Calgary Transit crackdown on deadbeats

[urban.one]

Date: Tue Apr 21 15:16:53 2009
Subject: Peace Officers Conducting Enhanced Fare Checks
From: Calgary Transit Public Information

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CITYBEAT - CITY OF CALGARY PRESS RELEASE
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Calgary Transit Peace Officers will be conducting an
increased number of fare compliance checks for the weeks of
April 19 through May 02, 2008. While Calgary Transit Peace
Officers regularly check passengers for proof of payment,
particular emphasis will be targeted on fare compliance
during this time period.

The fine for fare evasion is $150.00 and is issued under the
Transit Bylaw. Last year Calgary Transit Peace Officers
issued 6,217 summonses for fare evasion offences.


-30-

Public Email Contact:

[email protected]

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[Redlyne_mr2]

I remember running from those officers all the time when I was young punk ass, they were the meanest people ever lol.

[lint]

Their numbers don't make sense.

http://calgarytransit.com/html/statistics.html

Annual Ridership 2008 - 95.3 mil
Evasion Rate in 2008 - 1.9%

95.3 mil x 1.9% = 1810700

But they only wrote 6,217 summonses? So 1804483 people didn't get caught, but the city knew they were evading?

[chkolny541]

Originally posted by lint
Their numbers don't make sense.

http://calgarytransit.com/html/statistics.html

Annual Ridership 2008 - 95.3 mil
Evasion Rate in 2008 - 1.9%

95.3 mil x 1.9% = 1810700

But they only wrote 6,217 summonses? So 1804483 people didn't get caught, but the city knew they were evading?

i have to quote this for awesomeness, and so you dont edit when you realize you look like an idiot

by your SAME logic your saying that calgary has a population of 95.3 million.

think about it, ill let you solve this one yourself

[frinkprof]

^These numbers are estimates, based on sample passenger counts and warnings/tickets issued during fare enforcement efforts. Each rider is not counted each time they board a train, nor do they have to provide proof of payment each time. The City didn't "know" there were that many instances of fare evasion, they estimated that to be the case.

[AE92_TreunoSC]

if 300,000 people use it 5 times a week x 52....

or 150,000 twice a day etc...

[lint]

Originally posted by chkolny541


i have to quote this for awesomeness, and so you dont edit when you realize you look like an idiot

by your SAME logic your saying that calgary has a population of 95.3 million.

think about it, ill let you solve this one yourself

Did you click on the link? Transit ridership in 2008 was 95.3 mil trips. Did I say each person in Calgary only took 1 trip on transit for the year of 2008? To restate, since you think you're a big shot, 95.3 mil trips. To further add to your inability to comprehend statistics, CT lists the Population Served = 1,042,892, Annual Trips per Capita = 91.4. Therefore 1,042,892 x 91.4 =~ 95.3 mil trips.

Would you like me to draw you a picture?

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by chkolny541


i have to quote this for awesomeness, and so you dont edit when you realize you look like an idiot

by your SAME logic your saying that calgary has a population of 95.3 million.

think about it, ill let you solve this one yourself


Quote this for more awesomness.

Since they didn't check everyone, 1.9% come from a smaller sample.

Say they check 330000 people and 6200 got summons = 1.9%


Then you apply 1.9% to 95.3M = 1.8M unpaid trips or city got rip off about $4.5M.

So now they can ask for say $2M budget in peace officers or equipments to recover what's lost.

[lint]

Originally posted by frinkprof
^These numbers are estimates, based on sample passenger counts and warnings/tickets issued during fare enforcement efforts. Each rider is not counted each time they board a train, nor do they have to provide proof of payment each time. The City didn't "know" there were that many instances of fare evasion, they estimated that to be the case.

Same logic. Of the 1.81 mil people that the city estimates evaded fares in 2008, they only ticketed 6217. That's 1.8 mil trips of lost revenue.

[Cos]

Originally posted by Xtrema



Quote this for more awesomness.

