Shell Nitrogen Gas?

[bundi]

Anyone else think this is BS?
Any chemists here wanna try and explain how it works/doesn't?

How is the gasoline being "enriched with nitrogen"?
Unless it's actually chemically bound to something in fuel, it's just going to bubble out. From what I have researched, gasoline has some degree of nitrogen in it already, but how much or how is unknown to me.

There's no explanation of this anywhere that I've found and the only explanation of how it works is that the nitrogen binds to the carbon, okay.. but searching I've found that nitromethane and nitric acid are both produced during the combustion of fuel.. and nitromethane is part of the actual cleaning process of your engine... but really how much of this is produced before you start running out of the other ingredients and is the nitrogen in the Air the source for this being that air is already 80% nitrogen...

Let's get geeky!

[Gart]

I was curious about this too after seeing the commercial, but forgot until you reminded me right now..


so far google has showed me these two:
apparently it just helps the detergents not break down as easily or something to that effect..

http://www.examiner.com/x-4824-Tampa-Sports-Car-Examiner~y2009m3d22-Nitrogen-Enriched-Gasoline

http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-4824-Tampa-Sports-Car-Examiner~y2009m4d17-How-does-nitrogen-enriched-gasoline-work

[Xtrema]

Marketing.

Because V-Power isn't as marketable as predicted and Ferrari's F1 failures came about as they were introducing V-Power as well.

Most people can care less about power. But Nitrogen Enriched that cleans? Sounds good. Sounds green.

The fact is, branded gasoline is just like Walmart/RCSS gasoline with more detergents. This branding attempt is just another marketing ploy to get you to branded stations who can't really compete with Walmart or RCSS on price.

[B20EF]

Originally posted by Xtrema
The fact is, branded gasoline is just like Walmart/RCSS gasoline with more detergents. This branding attempt is just another marketing ploy to get you to branded stations who can't really compete with Walmart or RCSS on price.

Walmart has gas stations?
What about the classic thread done by rage2 about combustibility of gasoline from different stations. Is just the detergents that make some better than others?

[7thgenvic]

I don't know if walmart has any more stations in calgary

[Ferio_vti]

Originally posted by 7thgenvic
I don't know if walmart has any more stations in calgary

the only one was in Shawnessy, but it's long gone.

[AzNxHyDrA]

Originally posted by B20EF


Walmart has gas stations?
What about the classic thread done by rage2 about combustibility of gasoline from different stations. Is just the detergents that make some better than others?

Can you link this thread?

[bundi]

I'd really like to read the thread you're talking about, wasn't able to find it by searching gasoline or detergent.

From what I read today while researching gasolines, I did get the impression that a lot of people liked the Chevron Techron gas, as well as Petro Canada's as their detergents were supposed to be pretty good.... but yeah it could be plecebo or whatever too, I haven't found any gas station to be consitently better or worse than others.

Something to look out for though, avoid going to old or run down gas stations if possible. While to fuel going in to their tanks may be great, their tanks could be old and full of dirt which will sometimes make it to your car, especially if their tank has just been filled. Also, gas stations that don't look like they maintain their pumps will often only replace filters and and maintain calibration when they absolutely have to (pump stops working). If water gets into a tank, it can be coming in to your car too if they aren't using the more expensive water filters (many new gas stations don't even use these). You are less likely to run into these problems with larger companies vs ma&pa type places as they can afford to keep things up to date.

[Mibz]

With 10x Air Miles and my car requiring 91 octane anyway I don't care if it's enriched with OXO cubes!

EDIT: Rage's thread had nothing to do with detergents, it was about octane. He simply filled his tank, upped the boost until it knocked and recorded the results (IIRC).

As for the nitrogen, it doesn't matter. If you're running 91 octane through a car that's tuned for 87 then you're retarded. If you need to run 91 then chances are your car will benefit from the slightly higher octane in Shell anyway so you might as well.

[bundi]

Can't find rage's post on octane either, for some reason I can't see Shell's 91 octane being significantly better than any other 91 octane.

[rage2]

I couldn't find it either.

Shell's 91 is better than others because it can resist knock better than other 91's (such as Petro's really crappy 91), plus it has slightly more energy content, thus giving you better fuel economy.

The ethanol blends, well, just 94 nowadays since Mohawk/Husky phased out their 92, has poor energy content (bad fuel economy, bad power) but has much higher resistance to detonation. The poor power is easily overcome by adding more boost.

