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Darkane
01-10-2009, 10:42 PM
Here, consider it my late Christmas present..

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/built_for_show&cr=

Nate Green is all natural I believe.

Stephen81
01-10-2009, 11:02 PM
Good read, thanks! :thumbsup: At 6'6 and 200lbs I can definitely relate..particularly trying to avoid the the "skinny fat guy" lol

Mibz
01-11-2009, 12:52 PM
I -am- the skinny fat guy :(

Canmorite
01-11-2009, 04:31 PM
Thanks for the article. I'm 6'1 and 160 lbs, and try to gain muscle but have NO idea how to construct a proper workout or food surrounding that workout...

ZorroAMG
01-11-2009, 07:54 PM
Darkdane, I just went out and bought Nate's book...thanks for the great post, his info seems solid and easy to follow for the type of gains I need!

jdmakkord
01-11-2009, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by ZorroAMG
Darkdane, I just went out and bought Nate's book...thanks for the great post, his info seems solid and easy to follow for the type of gains I need!

I just ordered it too :) I've gone from the skinny ripped guy to the skinny guy with a gut. Damn my metabolism slowing down. I needed motivation, maybe this will help some.

JfuckinC
01-11-2009, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by jdmakkord


I just ordered it too :) I've gone from the skinny ripped guy to the skinny guy with a gut. Damn my metabolism slowing down. I needed motivation, maybe this will help some.

story of my fucking life ahaha.. my body wants to be this fit huge guy, and im not helping. :thumbsdow
I have failed myself. good for this nate guy though, wicked results!!

Darkane
01-11-2009, 09:41 PM
Thought you guys might like that ;)

Yeah Nate is the man. He's actually a journalist first, then a trainer/lifter.

He has some shit on youtube about what women want, how to get it. Stuff like that, so he wrote a book about being physically able to attract women.

Darkane
01-11-2009, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by ZorroAMG
Darkdane, I just went out and bought Nate's book...thanks for the great post, his info seems solid and easy to follow for the type of gains I need!

Yes, his stuff is good for like 95% of the populous.

Trini
01-11-2009, 10:08 PM
wow good read!!

ryanallan
01-11-2009, 10:27 PM
great pitch, i bet he sells lots of books

Mibz
01-11-2009, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by Darkane
He's actually a journalist first, then a trainer/lifter. You can tell when comparing his writing to a lot of other bodybuilding journalists. It's refreshing.

slick2404
01-12-2009, 11:24 AM
good post, im gonna check this out!

ZorroAMG
01-12-2009, 04:10 PM
I have the book in my hand! Starting the read tonight...I am looking forward to this!!!

Thanks Darkdane!

AllGoNoShow
01-12-2009, 04:18 PM
Let us know what you think Mark!

89coupe
01-12-2009, 04:22 PM
I wonder if he mentions where he buys his steroids from or how much he takes.:rofl:

swak
01-12-2009, 06:19 PM
I bought it at Chapters today...
Very good read so far.

Im looking forward to this...
Thanks alot OP!!

blacklabel
01-12-2009, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by 89coupe
I wonder if he mentions where he buys his steroids from or how much he takes.:rofl:

Because everyone who has a decent build takes steroids right? :thumbsdow

ZorroAMG
01-12-2009, 06:40 PM
Just like everyone believes 89coupe spends hundreds on dinner every night.

89, don't be a cynic ;) My hopes are up for this book! lol

Hakkola
01-12-2009, 08:08 PM
Cool, I think I'll buy it.

Darkane
01-12-2009, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by 89coupe
I wonder if he mentions where he buys his steroids from or how much he takes.:rofl:

He's clean dude.

slick2404
01-12-2009, 10:00 PM
damn coles in TD didn't have this. I'll have to check out chapters tom after work.

Does anyone know if he outlines workout plans, and meal guides.

I'm motivated, been hitting the gym for only about two weeks but need solid guidance.

89coupe
01-12-2009, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by Darkane


He's clean dude.

Suuuure he is.

ZorroAMG
01-13-2009, 01:04 AM
89Coupe, I've seen your pics and you clearly won't benefit from this book or his ideas, so why keep fanning the flames?

Toma
01-13-2009, 01:46 AM
Originally posted by Darkane


He's clean dude.

Hahahaha... yeah.... rrrigghhht ;)

LOL

So the book is essentially... how to take 'roids, and pick up chicks who dig 'roid goofs?

Better line up for it... valuable information isnide lol.

l/l/rX
01-13-2009, 01:47 AM
I'm not too sure where I fit in. I guess I'm the small ripped guy. I want to get more ripped without my body getting any wider. possible?
Reason being I'm only 5'3, 123 lbs, if i sized out to be like nate, i would look sooo weird.

