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boarderfatty
05-08-2009, 09:45 AM
I will start off that I am 21 turning 22 and a full time student at the University of Alberta. I received my license on my 16th birthday and don’t have a single speeding ticket, or other driving infraction on my record. I have been insured and driving since I have had my license. I have worked up to 3 jobs at a time on top of school to afford my STi. A car that has not only seen my money, but my labor, blood, sweat, and tears that have gone into maintaining and modifying my car.

My Story starts on the morning of Monday April 13th 2009 when I awoke to go to work at 5am and noticed that my car had disappeared. My heart instantly sank into my stomach. The first thing that came to mind was call 9-1-1. I was put through to the local St. Albert RCMP station where they told me I was to come down to the police station to fill out a police report. I was a little shocked to find that they weren’t interested in even seeing the crime scene, but I figured that they were the professionals and knew what was best. After filling out the report it registered that I should call my insurance company and inform them of the theft. I am insured with TD Meloche Monnex and have been since I have been driving, as well as the rest of my family since they offer lower rates and supposed better coverage since they will only insure certain professional groups, university alumni, and university students. I called their 24hr line and gave them the necessary details to start the report, and they said that a regular hour’s adjustor would call me later in the morning with updates and information, so I went to work. On Wednesday the 14th I had still not received any contact from my insurance company, so I called them. They informed me that they had no record of a claim or theft being created under my name. So I again went through the details that I had available at the time, and they informed me that a total loss adjustor would call me back with further details. By Friday with still no contact, I figured out which adjustor was assigned to my case, and I contacted them. I gave them all possible details, emailed them a description of my car accompanied with pictures, as well as receipt for approximately $5000 in modifications that I had available. I have had another $5-7000 invested in modifications and labor which I had no receipts for or paid for by cash.

I figured I would leave them alone and let them do their job efficiently versus being hindered by my harassment. On Thursday the 29th I had still yet to hear from them, but they had previously mentioned that they like to put together pay outs about 10 business days after the theft, so I called them again. My adjustor informed me that they had come up with a price that was awaiting managerial approval, but I should be happy with it since she was expecting $10,000 less. She also mentioned to me that the modifications I had done would not be covered under the $5000 I had coverage for since in their opinion modifications devalued my car. The $800 brake upgrade was $200 less than factory replacement brakes, so I devalued it by $200, the $600 high performance exhaust was $20 less than factory so I devalued it by another $20 etc. for my body kit, chip, performance suspension and other parts, but they were willing to be nice and still give me market value (my insurance policy covers market value) They also informed me that since Radar detectors and laser jammers were not legal in all provinces, even though they are in Alberta, they said they would not reimburse me and I was lucky I was not getting a ticket and fine. I was in shock but was able to ask one last question “So since I can have a race motor with 500 horse power built for $10,000 but a new factory motor with 300 horse power is $12,000 I would devalue my car by $2000 for adding 200 horse power?” they replied “Yes.” I was speechless and hung up.

On Monday my adjustor called me with the offer… $21,500 + GST. I was appalled. But my adjustor says I am lucky since she though I should only get $10,000 or so. I informed her that I had paid $19,500USD for my car, which is approx $24,000 Canadian, plus the 11.1% duty and GST it came to $26,500 CAD, plus the $2000 shipping, RIV fee, Air conditioning fee, installing day time running lights, metric instrument cluster and inspections I was into it for over $30,000 before the $10,000 I had spent modifying it, all recently since its purchase in October 2007 about 1.5 years. I also said that I was not looking for $40,000 but something fair that would put me into a similar car. She informed me that this is what their appraisers had come up with, so I asked for a copy of the appraisal. She said she would once I sent her a police report. I thought nothing of this and called the RCMP detachment. The RCMP proceeded to tell me that my insurance company was trying to scam me into doing their work, and it was up to the insurance company to send in a formal request for the report with the fee, and that the victim is not to see or pay for the report in most instances. I was starting to get upset with the way I had been treated. I called my Insurer and told them I was not going to do their job for them and to please send the appraisal, since it was not theirs to hold ransom. After getting the appraisal, I looked at the 10 cars he compared mine to. 4 were from Quebec, 3 were from Ontario, 2 were from BC and only 1 was from Alberta. In a quick study I did using 3 different vehicle models I noticed that the discrepancy between Quebec prices and here was from 18-24%. I later inquired about the cars the appraiser used with the original sellers and found some of them had major accident history; I did not know a mint car with no accident history was comparable to one that had previously been written off. I also totaled up the value of the 10 listed cars and it came out to $235,000 or an average of $23,500, $2000 less than they offered. I called my adjustor upset about this and they said they average 20 cars not just the 10 they showed me, but the weren’t obligated to show me the other 10 or give me contact info for the company that did the appraisal. I then sent them the links to the only 5 Subaru’s currently for sale in western Canada from the 3 major website, autotrader.ca, buysell.com, and driving.ca with prices from $28,000 to $33,000. They said that they wouldn’t have been included since they were all modified to some extent (the same as mine or less) and I asked why not since my car was also modified. They told me that modifications devalue the car and they are offering me stock value ($21500). I asked why don’t they save themselves money and buy me a modified one since it is worth less than a stock one. They had no response. They said if I want to dispute their offer, it is up to me to hire my own appraiser, and an umpire to monitor the debate between my appraiser, and theirs.