Back then, Esso was branded 92 octane, and my tests show that in terms of knock resistent, it was nearly identical to Shell 91. I guess others noticed this too, complained, and Esso promptly reclassified their premium as 91.

[bundi]

I have heard that Gasoline has more BTU's than ethanol, and that typically ethanol doesn't detonate as easily, always thought it was due to higher octane. I guess typical e85 is something like 110 octane.

WolframAlpha ethanol | Petroleum (http://www86.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=ethanol+|+petroleum)

If you check out the above link you can see ethanol's autoignition point is much higher than petroleums which would explain the resistance to ping. Unfortunately a BTU's are not on there.

I would really like to try and find some more technical stuff on retail gasoline available. Testing to see what gas is best by boosting until knock seems a little inaccurate, too many factors to consider such as ambient temperature at the time of testing, and what the condition of the fuel was where you actually fueled up.

[Neil4Speed]

I had been fueling at Petro for a good 1.5 years keeping track of mileage that I got with each tank. Shell yields noticeably better fuel mileage - in most cases around 8-10%.

Add the fact that Shell has 10X Airmiles with premium, and Airmiles are actually useful for something rather than Petro Points.

[2BLUE]

I have to step in on this one.

Last week I filled up at shell and bought the lowest octane 89 I belive and drove to kelowna. My vehicle not only did wayyy better kms per tank but ran way better.

I'm not talking alittle difference I'm talking huge difference.

I always get 150-162kms before coming off "F"

I got 227kms which is unheard of before coming off of "F"

Now I was thinking maybe I had some extra gas in there so I filled the truck twice since then right to the top and both times I got 210-232kms

Yesterday I filled up at petro canada and drove to canmore and the vehicle drank a quarter tank. I will stick to my shell from now on.

Im not one for gimmicks but this really made a difference.

[bundi]

Wow, good info :)

Next fillup I'll benchmark too :)

[narou]

There new marketing with this nitrogen enriched fuel is BS. Their fuel as well as some of there competitors fuel already has a significant volume of Nitrogen and other detergents in the fuel coming through the pumps. Shell is just playing games and trying to make it look like they are offering high performance than before.:thumbsdow

I fill at co-op at and collect my good check every year.

[bigbadboss101]

Originally posted by 2BLUE
I have to step in on this one.

Last week I filled up at shell and bought the lowest octane 89 I belive and drove to kelowna. My vehicle not only did wayyy better kms per tank but ran way better.

I'm not talking alittle difference I'm talking huge difference.

I always get 150-162kms before coming off "F"

I got 227kms which is unheard of before coming off of "F"

Now I was thinking maybe I had some extra gas in there so I filled the truck twice since then right to the top and both times I got 210-232kms

Yesterday I filled up at petro canada and drove to canmore and the vehicle drank a quarter tank. I will stick to my shell from now on.

Im not one for gimmicks but this really made a difference.

When I first read your post I thought no way the difference can be that great. The other day I had slightly less than a quarter tank left and the reading said 370km driven. I normally don't get 400km in the city with a tank full. I filled up again with V Power and will see how many km I get this time around.

[TurboD]

i love how people think they are talking about fuel brand like its actually a factor when their mpg changes.
give me a break

until you rule out wind, air direction, incline, road conditions, tire pressure, throttle position, contaminates in the tank, freshness of fuel etc etc etc

until you can rule out all of these, which have a 10 fold effect on milage over fuel brand, you cannot speculate.

that being said, i only fill up with shell, my turbo motor used to run the best on shell and it never blew up so why stop a good thing.

[Palmiros]

So in conclusion, Shell Nitrogen enriched gas = :bullshit: BUT even given this, it's still the best out there?
I usually fill up with either Shell VPower or Husky 94.. from what I understand.. Shell is the better option?

[Alak]

I used to be lazy and fill up at husky cuz it was only a block away. Didnt take long for my to go back to V-Power.

[THE GOVERNATOR]

I've recently switched over to shell fuel as well. i used to get esso fuel all the time but i noticed on average, a extra 75km-90km extra per tank using shell fuel. plus i drive bout 60kms a day. plus being on a tight budget that's one more commute to work and back before i need to refuel.

[Mibz]

Originally posted by Palmiros
I usually fill up with either Shell VPower or Husky 94.. from what I understand.. Shell is the better option? If you can tune for the extra octane then Husky will end up netting you more power but if you car asks for 91, give it 91.


