Tibet: Chinese scholars take a closer look

[Subwoofah]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20090526/wl_time/08599190089900

An independent review of Tibetan policies and why the rioting happened.

"
Tuesday May 26, 2009

A new report from a group of Chinese scholars has for the first time challenged China's official explanation that the deadly riots that broke out across Tibet in March, 2008, were inspired by "overseas forces" - namely the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan government-in-exile. (Read "One Year After Protests, an Enforced Silence on Tibet.")
The report, which was recently published on a Chinese website, blames the riots not on outsiders but on Beijing's policy toward Tibet, claiming the central government has backed incompetent local officials, created an economy that provides few options for young people, and deprived Tibetans of access to equal justice under the law. (See pictures of last year's uprising in Tibet.)

While international human rights groups have said the rioting, in which at least 19 died, was a predictable response to the repression many Tibetans experience under Chinese rule, domestic criticism of the government on the politically charged subject of Tibet is rare in China.
What's perhaps most unusual about the report is that it was produced by a group of Chinese scholars working for a Beijing-based think tank. The 22-page document is based on research compiled over a month by four graduate students from Peking University, one of China's most prestigious schools. It was released by the Open Constitution Initiative, a six-year-old NGO run by Chinese lawyers. The group focuses on issues such as last year's tainted milk powder scandal and reform of China's household registration policy, which limits migration from the countryside to cities.

"We want to help society, and help build rule of law," says Xu Zhiyong, legal scholar and one of the group's founders. "We want to be objective. On questions like Tibet, human rights, and so forth, the Chinese government has a standpoint, foreign governments and foreign media have a standpoint. But it's also important to have an independent look at the problems."
While the central government says that 50 years of Communist Party rule of Tibet has led to broad economic gains, the report argues that few of the benefits are enjoyed by young people, who made up a large proportion of the rioters last year. The researchers found the while young Tibetans had given up interest in living as herders and farmers like their elders, a lack of opportunities for work or higher education meant that they have little hope of finding a place in the broader world to which they've been exposed. (Read "China Watches as Tibetan Talks Begin.")

In Tibet, many of the stores, restaurants and hotels are owned and run by ethnic Han Chinese, who are reluctant to hire locals. "In interviews with many young Tibetans, they all said finding work was difficult," the report says. "The main obstacle was language and a lack of fluency in Mandarin. In Lhasa, those who can speak Mandarin can't necessarily find jobs. Many employers won't necessarily hire Tibetans because they are seen as too lazy."

The report's harshest critique of Chinese rule was that in tearing down the traditional Tibetan Élite, Beijing established a new hierarchy of local Tibetan officials who have badly managed the region's affairs. "The government has given local cadres great power, but shown little supervision. They have learned to use the goal of 'stable development' as a shield," the report says. It adds that many officials have learned to use the threat of "outside forces" promoting Tibetan independence to conceal their inability to address local problems.

By undercutting the official line that all grievances in Tibet are inspired by the Dalai Lama and driven by independence plotters, the group's report offers hope of a freer debate over tensions in China's sensitive border regions, according to Nicholas Bequelin, researcher for the NGO Human Rights Watch. "This is something that we've been waiting for a long time," he says. "Any improvement in Tibet and Xinjiang can only trickle down from more open areas of China." (Read "Dalai Lama to Stay Quiet on Tibet's Future.")

Xu says that Tibet shouldn't be considered a sensitive subject, and that the Open Constitution Initiative hasn't run into any problems with the government since releasing its study. But Bequelin says that the report hasn't caused trouble because it hasn't been widely distributed or covered within China. And while he notes that the group has been able to post the document on its website, he doubts printed copies will ever be permitted to circulate on the mainland.
"

[szw]

Whats with your China hardon?

[bubbley]

u got cliffnotes for this book?

[Subwoofah]

Originally posted by bubbley
u got cliffnotes for this book?

If you're referring to the article, it basically states why the Tibetans protested in Tibet. This is because there aren't any jobs for Tibetans in Tibet. Chinese own most of the businesses and do not like to hire Tibetans.
Also, local administrators are incompetent and blame 'outside forces' namely the Dalai Lama, for their deficiencies. Sure the government pumps millions of dollars (yuan) into Tibet but when you have terrible governance and an unhappy population, you run the risk of rioting and protests.

'China hardon' : I guess it's because my family has had first hand experience with China and the policies they have for us.

[Toma]

roll into Tibet... wipe out any monks that take up violence.
Make it a punishable by death crime to take money/bribes from foreign sources (ie, Americans, CIA etc)...

Put a hit on the CIA funded scumbag, that Dali Laamba.

Problem solved.

[Vagabond142]

once again Toma demonstrates his total lack of understanding of world politics -_-

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by Toma
roll into Tibet... wipe out any monks that take up violence.
They did that. You forgot to mention wipe out as many historical and religious institutions as the Chinese feel are necessary.

Of course why just kill monks when you could just wipe out all the Tibetans? Who would miss them?