Since they didn't check everyone, 1.9% come from a smaller sample.

Say they check 330000 people and 6200 got summons = 1.9%


Then you apply 1.9% to 95.3M = 1.8M unpaid trips or city got rip off about $4.5M.

So now they can ask for say $2M budget in peace officers or equipments to recover what's lost.

knew someone would get it right at some point.

[Shogged]

what do you expect when the cities idea of a decent ticketing machine only takes cash and doesn't give change? Not to mention you can walk right onto the platform without any kind of barrier in your way, and i'd like to see a peace office get to me on the train during rush hour. In the years of taking transit i've paid maybe a dozen times, I consider my taxes enough of a fare.

They're never really going to get rid of deadbeats without getting rid of the free fare zone downtown though. Keep trying Calgary Transit!

[msommers]

Wow right when all the student's U-passes expire, what a fucking surprise.

[403ep3]

Originally posted by chkolny541


i have to quote this for awesomeness, and so you dont edit when you realize you look like an idiot

by your SAME logic your saying that calgary has a population of 95.3 million.

think about it, ill let you solve this one yourself

Quoted for being such awseomeness, and so you dont edit when you realize you look like an idiot

Haha fail

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Shogged
what do you expect when the cities idea of a decent ticketing machine only takes cash and doesn't give change? Not to mention you can walk right onto the platform without any kind of barrier in your way, and i'd like to see a peace office get to me on the train during rush hour. In the years of taking transit i've paid maybe a dozen times, I consider my taxes enough of a fare.

They're never really going to get rid of deadbeats without getting rid of the free fare zone downtown though. Keep trying Calgary Transit!

It's all about user experience. But ridership for CT has always been small that theoretical loss isn't big enough to take actions or to ruin the experience.

Any new barrier system would cost $$$ to purchase and maintain. I doubt those $4.5M in loss revenue will cover it.

And most barrier system can be defeated. I have seen people jumping over styles at metro stations all over the world.

[pinoyhero]

Love the math war, haha

Really though, I'm all for stepping this up. Logically, outside of morality, theres no reason to pay.

If every 200 times to ride for free you get caught and pay a $150 fine you're way better off never paying. Need to up the tickets to disincent people to freeload.

[TomcoPDR]

Originally posted by pinoyhero
Love the math war, haha

Really though, I'm all for stepping this up. Logically, outside of morality, theres no reason to pay.

If every 200 times to ride for free you get caught and pay a $150 fine you're way better off never paying. Need to up the tickets to disincent people to freeload.

QFT, I know people who understand this theory and just take their chances... a lot of times (i.e. from high school to adult working life) they're still ahead.

[CMW403]

iv never bought a transit ticket in my life. iv only ever been approached once iand i talked him out of giving me a ticket haha

[Jim Rome99]

I don't know why they don't just have people checking your tickets when you get off the train at the end of the line. They should just stand right at the doors and ask people to file by whilst displaying their tickets.

[gatorade]

Originally posted by chkolny541


i have to quote this for awesomeness, and so you dont edit when you realize you look like an idiot

by your SAME logic your saying that calgary has a population of 95.3 million.

think about it, ill let you solve this one yourself

lol math bashing failure

[Canmorite]

Originally posted by msommers
Wow right when all the student's U-passes expire, what a fucking surprise.

Pretty much.

[frinkprof]

Originally posted by Jim Rome99
I don't know why they don't just have people checking your tickets when you get off the train at the end of the line. They should just stand right at the doors and ask people to file by whilst displaying their tickets. By "end of line" I'm not sure if you mean the last station on every line, or all stations at which people get off the train, i.e. every station not in the free fare zone. In either case, it is too expensive to do this compared to both the revenue it would generate, and the enforcement budget.

If you do mean each of Dalhousie (soon Crowfoot), Somerset-Bridlewood, and McKnight-Westwinds, putting such resources and services into just 3 stations would cause some to stop evading, while other evaders would likely just adapt and use different stations. Also, people who use other stations would likely demand such services at their stations. This type of enforcement is currently provided periodically, whereby peace officers will stand on a platform and check tickets of people getting of a train that comes in, rather than going on the train istelf.

