legality with shoot professional photos in shopping malls

[quazimoto]

I want to get some feedback from some photographers on this because I'm really unsure on it now.

I have some clients on August 1st of this year that want do a few wedding photos in and around eau claire mall. Up until this past weekend I didn't see the problem and was fairly excited to try it out.

I did a wedding in Regina and we used a mall there. Low and behold this security walks up to me and tells me I need a media release to take photographs since the mall is privately owned.

I thought back to when I first met with my attorney and he told me that you can more a less take photos in any premise so long as there is no signage stating that you can't. This mall had no such signage and we weren't creating any problems for any of the other people in the mall so I'm really now confused if I need to contact the malls directly for permission.

For the record we were just using the main parts of the malls and not any of the stores in particular.

[mboldt]

You definitely would need permission, I've been told to leave Eau Claire / put my camera away when sitting in the food court and playing with a new lens just shooting the empty table next to us. Any mall you go to will more than likely tell you this. Just contact the mall's security before hand, find out who you can talk to, and make arrangements. Chinook doesn't even want photos being taken in their parking lot / on their property even without public people, signage, anything. The best thing you can do is just attempt to give them as much notice as possible and talk to someone as high up and powerful in the admin as possible and make sure it's 100% OK and nothing last minute will slow things down or complicate it.

[Gibson]

I've had my cameras slung over my shoulders and have shot a few pictures in malls and never been told anything.

That being said, it is actually correct to get permission first, and if you're doing something like a wedding shoot, somebody is going to notice eventually.

[UndrgroundRider]

My wife and I did some wedding photos in Chinook about a month ago. Our photographer had to arrange it with security before hand. We were still hassled anyway when we showed up, and were basically rushed out towards the end.

They certaintly can't prevent you from taking pictures, but they do have the power to remove you from the property. In fact, a real "letter of the law" interpretation affords them the power to place you under citizen's arrest and detain you on grounds of trespassing if you don't leave when asked.

I would talk with security beforehand. If they don't agree to it, and you're still really interested in these pictures, I doubt anyone would actually stop you. Just be discrete with the cameras until you're where you need to be. By the time anyone gets there you will already have your pictures.

[mboldt]

BTW. At Eau Claire I was asked to remove all images I took on the premises from my memory card. and I was shooting for all of probably 10-15 minutes and it wasn't with people posing...

Your call though, I don't know if I'd personally risk it like UIndrgroundRider mentioned if permission was declined.

[quazimoto]

It's just very wierd. Oddly I worked for a couple that owns a security company in Calgary and even they are shocked by this. It was something they had never heard of before.

I'm beginning to find that it really depends on the security guards in the malls. Some really like being pricks when it comes to this I guess.

I spoke with my attorney this morning and he even confirms for me that they have no legal right to ask you to leave a premises for taking photos unless proper signage is indicated stating it's not permitted. He used the saddledome as a prime example where it's fairly obvious anyone with a decent DSLR would be tossed if caught. However they also have signs saying no photos.

I'm still trying to see what the major hang up over this is. I really don't get it myself. I mean why does the security in the mall care if a wedding party is there or not. If anything the people in the mall always just watch and start taking photos of the bride and groom themselves.

[Kloubek]

They take pictures of the bride, and groom themselves?

I think grooming is an action best done at home. :)

Seriously - security guards have a pretty sad job much of the time. They get into the position thinking they will have some sort of authority, when in reality they just stand there and do nothing. As such, many take it upon themselves to act like they have power whenever possible - and hence them flexing their "muscles" in situations like this.

Despite what your lawyer says though Quazi, I believe on private property, the guards DO have the right to ask you to leave. It shouldn't matter what the reason is. Similarily, if I hired a guard to watch over my house, and he asks someone to leave my house, I think they are obligated to do so.

[dr_jared88]

I'm assuming you were at Cornwall in Regina? If so those security guards are always on a power trip. If you sneeze the wrong way there, they'll try and kick you out. Other malls in Regina you probably wouldn't have this issue but unfortunately they don't have the character that Cornwall does.