Toma
01-13-2009, 01:49 AM
Originally posted by ZorroAMG
89Coupe, I've seen your pics and you clearly won't benefit from this book or his ideas, so why keep fanning the flames?
His ideas?

Oh pray tell... what novel ideas is he communicating that have not been around since 1920?

89coupe
01-13-2009, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by ZorroAMG
89Coupe, I've seen your pics and you clearly won't benefit from this book or his ideas, so why keep fanning the flames?

Are you calling me fat, lol, how rude. :rofl:

Come on, you are a smart guy, you honestly believe the guy put on that kind of muscle mass naturally?

LOL.

The_Rural_Juror
01-13-2009, 11:10 AM
I see the potential for more Venn diagrams.

ZorroAMG
01-13-2009, 11:21 AM
No, lol I am NOT calling you fat!! Haha, I usually LIKE your posts, it's just that you are not the skinny guy trying to put on muscle like some on here. I don't doubt that there is a chance he used roids....there's ALWAYS a chance. What I like the book for is that a great mass building routine is already written out and the book is pretty entertaining....

Toma, stop being such a douche lol...you're another guy that isn't exactly in this category and his "ideas" aren't new or groundbreaking, they are just well worded. Relax! :)

89coupe
01-13-2009, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by ZorroAMG
No, lol I am NOT calling you fat!! Haha, I usually LIKE your posts, it's just that you are not the skinny guy trying to put on muscle like some on here. I don't doubt that there is a chance he used roids....there's ALWAYS a chance. What I like the book for is that a great mass building routine is already written out and the book is pretty entertaining....

Toma, stop being such a douche lol...you're another guy that isn't exactly in this category and his "ideas" aren't new or groundbreaking, they are just well worded. Relax! :)

Well if you are one of those 'skinny' guys trying to put on some muscle mass its pretty simple.

Increase your calorie intake (in a healthy way) and lift weights.

Keep your sets and reps low, your weight high.

If you happen to have a membership at World Health, I would be happy to meet up with you one day and give you a work out from hell that will make your muscles scream the next day.

All it takes is 45min.

ZorroAMG
01-13-2009, 12:07 PM
HAHA, I know all of that and I don't need the basic "never worked out, what do I do" plan. I just wanted a proper exercise regime for mass building, and frankly a bit of motivation from that book and its exercise plan. I'm not skinny, just thinner than I want to be and this is a good jump start imo.

Thanks though! :)

skyline19
01-13-2009, 12:30 PM
so any reviews from this book? it looks promising but i dont live anywhere near a chapters or coles so i have to order online.

I'm also on of those "skinny guys," at 6'4, with my weight ranging from 170-180. As Zorroamg stated i just need a mass building workout routine and some motivation haha.

89coupe
01-13-2009, 12:33 PM
Well I think all of you 'skinny' guys should post your picture up now and then after 6 months of reading this book and following its routine, post your 45lbs of muscle gain after.

LOL:rofl:

Dumbass17
01-13-2009, 01:32 PM
how's the book so far?
i like reading this sort of stuff and could use more info!



:clap:

ZorroAMG
01-13-2009, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by 89coupe
Well I think all of you 'skinny' guys should post your picture up now and then after 6 months of reading this book and following its routine, post your 45lbs of muscle gain after.

LOL:rofl:

Sure, just as soon as you post up your before pics and after you shed your 45 ;)

89coupe
01-13-2009, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by ZorroAMG


Sure, just as soon as you post up your before pics and after you shed your 45 ;)

LOL, I've been roughly 190-5lbs since I was 21.

lint
01-13-2009, 02:13 PM
On a similar note:

Interview with Glenn Pendlay
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/core_march_1.htm

Interview with Mark Rippetoe
http://www.npr.org/blogs/wwrd/2009/01/what_would_rob_do_to_lose_10_p.html

Review of Rippetoe's book Starting Strength on amazon
http://www.amazon.com/review/product/0976805421/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?_encoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

Coles notes: you want to build mass, do squats.

dimi
01-13-2009, 02:43 PM
Who cares... To be honest, the buddy looked MUCH better when he was what you guys call "skinny".

Wildcat
01-13-2009, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by 89coupe


Are you calling me fat, lol, how rude. :rofl:

Come on, you are a smart guy, you honestly believe the guy put on that kind of muscle mass naturally?

LOL.

I put on 40lbs within a year naturally. I was 18 and going into my first year uni, never stepped in a gym before that. I lived in res and had to subscribe to the cafeteria meal plan with consisted of the greasiest fast food imaginable. So that coupled with nothing else to do in res but study and go to the gym, the 40lbs came on easy and was almost all muscle. My parents barely recognized me when i came home that summer.

Granted those were my newbie gains, sounds like this author went through a similar experience. Most males generally gain 20lbs of muscle their first year of weight training. An experienced weightlifter can't just jump into this kids program and expect the same or even remotely similar results. The additional 50lbs I've put on since then spans 4 years of consistent training and dieting which came neither easily nor naturally.