I would say that peak-time fare enforcement should be done more, just enough that the average peak-time commuter feels they may be checked 8 or 9 times a year, making it more economical to buy passes. Keep up with off-peak encorcement too of course.

[7thgenvic]

Mehh I didn't pay in Europe, I'm not paying in Calgary. The ticket machines are USELESS and fares are too expensive. By the time I get caught it will justify paying the 150 bux.

[rumeo]

If they just keep cops at Marlborough,Rundle,Whitehorn...they will accumilate enough revenue to make up for the rest.

[Jim Rome99]

I get on the c-train at 6:30am and get back on at 3:20pm. I ride it from downtown to the end of the line and I think I've been checked around three times in ten years.

Why not implement a machine where you have to scan you pass or ticket in order to get through a door or something?

[lint]

Originally posted by Jim Rome99
I get on the c-train at 6:30am and get back on at 3:20pm. I ride it from downtown to the end of the line and I think I've been checked around three times in ten years.

Why not implement a machine where you have to scan you pass or ticket in order to get through a door or something?

By CT thinking, it's easier to come up with ways to collect new fees (pay park and ride) to make up revenue deficits than it is to plug up the holes in their flawed system and collect the money from fare evaders.

[frinkprof]

Originally posted by Jim Rome99
I get on the c-train at 6:30am and get back on at 3:20pm. I ride it from downtown to the end of the line and I think I've been checked around three times in ten years.

Why not implement a machine where you have to scan you pass or ticket in order to get through a door or something? Too expensive, especially when compared to the revenue it would generate, people would still find ways to evade, and it isn't compatable with the entire system (free fare zone, especially after the 7th Ave. Refurbishment project).

[msommers]

Originally posted by rumeo
If they just keep cops at Marlborough,Rundle,Whitehorn...they will accumilate enough revenue to make up for the rest.

People going into the core are most guilty of this man, which I'm sure by your understanding, aren't people that live in those areas.

[Jim Rome99]

The busiest stations are three end of the line ones. How much would it cost to have ONE person sit there behind a desk right before the stairs and check people as they go by? Or just have a turnstile. They have this in many major cities. Why not Calgary? It can't be that expensive. I'm pissed because now I'm paying three bucks a day to park and all of my co-workers boast about not paying for tickets for years and getting away with it.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Jim Rome99
The busiest stations are three end of the line ones. How much would it cost to have ONE person sit there behind a desk right before the stairs and check people as they go by? Or just have a turnstile. They have this in many major cities. Why not Calgary? It can't be that expensive. I'm pissed because now I'm paying three bucks a day to park and all of my co-workers boast about not paying for tickets for years and getting away with it.

If it's simple, it's done already.

1) Bus and CT share the same fare system. I can't imagine change one without the other.

2) Ticket is a piece of paper. If you want to go magnetic stripe or smart card, it will be big $$$$

3) As mention before, free fare zone. You can't really have it if you try to make people pay. Are you trying to implement ticket check on the way into station or out of station?

4) With outdoor stations and extreme weather, how well will these ticket/turnstile work?

Really, it's only $4M/year of saving. It'll probably take multiple years of that to pay to the ticket system.

[frinkprof]

Originally posted by Jim Rome99
The busiest stations are three end of the line ones. How much would it cost to have ONE person sit there behind a desk right before the stairs and check people as they go by? Or just have a turnstile. They have this in many major cities. Why not Calgary? It can't be that expensive. I'm pissed because now I'm paying three bucks a day to park and all of my co-workers boast about not paying for tickets for years and getting away with it. Actually, Anderson Station is busier than Somerset-Bridlewood Station, and Marlborough is very nearly as busy as Whithorn (the data predates McKnight-Westwinds Station, but the numbers today are likely as comparative).