Originally posted by Alak
I used to be lazy and fill up at husky cuz it was only a block away. Didnt take long for my to go back to V-Power. I did the same thing. I'm around the corner from a Husky but the closest Shell was just under 10 minutes away. Then they opened the Shell in Millrise and life was good again.

[rage2]

Originally posted by TurboD
i love how people think they are talking about fuel brand like its actually a factor when their mpg changes.
give me a break

until you rule out wind, air direction, incline, road conditions, tire pressure, throttle position, contaminates in the tank, freshness of fuel etc etc etc

until you can rule out all of these, which have a 10 fold effect on milage over fuel brand, you cannot speculate.
When you switch from Mohawk 94 to Shell v-power, the difference is staggering, no need for such detailed analysis LOL.

Besides, when you have tons of people reporting the same experiences, it's kinda obvious is it not?

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Have some old rage2 post!




Quite a bit... the fuel curve is mapped to 12.2:1 A/F ratio at 7psi all the way to 28psi (set any boost pressure and it'll be the same A/F ratio, however ethanol blends will "lean" out the readings a little bit). Timing is set about 7psi to 20 degrees total timing. There's also a knock sensor which retards timing when knock is determined (the octane determines at which psi it starts to knock). So, my car is a rolling octane tester.

Petro Canada has the worse gas (11psi), Shell and Esso are a bit better (12psi), Mohawk 92 is the best (13psi), and Mohawk 94 was just tested with excellent results (15psi). At about 10whp per psi of boost, it's well worth shopping around for the best gas.

On my SLK, the ECU is set to expect 93 octane fuel. Because it's an OBD2 car, I can read timing advance very easily using an OBDII scanner. Here are the results on similar weather days (except for 94, which was done today at 28C). The higher the number, the cooler the engine runs (lower EGTs), the more power it makes, and the longer your valves last . Results mimic the Porsche boost test. Runs were done in 3rd gear.

VP MS103 - 21-23 degrees
Mohawk + VPMS103 (~93.5) - 17-20 degrees
Mohawk 92 - 16-17 degrees
Esso 92 - 14-16 degrees (After government tests, it's been renamed to 91)
Shell 91 - 13-15 degrees
Petro Canada 91 - 11-13 degrees
Mohawk 94 - 19-22 degrees on a hot day!

If your car is stock, you probably won't see a difference in the different "premium" brands

[Alak]

I had an 04' Acura TSX that ran on Shell from the day it was new. One time I ran some other premium because I was in a small town and needed gas, so obviously it was all they had. I shoulda just ran her dry and called AMA, making sure they brought me the good stuff hahaha. Stuff probably had water in it because nobody used it.

Daily driving a vehicle where every MPG counts, Shell makes a huge difference. It also makes a difference in general performance, in a vehicle that makes hardly any performance at all. :rofl:

[Neil4Speed]

Originally posted by TurboD
i love how people think they are talking about fuel brand like its actually a factor when their mpg changes.
give me a break

until you rule out wind, air direction, incline, road conditions, tire pressure, throttle position, contaminates in the tank, freshness of fuel etc etc etc

until you can rule out all of these, which have a 10 fold effect on milage over fuel brand, you cannot speculate.

that being said, i only fill up with shell, my turbo motor used to run the best on shell and it never blew up so why stop a good thing.

Listen, prior to switching I had the exact same view as you. But really consider the experiences of people on this board, I would encourage you to try yourself if it works, your wrong, but hey! you have a few extra dollars in your pocket.

The difference I have with Shell is absolutely consistent. If I fill up with Petro Premium I get less mileage consistently.

Its hard to say as well, but my car seems to run better with Shell, I feel that its noticeable.

[eb0i]

I've been running Husky 94 in my car since I've bought it and get about 420km/tank (average). I think I will try shell for my next few tanks and see if there is a difference.

[badatusrnames]

The problem with Husky, as mentioned, is the 10% ethanol blend. So while the fuel resists knocking better, it has a lower energy content than a non-ethanol blend. I've also heard that since the fuel contains oxygen (in the ethanol), it throws off your oxygen:fuel ratios. Also, apparently some older style injectors can have deterioration problems resulting from the presence of oxidizers in the fuel (http://www.jimwolftechnology.com/wolfpdf/Z32EARLYSTYLEINJFAILURE.pdf).