89coupe
01-13-2009, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by Wildcat


I put on 40lbs within a year naturally. I was 18 and going into my first year uni, never stepped in a gym before that. I lived in res and had to subscribe to the cafeteria meal plan with consisted of the greasiest fast food imaginable. So that coupled with nothing else to do in res but study and go to the gym, the 40lbs came on easy and was almost all muscle. My parents barely recognized me when i came home that summer.

Granted those were my newbie gains, sounds like this author went through a similar experience. Most males generally gain 20lbs of muscle their first year of weight training. An experienced weightlifter can't just jump into this kids program and expect the same or even remotely similar results. The additional 50lbs I've put on since then spans 4 years of consistent training and dieting which came neither easily nor naturally.

Of course you can put on 40lbs when you are 18. So did I, actually it took me 2 years. Your body is still growing, your muscles are still developing.

Lets see a lean guy in his late 20's put on 40lbs of muscle in under a year naturally and still be lean. Not a chance in hell.

ZorroAMG
01-13-2009, 03:25 PM
Don't be such a debbie downer, 89!!

http://sidesalad.net/archives/DebbieDownerRachaelDratch.jpg

kutt3r
01-13-2009, 04:45 PM
1 word

Doggcrapp.

blacklabel
01-13-2009, 04:52 PM
I picked the book up. The way he explains things is really easy to follow. The workout plan he gives you is more of a fullbody workout 3days a week rather then arm day, back day, shoulder day etc.. which is what should be done in the first place.

There is a fall,winter,spring,summer program. that he puts together i like the book.

max_boost
01-13-2009, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by ZorroAMG
Don't be such a debbie downer, 89!!

http://sidesalad.net/archives/DebbieDownerRachaelDratch.jpg

Yo, you planning to put on 45lbs?

ZorroAMG
01-13-2009, 06:11 PM
No, not at all....just create a much better physique than I have now. I want to be about 180 lean @ 5'10 instead of 165 not so lean....

Toma
01-13-2009, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by lint
On a similar note:


Coles notes: you want to build mass, do squats.
Ahhh... another rip-off from a 40 + year old concept. Did they ate least reference the original aouthor?

bashir26
01-13-2009, 07:39 PM
I thought squats help you develop better leg muscles?

Oz-
01-13-2009, 07:45 PM
Some great books about principles of strength training and sports specific training you can check out:

Supertraining - Mel Siff

Science and Practice of Strength Training - Vladimir M. Zatsiorsky

Oz-
01-13-2009, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by bashir26
I thought squats help you develop better leg muscles?

Rule of thumb type thing, for you to gain 1 inch on your bicep you need to gain about 15 lbs of lean body mass. You won't be able to gain 15lbs of lean body mass by doing 5 variations of bicep curls of 3 sets for 10 reps each.

civic_rida
01-13-2009, 07:57 PM
:banghead: but i love arm day.

Darkane
01-13-2009, 09:49 PM
LOL! You guys are Funny. 89, Toma, I respect your posts and for the most part agree with them.

45pounds naturally is not impossible at all, in fact that after pic of Nate is Oct '08 at 23 years old. His skinny pic is him at 18 :rofl:

He made 9 pounds of muscle a year. So now what?

His book has ideas that have been around from the 20's sure.. BUT he wrote them in ways people can apply to their lifestyles.

His routines are not some miracle cure for the "skinny", but they work and are NOT the routines found in Flex, Muscle mag etc.

Side note, Squat people squat. I can attest to 10-15 pounds of lean mass = 1" on the arms.

RT16V
01-13-2009, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by Toma

Ahhh... another rip-off from a 40 + year old concept. Did they ate least reference the original aouthor?

I've read lots of Rippetoe interviews. He'll be the first to tell you his 'starting strength' routine is nothing new.

lint
01-13-2009, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by Toma

Ahhh... another rip-off from a 40 + year old concept. Did they ate least reference the original aouthor?

What original author are you referring to?

anschutz_92
01-13-2009, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by Darkane
Side note, Squat people squat. I can attest to 10-15 pounds of lean mass = 1" on the arms.

Leg press=squat in terms of effectiveness?

I definitely wouldn't say that 40lbs isn't impossible for a year. I've been putting on ~4-5lbs a month now since November since I've been working out/eating anything I can. I'm still skinny as hell but I'm looking to be in the 180 range by Christmas next year. I'm 18 BTW.

I'm starting to get some decent gains now and I'm really noticing an increase in strength so it's a great ego-boost and is really motivating. I've finally gotten to the point after 3 months that I can really push myself at the gym but I'm also finding that I go too hard at times and get sick (throw up), or I get these random swelling during workouts (I have a 3/4 inch lump 3" long on my left forearm on the inside near the wrist that hasn't went away since noon today. I doesn't hurt but I'm taking tomorrow off. I was doing tricep pulls at the time which is weird.)