Ridership statistics, by station: http://www.calgarytransit.com/html/lrt_ridership.html

Again, I would speculate that having even one person at each of these three stations checking fares would be cost prohibitive. The LRT operates 20-22 hours a day. Even if they are only there from 6AM-6PM, a body present full time doesn't come cheap.

Even if it were economical to have a person at each of these three stations, they wouldn't catch anyone after the first week as a few people who were evading would buy a pass/ticket, and the rest would just start using the next station. Also, residents near, and people who use, say Heritage and Southland stations would demand that their station also have a person present at the same times that the end-of-line ones would.

[dino_martini]

I remeber a few weeks ago I got off the train at Chinook station. And they had the officers standing at the entrance to each 'Fare Paid Zone' checking for tickets...

sneaky shit man.

[szw]

Originally posted by lint
Their numbers don't make sense.

http://calgarytransit.com/html/statistics.html

Annual Ridership 2008 - 95.3 mil
Evasion Rate in 2008 - 1.9%

95.3 mil x 1.9% = 1810700

But they only wrote 6,217 summonses? So 1804483 people didn't get caught, but the city knew they were evading?
Do you know how polling works?



Originally posted by lint


Same logic. Of the 1.81 mil people that the city estimates evaded fares in 2008, they only ticketed 6217. That's 1.8 mil trips of lost revenue.

You still don't get it...

[nodoubtt]

when i saw the thread title for a second i thought it meant calgary transit was cracking down on crime and dangerous people on the ctrain, but then i realized that the city doesnt give two shits about that and greed clearly comes first for them rather than the safety of their passengers. shaking my god damn mother fucking head

[sputnik]

Originally posted by lint
Their numbers don't make sense.

http://calgarytransit.com/html/statistics.html

Annual Ridership 2008 - 95.3 mil
Evasion Rate in 2008 - 1.9%

95.3 mil x 1.9% = 1810700

But they only wrote 6,217 summonses? So 1804483 people didn't get caught, but the city knew they were evading?

You do realize that you aren't checked for your ticket/pass every time you ride the train right?

[lint]

Originally posted by szw

Do you know how polling works?

You still don't get it...

Holy shit. Do you people not understand what data analysis is? Let's recap:

- 95300000 total transit rides in 2008. NOT how many people paid.
- 1.9% fare evaders, therefore 1810700 fare evaders, people who rode transit and never paid.

If 1.8 mil people rode transit and never paid, that means 1.8 mil transit rides of lost revenue. Assuming average revenue / trip = $2.00 ($2.50 for adults, $1.75 for youth, and assuming more youth than adults to make the cals easier) that means CT lost $3.6 mil in 2008 alone. Revenue that CT would have if the system was designed so that riders HAD to pay to ride.


Originally posted by sputnik


You do realize that you aren't checked for your ticket/pass every time you ride the train right?

No shit, captain obvious. The point is to demonstrate the lost revenue BECAUSE riders are NOT checked for valid proof of payment every time they ride.

[Mr_ET]

The whole paying out of goodwill system is crap in a city of this size if you ask me.

I've taken public transit in many cities and nowhere would you be able to get close to a plateform without having paid to be on it prior to that.

The fee is also retardedly low. I have been living in Calgary for 5 years and have taken the ctrain just about every work day since.

I have been checked twice and that was when I wasn't riding during rush hour. Someone who rides between 7:30-8:30 and 3:30 to 4:30 will likely never be checked.

Using this logic I could go on for months and months without paying my $83 dollar monthly pass. The I'd get caught and would pay the $150. I would still most likely come out way ahead since the fee isn't even the price of 2 monthly passes...

I am one of the morons who has been paying for a pass the whole time because it's the "right" thing to do but I know of many people that have confessed to not paying on a daily basis...

[D'z Nutz]

So you guys who don't pay, you see the city transit as something that's entitled to you and not a service? I suppose you're the same type of people who constantly park at Impark lots for free and complain when you get ticketed :dunno:

I hope you freeloaders aren't the ones hogging up all the seats and occupancy while people like me who pay are either stuck standing in the crowded aisles or worse, have to miss trains because they're too full of commuters.