I say try shooting and if you get away with it, you get away with it.

[kenny]

Originally posted by quazimoto
I spoke with my attorney this morning and he even confirms for me that they have no legal right to ask you to leave a premises for taking photos unless proper signage is indicated stating it's not permitted.

You should hire a new lawyer. A mall is private property, and they have every right to ask you to leave for any reason.

[UndrgroundRider]

Originally posted by Kloubek
Despite what your lawyer says though Quazi, I believe on private property, the guards DO have the right to ask you to leave.

Exactly. Malls are private property. Your lawyer must have misunderstood you and thought you were talking about public property.

[UndrgroundRider]

Originally posted by dr_jared88
I say try shooting and if you get away with it, you get away with it.

Just make sure your clients know there could be problems! Usually you're on a limited time table between the ceremony and reception, they may not want to risk it.

[sputnik]

Many tenants in malls have writing in their leases ensuring that security enforce a no photography policy.

Marketing is big business and in-store displays and prices are very well guarded.

This is the reason that you are not allowed to photograph in malls.

Essentially the mall is keeping its tenants happy.

[quazimoto]

The attorney isn't wrong actually. It is private property but is a common public gathering place where no admission or any specific rules are put in to force for people entering the area. He told me they can ask me to leave however they must call the police in order to have people removed from the property. Either way I did call eau claire market and what a shocker it's nearly impossible to get a hold of the property management company.

The odd part of this is the same couple that wants to do photos there also wants to get the groom fakely arrested by the police for some fun photos.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by quazimoto
The attorney isn't wrong actually. It is private property but is a common public gathering place where no admission or any specific rules are put in to force for people entering the area. He told me they can ask me to leave however they must call the police in order to have people removed from the property. Either way I did call eau claire market and what a shocker it's nearly impossible to get a hold of the property management company.

Incorrect.

The moment you walk through the doors and into the mall you are entering private property. There are also rules you must abide by as well. "No soliciting" would be one rule I can think of in particular.

They do NOT need to call the police to have you leave the building.

Walk into Chinook with a camera and start taking pictures of the mall if you want to test your theory.

[quazimoto]

You put to much into security guards. They really can't make you do anything since they legally can't touch a private citizen. They can of course call the police and then the police can forcibly remove people. I wouldn't do that for a wedding obviously. Still though when I try to contact the malls and the property management companies you get this run around and nobody seems to know anything. I talked to someone in their security department who was really baffled.

I believe there was a big issue with the government in letting some security companies have "security officers" as opposed to guards that would have a higher level of authority. Just for the record if a security guard did touch you and try to forcibly make you do anything it would be assault.

Loss prevention "officers" have a higher level of authority but only when stopping a criminal act.

[KKY]

As many have said above, mall security can ask you to leave for any sort of reasons including taking pictures. If you refuse, you're trespassing. No sign is needed. They can probably do a citizen's arrest too. However, they can't ask you to delete pictures you have taken. You own your pictures.

That said, I have taken the occasional pictures in Sunridge, Chinook, Marlborough, Market, Eau Claire, etc. multiple times without first asking permissions. Also did a family portrait shoot in Market Mall once. So I think it's very much up to the guards.

[Weapon_R]

Originally posted by quazimoto
You put to much into security guards. They really can't make you do anything since they legally can't touch a private citizen. They can of course call the police and then the police can forcibly remove people. I wouldn't do that for a wedding obviously. Still though when I try to contact the malls and the property management companies you get this run around and nobody seems to know anything. I talked to someone in their security department who was really baffled.

I believe there was a big issue with the government in letting some security companies have "security officers" as opposed to guards that would have a higher level of authority. Just for the record if a security guard did touch you and try to forcibly make you do anything it would be assault.

Loss prevention "officers" have a higher level of authority but only when stopping a criminal act.

You couldn't be more wrong. Security guards can and do arrest people all of the time if the need arises. They can also forcibly detain you if necessary.