A790
01-14-2009, 12:15 AM
Originally posted by anschutz_92


Leg press=squat in terms of effectiveness?

I definitely wouldn't say that 40lbs isn't impossible for a year. I've been putting on ~4-5lbs a month now since November since I've been working out/eating anything I can. I'm still skinny as hell but I'm looking to be in the 180 range by Christmas next year. I'm 18 BTW.

I'm starting to get some decent gains now and I'm really noticing an increase in strength so it's a great ego-boost and is really motivating. I've finally gotten to the point after 3 months that I can really push myself at the gym but I'm also finding that I go too hard at times and get sick (throw up), or I get these random swelling during workouts (I have a 3/4 inch lump 3" long on my left forearm on the inside near the wrist that hasn't went away since noon today. I doesn't hurt but I'm taking tomorrow off. I was doing tricep pulls at the time which is weird.)

Squat = squat. Leg press = leg press. There are no substitutions really.

kutt3r
01-14-2009, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by Oz-


Rule of thumb type thing, for you to gain 1 inch on your bicep you need to gain about 15 lbs of lean body mass. You won't be able to gain 15lbs of lean body mass by doing 5 variations of bicep curls of 3 sets for 10 reps each.

All lies...

Synthol ftw!
:nut:

kutt3r
01-14-2009, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by anschutz_92


Leg press=squat in terms of effectiveness?


Effective in what sense? What is the goal?

They both have their uses and reasons.
One exercise isolates, the other is a full body compound movement. They will both work your legs, but a squat will do so much more.

I would personally always choose squats over leg press if I have the choice, but that does not mean I would never use a leg press either...

Darkane
01-14-2009, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by anschutz_92


Leg press=squat in terms of effectiveness?



Lol nope sorry.

Why do people fear squats? Also having bad knees is not an excuse.

I got no meniscus in my knees and squat fine. Just don't go past parallel and sit "back" when squating. It takes a while to develop good form.

ZorroAMG
01-14-2009, 12:21 PM
I just did FALL Phase 1 of his workout routines last night and wow...the all encompassing soreness I feel this morning is amazing! The routines are crazy in terms of heart rate....much more so than I've ever experienced with weights before and although it will take some getting used to, I loved it.

It's funny how the haters on the book are all, or claim to be big/in good shape already when the book is not even FOR them....

Enjoy your gains from 168 different curls and tricep pulldowns, i'll stick to what works for me :)

Darkane
01-14-2009, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by ZorroAMG


Enjoy your gains from 168 different curls and tricep pulldowns, i'll stick to what works for me :)

Ding ding ding.

Hey Zorro, what does the book say for Post workout nutrition? Curious about that seeing he works for Testosterone Muscle (T-nation.com) and they strictly sell Biotest products. Wanna know if he threw a plug in there hah

zipdoa
01-14-2009, 12:49 PM
If you're worried about posture and form, do as I do (or Brady Quinn) and do front squats (bar across the shoulders/chest with your arms crossing in front to brace)

http://www.proten.com/images/Wt-Exercises/thighs-heels-elevated%20barbell%20front%20squat.gif

ZorroAMG
01-14-2009, 12:57 PM
See, that pic you posted is the only way I can do squats in terms of heels on a board or plates. I had a short Achilles's tendon when I was born, had an operation when I was 4 or 5 and have very limited mobility in my right leg because of it. If I squat to proper depth, my right heel comes off the ground and then I support it all with my ball and toes....this way posted above I can keep my heel active and supporting.

Is that going to severely affect my form?


Darkdane, yep he did do a small single plug for Surge by biotest. I see no harm in that, considering his relationship to the company...I'd do it too. Other than that single plug, everything is generic references...

Darkane
01-14-2009, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by zipdoa
If you're worried about posture and form, do as I do (or Brady Quinn) and do front squats (bar across the shoulders/chest with your arms crossing in front to brace)

http://www.proten.com/images/Wt-Exercises/thighs-heels-elevated%20barbell%20front%20squat.gif

Yes, that works.

However, you can't go as heavy and it's a little more quad dominant.

Posterior chain plays a big role too. Front squats are good however, but if doing them remove the little 1" support under the heels. It'll feel weird at first but as your hams/glutes (posterior chain) get stronger and neurologically adept to the movement it will feel more natural.

Darkane
01-14-2009, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by ZorroAMG
See, that pic you posted is the only way I can do squats in terms of heels on a board or plates. I had a short Achilles's tendon when I was born, had an operation when I was 4 or 5 and have very limited mobility in my right leg because of it. If I squat to proper depth, my right heel comes off the ground and then I support it all with my ball and toes....this way posted above I can keep my heel active and supporting.

Is that going to severely affect my form?