In my opinion I feel I am being treated quite unfairly since they are about 35% off of a price to get me into a comparable car, when I have coverage for market value, and am supposedly supposed to be treated better since I am a University student, and my family are professionals and alumni. I was wondering if you were able to help out or offer advice on how to handle my current predicament. In an already traumatizing situation, losing my pride and joy, I expected my Insurance Company to help me through the ordeal, not be against me. As a former Employee of TD Canada Trust, and having family currently employed there, I know how strongly TD pushes great customer experience, and I am surprised Meloche Monnex is allowed to operate under the TD name with service like this.

Regards

Jordan Finczak
(780)902-9494

Below are the links to the 5 2004 Subaru’s in Western Canada. The last advertised vehicle has an accident history as well to account for its drop in value
1) http://www.canadatrader.com/result/...edmontonalberta
2) http://www.canadatrader.com/result/...edmontonalberta
3) http://www.canadatrader.com/result/...edmontonalberta
4)
http://driving.canada.com/buy/used/...y?carid=2240630
5) http://www.buysell.com/root/detail/...boxer_DOHC.aspx

boarderfatty
05-08-2009, 09:50 AM
I have already forwarded an unformal complaint to the Insurance Bureau of Canada, and sent a similar message to Consumer watch at CTV News, as well as the comparables at City TV, CBC, and Global TV.

In my last email to the insurer, I told them that they are likely to lose me as a client, and they will never see my money again, not the difference I ask for, let alone the original $20,000. I also informed them that they would lose my families business which is an additional 4 cars, house, and life, which would make up for the difference in what I am asking with 1 years premiums. I also threatened that I would Slander them to the point that they would lose atleast their offer in lost premiums that year. Then I informed them Of my actions, sending the messages to the TV Stations and IBC

w_man
05-08-2009, 10:03 AM
There are some insurance gurus on here who might be able to provide some insight on their actions. I am personally with TD Meloche Monnex and went through an accident with a brand new car. They were excellent with me but I guess with a brand new car, their policies are a little different .. plus I had no mods.

On a side note ... have you looked in to getting a lawyer? I understand they can arrange for an appraiser and an umpire on your behalf .. and then get the insurance company to pay for the legal fees if you win the case. Of course it would be ideal to at least find out if you even have a case.

Sorry for your loss and GL with the fight.

ExtraSlow
05-08-2009, 10:12 AM
I can offer no assistance to you, but if you have an unusual or modified vehicle, maybe it's best to get it appraised and have that appraisal attached to the insurance policy before an accident.
Obivously this doens't help in your case, but it could help someone else.

boarderfatty
05-08-2009, 10:59 AM
I CC'ed them on my emails to the TV Stations, plus the posts I made in defferent forums, and they called me back within an hour to offer me what I thought Market value of the car was. since they perfered this story to not be made public in the news etc.

I do have a lawyer on retainer, but I felt I should not have to waste my retainer fighting insurance when they are suposed to help me. I also was told when it comes to modifications just to inform them and keep receipts, that an apraisel was not necessary which they changed their minds on when the car was stolen.

In the end I am happy with the result, just not the process I had to go through to aquire it.

Masked Bandit
05-08-2009, 11:55 AM
Your issue is with the modifications. MM was charging you based on the value of a STOCK car, not a modified one. You're pretty much done me thinks.

ralliart_girl
05-08-2009, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Masked Bandit
Your issue is with the modifications. MM was charging you based on the value of a STOCK car, not a modified one. You're pretty much done me thinks.

^ I agree.

Dude, perhaps your adjuster didn't explain thing to you well. First of all, with the police rpt, you are right, the insurance company is to order the offical one from the police. However, there were many times where I had asked the insured to provide me with their copy, so that i could have it on the file, and confirm the police rpt number.

Btw, comparables are based in the area of where you are. For the appraisers that I have dealt with, if it was an edmonton car, and you provide calgary comparables...already too far.