[Kloubek]

Wow... a lot of conflicting "facts" in this thread.... :)

[sputnik]

Originally posted by Weapon_R
You couldn't be more wrong. Security guards can and do arrest people all of the time if the need arises. They can also forcibly detain you if necessary.

:werd:

Just last week I watched two security guards (one in uniform and the other in grubby street clothes) handcuff a couple 20-something girls who were shoplifting makeup from Sears.

It was weird because I was sitting in the benches near The Source (while my wife was in Thyme) and saw the uniformed guard standing in Thyme looking over a rack in my direction. Once the girls left Sears she and other guard proceeded to apprehend the shoplifters and walk them to the police station in the mall.

[Mibz]

quazimoto, even if your attorney were right (which I don't think he is but IANAL) you're forgetting there's a difference between "What the security guards have a legal right to do" and "What the security guards will do anyway".

You can scream your rights at them all you want, and 10 months later you might win a court case, but the fact remains that a couple's wedding day and memories are partially fucked and they're suddenly part of this long-winded legal battle that could have been avoided.

That is NOT a risk I would ever want to take, not for a wedding. Unless I got something in writing from Eau Claire that I could give to security before a scene was created, I'd stay the fuck away.

[5hift]

Originally posted by quazimoto
You put to much into security guards. They really can't make you do anything since they legally can't touch a private citizen. They can of course call the police and then the police can forcibly remove people. I wouldn't do that for a wedding obviously. Still though when I try to contact the malls and the property management companies you get this run around and nobody seems to know anything. I talked to someone in their security department who was really baffled.

I believe there was a big issue with the government in letting some security companies have "security officers" as opposed to guards that would have a higher level of authority. Just for the record if a security guard did touch you and try to forcibly make you do anything it would be assault.

Loss prevention "officers" have a higher level of authority but only when stopping a criminal act.

Judging by how long you've dragged this out, you honestly sound like you are just looking for trouble. It is private property, and can be enforced as such. This is like me saying if you have a nicely landscaped yard, I can bring groups onto it to take pictures without permission and if you try to physically remove me, you'd get assault charges?

[The_Rural_Juror]

The way I see it, the only person on here who knows anything about security guards is TDFTW.

[AccentAE86]

Dude, you gotta get permission. Seriously. Regardless whether you think it's in your legal rights or not, you NEED permission to have a hassle-free shoot.

I ALWAYS arrange for this whenever I shoot on private property. I've shot in many shopping and office buildings. You need to contact the operations manager of the building. They have rules in place that they want you to follow and be aware about, and 99% of the time they need to have you sign a waiver that says they're not responsible for any shit you disturb, any damage you do, or anything bad that might happen to you as a result from shooting in their mall. They basically want no responsibility whatsoever if you fuck up your shoot while shooting on their property. I probably do about 15 of these waivers a season.

When you arrive on the day of the shoot, you usually have to report straight to security and show them the paperwork so they know you are there and nobody will bother you. If you've properly done your homework, they'll usually actually be expecting you and are very nice following that. If they didn't know you were coming, they usually phone someone to make sure it's ok. I don't know why you're making a big deal out of this. This is basic, standard practice. How can you be shooting as long as you claim to be shooting and not have had to deal with this yet? Security is always really anal about photography in malls.

[quazimoto]

A situation where girls are being arrested for shoplifting is lost prevention officers and not security guards. It's quite clear when you are shoplifting that loss prevention officers can use the required force to detain you. Granted this is also why they have the title officer and not guard.

This is also one of the main reasons why they have the small police detachment right inside chinook mall.

Fortunately I got a hold of somebody at one of the malls I want to use and she more a less tells me that they are extremely flattered that we woudl want to use their mall for such a purpose and they have no issues at all with photographers using the mall for purposes of wedding photography. Oddly enough with the written permission from the property management company you can more a less tell the guards to leave you alone.

It seems like it is then a total case by case scenario that varies from security guard to security guard.



And to the question above this is probably the first time in roughly I would say 12-15 photoshoots in a mall where security has come up and said anything. On a couple occasions they have come up to congratulate the bride and groom but nothing else.