Hmm. In your case if having the support allows you to reach proper depth it out weights not having it doing half squats.

Try stretching that thing out. Put your toes up on a wall and try to drive through the ground (gently but feel the pull) with your heel. You'll feel it in the calf and it will pull a bit on the Achillies.

If you look online I'm sure you'll find site specific stretching. But limit your stretching to just the achillies. I've read pre-stretching can make you weaker. Always stretch post workout unless you have an ailment.

But a proper warm-up is even more important because of that.

ZorroAMG
01-14-2009, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by Darkane


Hmm. In your case if having the support allows you to reach proper depth it out weights not having it doing half squats.



Is there a typo there, I had a hard time following. Thanks!

Mibz
01-14-2009, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by Darkane
I got no meniscus in my knees and squat fine. Just don't go past parallel and sit "back" when squating. It takes a while to develop good form. I read that stopping at parallel was harder on your knees than going all the way down. Pretty sure it was Rippetoes. Is this wrong?

Darkane
01-14-2009, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by ZorroAMG


Is there a typo there, I had a hard time following. Thanks!

I don't think there's a typo but it wasn't to clear.

If you get proper depth using a plate under your heels do that.

It's better than no plate and not being able to go down to proper depth.

That makes better sense :)

Darkane
01-14-2009, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by Mibz
I read that stopping at parallel was harder on your knees than going all the way down. Pretty sure it was Rippetoes. Is this wrong?

Hmm, to me personally it feels harder on the knees going ATG (ass to grass).

Parallel works better for me. I use a box for depth and form too.

I think Rippetoe is against boxes too, not sure.

b_t
01-14-2009, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by civic_rida
:banghead: but i love arm day.

You shouldn't have an arm day.. that is a waste of time. Reorganize your workout a bit and split "arm day" into your other days.. I do biceps on back day, since your biceps are naturally recruited into rows, and then triceps on chest day (close grip bench press) and shoulder day (dips).

JordanLotoski
01-14-2009, 01:51 PM
I would love to see the diffence in what he looked like if he had a wife and 2 young kids:thumbsup: ...I have 0 time between my career, wife and kids...0

Oz-
01-14-2009, 01:54 PM
ZorroAMG - A few things that might help is to take off your shoes. Try squatting with only socks on, sounds strange but it might help correcting a bit of the imbalance.

For me when I was having problems with a specific weight on the squat and it would push me forward, it came down to having a weak posterior chain. I didn't have the strength to bring the weight down into the hole with quarter squatting or falling back. But for many people getting proper depth could just be as simple as programming what proper depth is into your brain, a box helps you do that. Use the step aerobic squares with a 45lb plate on top as a box if your gym doesn't have one.

As well another little change that helped me was bringing my feet in a bit for my stance and pointing my toes out a bit more. Just do what is comfortable and play around with it, I normally try these little changes during my warmups with bullshit weights.

Good informational video of squatting on a box, that can be used to take over to a free squat. Keep in mind that Louis Simmons is about westside monolift squatting (real wide), so adjust your technique to what suits you.

Ue_GrU4mhqc


Another good video of squatting, my stance is pretty close to this girl's.

4WCyepeTnQM


A bit of motivation for you skinny guys on a moneymaker lift. The girl in the video is about 150-160lbs depending on if she is getting ready for a figure competition or not, but she can deadlift and squat like nobodies business. It is possible to move good weight as a little guy.

PBzXo2e3Wy8&NR=1

Oz-
01-14-2009, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by Darkane


Hmm, to me personally it feels harder on the knees going ATG (ass to grass).

Parallel works better for me. I use a box for depth and form too.

I think Rippetoe is against boxes too, not sure.

Wide (westside style) stance is harder on the hips

Narrower stance is harder on the knees, notice this mainly when I do a widowmaker set of oly squats.

So it likely is your stance that makes your knees scream.

Toma
01-14-2009, 02:03 PM
I like reading OLD books from strongmen in the past... before steroids came on the scene somewhere in the 50's etc....

I've checked out workouts from men like Steve Reeves, John Grimek, Bob Peoples etc...

Even though claims of "steroid free" abound, I cautiously looked over workouts by Paul Anderson (where the concept of 'milk and squats' came from), and Dog Hepburn.

Sure would be fascinating to see what a true steroid/drug free lifter could accomplish today.... with "modern training methods"....

Though modern training methods?? What's that? Here is a 1950's recipe

# Warm-up - 1 x 20

# Squat - 5 x 5

# Bench press - 5 x 5

# Stiff-leg dead lift - 5 x 5

# Bent-over rowing - 5 x 5

# Press behind neck - 5 x 5

# Leg raises 1 x 25

However, Bob Peoples favored cycling squats for part of the year with deadlifts the other (first man to deadlift over 700#)

Toma
01-14-2009, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by ZorroAMG


Enjoy your gains from 168 different curls and tricep pulldowns, i'll stick to what works for me :)

LOL....