Make it a punishable by death crime to take money/bribes from foreign sources (ie, Americans, CIA etc)...

It seems like you think the Chinese allow this, why would it stop whether its internment (which would likely lead to death) or kill on the spot punishment?


Put a hit on the CIA funded scumbag, that Dali Laamba.

I'm sure that would go over well in the international community as well as Tibet. Why not put a hit on Barack while they're at it?


Problem solved.

Sounds like you've got it all figured out. Political assasinations and cultural genocide, what a surefire way to get rid of a problem.

[ZenOps]

Chinese are treating Tibetans much better than Europeans treated natives in North America.

China doesn't really want the land, they want a military buffer zone and strategic mountainous terrain defendable nuclear longitude and latitude advantage that Tibet affords.

Tibetans make really great sweaters and toques though, the wheat they sheaf by hand is pretty tasty, and the religious sand paintings (that are meant to be destroyed) are pretty. Not exactly the primary reason for taking over a country - but believe what you want. Only a perverted European/western media would try to blame this on a religious war (Atheism/angostic vs Buddist, rofl)

[kamakurakid]

Originally posted by Toma
roll into Tibet... wipe out any monks that take up violence.
Make it a punishable by death crime to take money/bribes from foreign sources (ie, Americans, CIA etc)...

Put a hit on the CIA funded scumbag, that Dali Laamba.

Problem solved.

Idiot!

[ZenOps]

Hows this for a conspiracy theory.

Some less than desirable European theives managed to join the ranks of the Tibetan monestary. They destabilized the area just long enough for them to make it look like Chinese were destroying precious religious artifacts - when in fact they were stealing them for themselves.

It happend to many of Egypts treasures (European plunder by less than archaeologists) You know - the rival of Indiana Jones - whats his face ;)

[Toma]

Originally posted by kertejud2

Why not put a hit on Barack while they're at it?



If he took bribe money from say the Russian secret service, he would be probably be put to death for Treason....

Pretty standard fair in most countries as far as I am aware.

[Toma]

Originally posted by kertejud2



Sounds like you've got it all figured out. Political assasinations and cultural genocide, what a surefire way to get rid of a problem.
Not genocide when you are fighting violence, treason, and foreign meddling.

I said wipe out monks that take up violence... how is that genocide? It has boiled down to a war, and needs to be finished, not prolonged.

The Lamba is a bad man, and since he is running away, spreading instability and propaganda, at the very least he needs to be silenced and jailed..... his actions are directly destabilizing a region that is resulting in unnecessary suffering while he is gallivanting around the world.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Vagabond142
once again Toma demonstrates his total lack of understanding of world politics -_-

He's right. USA has been funding all thorns on China's side.

Dailai Lama. Falun Gong. The previous Taiwanese government. It's their way to keep China in check. After all, China now got Americans by the balls holding most US reserves.

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by Toma

Not genocide when you are fighting violence, treason, and foreign meddling. I said wipe out monks that take up violence... how is that genocide? It has boiled down to a war, and needs to be finished, not prolonged.

Well, I said cultural genocide, which is what wiping out monks will do (thinking it should stop at ones who take up violence is unrealistic, of course so is the notion that a monk would take up violence and still be a monk).




The Lamba is a bad man, and since he is running away, spreading instability and propaganda, at the very least he needs to be silenced and jailed..... his actions are directly destabilizing a region that is resulting in unnecessary suffering while he is gallivanting around the world.

So then we should silence and jail anybody who speaks to cause instability in any part of the world, why just stop with him? And why should the rest of the world arrest him anyway? Has he done anything illegal in these countries, or are you suggesting that China should do some foreign meddling and arrest him themselves (which I suppose would give whatever country they're meddling in permission to kill whoever may or may not be involved...)

The Lama is not in China, so what he says is really up to the authorities wherever he happens to be. Hell, calling for the Lama's imprisonment, or dare I say assassination, would cause instability in every Buddhist part of the world, so we should then arrest whoever was responsible for causing that?

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by kertejud2
The Lama is not in China, so what he says is really up to the authorities wherever he happens to be. Hell, calling for the Lama's imprisonment, or dare I say assassination, would cause instability in every Buddhist part of the world, so we should then arrest whoever was responsible for causing that?

Why did the FBI has to crush the Davidians in Waco if it weren't for stability sake?

How would you feel if David Koresh exile and allow to exist in China to keep preaching anti-usa.

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by Xtrema
How would you feel if David Koresh exile and allow to exist in China to keep preaching anti-usa.

:dunno: English please?

This is just more egg in the face of all those who claim that China is somehow liberating this populace. All they are doing in Tibet is sending in ethnic Han Chinese and uprooting the existing population. How anyone can think this is not genocide on a large scale is beyond me... Either way we seem to have plenty of the "Party" members here who are drinking the kool-aid. It just goes to show you the power of propaganda when the people who are no longer shackled and oppressed still toe the party line :rofl:

PS: Stop all the hating on the Europeans that was over roughly four generations ago and it still does not make it right in our present day. That stupid native american argument is about the worst straw man argument ever. Justifying current crimes against humanity by bringing up examples from the past :facepalm:. Well if you can do that then hell let us start up the crusades again. I am ready to proverbially kill them all and let the judeo christian god sort them out.