You have every right to call IBC...but i can tell you that i don't see anything wrong. I will admit that it appears that the service level they provided you with is at the lower end of the scale, but that's about it.

em2ab
05-08-2009, 12:36 PM
Weird. When I renewed my insurance with them 2-3 years ago, I asked them about my modifications and was told, "...as long as I can shake the car and it doesn't fall out, it's covered." But just to be sure now I have home owners insurance with them as well for $5 a month. Car insurance covers the car, home insurance covers everything else.

tom_9109
05-08-2009, 02:25 PM
You are entitled to the actual cash value (What it would actually sell for on the open market) of your STI, not what it cost you to do such modifications. IE, you take off stock wheels and put on a set of $2200 wheels you haven't upped you value $2200. Probably a few hundred bucks, say $500 at most. Same thing goes with other mods, don't expect to get a whole lot for the add ons. In one sense you may have increased to value of the vehicle to 5% of the market that will actually buy a modified vehicle. And of those people that will actually buy it you wouldn't expect them to pay full buck for every thing you've done.

I disagree that you're would be worth less than a stock one however perhaps you should be a little realistic about what its actually worth. Perhaps you're best best is to obtain an independent appraiser and have them run an Autosource valuation to support the value and then go back at them with that info. If you'd like to list what modifications you've done I can give you a pretty good idea what it should be worth.

As for the radar detector and laser jammer I don't think they should deny it on the basis it is illegal in other areas, its legal here. I think the industry is split on covering things such as these. The policy will cover items permanently attached to the vehicle but not your contents. Comes down to their judgement, is it permanently attached or is it contents and gets taken in and out of the vehicle. Some adjusters think if its attached by a suction cup its good enough, others figure its contents and don't cover it.


1. Out of curiosity has they vehicle been recovered yet?
2. How the hell did they manage to steal a car with an immobilizer?
3. What do you think the value should be?
4. What are the mods?

boarderfatty
05-08-2009, 03:53 PM
1) It has not been recovered
2)it does not have an imobilizer it is an 04, though if you want an 05 or up it is as simple as burning an ECU with the imobilizer disabled and pluginf that in
3) I was thinking around $28000 since that is what the list price is for comparable cars in western canada on the 3 main auto classified websites
4) Invidea Downpipe with divorsed wategate, HKS Hi Power cat back, Cobb Access Port, APS Intake, Greddy BOV, Perrin Top Mount Intercooler, Megan Coilovers, Brembo cross drilled Gold Cadmium Plated rotors, SS brake Lines, Hawk Pads, OEM Subaru V Spec Lip, Greddy turbo timer, Assorted Guages, Pioneer Avic D3 dual Din DVD Player/nav, Escort 9500 ix radar detector/laser jammer mounted into the dash and hard wired in.

As stated before Insurance decided to settle at a much more amicable value for me to retract my statements from the new stations and IBC

FraserB
05-08-2009, 04:41 PM
Any modifications that are done have to be communicated with the insurance comany, aprasied and a rider atatched to the policy, resulting in increased premiums. I pay more insurance since all my mods will be covered no questions asked since the ins co has a copy of all recipts and modifications to the jeep

Cos
05-08-2009, 05:01 PM
My insurance guy, who posted in here, went through the process with me very specifically. It actually stopped me doing certain mods to my car.

I have a rider attached to my policy for a couple things I have done to the car, however there are things that would be a total loss to my car if it were stolen or vandalized.

Also I agree that the comparables should be from your city, western canada is a HUGE difference. Cars in Vancouver have VERY different prices then they do in Calgary.

canuckcarguy
05-09-2009, 11:24 AM
Nice job getting the money you wanted.

It's a negotiation, that's all. They want to pay you as little as possible, and you want to maximize the claim. Sounds to me like you handled it professionally and got a good result. nice.

Clever
05-13-2009, 09:49 AM
Instead of creating a new thread, I thought I'd just post this here, I just have question somewhat related to this. If someone financing a vehicle, get in a car accident (not at fault) and the vehicle is written off, does insurance only cover the cost of the vehicle? So the money that insurance pays out goes towards the cost of the vehicle being financed, how about a replacement? What happens if that person cannot afford a higher cost to finance or cannot be approved because of bad credit to get another vehicle on their own, is there some sort of compensation for that? Or are you pretty much SOL?