Probably true.... but this boy had one hell of a build and he did curls ;)

http://www.oldtimestrongman.com/images13/casey_viator.gif

Oz-
01-14-2009, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by Toma
I like reading OLD books from strongmen in the past... before steroids came on the scene somewhere in the 50's etc....

I've checked out workouts from men like Steve Reeves, John Grimek, Bob Peoples etc...

Even though claims of "steroid free" abound, I cautiously looked over workouts by Paul Anderson (where the concept of 'milk and squats' came from), and Dog Hepburn.

Sure would be fascinating to see what a true steroid/drug free lifter could accomplish today.... with "modern training methods"....

Though modern training methods?? What's that? Here is a 1950's recipe

# Warm-up - 1 x 20

# Squat - 5 x 5

# Bench press - 5 x 5

# Stiff-leg dead lift - 5 x 5

# Bent-over rowing - 5 x 5

# Press behind neck - 5 x 5

# Leg raises 1 x 25

However, Bob Peoples favored cycling squats for part of the year with deadlifts the other (first man to deadlift over 700#)

Periodization is a great training philosophy and pretty much every athlete follows it. As for cycling your deadlifts/squats, I do that all the time. About the only downfall for me is that I need a session or two to get my form back to where it feels comfortable.

Many of the training philosophies have evolved or been split from many years of research and analysis. A lot of what training you do should be geared to what your goals are. Go and take a read through - Science and Practice of Strength Training by Vladimir M. Zatsiorsky.

Couple reviews of the Science and Practice of Strength Training book.

"I can safely say that this is one of the best books out there. It contains legitimate research and case studies of ELITE world class athletes. You won't find a perfect program here, because no such thing exists... Rather, you will find principles that you can employ to your training and research results based on other world class athletes (most notably Olympic weightlifters). "

"This book is based on decades of methodically documented training of Russian athletes. Rather than use hypothesis of what training methods SHOULD work, found so commonly in U.S. training literature, what you'll read in this book is scrupulous analysis of what actually worked and what didn't work. There is no equivalent in the U.S. athletic training system; no one has tracked and scientifically analyzed the training of U.S. athletes like the Russians did with their centralized training programs."

Darkane
01-14-2009, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by MIWYFSHOT
I would love to see the diffence in what he looked like if he had a wife and 2 young kids:thumbsup: ...I have 0 time between my career, wife and kids...0

lol, fuck how many times have I heard this?

Dude, skip TV 3 nights a week, don't log onto Beyond 3 nights a week, hell take something out, tell you wife to use her dildo, 3 times a week.

You can get effective training in 30min a day x3/week.

Truth is if YOU really want it, YOU'LL make it happen.

I don't have kids, but I work 12 hour shifts with 2 hours commute. That's 14 hours away from home. How do I still manage to do cardio, prepare 6 meals a day, shower, shave, shit AND post on Beyond? Let alone all of lifes other things, I don't have a wife to cook or clean for me. Oh btw I'm still in bed 7 hours a night too.

b_t
01-14-2009, 03:29 PM
Its like that one article you posted around Christmas time... admitting your shortcomings doesn't make them okay.

Toma
01-14-2009, 04:44 PM
This all makes me wonder, how much MUSCLE a natural guy can put on per year.

I read in Mike Mentzer's old book that he figured putting on 5-6 pounds of muscle a year is phenomenal for someone that had already been training for at least a year.

Considering he wrote this in the midst of the steroid era... makes you wonder.

I've been working out most my life, but just sort of fucking around, never stuck to it for more then a few months at a time.

My "adult" body mass was probably complete at age 16-18. I had about 182 lean mass.

20 years later, if the tests are/were accurate, my lean mass is about 194.

So say I worked out half that time, that's about 0.5 pounds a year.... if I trained continuously... maybe a pound a year?

I am a firm believe that you hit your genetic disposition quickly and easily.... that is that point where you start working out, and you pack on the weight/finish growing. After that, I am convinced any gains will be VERY slow.

Hence my beef with these books.... they all lay claim to or imply huge gains, or revelaing some secret etc... but the reality is, it just ain't gonna happen.

KRyn
01-14-2009, 04:50 PM
I have a friend who put on about 35lbs of lean muscle mass in under two years. However this involved some of the most serious bulking I have ever seen in my life. It was amazing to see but I can only imagine how hard it was on his body. The first time he bulked he went from about 180lbs to 230lbs, the second time was from about 198lbs to 260lbs. He ended up at around 215-220lbs under 5%.

KRyn
01-14-2009, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by Darkane
Truth is if YOU really want it, YOU'LL make it happen.


So fucking true, it's easy to come up with excuses not to lift. Been there done that, I had to make some life style changes but in the end it was all worth it.

