid of the rear LSD. My 05 Legacy GT has a viscous rear diff. The Spec B has a Torsen type LSD in the rear instead. Heck even my 00 2.5RS had a rear Viscous LSD.

QuasarCav

01-07-2009, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by Barlow
So i was stuck in the snow and for the life of me could not understand why on my 2009 wrx 265 only one wheel was spinning?

This is a Symetrical all wheel drive car.

Any thoughts?

Are you running the OE tires?

benyl

01-07-2009, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by kevie88

Being a Subaru guy I hate to agree with you but I do.. The Ralliart is a better buy.

Except for the fact that it is really slow... in comparison of course.

tsi_neal

01-07-2009, 03:24 PM

sounds like subaru dropped the ball... i mean really an AWD car without LSD'd is kinda gay

I noticed a difference when going from a car with a center and rear viscous coupler to center and rear torsen diff's on the slick ice. the torsens just dont work in the slick... But at least they are there in the dry...

95EagleAWD

01-07-2009, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by heavyD
It's one of the things that bugs me about the WRX. No LSD's, no NAV, and no HID's. At least throw in a center LSD for crying out loud.

Everyone complains that the Ralliart is expensive but it comes with 3 LSD's (front/center/rear of course) including the EVO IX's ACD for selectable Gravel/Tarmac/Snow setting and HID's even at base trim for $33K.

BTW: Symmetrical AWD doesn't mean shit in the real world.

That's what stopped me from looking at '03 and '04 Evos. No good diffs in them. The '05 has LSDs all around and the ACD. Can't wait.

heavyD

01-07-2009, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by benyl

Except for the fact that it is really slow... in comparison of course.

To be fair the Ralliart is faster 0-60 than every other compact except the WRX and 1/4 mile is on par with cars like the MS3 and Cobalt SS. The 4B11 is pretty stout when you consider that the Ralliart has a 300lb weight disadvantage compared to the WRX. That's like carrying that fat fuck from the Panago Commercials in the passenger seat on the drag strip and around the course.

hampstor

01-07-2009, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by heavyD

To be fair the Ralliart is faster 0-60 than every other compact except the WRX and 1/4 mile is on par with cars like the MS3 and Cobalt SS. The 4B11 is pretty stout when you consider that the Ralliart has a 300lb weight disadvantage compared to the WRX. That's like carrying that fat fuck from the Panago Commercials in the passenger seat on the drag strip and around the course.

To be fair, no one invited the Ralliart, MS3, Cobalt SS or any compairson vs the WRX yet you brought it up as an explanation as to why his WRX was stuck in the snow.

Barlow, how deep was the snow where you got stuck and what were you doing there :angel:

sillysod

01-07-2009, 05:06 PM

Dunno what type of AWD system the Subaru uses but the Torsen system on the Quattro powers all four regardless of how stuck i get (and i have had it burried in Whistler) all 4 wheels always spin - digging a big hole and high centering my car. :(

bspot

01-07-2009, 05:15 PM

^ Which Audi do you have? It's been different over the years.

I drive a B6 S4 which is a Torsen center diff and open front and rear diffs with VLSD.

Not sure I agree with Torsen being crap on slippery roads, as I'm able to pull off the line faster than most AWD and 4x4 vehicles in the winter. No question VLSD is kinda crappy, and sometimes you have to turn the system off if you pick one wheel up in the snow, but even with it off I never have any problem getting going, even with a lowered car in deep snow, it's just the ass swings out a lot more with stability control and VLSD off.

EDIT: You totally edited after you looked up that you had Torsen in your car. I'm guessing it must be an S4 or RS4 as most of the others have gone to Haldex now I believe.

tsi_neal

01-07-2009, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by bspot
^ Which Audi do you have? It's been different over the years.

I drive a B6 S4 which is a Torsen center diff and open front and rear diffs with VLSD.