I've found that of the local gasoline, my car does pull best with V-Power, however I was finding that even with V-Power, my car would stop continuing to pull harder after I crossed about 5000-5500 RPM and acceleration would basically flat line.

My last tank I added a 4 litre tin of toluene to my gasoline and have really noticed a big improvement (a big, seat of the pants "wow") in that higher RPM range, the car really goes and pulls harder and harder to redline like it should.

This is with the stock ECU and fuel maps, so of course, your tune is important.

Here's some info about adding toluene to your tank:

http://s95014253.onlinehome.us/63104/83437.html

[Drsuce]

since moving back to calgary from kelowna i can say 2 things...
1)My GT mustang loves shell 87 :)
2)My Cobra REALLY misses chevron 94...

i never got to play with fuel in kelowna as they have *alot* of fuel quality issues in the valley. I used the same pump (even had to wait for it a few times) for 1.5 years and changed my fuel filter 3x in that span and luckily never had problems (way to go chevron!). There were many times in that span that we were replacing nearly the entire fuel system because of tained gas (coffee brown fuel... yum).

[2EFNFAST]

I have to agree with what the others say - Shell's gasoline is the best (even if their marketing ideas are sketchy).

My 408w idles MUCH smoother and 100rpm higher with the shell 91 as opposed to the 91 I purchased at esso, co-op, and 711.

I also started filling up my z06 there and noticed greatly improved mileage as well on it, almost another 90kms.

[B4tMan]

I run gas from Petro

I like the discounts from : 1 Citi card; 2 the gas station on 17th next to Deerfoot.

I drive plenty and it adds up

[rage2]

If your car idles differently on different fuels on stock vehicles, you probably need to replace your O2 sensors. Modern cars should easily compensate for the different fuels we have here.

If you have a custom ECU that doesn't compensate well, then it means you're tuned to a specific fuel. I can be tuned on 94 husky and shell will idle like shit, and vice versa.

I wouldn't use idle quality to determine what a good fuel is.

[googe]

Originally posted by rage2

Besides, when you have tons of people reporting the same experiences, it's kinda obvious is it not?

Have you not heard of "the secret"? :) Or people that say Royal Purple makes their car feel "so much smoother and faster". Do not underestimate the ability of large groups to fool themselves...

I'm skeptical, but the reports have me interested. Considering air pressure variances and their comparatively huge effect on power output, most of the anecdotes above are not at all compelling. I highly doubt anyone's stock car is advancing timing, so people are basically suggesting that the BTU is hugely different for something that is still just plain gasoline. Lets put things into perspective.The additive is a pretty small percentage of the mixture, so its potential to impact energy output isn't that great.

For example (based on quick searching)...

Ethanol BTU: 83,000/gal
Gasoline BTU: 118,000/gal

So, that means straight ethanol has about 30% less energy than gasoline. But we don't use straight ethanol, Husky uses only 10% afaik. So that means we are talking about 10% of 30%, which means we can realistically expect to see only about a 3% difference at most.

If you get 20mpg on gasoline with a 20gal tank, that's 400 miles on a tank. By switching to a 10% ethanol blend according to the above numbers, you would end up getting 388 miles. So, shitty gas vs pure gas could affect up to 12 miles or so on your entire tank.

Considering the difference between highway and city driving alone is usually like 5mpg, that's going to play a bigger role after only 2 or 3 gallons. Factor in barometric pressure and temperature, riding with a passenger sometimes, and there's no way anyone is seeing any difference at all based on a few back to back fillups. Hell, take a 3000lb vehicle and a driver and passenger that both weigh 175, and losing the passenger alone will give you a 5% improvement.

Not saying shell is or isn't better, but it would be cool to do a test that is at least somewhat scientific. The claims by some that you get 50% - 60% improvements in fuel economy (on a stock ECU nonetheless) are totally nonsense.

[scat19]

Originally posted by rage2
I couldn't find it either.

Shell's 91 is better than others because it can resist knock better than other 91's (such as Petro's really crappy 91)

have worked at a Petro, Co-op, and shell in my young life as a gas jockey and same fuel, same supplier, same trucks for all three stations. Manties (sp?)

[ExtraSlow]

Originally posted by scat19


have worked at a Petro, Co-op, and shell in my young life as a gas jockey and same fuel, same supplier, same trucks for all three stations. Manties (sp?)
mantei's is a trucking comapny, they don't refine fuels.