Toma
01-14-2009, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by KRyn
I have a friend who put on about 35lbs of lean muscle mass in under two years. However this involved some of the most serious bulking I have ever seen in my life. It was amazing to see but I can only imagine how hard it was on his body. The first time he bulked he went from about 180lbs to 230lbs, the second time was from about 198lbs to 260lbs. He ended up at around 215-220lbs under 5%.

How old was he? Was his Juice and GH supplement doctor supervised?

Toma
01-14-2009, 05:09 PM
In the 70's, here are the weights of the best of the best of the body builders and their weights.

From the 1977 M.r Olympia Weigh in:
Frank Zane - 187
Bill Grant - 184
Boyer Coe - 194
Ed Corney - 174

For 1981 Olympia, Danny Padilla weighed in at 176 pounds. He had trained for 10 years, with a starting weight of 130 pounds.

That is 4.5 pounds of muscle a year. He came in second I think in 1980, and fifth in 1981...

http://www.dannypadilla.com/photos/81olympia3.jpg

Toma
01-14-2009, 05:19 PM
Sergio Oliva.... competition weight... 210, off season 235. Genetic freak, AND steroid user...

Trained for years, defected from Cuba during the 1961 games (19 years of age, weightlifting team), Won the Olympia 1967, 68 and 69. and only 210 pounds. ??
Guess his wight calss in 1961?? 198 POUNDS!!

So, now... you have seen the best in the world of their time, on roids, and they could not top 5 pounds of muscle a year...

http://www.bodybuildbid.com/articles/mrolympia/imgs/oliva/oliva8.jpg

KRyn
01-14-2009, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by Toma


How old was he? Was his Juice and GH supplement doctor supervised?

Haha no steroids where involved, guy works harder in the gym than anyone I know. He just dirty bulked, he was getting at least 5000 calories a day. He bulked/cut over two years and saw amazing results. I have met few individuals in my life with the dedication and ability he possesses. He is currently training at Peak Power for O lifting.

Toma
01-14-2009, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by KRyn


Haha no steroids where involved,
bs :nut:

See above.

KRyn
01-14-2009, 05:35 PM
Believe what you want to. He has some of the biggest legs I have ever seen haha.

Darkane
01-14-2009, 05:42 PM
Toma I could show you natural guys that you'd automatically dismiss as users.

Someone who's Myostatin gene is dormant will make a FUCK load more gains than a regular person, Naturally.

I'm not saying Nate's is dormant, but he's not even that big compared to some Nattys.

Darkane
01-14-2009, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by Toma
In the 70's, here are the weights of the best of the best of the body builders and their weights.

From the 1977 M.r Olympia Weigh in:
Frank Zane - 187
Bill Grant - 184
Boyer Coe - 194
Ed Corney - 174

For 1981 Olympia, Danny Padilla weighed in at 176 pounds. He had trained for 10 years, with a starting weight of 130 pounds.

That is 4.5 pounds of muscle a year. He came in second I think in 1980, and fifth in 1981...

http://www.dannypadilla.com/photos/81olympia3.jpg

Don't use the Golden age bodybuilders for mass examples. They built themselves for symmetrical purposes.

FYI, before Dexter Jackson just won Olympia he put on 5 pounds in a year at 230. He competed at 235 and won.

These guys have to take 10-16 weeks a year just for contest prep where they can't bulk. Keep that in mind.

Toma
01-14-2009, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by Darkane

.... but he's not even that big compared to some Nattys.

But there inlies the problem. Natty's "lie". Arnold even denied it for years lol....

I just showed you the best of the best during the early hayday of testosterone abuse, and you are telling me you know bigger guys that a re for sure natural?

Not a fucking chance in hell.... aside form the genetic freaks with the defective myostatin gene.

But I am unaware of any bodybuilders found to possess this abnormality.... I think Flex Wheeler was rumoured to be deficient.... but.... his Kidneys Failed, so was it that. or MASSIVE roid abuse?

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/07_01/whippetDM1207_468x669.jpg

kutt3r
01-14-2009, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by KRyn


He is currently training at Peak Power for O lifting.

Does he like it there?
Looking to check out there O lifting course & possibly vo2max testing.

JNeil
01-14-2009, 05:56 PM
Just finished the book and completed the first day of the fall workout. Definitely had my heart going faster than it usually does at the gym and I was sweating way more as well.

As far as curls go, Nate states MULTIPLE times in the book that they are important, but for putting the finishing touches on a body builders figure. Not building the muscle up from nothing. This book is for people who are not necessarily in shape or don't ALREADY have a solid routine.



P.S. I'm 5'10" and 152lbs, im going to follow Nates plan and see how it goes. Ill post with new results in a few weeks or months.

Toma
01-14-2009, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by Darkane


Don't use the Golden age bodybuilders for mass examples. They built themselves for symmetrical purposes.