Not sure I agree with Torsen being crap on slippery roads, as I'm able to pull off the line faster than most AWD and 4x4 vehicles in the winter. No question VLSD is kinda crappy, and sometimes you have to turn the system off if you pick one wheel up in the snow, but even with it off I never have any problem getting going, even with a lowered car in deep snow, it's just the ass swings out a lot more with stability control and VLSD off.

EDIT: You totally edited after you looked up that you had Torsen in your car. I'm guessing it must be an S4 or RS4 as most of the others have gone to Haldex now I believe.

Electronically controlled torsen's work great in the snow.
A torsen with no electronics effectively turns into an open diff when its too slipery.

Moe Man

01-07-2009, 07:18 PM

i still think the best system is Quadra drive ( grand cherokees ).

i once lifted the rear end in one and started to turn one of the rear wheels and as i turned it got harder and harder untill it locked. That thing never got suck!

sillysod

01-07-2009, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by bspot
^ Which Audi do you have? It's been different over the years.

I drive a B6 S4 which is a Torsen center diff and open front and rear diffs with VLSD.

Not sure I agree with Torsen being crap on slippery roads, as I'm able to pull off the line faster than most AWD and 4x4 vehicles in the winter. No question VLSD is kinda crappy, and sometimes you have to turn the system off if you pick one wheel up in the snow, but even with it off I never have any problem getting going, even with a lowered car in deep snow, it's just the ass swings out a lot more with stability control and VLSD off.

EDIT: You totally edited after you looked up that you had Torsen in your car. I'm guessing it must be an S4 or RS4 as most of the others have gone to Haldex now I believe.

haha.... total edit. I did a quick post thinking I had to leave the computer and just left it. Then I fixed it....

The B6 A4 uses a Torsen and it is great only problem is in deep snow it digs itself in easily b/c it spins all 4 tires. Even if only 1 tire is on the good pavement it will still send power evenly to all the tires including that one.

My wife has a Passat 4mo and it also uses the Torsen system. The Halidex is used on the A3 and the B7+ A4's.

RY213

01-07-2009, 10:28 PM

I have never once been stuck in my WRX. My car is lowered as well, and I have deliberately parked in snow to show off at work. No LSD has never been an issue...

Barlow

01-08-2009, 08:29 AM

the snow was roughly 3 inches deep,

and yeah i don't think its right i got stuck to the point where it took two people to push me out.

Hell, my 2000 civic was able to get me out of deeper snow...

eating dinner at my parents place.

redblack

01-08-2009, 08:36 AM

only 3 inches? maybe you need to get the car checked out. The wifes 05 2.5rs auto has been through/parked in deeper snow than that without getting stuck.

5000Audi

01-08-2009, 08:55 AM

3 inches? are you kidding lol? i think a car with slicks could move in 3 inches of snow... so i would think you have OEM tires and there was a layer of ice under the snow if you couldnt move the car

I love the quattro system, always been great to me, if i ever get in a sticky situation i turn the knob and i got front or front+rear diffs locked up, but the rear diff unlocks at 10km an hour or somthing along those lines.. I went down a back road when we had those couple good snow falls, there was about 2 feet of power snow and my car trucked right through it no problems..

so Quattro FTW!!!

gretz

01-08-2009, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by 5000Audi
3 inches? are you kidding lol? i think a car with slicks could move in 3 inches of snow

car with slicks wont move in 1 inch of snow

5000Audi

01-08-2009, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by gretz

car with slicks wont move in 1 inch of snow

with the proper driving without spinning i bet it would!

alloroc

01-08-2009, 09:25 AM

Originally posted by Barlow
the snow was roughly 3 inches deep,

and yeah i don't think its right i got stuck to the point where it took two people to push me out.

Hell, my 2000 civic was able to get me out of deeper snow...

eating dinner at my parents place.

Could have been the VCA then, maybe check your owners manual or subaru to see if you can shut it off in situations like that.

benyl

01-08-2009, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by 5000Audi

with the proper driving without spinning i bet it would!