[Go4Long]

Originally posted by mboldt
BTW. At Eau Claire I was asked to remove all images I took on the premises from my memory card.


that they can't legally require you to do...there's a couple big threads around miranda and and dgrin about the legalities of shooting in public/private places. here't the first one I could find

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=66704

you may also try searching around the photo attorney site

http://www.photoattorney.com/

[ZorroAMG]

What I am wondering is who would shoot wedding photos at a mall LMAO...

Hey honey come stand over here, I love the way the Sbarro neon casts a glow about you....

[The Wanderer]

Many moons ago I remember this discusion came up (can't rememeber where) and I was refered to the following site:

http://ambientlight.ca/laws.php

the site is "This is a collection of Canadian laws, Provincial statutes and regulations, and some by-laws, which apply to photographers. Originally, this was a collection of laws specific to Toronto, Ontario, Canada, however, with growing interest in the subject, has grown to include laws from other provinces, and cities."

someone comented earlier in this post they where told to erase all pictures that wher taken in the mall. In the section on what not to do they adresse this and why one should not delete the photos.

hope this helps

[quazimoto]

It's really because some shopping malls in certain sections you can create some truly unique and interesting photos. The eaton centre in particular prior to the rennovations had some really great spots for photos.

I've now gotten a hold of property management companies from two of the three malls I was looking to use and both have stated they have no issues with photographers coming into the mall for the purposes of wedding photography at all. It does appear as if they have concerns when photographers are not using the premises for something so innocent. Either way it is something that is discretionary to the security in that particular mall.

Either way it's strange this is the first time a security guard has come up to me and said something...

[mboldt]

Originally posted by quazimoto
Oddly enough with the written permission from the property management company you can more a less tell the guards to leave you alone.

It seems like it is then a total case by case scenario that varies from security guard to security guard.


That written permission is a permit, a lot of the time security won't know any better and they'll ask you to leave to stay on the safe side of things and cover their own ass. Having that permit does tell security to leave you alone, unless you are disrupting things.

I've had to contact management for a parkade before and they didn't care at all and say go right ahead and shoot, but security during previous visits was EXTREMELY defensive and told us to leave immediately or the police would become involved. All depends where you are and who you are dealing with, but private property is private property.

[Isaiah]

Originally posted by ZorroAMG
What I am wondering is who would shoot wedding photos at a mall...
That's what I was thinking. Of all the places in and out of the city, the mall is the last place I'd ever want wedding shoot...unless of course they both work in the mall and it's a 'theme' wedding.

[justin.mah]

Well what if it's raining outside? I think a mall is a viable option for indoors.

But I think university or college grounds may be nicer... or at least less people.

[95EagleAWD]

Security Guards certainly can arrest you, depending on the powers they've been given. The guards at West Edmonton Mall are Peace Officers, are armed and have blue and red cherries on top of their cars. They have the same powers as Sheriffs and our Transit Officers (who are getting guns soon!)

[Cos]

I own my house and it is private property. But because my yard isnt fenced off and doesnt have signage telling you to stay off you can do what you want in it?

That, to me, sounds like how you are arguing this.


Also anyone can detain anyone, now security guards need to be careful not to use excessive force because it becomes assault. Now arresting is something you need your rights read for and can only be done by select government officials.

[quazimoto]

Sadly doing an engagement photo session at eau claire I can verify the security guards there are extremely ANAL even when you have written permission. I really don't get them it's quite crazy. Especially when the mall owners really don't care if people are there taking photos or not. Was there on wednesday and honestly was asked twice what I was doing and who gave me permission to be there by two guards who then proceeded to watch me the entire time.

Now yes your lawn is one thing. But do you allow people to go into your yard all the time without them asking for permission to come into your yard. It's really a common gathering area.

I'm also sure many photographers would tell you just how well some shopping malls can work for photos. I won't say all shopping malls since some are really ugly. The eaton centre and eau claire market in Calgary though have some very specific things you can use to make some good photos. Just requires outside the box thinking.