FYI, before Dexter Jackson just won Olympia he put on 5 pounds in a year at 230. He competed at 235 and won.

These guys have to take 10-16 weeks a year just for contest prep where they can't bulk. Keep that in mind.

Yeah.... ah huh.... just illustrates my example perfectly. Best of the best on old shcoll drugs could gain 5 pouds per year.

I used them as examples , because in that era, the drugs were there, just no where near as refined.

Just illustrating that natural guys should not get disillusioned wiht books printed to make money and sell.

Today.... modern bodybuilders spend upwards of $50,000 for 3 months of steroid and GH treatments. Yes, they make bigger gains.

Wildcat
01-14-2009, 05:57 PM
Since everyone is posting there favorite BB's, Here's the biggest freak of all time... Dorian Yates.

http://www.bgtrener.com/kazakapic/statia/03_dorian_yates.jpg

http://images.hugi.is/heilsa/122260.jpg

and the greatest bodybuilder never to win an olympia title... Flex Wheeler;

http://es.fitness.com/forum/attachments/fotos/1367d1142640005-flex-wheeler-wheeler016rg.jpg

Darkane
01-14-2009, 06:05 PM
Toma I was talking about Nate not being that big compared to some Naturals. I never said once a Natural is bigger than the Golden Era boys.

Well I didn't want to bring this example out, but here.

Rob Hope TESTED Natural in Bodybuilding AND powerlifting.

D8hbzsim1ZE

Toma
01-14-2009, 06:15 PM
Not gonna argue there.. I dunno anything about him, his natural adult size, how long he has been training etc.

Keep in mind, depending on the steroid, some are only detectabe for days after use, others for weeks, others for months.... leaving a lot of gap time.

A guy like say.... you, can juice up with the best shit on the planet.... pack on some muscle to get past your genetic limitations, then train naturally for a year or two, then compete all natural, and no test would be the wiser.

Some of the natural competitors are tiny, but fuck me, are they ever shredded.

KRyn
01-14-2009, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by kutt3r


Does he like it there?
Looking to check out there O lifting course & possibly vo2max testing.


He loves it there a lot. The trainers seem to be amazing from what he says. However it does cost some serious coin, during the summer I think he was paying 700$ a month.

Darkane
01-14-2009, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by Toma
Not gonna argue there.. I dunno anything about him, his natural adult size, how long he has been training etc.

Keep in mind, depending on the steroid, some are only detectabe for days after use, others for weeks, others for months.... leaving a lot of gap time.

A guy like say.... you, can juice up with the best shit on the planet.... pack on some muscle to get past your genetic limitations, then train naturally for a year or two, then compete all natural, and no test would be the wiser.

Some of the natural competitors are tiny, but fuck me, are they ever shredded.

Yes exactly. To many naturals do just that.

But I chose this example (Rob) because in between shows he powerlifts and is tested.

Wildcat
01-14-2009, 07:39 PM
Enough with the natural vs. roid talk already, lol. There's nothing 'natural' about bodybuilding to begin with. The natural BB circuit is a sham. It consists of a bunch of older guys who didn't have what it takes to go pro in their younger days and got to where they are by drugs. Or younger guys taking undetectable substances or cycling their drugs during detection periods. Or yes maybe they don't take any steroids at all.

Regardless, there's nothing natural about force feeding yourself 6 times a day, feeding your body excess amounts of supplements and weight training 20hrs a week. Find me a guy who eats three meals a day and goes to the gym 4hrs a week and throw him on stage; that's a natural bodybuilder.

At least with pro bodybuilding everything is on front street and there's no speculation as to the integrity of the competition. On the pro stage everyone is doing everything that is possible to have an edge over the competition, so at least you know everyone is in the same boat. Competing in a non-tested event without the use of anabolic steroids is like trying to play hockey without skates.

Darkane
01-14-2009, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by Wildcat
Enough with the natural vs. roid talk already, lol. There's nothing 'natural' about bodybuilding to begin with. The natural BB circuit is a sham. It consists of a bunch of older guys who didn't have what it takes to go pro in their younger days and got to where they are by drugs. Or younger guys taking undetectable substances or cycling their drugs during detection periods. Or yes maybe they don't take any steroids at all.

Regardless, there's nothing natural about force feeding yourself 6 times a day, feeding your body excess amounts of supplements and weight training 20hrs a week. Find me a guy who eats three meals a day and goes to the gym 4hrs a week and throw him on stage; that's a natural bodybuilder.

At least with pro bodybuilding everything is on front street and there's no speculation as to the integrity of the competition. On the pro stage everyone is doing everything that is possible to have an edge over the competition, so at least you know everyone is in the same boat. Competing in a non-tested event without the use of anabolic steroids is like trying to play hockey without skates.

Acutally.. That's a well put post :D