No.

5000Audi

01-08-2009, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by benyl

No.

in one inch of snow...thats like this [___________] deep... but guess one inch of snow is crazy hard to drive in? but ITS ALL GOOD... back on topic... :thumbsup:

clem24

01-08-2009, 09:33 AM

Originally posted by 5000Audi
i think a car with slicks could move in 3 inches of snow...

Fail...

Fuji

01-08-2009, 09:35 AM

Welcome to 1990... The AWD system with the exception of the STi and them adding a rear LSD in some years has not changed all that much.

Viscous couplings FTL

benyl

01-08-2009, 09:48 AM

Originally posted by 5000Audi

in one inch of snow...thats like this [___________] deep... but guess one inch of snow is crazy hard to drive in? but ITS ALL GOOD... back on topic... :thumbsup:

Why don't you try it and report back.

I had to move my STI in my garage so I could take off my RE070 and put my winters on. It has 3 LSDs which all lock at any speed. Probably one of the best AWD systems out there.

I made the mistake of backing out on to my drive way a little so I didn't have go back and forth a bunch of times to get in the middle of the garage. There was less an inch or two of snow and it took 3 guys to get my car in the garage.

http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/bridgestone/bs_potenza_re70_ci2_l.jpg

But hey, you are a smart guy and have superstar skillz. I guess I don't know how to drive eh?

tsi_neal

01-08-2009, 09:50 AM

5000Audi

01-08-2009, 09:54 AM

Originally posted by benyl

Why don't you try it and report back.

I had to move my STI in my garage so I could take off my RE070 and put my winters on. It has 3 LSDs which all lock at any speed. Probably one of the best AWD systems out there.

I made the mistake of backing out on to my drive way a little so I didn't have go back and forth a bunch of times to get in the middle of the garage. There was less than an inch of snow and it took 3 guys to get my car in the garage.

But hey, you are a smart guy and have superstar skillz. I guess I don't know how to drive eh?

well after you say that i am going to ask if your driveway in on an angle?, I recall when i was living in Vancouver i had 17' Neogens on my car and it snowed a good fall and i was still able to drive...and my car was FWD with no LSD at all... so for a subbie AWD with locks not being able to go back in the garage with summer tires... couldnt have been a stright driveway..

BUT if you want to further argue with me send it to PM so we dont trash the thread...

Zero102

01-08-2009, 09:58 AM

Originally posted by 5000Audi

with the proper driving without spinning i bet it would!

Sorry mate no
Drove my 951 on Toyo Proxes' back from new york in december/january one year. Level ground isn't so bad, even in 2-3" of snow, because eventually you will get moving (unless it is semi-packed down), but any incline at all and you are stuck completely. Driveways? nope, parking lot entrances? nope :(

As for the subaru, interesting this comes up as I am looking at an 09 impreza right now. Always been a huge fan of scooby's. I see they have a viscous coupling center diff but open front/back's a bit of a trade-off. None the less, you should still be spinning 1 wheel on either the front or the back rather quickly, and one wheel from the other set less quickly (viscous coupling differentials require a speed differential to work I think). So if you are just letting it slip a hair then yeah you will only get one wheel spinning.

Don't feel bad tho, I got my golf stuck out front of the in-laws place 2 days ago because the snow plow made an 8" high snow bank for me to park on. Only made it about half-way in before I got stuck, and I have good winter tires.

gretz

01-08-2009, 10:01 AM

no arguements. Just because you think it would be possible and people with experience know the outcome.....

Rstar

01-08-2009, 12:29 PM

I have been kind of lazy and haven't gotten my winters put on and have yet to get stuck driving around in the RE92s. I've been trying kind of hard to get stuck too.

Last year with the winters on I couldn't make it up a somewhat icey inclined driveway from a stop.