[mucat]

There were (and still are) lots of inlanders moving to Hong Kong. People in Hong Kong complaint about it and such. But you don't see them start a riot and breaking and stealing things. Because they have better things to do. Like going to work, make a living and have a life.

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by Xtrema

Why did the FBI has to crush the Davidians in Waco if it weren't for stability sake?

What an obscure reference. I suppose if there is a cult of secular Buddhist monks sheltered up on a ranch who were stockpiling weapons and explosives and then fired upon Chinese authorities sent to investigate then the authorities would fire back, yes.


How would you feel if David Koresh exile and allow to exist in China to keep preaching anti-usa.

Ignoring the fact Koresh is dead and the fact that a religious prophet wouldn't really get to do any preaching of any kind in China, this doesn't really say...anything. So what if Koresh was doing anti-USA preaching in China? Would the Chinese care? I think they'd care more about him calling himself the last prophet in order to get followers.

[ZenOps]

But, we are doing the exact same thing in Canada.

The US already genocided all the natives.

In Canada, we just take all of the fertile land, and then force them further and further north, with no assistance for clean water or even food production. The main hotspots in the last few years have been Oka and Caledonia.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/caledonia-landclaim/

In Tibet, the Chinese are moving Tibetans to smaller and smaller more "undesireable" parcels of land. Its absolutely no different, not one spec of difference. Even down to the faked landclaims that the governments make.

[alloroc]

Originally posted by ZenOps
But, we are doing the exact same thing in Canada.

The US already genocided all the natives.

In Canada, we just take all of the fertile land, and then force them further and further north, with no assistance for clean water or even food production. The main hotspots in the last few years have been Oka and Caledonia.


If you don't know what you are talking about ...

Shut - the - fuck - up - and - pull - your - head - out - of - your -ass.

What we did 150 years ago is moot.

It is what we are doing now that is important. I have a relative who worked as a band manager for years up north. He now works privatly for an Inuit consortium that owns several MAJOR companies here in Canada including Canada's largest barge company and another company that was responsible for flying extra employees into and out of Fort mac. There are many Native communities (especially up north) who have more rights and entitlement to their land than you can imagine. Just wait 25 years and see which communities start making money for themselves. The bands that are in trouble and cause trouble (ie OKA) are the ones that have substance abuse issues and when it comes to that I have little sympathy.

[alloroc]

Originally posted by kertejud2


Well, I said cultural genocide, which is what wiping out monks will do (thinking it should stop at ones who take up violence is unrealistic, of course so is the notion that a monk would take up violence and still be a monk).



I do not agree with Toma, but you have to read behind the lines. - and yes there are monks who take up violence and are running underground organizations and yes starting and stopping with the ones who take up violence would be realistic.

I read your statement and I think of this ... Why would we only prosecute a preist convicted of child molestation stopping at just those ones would be unrealistic. We should just jail them all.

[Subwoofah]

Its always an outside influence that is blamed for any internal problem in China and its never China's government at fault. That's what they've taught everyone to believe.

Tienanmen square massacre happened in '89 by students and activists wanting a democratic government but thats blamed again on the CIA and 'outside forces'.
Riots in Tibet broke out in 2008 causing destruction and death on both sides. But this is caused by 'outside influences' and not the fact that Tibetans have been jailed, tortured and killed for the last 60 years?
10,000, mostly children, died in a devastating earthquake. The parents want to know more about how and why but they are instead put in jail and lawyers are banned from pursuing any legal action. Will this case also be an 'outside influence' or the CIA attempting to destabilize China?

Did you guys read the article? It talks about a report, which was released by accredited Chinese scholars, that explains why the Tibetans are protesting. The main point being that Tibetans in Tibet are not as happy as the government makes you believe. This is coming from your very own lawyers and scholars and not 'biased' news agencies.
People that risk their lives by crossing treacherous mountain passes guarded by patrols who shoot on site generally have a really good reason for doing it.

Tibetans are fighting for their rights as a person. FREE TIBET is a cry to free Tibetans, not from China, but rather the freedom of their rights as humans.

[Toma]

In an era and time in our civilization where we should be coming together as people, isolation, fragmentation, nationalism, racism etc seems misplaced.

I had previously been brainwashed to believe monks were these honorable, peaceful, religious individuals......

All bets are off now that it is plainly clear it is nothing but another corrupt political body.

[Toma]

Originally posted by Subwoofah


Tienanmen square massacre happened in '89 by students and activists wanting a democratic government but thats blamed again on the CIA and 'outside forces'. .

That is one of those events that really has been curious. Would love to know what really happened..... guess we will never see an unbiased version of the event.

[coldmind]

Another issue that will not get solved within this century... look at Israel and Palestine. Sigh....

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Subwoofah]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
This doesn't excuse China for wrong doings... but if anything China is/was the lesser of two evils here.

Its hard to say who's right. My information comes from first hand experience whereas yours might come from a trusted source. There are two sides to every story and winners will tell history differently than losers.

I am an advocate of Tibet being a part of China. Does that surprise you? It would be politically and economically beneficial for both sides and makes total sense to many Tibetans. This resolution is what the Dalai Lama is advocating in many of his meetings with China. There is no mention of monks taking control of government and putting the old system back in power. We democratically elected our ministers and president so going back to the old ideology wouldn't make any sense. If we're going to compare history of cultures and how backwards and brutal they were, this topic could go on forever. Why not focus on right now instead of judging cultures based on outdated practices.

Nowadays, it is wrong when you torture, rape, and murder people who's only crime is demanding human rights. It is wrong to kill people who want to leave this system.

'In an era and time in our civilization where we should be coming together as people, isolation, fragmentation, nationalism, racism etc seems misplaced.' - Toma

Well you see, with this era and time, our civilization should accept the differences of cultures and embrace change. Isolation, fragmentation, nationalism, racism are all spawned from unrest and discontent. Fix the problem instead of blaming others.

'I had previously been brainwashed to believe monks were these honorable, peaceful, religious individuals......' -Toma

Who brainwashed you? Because it certainly wasn't the Chinese government. I remember a Chinese cartoon from the 80's that had a Shaolin monk who saved people from evil Tibetan monks.
Your previous perception of the monks is still true. I can't speak for everyone but a large majority are peaceful, honorable, religious people. They've endured hardships for 50 years which goes to show how much they put up with.

'All bets are off now that it is plainly clear it is nothing but another corrupt political body.'- Toma

Political body? People demanding human rights and voicing their opinions is now a corrupt political body? Take a close look at China and ITS corrupt political body.

'That is one of those events that really has been curious. Would love to know what really happened..... guess we will never see an unbiased version of the event.' -Toma

You should talk to the people that were actually there. There are survivors here in Calgary that have vivid memories of what was happening.
Unbiased reports? You mean any report that supports the Chinese government... otherwise a report is biased and the writer/agency gets a mass amount of hate mail, spam, virus', threats, etc along with petitions against anyone else that supports ethnic groups in China.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[ZenOps]

Tibet was never a part of China IMO.

Tibet in the 13th century was actually populated by a very militant group of mounted warriors. They managed to repel Chinese forces, and were considered to be somewhat primitive and backwards.

Do most Chinese see Tibetans as irrrationally violent, yes. Does the western media portray Tibetans as utopian pacifist angels, yes.

Thats one of the reasons the Great wall was put where it was - to define the borders between civilization and not. Yes, Tibetans do still sheaf wheat with scythes - by hand - so there is some truth to this idea. Many african nations scythe wheat by hand.

China has a lingering military respect for Tibet - its ancient heritage of being able to repel Chinese military advance (maybe because of the enchanced terrain of the mountains, which was impassable before the advent of air travel and/or mechanization of military assets) way back when - makes China feel that Tibet is a long lost brother who won many fistfights way back when - but is now so incredibly weak hiding out in their own utopia that is no longer defendable. The Jackals are gathering to feed on Tibet - and its not the Chinese. If China leaves Tibet today, you can almost be assured that a Euro nation will step in tomorrow (which one is up to some debate, but I'm thinking British) Which I'm sure is what Rob Anders would like - more land for whites only and an easily manipulated or cullable native populace.

The greatest fear I have (I say that a lot) is that China actually *wants* a Euro nation to take over for say 99 years and brutalize the populace. Look what they got with Hong Kong - after 99 years of *learning* from the British - they now have an economic base that they can tax for much higher than anything they could have created in a century themselves. China is unwilling to cull or modernize or put under the whip - the generalized Tibetan populace. But if they give Tibet to Britain for 99 years, the British will definitely whip them into shape - and will be much better off when returning to Chinese rule a century from now. (Call me a conspiracist - but this is my primary line of thinking) What will legitimize it - is if the Dalai Lama asks for "foreign" assistance.

"Be careful what you ask for - you just might get it." Is the advice I have for the Lama.

During WWII, if the nuke had not been invented. Tibet being German sympathetic at the time, would have been used as a base for shelling outer China. It would have been a perfect ally for Germany as it also would have provided food - which basically stopped the German advance in Russia. Russians destroyed their crops (poisoned them as well) before retreating, causing Germans to starve in the brutal Siberian winter.

Whether or not Tibet was german sympathetic is also moot IMO. If Germany managed to make it through Russia, they would have simply taken the land, food, and killed the local populace (with no better weaponry than single shot firearms) of Tibet without a second thought.

BTW: Never ceases to amaze me, that Russia built over a million tanks, some with incredibly thick plate armor and guns that would punch a hole through several buildings - and yet what is mostly credited with slowing the advance of Nazi troops was the winter and food shortages.

[Subwoofah]

International attention doesn't seem to phase the Chinese government. It has hundreds, if not thousands, of people working to 'edit' the news and discounts any differing news as 'biased' or 'racist' editors. Propaganda is one of the main weapons of a communist state.

"The Dalai Lama has himself number of times stated that he will go to Tibet only as a religious leader. The provincial government at Lhasa would be elected by the people. The old feudal system would not be brought back." - Middle Path (Dalai Lama's approach to solving Tibet/China issue)

ZenOps- You keep going back to stating history. There is nothing gained from talking about the past and what has happened. I can go on about Chinese atrocities but you obviously overlook all of them. Being part of China is what the Dalai Lama wants. Having another country take over makes no sense in solving the Tibet issue.

[OH-EIGHT]

lol tianamen square never happened
it was made up by the media

[01RedDX]

.

[Subwoofah]

For any Chinese interested here is a facebook group with some more information on tianamen.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/-Tiananmen-Mothers/52119319766


"The Tiananmen Mothers is a group of individuals whose family members were killed or wounded during the brutal crackdown of the pro-democracy movement in Beijing, China, in 1989. The exact causality figures are unknown because the Chinese authorities have never carried out an independent investigation on this event.

In early 1990s, a few family members began to document information of those who died or injured during the crackdown and started to publicize the information they had, which the Chinese authorities have remained silent over the past 20 years. After this, the Tiananmen Mothers have been place under constant harassment and surveillance.

Since 1995, the Tiananmen Mothers have sent open letters to the National People’s Congress, the highest decision-making body in China, calling for: 1/ the right to mourn peacefully and in public; 2/ the right to accept humanitarian aid; 3/ no more persecution to the Tiananmen Massacre victims, including those injured and the Massacre and families of the dead; 4/ the release of all people still suffering in prison for their role in the Pro-democracy Movement in 1989; and 5/ a full, public accounting, for the Tiananmen Massacre, ending the impunity for the perpetrators.

It was once that there were 127 individuals with similar background who joined as members of Tiananmen Mothers. Over the years, 19 died because of old age.

* This page is created by the Hong Kong-based Tiananmen Mothers Campaign."

[mucat]

Originally posted by ZenOps

Look what they got with Hong Kong - after 99 years of *learning* from the British - they now have an economic base that they can tax for much higher than anything they could have created in a century themselves. China is unwilling to cull or modernize or put under the whip - the generalized Tibetan populace. But if they give Tibet to Britain for 99 years, the British will definitely whip them into shape - and will be much better off when returning to Chinese rule a century from now. (Call me a conspiracist - but this is my primary line of thinking) What will legitimize it - is if the Dalai Lama asks for "foreign" assistance.


China does not receive tax from Hong Kong (Unlike the British)...at least until 2047 (after 50 yrs). The Hong Kong situation is totally different. Hong Kong was a port to begin with, Hong Kong people are less Religious and more practical (money). Tibet got sand and dry weather to encourge nosepicking and lots of crazy monks, it is just difficult to work with nothing. Unless, unless they build lots of casinos there... :)

[mazdavirgin]

The truly sad thing is that some people are so caught up in the propaganda and information control by Chinese government. We could take them, sit them down in Machall in front of the statue in the lobby and most would not have a clue what it represented. The fact the statue has stood for so long without being defaced by the crazy pro Chinese government folk is a pretty sad tale in it's own right. They don't even know the symbols against which they should be outraged since it was all a big gigantic CIA lie.

[ZenOps]

History is what makes and defines military alliances today. To ignore history is to deny the achievements and atrocities of the past.

You cannot simply discount history. And historically - Tibet hasn't really been a shining example of peace. Only in somewhat relatively recent history - and even as such the 'government' is still very totalitarian where you have the Lama's at the top - and a servile community of almost less than slaves at the bottom.

"A willing slave, is still a slave"

If Tibet needs 'freeing' they most certainly need to be freed of their near mind controlling, destiny crushing Lama masters before they are freed from China. Little steps first, but I do believe they need to be freed from both masters - and a potential european master as well.

IMO - It's not happening in my lifetime.

[ZenOps]

Originally posted by mucat


China does not receive tax from Hong Kong (Unlike the British)...at least until 2047 (after 50 yrs). The Hong Kong situation is totally different. Hong Kong was a port to begin with, Hong Kong people are less Religious and more practical (money). Tibet got sand and dry weather to encourge nosepicking and lots of crazy monks, it is just difficult to work with nothing. Unless, unless they build lots of casinos there... :)

Direct taxation is unimportant, only the British demand money for land lease. Control over what comes and goes is whats important.

Remember - taxation means nothing if you 'are the money'. If you've got a Queen head on your coinage or currency (Cdn dollar or British Pound) then you are automatically paying into British imperialism.

BTW: I'd like to see what the farmers in Tibet would do when faced when forced to pay visible taxes into the British Monarchy. Would they rebel? or would they simply go on about their business. My moneys on they would just keep on doing what they are doing now - and giving less to the Lamas and more to the Queen, perhaps without them even knowing it.

I would LOL when the first Tibetan could not afford the taxation on his land and was kicked off it. Those British - cheeky bastards, lol.

Whip them Tibetans into the 21st century :whipped: The world ain't big enough for lazy ass cultures that stand still for 5 centuries. Tibet is almost as lazy as a Canadian MP who works two years on a one paragraph statement that ends in "Go Stamps go"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HPLJ6bx2V4

[ZenOps]

Tiananmen has almost nothing to do with Tibet.

Its like saying the LA race riots somehow bankrupted California. Sure they are in the same area - and sure they definitely both have to do with governments. But to make the leap that one incident has anything at all to do with government policy in another area is well, just wrong.

Why is it that Tiananmen is the only incident people can recall when complaining about the Chinese government - surely there are hundreds of other incidents that one can recall?

[AG_Styles]

As someone living in China (due to work posting) atm, I can tell you that the citizens here believe that the Dalai Lama is a bastard that is turning the world against China. Apparently he travels all over the world corrupting politicians and citizens against China. It is surprising to hear what the people of China think of him despite me telling them anything else.

Anything involving Tibet is censored. That includes youtube atm since someone posted a video covering the tibet issue last month.

On the flip side, there are people here that literally worship Mao to the point of having his statue in their cars. This is mostly the older senior citizens though.

[OH-EIGHT]

is it true that most young people in china either don't know much about the tianamen events or don't care about it?

[Subwoofah]

Originally posted by AG_Styles
As someone living in China (due to work posting) atm, I can tell you that the citizens here believe that the Dalai Lama is a bastard that is turning the world against China. Apparently he travels all over the world corrupting politicians and citizens against China. It is surprising to hear what the people of China think of him despite me telling them anything else.

Anything involving Tibet is censored. That includes youtube atm since someone posted a video covering the tibet issue last month.

On the flip side, there are people here that literally worship Mao to the point of having his statue in their cars. This is mostly the older senior citizens though.

Censorship of Tibet is exactly why there is so much misinformation. The general Chinese populace gets most, if not all of their news from the Chinese government. There is going to be nothing good said about Tibet or Tibetans.

Honestly, do you think the Chinese government is going to tell the truth about anything that makes them look bad? They're even censoring the earthquake victims from a few months back.

(In case you missed it)
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-china-quake11-2009may11,0,3636812.story


Originally posted by ZenOps
You cannot simply discount history. And historically - Tibet hasn't really been a shining example of peace. Only in somewhat relatively recent history - and even as such the 'government' is still very totalitarian where you have the Lama's at the top - and a servile community of almost less than slaves at the bottom.

Where are you getting your information for the Tibetan government from? I did not vote ANY lama's into office and do not see any lama's "at the top". And I am certainly not anyones slave neither is any other Tibetan I have ever known.


Originally posted by ZenOps
If Tibet needs 'freeing' they most certainly need to be freed of their near mind controlling, destiny crushing Lama masters before they are freed from China.

Destiny crushing and mind controlling is exactly what the Chinese government does to its citizens.


Originally posted by ZenOps
Why is it that Tiananmen is the only incident people can recall when complaining about the Chinese government - surely there are hundreds of other incidents that one can recall?

Tiananmen is one of the incidents where the you can actually see the Chinese government putting down its own people. They admit to doing these things but blame the CIA for giving Chinese people the idea of choice and freedom from the CCP. Nowadays they don't even teach Chinese about Tiananmen...

[ZenOps]

Originally posted by OH-EIGHT
is it true that most young people in china either don't know much about the tianamen events or don't care about it?

I'd say both.

On a similar note:

Most Chinese didn't really care that Chinese women were not allowed to immigrate into Canada until after 1947. Chinese men were of course allowed in before that, many migrated starting in 1885 but there were some very early ones that tried to catch the gold rush before that.

Why didn't Chinese really care that they couldn't bring women into the country? Because if the government was going to create a law like that - this country was still considered to be too brutal and backwards to bring in a Chinese flower. Not forgotten were the 1800's cullings of natives (and worse for the women) - which a suntanned Chinese person could be mistaken for.

Chinese will only take over areas when they are basically forced to (very unlike the British and French) Chinese would rather seclude themselves from "uncivilized" areas. Tibet and mid 1900's Canada included.

Tibet = sheaf wheat by hand = uncivilized = not modern = occupy *only* if some weenie nation like Nazi Germany is about to roll over their skulls with tanks.

Canada = Rob Anders = White Supremacist = not modern = live here only to piss the %$^& out of him = no other reason for me anyhow. Let a dignified Chinese woman be within 500 yards of Rob Anders - not on your life.

If Tibet were really forced into Exodus by the millions - I wonder how many would be allowed into Canada. Probably less than 1%. Most are pennyless farmers who again - sheaf wheat by hand with no skills and very little training. Even by todays rules - they need a minimum amount of education and some are even calling for basic english or french language skills.

So don't be pushing China all that hard, when Canada is probably just as bad on human rights.

[ZenOps]

True, Chinese tend to omit Tiananmen from the history books.

But then again the US tends to omit the fact that they basically blew up 1021 nuclear bombs (over 100 atmospheric) within US borders from 1951 to 1962 (Nevada test site)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_fallout_exposure.png And no that is not a map of republicans vs democrats (although it does make for an interesting conspiracy theory)

It wasn't determined until much later than 3 rads was actually pretty devastating, and without doubt greatly increased cancers of every type. There are some estimates that over 1 million people have unnecessarily died because of increased cancer risk in the US solely because of the testing of 1,021 nukes in Nevada.

All governments hide their atrocities directed upon their own citizens. Like Rob Anders is trying to do.

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by ZenOps
So don't be pushing China all that hard, when Canada is probably just as bad on human rights.

:facepalm: Your utter lack of logic is astounding. It is really an art form to write so much but to fail so completely at forming an argument. Read over your paragraphs again and try to actually find the point/argument. Back to English class with you...

[ZenOps]

Originally posted by mazdavirgin


:facepalm: Your utter lack of logic is astounding. It is really an art form to write so much but to fail so completely at forming an argument. Read over your paragraphs again and try to actually find the point/argument. Back to English class with you...

Most white people can't see the other side. Its why Rob Anders exists.

"Three random men enter a hotel with the intent of renting a room for the night. They come to the front desk and cannot find the owner, only the porter is there. The porter takes it on his own initiative to show the three men the room they have left. Upon arriving at the room and finding it of acceptable quality they decide to pay for the room right there.

Being fair and not wanting to make the long walk back to the front desk, each of the three men pull out a $10 bill and hand it to the porter for him to give to the owner ($30 total). The porter returns to the front desk and finds the owner. The owner states to the porter that the room is only $25, and hands five one dollar bills to the porter to give back to the three men. The porter heads back to the room with the money, but knowing that the three renters will probably never know the difference – the porter pockets two of the bills for himself in the hallway. When the porter finally enters the room, he hands each of the three men one dollar back.

How much did they pay for the room?"

You will find that about 60% of the population will give one answer, 25% a different answer, and 5% an answer that is rarely given, and 10% that will actually give the right answer.

Employers will often give the opposite answer of an employee.

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by ZenOps
Most white people can't see the other side. Its why Rob Anders exists.

:rofl: Where did we find someone like yourself? Racist ad hominem attacks? Well done you are a master of debate and argument! Your non nonsensical story is silly there is only one right answer but plenty of people may get it wrong because they are little thick.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by OH-EIGHT
is it true that most young people in china either don't know much about the tianamen events or don't care about it?

It's 20 years since. Most who do care are either dead or exiled. 99% of the exiled one are enjoying western luxuries to care about politics.

Kids these days knows about the incident but cares less. They care more about getting jobs and getting rich than worry about politics. It's the direct effect of the "towards money" policy set out by the government. Get the people focused on economy instead of politics.

There are still a lot of people still travel to HK to buy books recalling the whole event. But most just out of curiosity. Much like other citizens of the world, unless living is unbearable, one would prefer stability.

[01RedDX]

.

[OH-EIGHT]

seems like most mainlanders are pretty content with the way things are run right now (from the people i know)
as long as the money is flowing, they're happy

[ZenOps]

Originally posted by mazdavirgin


:rofl: Where did we find someone like yourself? Racist ad hominem attacks? Well done you are a master of debate and argument! Your non nonsensical story is silly there is only one right answer but plenty of people may get it wrong because they are little thick.

I *should* have said most white people in Canada don't get the right answer. Most Chinese people in China will not get the right answer either. So it definitely does depend on race, but is not so much racist as it is proletariat. A white person working as an aid worker in Africa is much more likely to understand the "right" answer.

Its a matter of conditioning, whoever happens to be dominant in the area - Is usually almost invariably is unable to see the "other side". Rob Anders is in the 5% category, which is usually only answered either by criminals or the aristocracy. Wife beaters are usually in the 5% category (IE: Henry VIII was a wife killer too)

Its a social (and psychological profile) question - not a math question. That is where most people go wrong, thinking that the answer is a singular number.

If you really want to delve deep into the psychosis of someone - ask them that question - and then give them five minutes to either keep their answer or change it after talking to a group of peers about it.

To fully understand how China is playing "bad cop" and Britain is playing "good cop", you pretty well have to be in the 10% who can answer that question properly. Tibet has no clue that they are about to trade up from a mild China - to a serious ass whipping. Its like leaving your socially inept and uneducated child to a military boarding school with corporal punishment - Almost necessary if the child lacks the basic ability to survive in a modern world.

I am 100% certain that this is the stance that Rob Anders and Stephen Harper would take as well. Their psyche profile would suggest they would tend to put out natives in Canada under the whip as well. Not that its necessarily the right course of action - or a popular one either.

OT: This question is of critical importance to computer chip designers and programmers as well. You must be able to understand the principle behind it or you will never understand why a computer chip is only about 80% to 90% correct on things like speculative branch prediction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microarchitecture#Branch_prediction

http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=2598

"A good example of how the engineering focus has shifted is branch prediction. Quite a bit of resources have been spent on the Pentium 4's branch predictor, involving a whole team of Intel engineers. The result was that, on average, the Pentium 4 branch predictor is accurate 95-97% of the time, while the P6 BPU was accurate only 90% of the time."

Many, many times, a computer chip will determine the wrong answer and must be rerouted through the pipeline on a predictive "miss" (Logic NOR NAND, but completely different answers based on where you poke the memory)

"Three equal random nations come to the UN with the intent of decomissioning nukes, being fair they give 10 nukes each to the diplomatic runner. The UN only requires 25 nukes be decomissioned...etc How many nukes were decomissioned?" - Is a suitable replacement for the room rental question when determining diplomatic skill.

And on a additional note: People from India tend to get this question right more often. Jewish faith people also tend to get the question right more often, as will career diplomats and humanitarians. Christians tend to get the answer wrong more often, and tend to blame others for "cheating" when they don't understand why.

[Subwoofah]

Originally posted by ZenOps

To fully understand how China is playing "bad cop" and Britain is playing "good cop", you pretty well have to be in the 10% who can answer that question properly. Tibet has no clue that they are about to trade up from a mild China - to a serious ass whipping. Tibet has no clue that they are about to trade up from a mild China - to a serious ass whipping. Its like leaving your socially inept and uneducated child to a military boarding school with corporal punishment - Almost necessary if the child lacks the basic ability to survive in a modern world.


You aren't listening...
Where are you getting your information from? Why are you talking about Tibet being ruled by Britain? I've told you that it makes more sense for Tibet to stay WITH China.

(In your own opinion) You've concluded that Tibet is still very backwards; that we are all like inept children that lacks basic survival skills? And that we need to be beaten?? First off thats pretty rude, almost racist. Please, we've hiked thousands of miles over the Himalaya's, crossed into countries(nepal, india, bhutan, etc) with just the clothes on our backs, established communities, educated our children, created a democratic government, and moved to developed countries to lead a better life. That was all in 40 years (at least for my family). How is that done by inept people?

I wonder...
How did you get here? Did you ask your family commi party member to get you a visa or scholarship for Canada? Is that why you hate Rob Anders so much? Because he supports groups that China feels threatened by (Falun gong, Tibet, Uygers and others)? That maybe you'll get a pat on the back from your party leaders? Jeez.


Oh and here's a bit more on Tiananmen... there still seems to be survivors or people that remember...
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/05/world/asia/05beijing.html

"
The organizers said 150,000 people joined the vigil, tying the record set by the first anniversary vigil in 1990 and dwarfing every subsequent vigil. The police estimated the crowd at 62,800, their largest estimate for any vigil except the one in 1990, which they put at 80,000.
"

[Sugarphreak]

.....

[hks]

Originally posted by OH-EIGHT
seems like most mainlanders are pretty content with the way things are run right now (from the people i know)
as long as the money is flowing, they're happy

ohhh the joys of capitalism

[Antonito]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


I don't know why people think we aren't exempt from these kinds of incidents because of democracy... anytime too many citizens start freaking out about something & things get out of control the military comes in and stomps them out, you are kidding yourself if you think otherwise;

A perfect example of a protest that got out of control; the military was brought in & 53 people lost their life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots

"On the fourth day, 4,000 Soldiers and Marines arrived from Fort Ord and Camp Pendleton to suppress the crowds and restore order"

This is probably the worst example you could have used. So many University demonstrations during the hippy era that were broken up by extreme US military force, and you used the LA Riots? :facepalm:

The LA riots were a "protest" for about 3 hours before general mayhem broke out.

If this is the example to be used, it does a good job of showing how China basically reacts to student protesting far more severely than the US reacts to full scale rioting. Good work

[iceburns288]

Originally posted by ZenOps
This question is of critical importance to computer chip designers and programmers as well. You must be able to understand the principle behind it or you will never understand why a computer chip is only about 80% to 90% correct on things like speculative branch prediction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microarchitecture#Branch_prediction

http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=2598

"A good example of how the engineering focus has shifted is branch prediction. Quite a bit of resources have been spent on the Pentium 4's branch predictor, involving a whole team of Intel engineers. The result was that, on average, the Pentium 4 branch predictor is accurate 95-97% of the time, while the P6 BPU was accurate only 90% of the time."

Many, many times, a computer chip will determine the wrong answer and must be rerouted through the pipeline on a predictive "miss" (Logic NOR NAND, but completely different answers based on where you poke the memory)
No.