Mar
05-13-2009, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by Clever
Instead of creating a new thread, I thought I'd just post this here, I just have question somewhat related to this. If someone financing a vehicle, get in a car accident (not at fault) and the vehicle is written off, does insurance only cover the cost of the vehicle? So the money that insurance pays out goes towards the cost of the vehicle being financed, how about a replacement? What happens if that person cannot afford a higher cost to finance or cannot be approved because of bad credit to get another vehicle on their own, is there some sort of compensation for that? Or are you pretty much SOL?
They pay out their perception of what the vehicle is worth. So if you got a car you bought for $20,000 and it's now worth $10,000, they'll provide you another similar vehicle around the $10,000 mark. You don't need to finance anything, you pay for it in cash. If you want to get a better vehicle and pay the difference or try for financing, that's up to you.

tom_9109
05-14-2009, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by Mar

They pay out their perception of what the vehicle is worth. So if you got a car you bought for $20,000 and it's now worth $10,000, they'll provide you another similar vehicle around the $10,000 mark. You don't need to finance anything, you pay for it in cash. If you want to get a better vehicle and pay the difference or try for financing, that's up to you.

Exactly, they are required to pay fair market value. If you paid more or less that its worth it is irrelevant. You get what its worth. finance charges or interest have no bearing on what a total loss payout is.

Clever
05-14-2009, 08:09 AM
So the pay out can go towards another vehicle(of the same current value of the written off car) and you still pay whoever you are financing the vehicle with the regular payments, that makes a lot of sense, thanks.

Edit: misunderstood the previous posts.

ExtraSlow
05-14-2009, 08:30 AM
Just to lay this out for you, I'll do an example with numbers
You still owe $10,000 on the car that was written off, and "market value for that car is $15,000.
Most people would pay off the financing on the old car and use the leftover $5000 as a down payment on another new one. Or buy a $5000 car with the cash.

If you happen to be in a situation where you owe more on the car than it's current "market value" then this can be a very bad situation.

In addition, some companies off what's called "replacement cost" on newer vehicles. I have this on my car. The way it works is that regardless of the market value, if my car is written off, insurance gives me enough money to buy a brand new one.
This costs more than standard insurance and is not probably a factor in your case.

canuckcarguy
05-14-2009, 08:44 AM
The finance company will be listed as "first loss payee" on your insurance policy, meaning that they'll get paid before you do. You won't have a choice but to pay the insurance settlement toward the outstanding balance. If you have no equity in the vehicle (ie, if you owe more than the market value), you'll still have to pay out the financing, and you'll have nothing to show for it.

The finance company is under no obligation to finance you again, although if you've been a reliable payer, they likely would want to.

Clever
05-14-2009, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by ExtraSlow
Snip...... very helpful info, thanks.



Originally posted by canuckcarguy
The finance company will be listed as "first loss payee" on your insurance policy, meaning that they'll get paid before you do. You won't have a choice but to pay the insurance settlement toward the outstanding balance. If you have no equity in the vehicle (ie, if you owe more than the market value), you'll still have to pay out the financing, and you'll have nothing to show for it.

The finance company is under no obligation to finance you again, although if you've been a reliable payer, they likely would want to.


Right, so someone who lets say owes 10k on a financed vehicle and get's 10k as a pay out in an accident and was not at fault is pretty much SOL. Considering that they have bad credit, no one will finance you at that point, you pretty much loose a car. This is all theoretical and of course other factors can come into play in this situation to get another vehicle but the bottom line is you get screwed out of a car, right?

Mar
05-14-2009, 10:27 AM
Nobody's getting screwed out of a car here.

Before the accident: You have a car you owe $10,000 on and it's worth $xxx.

The insurance company pays you $xxx, you buy another of the same exact car for $xxx.

After the accident: You now have the same (type of) car and still owe the same $10,000 on it. You're in the same position as before which is what the insurance company is responsible for doing.

How are you getting screwed?

Clever
05-14-2009, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by Mar
Nobody's getting screwed out of a car here.

Before the accident: You have a car you owe $10,000 on and it's worth $xxx.

The insurance company pays you $xxx, you buy another of the same exact car for $xxx.

After the accident: You now have the same (type of) car and still owe the same $10,000 on it. You're in the same position as before which is what the insurance company is responsible for doing.

How are you getting screwed?


I got that from your previous reply but based on Canuckcarguy's post, if that is the standard then in the end you are out a vehicle, and in this scenario the person has bad credit so now he will have a harder time to get a vehicle. This is all theoretical just wanted to find out what happens in this situation, no one is getting screwed, just a discussion.

atgilchrist
05-14-2009, 11:37 AM
If you owe $10k on a car worth $10k, and the financer gets that $10k you owed, it is true, you no longer have a car in you possession, but you also don't owe anything on the old loan. Go and get a new one and you are back where you were before the accident.