[Mar]

I hate marketing like this. They use crazy adjectives to describe how it works and refer to things like, "...the little green power balls..." or "...the scrubbing action...." These are just words made up to fool dumb people, can't they actually explain how the hell it works so people can decide if they want to buy it?

[scat19]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow

mantei's is a trucking comapny, they don't refine fuels.

I understand this; however, I've asked the drivers and they say it's all the same fuel. Unless they are mis-informed.

[Mibz]

Originally posted by googe
it would be cool to do a test that is at least somewhat scientific. If that were possible I'd put money out of pocket to have it done, but there are far too many factors that come in to play, three times as many as you've already mentioned.

So if I have the option of filling up with gas that I -think- is better, or gas that I'm going to -think- reduces my mileage, guess what I'm gonna do. I'm not directing this at googe, but people tend to downplay placebo as a reason -not- to do something. Well shit, if it makes me happy then what's the problem?

[japan_us]

Originally posted by narou
There new marketing with this nitrogen enriched fuel is BS. Their fuel as well as some of there competitors fuel already has a significant volume of Nitrogen and other detergents in the fuel coming through the pumps. Shell is just playing games and trying to make it look like they are offering high performance than before.:thumbsdow

I fill at co-op at and collect my good check every year.

No different than PCan offering "Winter Gas" when all gas companies have winterized gas. :drama:

If it gets people to the pumps, then good for them.

[2EFNFAST]

Originally posted by rage2
If your car idles differently on different fuels on stock vehicles, you probably need to replace your O2 sensors. Modern cars should easily compensate for the different fuels we have here.

If you have a custom ECU that doesn't compensate well, then it means you're tuned to a specific fuel. I can be tuned on 94 husky and shell will idle like shit, and vice versa.

I wouldn't use idle quality to determine what a good fuel is.

700hp 408w, aggressive timing, holley 850cfm carb; ain't no stinking computer here....if my car doesn't get good gas, he isn't happy ;)

[rage2]

Originally posted by 2EFNFAST
700hp 408w, aggressive timing, holley 850cfm carb; ain't no stinking computer here....if my car doesn't get good gas, he isn't happy ;)
Same principal applies. If you tuned for 94 octane and it's timing properties, it'd run like shit on Shell :).

[alloroc]

Originally posted by rage2

Same principal applies. If you tuned for 94 octane and it's timing properties, it'd run like shit on Shell :).

.. and it would run even better on E85 (more power anyway). I bet another 35HP with 10% worse fuel milage but E85 is supposed to be cheaper so it evens out.
You just need a rejet kit for the carb (which includes nylon gaskets) and maybe different fuel lines and a pump upgrade.

[2EFNFAST]

Originally posted by alloroc


.. and it would run even better on E85 (more power anyway). I bet another 35HP with 10% worse fuel milage but E85 is supposed to be cheaper so it evens out.
You just need a rejet kit for the carb (which includes nylon gaskets) and maybe different fuel lines and a pump upgrade.

Yea, I think I'll pass on craptacular e85. I used to work for a biofuels company; e85 is the biggest fail out there.

[rage2]

e85 is kinda expensive when you account for fuel consumption (it's like 30-40% worse than regular gasoline). But, it produces the most power on turbo motors because of it's vastly superior knock resistance.

[2EFNFAST]

Originally posted by rage2
e85 is kinda expensive when you account for fuel consumption (it's like 30-40% worse than regular gasoline). But, it produces the most power on turbo motors because of it's vastly superior knock resistance.

boost = cheater

real men are n/a all the way :burnout:

:angel:

[Redlyne_mr2]

Originally posted by rage2
e85 is kinda expensive when you account for fuel consumption (it's like 30-40% worse than regular gasoline). But, it produces the most power on turbo motors because of it's vastly superior knock resistance.
Yah lots of mr2 owners running e85 in the US. Most guys are seeing between 50 and 90 whp gains which is pretty impressive. As for as I know e85 isn't easily available here.

[2EFNFAST]

Originally posted by Redlyne_mr2

Yah lots of mr2 owners running e85 in the US. Most guys are seeing between 50 and 90 whp gains which is pretty impressive. As for as I know e85 isn't easily available here.

stock mr2s? :confused:

[Redlyne_mr2]

Originally posted by 2EFNFAST


stock mr2s? :confused:
no no modded, aftermarket turbos, engine management etc. :)