Quite frankly, I'm glad they're "cracking down" on freeloaders and think it's something they should have been doing more frequently a long time ago.

[G-ZUS]

I always laugh when I see people getting their tickets :rofl: . Up-Ass FTW, 60 or 80 bucks for a whole semester

[dexlargo]

So has anyone actually seen any enforcement yet in this period (Since April 19)?

If so, where and when? Were they doing it at the station doors or on the train cars?

I wonder if they're targeting specific areas or times. Or if they're actually increasing enforcement at all.

[em2ab]

Originally posted by Jim Rome99
I don't know why they don't just have people checking your tickets when you get off the train at the end of the line. They should just stand right at the doors and ask people to file by whilst displaying their tickets.
There's an easier way. The transit in New York has a guy on the train that comes around and asks every single person on the train for their ticket between 2 single stops. And you don't even need a ticket before getting on, you can buy one right from this guy for 10% more than the machine price. It's genius.

[masoncgy]

Of course, if Calgary Transit would have been wise to begin with they would have implemented a 'paid fare validation' type system (turnstiles, etc) at the C-Train stations from the get-go, instead of looking back at all of the lost revenue and taking a reactive approach to the problem, such as this.

There wouldn't be a problem today if this was done correctly in the first place. People wouldn't have become comfortable with the habit of riding for free if the opportunity was never there.

Wouldn't mind knowing how much revenue has been lost over the many years the C-Train has been in service... I bet it's an astounding figure and would have paid for the extra cost of turnstiles at every station many times over. Perhaps parking would still be free to boot... ;)

[codetrap]

I like the San Francisco model.. it was pretty easy to deal with, and almost impossible to skip fares on..

http://www.bart.gov/tickets/index.aspx

[Alterac]

This morning the transit cops came on my train, and busted 4 people as soon as they got on.. haha

Chumps.

[szw]

Originally posted by lint


Holy shit. Do you people not understand what data analysis is? Let's recap:

- 95300000 total transit rides in 2008. NOT how many people paid.
- 1.9% fare evaders, therefore 1810700 fare evaders, people who rode transit and never paid.

If 1.8 mil people rode transit and never paid, that means 1.8 mil transit rides of lost revenue. Assuming average revenue / trip = $2.00 ($2.50 for adults, $1.75 for youth, and assuming more youth than adults to make the cals easier) that means CT lost $3.6 mil in 2008 alone. Revenue that CT would have if the system was designed so that riders HAD to pay to ride.




So basically the point of THIS post was pointing out how much lost revenue transit service is experiencing due to people skipping out on fares. Nothign wrong with that but your original post has NOTHING to do with that.


Originally posted by lint
Their numbers don't make sense.

http://calgarytransit.com/html/statistics.html

Annual Ridership 2008 - 95.3 mil
Evasion Rate in 2008 - 1.9%

95.3 mil x 1.9% = 1810700

But they only wrote 6,217 summonses? So 1804483 people didn't get caught, but the city knew they were evading?

Start with the first line...how does that not make sense?

[lint]

Originally posted by szw


So basically the point of THIS post was pointing out how much lost revenue transit service is experiencing due to people skipping out on fares. Nothign wrong with that but your original post has NOTHING to do with that.

Start with the first line...how does that not make sense?

How does it make sense for Calgary Transit to KNOWINGLY let 1.8 million people ride the train for free? And then complain that they need more money in user fees for security? They only ticketed 0.34% of fare evaders in 2008. Averaging it out, that's 261K rides each day and of those CT is able to catch 17.03 people. What the fuck do CT bylaw officers do everyday?

But take that sentence literally if you want.