Shovel your driveway Benyl!

zipdoa

01-08-2009, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by Moe Man
i still think the best system is Quadra drive ( grand cherokees ).

i once lifted the rear end in one and started to turn one of the rear wheels and as i turned it got harder and harder untill it locked. That thing never got suck!

It's pretty impressive... I went offroading in 5foot deep snow last night with all-seasons on, and while I did get stuck for about 20 minutes, I did manage to get out eventually... the 4x4 works really well, starts off 100% rear wheel and then moves things forward. Do you know if it can go 100% front wheel as well? Because I was given'r in the snow and my buddy said at some points only the front wheels would spin when the rear wheels had 0 traction. Either way, it was a hell of a lot of fun.

psycoticclown

01-08-2009, 12:52 PM

I finally got stuck yesterday night :(. Running the stock RE92 all-seasons. They don't fucking plow in Lethbridge, it's ridiculous. My street actually has 16 inches of snow, I've seen so many trucks get stuck already. Anyways, theres a little dirt road I take for a shortcut and the snow on the road is easily 2-3 feet at some points, I usually drive on the ruts. Well I got high centered yesterday haha :nut: . Had to get my friend to push me out.

But it's amazing how much snow this car can get through, the dirt road is usually only trucks because nothing can get through there, and the looks I get when I drive through there are priceless. Tiny subie ripping through quicker than the raised trucks.

BlackArcher101

01-08-2009, 01:04 PM

Unable to get stuck with mine as well so far *knocks on wood*. Gone through snow taller than the skidplate. I'll get high centered before I get stuck. Even that takes work as I've had my front in the air plowing the snow with the skidplate and the rear dragging through it.

psycoticclown

01-08-2009, 05:09 PM

How much are skidplates and can snow damage anything?

Tomaz

01-08-2009, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by psycoticclown
How much are skidplates and can snow damage anything?

Depends on how fast and hard you hit copious amounts of snow...

As for the price, i know one for my car is $250.

403Gemini

01-08-2009, 05:28 PM

Odd, I've had no issues with deep snow in my WRX in areas where my jeep couldnt even get in and out of confidently.

clem24

01-09-2009, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by Tomaz

As for the price, i know one for my car is $250.

What exactly does the skid plates cover? I've seen plates for the rear diff for Subies widely available, and those are cheap in the US (real Subaru for $60 USD).

EDIT: oh wait are these the ones that go under the front bumper and cover the front bottom of the engine?

Tomaz

01-09-2009, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by clem24

What exactly does the skid plates cover? I've seen plates for the rear diff for Subies widely available, and those are cheap in the US (real Subaru for $60 USD).

EDIT: oh wait are these the ones that go under the front bumper and cover the front bottom of the engine?

I only worry about the ones that cover engine/drivetrain components (I have a FWD). One cover helps protect my entire front end.

That.Guy.S30

01-09-2009, 10:23 PM

ive never gotten stuck in any of my subarus. base model imprezas even with RE92's.
but ive grew smart and got winter tires.

googe

01-09-2009, 11:19 PM

Originally posted by benyl

Why don't you try it and report back.

I had to move my STI in my garage so I could take off my RE070 and put my winters on. It has 3 LSDs which all lock at any speed. Probably one of the best AWD systems out there.

I made the mistake of backing out on to my drive way a little so I didn't have go back and forth a bunch of times to get in the middle of the garage. There was less an inch or two of snow and it took 3 guys to get my car in the garage.

http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/bridgestone/bs_potenza_re70_ci2_l.jpg

But hey, you are a smart guy and have superstar skillz. I guess I don't know how to drive eh?

:rofl:

i think getting your STI stuck in the driveway in the winter is a rite of passage haha. every STI owner has tried that at least once! :D

"its AWD, even with summer tires I should be able to get it out of the driveway in this light snow......fail"

yeah, glue some hockey pucks to the bottom of your shoes and try to run on packed snow without losing any teeth...the physics are similar :rofl: