How many mL are in an ice cube?

[Melinda]

Can anyone help me out? I've tried searching for this, but I can't seem to find a straight answer. Anyone know how many milliliters are in a standard ice cube (made from an old fashioned ice cube tray)?

[Kobe]

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090311005546AA2U9ZV

[nonlinear]

it depends on how big your cubes are. do you have one that you can measure the witdh, height, and length? volume= w*h*l. then just convert to the units you want.

or, if you have a graduated cylinder, you could use a small diameter stick to push the cube under water (e.g. toothpick), and measure the volume change in the water. that would be more accurate than estimating the volume via w*h*l.

or, melt a cube and mass it, and use density to convert to volume.

hahahah

[wardpr68]

"The perfect ice cube (one assumes there is a bartender consensus) is 55 millimeters, a little over 2 inches, in diameter. It's shape is spherical, ..."

[nonlinear]

i really doubt she has spherical cubes..

[sr20det]

Freeze the ice cube. Melt it. Measure the volume.

[Ashers]

Ahhh... but here's the trick. The volume of the actual liquid water placed in the tray, or the solid volume? Water changes volume greatly, dependent on temperature, as to why water lines burst in winter.

[Zero102]

If you can't accurately measure the volume of an ice cube, measure the weight. For your purposes using 1g/mL as the density of water would be close enough, and if you have a kitchen scale accurate to 0.1g then you are set. Just take an ice cube from the tray and put it directly on the zero'd kitchen scale. This way you don't have to worry about the change in volume due to the expansion or contraction of the water.

[Mar]

If I'm not mistaken, millilitres are measured based on the volume of water per specified space. So if the water's froze, it'll expand and the measurement for that space will be off.
In other words, I'm pretty sure millilitres only refers to liquid at sea level.

[urban.one]

Take one of those Pyrex measuring cups and fill it with water. Pour the water until you fill the tray. Subtract the amount remaining in your measuring cup from the capacity you filled it too. Divide that amount by the number of cubes in your tray and you should get the volume per cube. This should more or less give you a pretty accurate volume of liquid for your particular ice cube tray. (I dont think theres anything such as a standard ice cube tray - I think the ones that have come with every fridge Ive ever had have always been different. )

[Mibz]

The plane WILL take off!

[sputnik]

Why not just take a set of measuring spoons and measure the liquid as you fill one cell?

I can do it if you want... however right now I am researching what it takes to run a hot dog stand in Calgary and all of the implications of moving to California in 2015.

[Kloubek]

This is like asking the volume of an orange. Are we talking Mandarin? Navel?

While there might be recommendations, nobody can provide you the volume of a "standard" ice cube. The ice cube industry is largely unregulated....

[Mibz]

Originally posted by Kloubek
The ice cube industry is largely unregulated.... LOLed and Sigged.

[powerslave]

Originally posted by Mibz
The plane WILL take off!

But it's not moving!!!11

[ExtraSlow]

Originally posted by Kloubek
This is like asking the volume of an orange. Are we talking Mandarin? Navel?

While there might be recommendations, nobody can provide you the volume of a "standard" ice cube. The ice cube industry is largely unregulated....



Originally posted by Mibz
LOLed and Sigged.
Win!

[Mar]

Originally posted by sputnik
Why not just take a set of measuring spoons and measure the liquid as you fill one cell?

I can do it if you want... however right now I am researching what it takes to run a hot dog stand in Calgary and all of the implications of moving to California in 2015.

:rofl:
I didn't know about a hot dog thread, where's that?

[RecoilS14]

this is a very random conversation.

[cycosis]

Step 1: pour water into one compartment of standard ice cube tray.

Step 2: pour water from compartment into a measuring cup.

Step 3: freeze measuring cup.

Step 4: read measurement.

Step 5: why on earth do you want to know this?

[97'Scort]

Originally posted by cycosis
Step 1: pour water into one compartment of standard ice cube tray.

Step 2: pour water from compartment into a measuring cup.

Step 3: freeze measuring cup.

Step 4: read measurement.

Step 5: why on earth do you want to know this?

Step 6: ...profit?

[Power_Of_Rotary]

Originally posted by sr20det
Freeze the ice cube. Melt it. Measure the volume.

lol if u were serious....

freeze the "icecube"? let me help u rephrase this

freeze "water" into an icecube...then melt it and measure the water, which should equal the initial amount...

[Dave P]

this reminds me of one of thie xzibit comics.


yo dawg, i heard you like ice cube and drinking cold drinks, well i just put ice cube in your ice cube's so you can listen to ice cube while drinking a drink with ice cubes

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_fqEn0TJBG4c/SKrTaTFKs7I/AAAAAAAAAH4/R1Sq0jz9YDs/s400/xzibit.jpg

[A|pine]

Your statement is difficult to comprehend.

mL is the measurement for a liquid/fluid. Now an ice cube is a solid and its equivalent to mL is cc (cubic centimetre).

There are two ways you can go about this, to measure the amount of liquid in a standard ice cub you can use teaspoons approximately 5mL per teaspoon or a graduated cylinder (graduated cylinder being more accurate)

If you are to measure the volume of the ice cube, just by googling - the density of an ice cube is approximately 917 kg/m3.

To get this in grams/cm3 the conversion is:

kg/m3 x 1000g/kg x (1m/100cm)^3.

This gives you approximately 0.917 g/cc = 1.090512541 cc/g

Take your ice cube, measure its weight in grams with a scale (digital seeing how small/light an ice cube is), multiply it by the specific volume (1.090512541), and viola you have found the ice cube volume in cc. And yes it is true contrary to normal substances when water freezes its specific volume increases so an ice cube will have a larger specific volume than its liquid counterpart.

I should note that since i just I googled the density of ice, it is probably off a little. You would have better luck finding it in an engineering handbook. If you are really intent on finding the exact density at a certain temperature and pressure I can recommend some textbooks for further calculations. It is also interesting to note that glacial ice (eg: columbian ice fields) have different properties and densities throughout the glacier due to such large differences in pressure.

[Prolifique]

mind-fuck...where's Einstein when you need him...

[97'Scort]

Everybody's really into this for some reason, so with a little scientific rigour, I'll show you a good way to get it pretty accurate.

First, we need to find some proper gear. Kitchen equipment will be accurate enough for our means, +/- about 10%.

Apparatus:
1 x 500mL Pyrex measuring cup
1 x empty bucket (I like this ice cream pail, works well)
1 x relatively standard ice cube tray
1 x Sharpie marker
1 x case of beer (optional, but highly recommended)
http://www.kg-dj.com/images/IMGP0633.JPG

Start by finding a level that you wish to read to. In this case, my "4 litre" bucket actually held a little over 3 litres. So I used that as my baseline. Remember to measure to the miniscus, people! A handy Sharpie marker will let you mark the level.

http://www.kg-dj.com/images/IMGP0635.JPG
http://www.kg-dj.com/images/IMGP0636.JPG
http://www.kg-dj.com/images/IMGP0637.JPG

Next, I emptied the bucket and dried it out with a cloth to make sure no water was left behind.
http://www.kg-dj.com/images/IMGP0638.JPG

Then, I filled the ice cube tray to what I would consider a "normal" level, ie: what I would subconsciously fill it to if I wanted to put it in the freezer and make some ice. I picked the plateau between the cubes as my "height". This allows for the cells to be filled while the expanding ice would not stick to the next cube over. I defined this as my "ideal" ice cube in this tray.

http://www.kg-dj.com/images/IMGP0639.JPG
http://www.kg-dj.com/images/IMGP0640.JPG

After filling the tray, I carefully dumped it into the bucket. Bucket selection becomes critical here, as too small a container will prove difficult to keep the cascading water in check.

When I was done, I had used precisely 9 trays of water to fill my bucket to 3L:

http://www.kg-dj.com/images/IMGP0641.JPG

So some quick math:

3L/9trays = 0.3333 L/tray = 333.333... mL/tray

My tray has 14 cells, so that gives me ~23.8 mL per cube.

I did the experiment twice more, and achieved the same result +/- about 4 cubes overall, meaning my experiment was at least repeatable to within +/- 3.2%.

So hopefully that helps satisfy any questions people had :) Feel free to point out any mistakes, but I think this is about as thorough as I want to be for this kind of thing. :burnout:

[blackteg2]

^ willing to part out bucket?

[97'Scort]

Originally posted by blackteg2
^ willing to part out bucket?

Yeah but you have to take the lid too. Slightly used, no leaks, low km!

[iblizzard]

Oh my god... this is an amazing thread.

97'Scort, very well done on the example!!!
I'm impressed.

[97'Scort]

Well, this kind of ties in with this thread, so I'll post it here.

I'm attempting to figure out how this happened. After I finished the experiments, I decide to make some more ice since I emptied the tray to to the experiment. I go down to get a coke, and when I look into the ice container, I see this:

http://www.kg-dj.com/images/IMGP0647.JPG
(to all you stealthy camera sleuths, yes, I did take this picture last but I assure you that was EXACTLY how it was in my freezer!)

Close up:
http://www.kg-dj.com/images/IMGP0642.JPG
http://www.kg-dj.com/images/IMGP0644.JPG
http://www.kg-dj.com/images/IMGP0646.JPG

So, who's going to be the first to say the obvious?

[B4tMan]

I LOLd, pissed meself and LOLd some more

[colt22]

Originally posted by 97'Scort
http://www.kg-dj.com/images/IMGP0646.JPG

So, who's going to be the first to say the obvious? [/B]

this came to mind..

http://www.clovisusd.k12.ca.us/mv/Teacher%20Projects/1st%20Grade%20Insect%20Project/insect%20images/praying-mantis%5B1%5D.jpg

[dino_martini]

Originally posted by 97'Scort
So hopefully that helps satisfy any questions people had :) Feel free to point out any mistakes, but I think this is about as thorough as I want to be for this kind of thing. :burnout:

Question, what happened to your case of beer?

[97'Scort]

Originally posted by dino_martini


Question, what happened to your case of beer?

It has four less beer than when I started. Coronas are too small...

[msommers]

That icecube has a hard-on for you!!

[Prolifique]

LMAO to the ice cube hard on - proves that you can still be solid at minus *C conditions.
Three toed mango peeler searching for wicked lesbian infielder. Like screaming and marking territory with urine? Let's make banana enchiladas together in my bathtub. You bring the salsa.

[97'Scort]

Originally posted by Prolifique
Three toed mango peeler searching for wicked lesbian infielder. Like screaming and marking territory with urine? Let's make banana enchiladas together in my bathtub. You bring the salsa.

Wat?

Edit: yeah, that's the new sig for sure :)

[Prolifique]

I was typing out my response to this thread, and I accidently pushed CTRL+V and that's what came up... lmao

[nonlinear]

Originally posted by 97'Scort
Everybody's really into this for some reason, so with a little scientific rigour, I'll show you a good way to get it pretty accurate.

First, we need to find some proper gear. Kitchen equipment will be accurate enough for our means, +/- about 10%.

Apparatus:
1 x 500mL Pyrex measuring cup
1 x empty bucket (I like this ice cream pail, works well)
1 x relatively standard ice cube tray
1 x Sharpie marker
1 x case of beer (optional, but highly recommended)
http://www.kg-dj.com/images/IMGP0633.JPG

Start by finding a level that you wish to read to. In this case, my "4 litre" bucket actually held a little over 3 litres. So I used that as my baseline. Remember to measure to the miniscus, people! A handy Sharpie marker will let you mark the level.

http://www.kg-dj.com/images/IMGP0635.JPG
http://www.kg-dj.com/images/IMGP0636.JPG
http://www.kg-dj.com/images/IMGP0637.JPG

Next, I emptied the bucket and dried it out with a cloth to make sure no water was left behind.
http://www.kg-dj.com/images/IMGP0638.JPG

Then, I filled the ice cube tray to what I would consider a "normal" level, ie: what I would subconsciously fill it to if I wanted to put it in the freezer and make some ice. I picked the plateau between the cubes as my "height". This allows for the cells to be filled while the expanding ice would not stick to the next cube over. I defined this as my "ideal" ice cube in this tray.

http://www.kg-dj.com/images/IMGP0639.JPG
http://www.kg-dj.com/images/IMGP0640.JPG

After filling the tray, I carefully dumped it into the bucket. Bucket selection becomes critical here, as too small a container will prove difficult to keep the cascading water in check.

When I was done, I had used precisely 9 trays of water to fill my bucket to 3L:

http://www.kg-dj.com/images/IMGP0641.JPG

So some quick math:

3L/9trays = 0.3333 L/tray = 333.333... mL/tray

My tray has 14 cells, so that gives me ~23.8 mL per cube.

I did the experiment twice more, and achieved the same result +/- about 4 cubes overall, meaning my experiment was at least repeatable to within +/- 3.2%.

So hopefully that helps satisfy any questions people had :) Feel free to point out any mistakes, but I think this is about as thorough as I want to be for this kind of thing. :burnout:

the reason this isn't accurate is because water expands as it freezes. because ice density varies with circumstance, the only reliable method is water submersion. as i said earlier, you need to submerge an ice cube with a small diameter sitck (e.g. toothpick) and measure the change in volume.

EDIT: or, better yet, freeze a massive object (e.g. piece of lead) inside a cube, so that it will sink in water. then measure change in water volume. viola, volume of your ice cube! make sure to measure it fast, before the ice doesn't melt.

[The_Rural_Juror]

Why not make beer cubes?

[ExtraSlow]

Originally posted by nonlinear


the reason this isn't accurate is because water expands as it freezes. because ice density varies with circumstance, the only reliable method is water submersion. as i said earlier, you need to submerge an ice cube with a small diameter sitck (e.g. toothpick) and measure the change in volume.

Well, this is accurate for two out of three probable goals
Achieved 1) what is the mass of an ice cube? (volume of liquid water x density of liquid water = mass of liquid water = mass of ice cube, assuming no mass is lost to sublimation while frozen.
Achieved 2) what is the volume of water required to make an ice cube? (also useful for what volume of water will an ice cube displace when it's floating?)
did not achieve 3) What is the volume is a frozen ice cube?

Honestly, I think #3 is the least interesting question of the three, as it has no practical application in drink-making.

[97'Scort]

Originally posted by nonlinear


the reason this isn't accurate is because water expands as it freezes. because ice density varies with circumstance, the only reliable method is water submersion. as i said earlier, you need to submerge an ice cube with a small diameter sitck (e.g. toothpick) and measure the change in volume.

EDIT: or, better yet, freeze a massive object (e.g. piece of lead) inside a cube, so that it will sink in water. then measure change in water volume. viola, volume of your ice cube! make sure to measure it fast, before the ice doesn't melt.

I'm trying to think of this in such a way that your average person, after perhaps taking some controlled substances, would want to know the answer to "how many mL in an ice cube?" There are definitely a few ways to interpret this:

1. What is the displaced volume of an ice cube?
2. What volume of liquid water is contained in an ice cube?

I chose to evaluate the second option because a) it was much easier and less time consuming, and b) I can infer the answer to 1 from what I got. (http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/122Adensityice.html)

The reason I performed the experiment the way I did is I was able to determine the average liquid over 378 samples in mere minutes. If I was to determine the displaced volume of the cube, at the same sample rate, I would have needed 378 cube samples, which, frankly, I did not have enough beer to do.

So, if you feel like proving me wrong and evaluating a large sample of ice, be my guest. You cannot hope to achieve an accurate result by evaluating only one or two samples: you need to evaluate quantity and prove repeatability to be able to stand behind it.

[szw]

Alpine hit it bang-on. You don't describe a solid in "ml's".

[97'Scort]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
Achieved 2) what is the volume of water required to make an ice cube? (also useful for what volume of water will an ice cube displace when it's floating?)

My preferred reasoning for this is actually how much will two ice cubes dilute my scotch neat if I don't drink it before they melt? :devil:

[Kloubek]

Originally posted by 97'Scort
Feel free to point out any mistakes, but I think this is about as thorough as I want to be for this kind of thing.

The mistake is that you WERE this thorough. You, sir, most certainly have too much time on your hands...

[97'Scort]

^ Nah, it took me maybe half an hour to do the whole thing, including the write up and the pictures.

[nonlinear]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow


Well, this is accurate for two out of three probable goals
Achieved 1) what is the mass of an ice cube? (volume of liquid water x density of liquid water = mass of liquid water = mass of ice cube, assuming no mass is lost to sublimation while frozen.
Achieved 2) what is the volume of water required to make an ice cube? (also useful for what volume of water will an ice cube displace when it's floating?)
did not achieve 3) What is the volume is a frozen ice cube?

Honestly, I think #3 is the least interesting question of the three, as it has no practical application in drink-making.

well dude, the OP was asking for the volume an ice cube :facepalm:

the mass and volume of water in an ice cube are far easier to measure.

[nonlinear]

Originally posted by 97'Scort


I'm trying to think of this in such a way that your average person, after perhaps taking some controlled substances, would want to know the answer to "how many mL in an ice cube?" There are definitely a few ways to interpret this:

1. What is the displaced volume of an ice cube?
2. What volume of liquid water is contained in an ice cube?

I chose to evaluate the second option because a) it was much easier and less time consuming, and b) I can infer the answer to 1 from what I got. (http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/122Adensityice.html)

The reason I performed the experiment the way I did is I was able to determine the average liquid over 378 samples in mere minutes. If I was to determine the displaced volume of the cube, at the same sample rate, I would have needed 378 cube samples, which, frankly, I did not have enough beer to do.

So, if you feel like proving me wrong and evaluating a large sample of ice, be my guest. You cannot hope to achieve an accurate result by evaluating only one or two samples: you need to evaluate quantity and prove repeatability to be able to stand behind it.

:facepalm:

[97'Scort]

Originally posted by nonlinear


well dude, the OP was asking for the volume an ice cube :facepalm:

the mass and volume of water in an ice cube are far easier to measure.

You've got to be jerking me around here, that's the only reason I can see for your facepalming.

Did you even click my helpful little scientific link there? Where it shows the volumetric expansion of ice as a percentage of initial water volume?

[foos_guy]

Why doesn't the OP just take an ice cube tray, fill it with water, dump the water into a graduated cylinder, measure the mL of water and divide by the number of ice cubes in the tray?

10 mL of water is same as 10 mL of frozen water, but the frozen water will be bigger in size because ice is less dense... its just 10mL of water occupying more "space".

[97'Scort]

Originally posted by foos_guy
Why doesn't the OP just take an ice cube tray, fill it with water, dump the water into a graduated cylinder, measure the mL of water and divide by the number of ice cubes in the tray?

10 mL of water is same as 10 mL of frozen water, but the frozen water will be bigger in size because ice is less dense... its just 10mL of water occupying more "space".

Ok, nonlinear, THIS one deserves a facepalm, just for not reading the thread, haha :)

[Oldskool]

Originally posted by foos_guy


10 mL of water is same as 10 mL of frozen water, but the frozen water will be bigger in size because ice is less dense... its just 10mL of water occupying more "space".

:facepalm:

[ExtraSlow]

Originally posted by foos_guy
Why doesn't the OP just take an ice cube tray, fill it with water, dump the water into a graduated cylinder, measure the mL of water and divide by the number of ice cubes in the tray?

10 mL of water is same as 10 mL of frozen water, but the frozen water will be bigger in size because ice is less dense... its just 10mL of water occupying more "space".
You do know that ml are a measure of volume, and that "space" is volume, right?
Just checking . . . .

[nonlinear]

Originally posted by 97'Scort


You've got to be jerking me around here, that's the only reason I can see for your facepalming.

Did you even click my helpful little scientific link there? Where it shows the volumetric expansion of ice as a percentage of initial water volume?

nah, i was face palming cause you are changing the question :) OP asked for volume of a cube, not the volume of water in it, or the mass haha. also, you're trying to explain and convince me that replication is important... which is something most high school graduates know, not to mention phd scientists.

and no, I didn't read that link but i've done a lot of experimental and theoretical work involving phase changes of water, and I know it expands :)

[97'Scort]

Originally posted by nonlinear
nah, i was face palming cause you are changing the question :) OP asked for volume of a cube, not the volume of water in it, or the mass haha. also, you're trying to explain and convince me that replication is important... which is something most high school graduates know, not to mention phd scientists.

and no, I didn't read that link but i've done a lot of experimental and theoretical work involving phase changes of water, and I know it expands :)

I guess Melinda would have to chime in here and say what she meant by her question, I just took the quickest way of finding the result. Your method is just as accurate but way more time consuming. I was assuming you were not into the whole replication thing since you suggested a method that would be tedious at best to replicate.

The link there also says what the volume change is: about 9%. So if you want to know what the displacement of my ice is, it's about 25.9 mL.

[A|pine]

97 scort did it right kudos on the pictures and completion of the experiment, but I think my method will be better.



Originally posted by A|pine

mL is the measurement for a liquid/fluid. Now an ice cube is a solid and its equivalent to mL is cc (cubic centimetre).



There are two ways you can go about this:

1) to measure the amount of liquid in a standard ice cube you can use teaspoons approximately 5mL per teaspoon or a graduated cylinder (graduated cylinder being more accurate)

SOME water may evaporate during the freezing process but I would think it minimal.


2) If you are to measure the volume of the ice cube, first get the density of ice

Google gave me this: 917 kg/m3

Heat Transfer textbook gave me this: 920 kg/m3


To get this in grams/cc the conversion is:
kg/m3 x 1000g/kg x (1m/100cm)^3.


This gives you approximately 0.917 g/cc = 1.090512541 cc/g
or
This gives you approximately 0.920 g/cc = 1.086956 cc/g

- Take the ice cube and measure its mass

OR

- Take your ice tray of 24 ice cubes, break them all off and place them on a scale, take the mass and divide it by 24, now you have an average mass of 24 ice cubes, 48, (however many ice cubes you choose to freeze).

now you have a mass, of one ice cube, multiply it with the specific volume.

use either 1.0905 or 1.086956. This will give you the volume of the ice cube in cubic centimetres which is the equivalent (volumetric) to mL.

[Melinda]

Wow did this thread get crazy! Kudos to all who went to such great lengths to answer my question. It didn't need to be SO detailed though! :)

More details: I've been making various kinds of puree for my little man to eat. Until recently, I've been using an old school ice cube tray to freeze it all. He eats 2 cubes per meal, though I've never thought to figure out just how much that really is. But the ice cube trays were a pain, so I ended up getting little containers that would hold the whole meal's worth of food in one thing. Only catch was, I had no idea how much to fill it. At the time I posted this thread I actually hadn't thought about using measuring spoons at all, which is what I eventually ended up doing (my measuring cup is one of those big glass ones that start around 50ml).

So, thanks again to all of you, I appreciate the help and all of the effort :)

[abyss]

Uber random question = epic thread. Way to go Mel.

Now you just need someone to find out the difference in the densities between water and pureed peas? :rofl:

[Melinda]

I can confirm that most purees dont expand a whole lot once frozen :)

[97'Scort]

Hahaha well, I'm glad it all worked out in the end. I'm glad that you didn't ask the volume of mashed veggies you can fit in an ice cube tray, because then I'd be stuck with a lot of pureed goop.

[nonlinear]

nice work everyone! glad to hear the debate helped you solve your problem :thumbsup:

[foos_guy]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow

You do know that ml are a measure of volume, and that "space" is volume, right?
Just checking . . . .

I agree that ml is to measure volume, of a liquid. I guess when I read the OP asking for ml, I automatically thought liquid...

Hrm... guess my thinking is ol'skool...


ml replace cc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubic_centimetre)

[97'Scort]

I haven't even logged into this forum in two years. Probably more.

These photos don't even exist on my web server anymore.

I still get in excess of 900 failed page requests monthly looking for the photos.

Bravo, you weird bastards. Screwing up my monthly analytics report since 2009.

[theken]

why u no log in?

[msommers]

So did the plane take off?

[Mibz]

I LOLed hard again at "The ice cube industry is largely unregulated".

Sputnik, you still moving to Cali?

[sputnik]

Originally posted by Mibz
Sputnik, you still moving to Cali?

I was confused by my own comment after I just read it.

I think that was a joke I was making regarding another thread where some other Beyonder was asking other people to do their research for them.

[ExtraSlow]

Originally posted by 97'Scort
Bravo, you weird bastards. Screwing up my monthly analytics report since 2009.
I started reading on the first page, I'd forgotten about this thread. Once I hit my own post I started to clue in.

Also, this is sig gold!

[dirtsniffer]

I actually wondered a while ago what happened to Scort..:love:

[97'Scort]

Originally posted by dirtsniffer
I actually wondered a while ago what happened to Scort..:love:

I'm still around. Moved to the coast, got into a bit of a different industry where I'm not around cars as much.

On the plus side, I get to do shit like this now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1muaF48f6E

Been head lighting designer for that festival for three years now.

[Waldi]

It all depends who you asking , if the answer comes from accounting professional, he.she will stet " What do you want it to be?". I see lots of answers from engineering side, with precise calculation methodology that incudes application of measurment standards.