[dexlargo]

Originally posted by lint
What the fuck do CT bylaw officers do everyday? At a guess:

Remove drunks from transit property and associated paperwork; Respond to fighting complaints on transit property and associated paperwork; Make arrests for criminal offences (assault, vandalism, etc.) and turn arrestees over to CPS, and associated paperwork; Establish a presence to deter unwanted activity on transit property, and associated paperwork; etc.

I think that the current priority list (and I'm guessing) is to:

1) Make people feel safe riding Calgary Transit
2) Actually make people safe riding Calgary Transit
3) Protect Transit property
4) Enforce fares

In that order.

And they don't have very many officers - I can't remember how many they had, but I recall that the number before the most recent hires was shockingly small. The current number is about 70 officers total, but remember, they have 3 shifts to cover, 7 days a week, so there's probably only about WAG:10-15 officers on at any particular time.

[ipeefreely]

Originally posted by Shogged
.... In the years of taking transit i've paid maybe a dozen times, I consider my taxes enough of a fare.


Originally posted by pinoyhero
Really though, I'm all for stepping this up. Logically, outside of morality, theres no reason to pay.

If every 200 times to ride for free you get caught and pay a $150 fine you're way better off never paying. Need to up the tickets to disincent people to freeload.

Originally posted by TomcoPDR
....QFT, I know people who understand this theory and just take their chances... a lot of times (i.e. from high school to adult working life) they're still ahead.

Originally posted by CMW403
iv never bought a transit ticket in my life. iv only ever been approached once iand i talked him out of giving me a ticket haha

Originally posted by 7thgenvic
Mehh I didn't pay in Europe, I'm not paying in Calgary. The ticket machines are USELESS and fares are too expensive. By the time I get caught it will justify paying the 150 bux.

So I assume you guys don't pay gasoline either! :dunno: It's pretty easy to just drive off and never be caught... think of all the money you could save in a year!:nut:

[frinkprof]

Originally posted by dexlargo
And they don't have very many officers - I can't remember how many they had, but I recall that the number before the most recent hires was shockingly small. The current number is about 70 officers total, but remember, they have 3 shifts to cover, 7 days a week, so there's probably only about WAG:10-15 officers on at any particular time. Yes. Calgary Transit is budgetted a certain number of officers and that is what they have to work with. In fact, before the last municipal budget was approved, a number of officers that were in the proposed budget were cut, along with some other items in the budget, in order to save money. I don't have the exact number, but I could probably dig it up if someone asks. The number of officers did increase, but not by as much as was originally proposed. With the number of officers they have to work with, the size of the system, the hours of service, and other duties needed to be performed, fare enforcement can only be done so much.

--------------------

I won't address all posts one-by-one but some points that hopefully covers some common themes:

1. I believe lint has been misinterpreted, including by myself at first. He (?) understands that the numbers are estimates based on sample counts and periodic fare enforcement efforts. What "doesn't make sense" to him is the discrepency between having a known proportion of fare evasion, and the efforts put into catching these people, or rather encouraging them to purchase fare. This will be addressed in point 3 below.

2. Turnstiles and other such devices would, on a functional basis only, probably get fare evasion numbers down. However, people still evade fare on systems that use turnstiles. They have to be a little more inventive about it, but still do. On an implementation basis, the way many stations are designed in Calgary doesn't lend itself to putting in turnstiles. Think of walk-on centre-load stations such as McKnight-Westwinds and Somerset-Bridlewood, or staggered side-load platforms like Shawnessy Station and the future Martindale Station. Turnstiles might be able to be installed, but at the expense of pedestrian and train flow, and in some cases safety. Turnstiles can also not replace officers. There needs to be a human presence for safety and security reasons. This is of course without mentioning the capital cost of installation, and the operational costs of this equipment. This brings me to the third point.

3. Quite simply, the marginal cost of increased fare enforcement, whatever form it takes, is high compared to the cost that fare evaders place on the system, which is low. Could there be more checks? Absolutely, and I think it could be done at a steadier clip, say by 50% more or so. However, at one point some people will be dissuaded from evading fare and the rest will just do so anyway, and the costs of doing more enforcement just won't see much return.