Lots of bike questions

[Ihatetowait]

I'm a car guy, not bikes. I likely wont understand half the terms for bikes most of you will use, but I'll try my damn best. What I need is total help finding a first bike. My plan is to buy the bike this year and learn to ride it with my buddy as my tutor and get my licence early next year once I've gained some experience. I'm even entertaining the "too cool motorcycle school" idea.

Basically, I don't want a crotch rocket. Everyone I know only knows ninjas, CBR's, GXXRs, etc.

My question is more or less what would a good bike be for under 2,000$? Begginer bike, 500-600 CCs, and something that rides upright moreso then a sport bike.

Honda nighthawk? From my reading them seem great.

Any and all help is appreciated to take me from 4 wheels to 2.

[atgilchrist]

1. Take a class - Too Cool is a good one.
2. Honda Nighthawk, Suzuki GS500 or SV650, etc are excellent bikes.

[Ihatetowait]

Originally posted by atgilchrist
1. Take a class - Too Cool is a good one.
2. Honda Nighthawk, Suzuki GS500 or SV650, etc are excellent bikes.

The course seems like a great idea, I was considering doing some parking lot training with my buddy first to get comfortable with the bike, mostly since I've never been on a bike...atv... snow mobile... anything other then a car.

I looked up the sv650 and it seems like a newer bike, is that something a guy could pick up for under 2K? The plan is to buy a cheaper bike and if it's something I get big into then invest into something newer, sweeter, and once i've learned something with good power.

[SOAB]

take the course first. don't learn your buddies bad habits.

they also have bikes for you to ride so if you drop it, it won't matter.

i think it would be tough to find an SV650 for less than 2k.

[Ihatetowait]

I do like the look of the nighthawks, I worry about buying an older bike though.

[B20EF]

I was surprised my insurance didn't care about bike school. They said all they cared about was how long I'd been riding, not if I'd taken a course.

[drtoohotty1]

http://forums.beyond.ca/st/262452/fs-vf500c-honda-magna/

[03ozwhip]

im in the same situation. just got my learners a few days ago, but bought my 05 R6 a week ago and obviously wanna take it out since its insured and registered.

i have the feel for dirt bikes, but have only ridden them a few times and never a street bike, ive only ridden this one up and down the block a bunch of times, but now that i have my learners, ill be riding around my town to get the feel for it before i do any hiway/city driving.

BUT im definitely doing riding school ASAP and even though i havent done it yet, i recommend anyone new to do it, especially these days considering how much shit is happening with people on bikes these days. good luck on the search, its very hard to find a good bike for 2k.

i got a SMOKING deal on my bike that im sure ill never find again, but i was looking everyday for the last 2 months, patience bro!

[Ihatetowait]

Thanks for the kind words guys... So insurance doesn't give a discount like AMA style driving?

I did reading on toocool school, and they seem really good about keeping people riding safe and having fun. I don't plan to be "that tool" driving in and out of cars but I would like proper training being i've only ever driven cars.

What are the things to look for when buying a really old bike>

[Ihatetowait]

Also, between the magna and the nighthawk... What's the difference?

[03ozwhip]

maintenance is key. oil changes, valves, tires etc. a bike can have 100k on it and ride perfect if it was maintained correctly.

[Dumbass17]

Originally posted by SOAB
take the course first. don't learn your buddies bad habits.

+1

take the course, you'll learn to ride and you actually get to go on an hour long ride on mainroads with your course instructures/fellow students

then you won't pick up your friends bad's habits, you'll probably even be able to give them some tips after riding with them!

[HondaG]

I second too cool motorcycle school! You will also save money on your bike insurance!

[Palmiros]

Lots of bike questions?

Lots of bike answers! -> http://forums.beyond.ca/st/264508/obtaining-your-class-6-insurance-gear-and-more/

[Graham_A_M]

Originally posted by 03ozwhip
maintenance is key. oil changes, valves, tires etc. a bike can have 100k on it and ride perfect if it was maintained correctly.

This. More so... Honestly: take the bike to get it inspected if you can at all. You'd be surprised at the number of bandaged up bikes that have been down, and down HARD that were repaired and listed as "like new".

I've seen quite a few bikes with bent subframes, bent frames or a myriad of other problems. Unfortunately, a slightly bent frame will mean the bike doesn't ride properly. This can cause a serious accident.
Problem is: this happens a fair bit I've found when it comes to the bargain deal type bikes. $2k is a low budget. I'd definitely fork over $150 for an inspection before buying anything in that price range. As quite often there can be problems with the bike that go un-noticed to the untrained eye.

Yes by all means take a course, Toocool is a good one.
Trevor Dech (the owner) is a great guy and a great instructor. My buddy has a Nighthawk in great shape. Shame as he doesn't even ride it. I may as well ask if hes selling it. :dunno:
but the honda CB550-1000's are good starter bikes, the Yamaha XS line up, the Yamaha Seca's, the The Suzuki GS's are all more classic styled bikes that go for peanuts.
Cool thing is they have absolutely bulletproof engines and just go forever if properly maintained.

Yeah good luck finding an SV650 for under $2k... sorry but. :(

[InLoveWitRSX]

can someone name some of these bad habits that people do?

[CUG]

Originally posted by InLoveWitRSX
can someone name some of these bad habits that people do?
-Not signaling enough
-Expecting other drivers to know you're there
-Improper use of brakes (100% front all the time, I actually knew a guy with 60,000km on his bike who had never used the rear brake EVER, it was seized)
-Inattention, as in day-dreaming while you ride - if you're not 110% on the road, you're as good as dead, only a matter of time.
-Any type of righteous attitude.
-Not learning the "right" way in the first place.

At least if you have a course or two you can get a good basis for what is proper and tailor it to your own operation of the bike.

Imagine bad driving habits with a 10x worse outcome for you.

[sjaswal]

you may want to look at a dual purpose style bikes. It will do better in slow speed manoevers, which the road test is mainly (or used to be). The bike will be really light too.

Some people, to bypass the "hard" test, do a scooter license which is also class 6, then ride motorbikes.

Good luck trying t get into a MSF program now, book in for next year, or late this year.

As for your friend teaching you, they may have taken MSF courses, so that may help. There are some basic things that your friend may overlook teaching you (things that may be second nature now), so that's why everyone recommends the course.

Most people seem to fail the road test even after the too cool training - something to think about.

[Masked Bandit]

One phrase to google....


UJM


That is the type of bike you are looking for and yes, the Honda Nighthawk & the Honda Magna both fall into that category. The UJM's are the perfect type of machine to start on.

A 1984 Honda Nighthawk 750 was my first bike and looking back it was the PERFECT starter bike. Easy to ride, enough power to make a new rider happy and STUPID reliable. It was a fantastic machine.

[Graham_A_M]

Originally posted by CUG

-Not signaling enough
-Expecting other drivers to know you're there
-Improper use of brakes (100% front all the time, I actually knew a guy with 60,000km on his bike who had never used the rear brake EVER, it was seized)
-Inattention, as in day-dreaming while you ride - if you're not 110% on the road, you're as good as dead, only a matter of time.
-Any type of righteous attitude.
-Not learning the "right" way in the first place.

At least if you have a course or two you can get a good basis for what is proper and tailor it to your own operation of the bike.

Imagine bad driving habits with a 10x worse outcome for you.

This. Yeah, NEVER use your back brake. If it locks up (which it can and will do quite easily) it'll scare the bejesus out of a new rider, as the back end will slide all over. I never use it unless Im approaching an intersection casually, and just trying to not wear out the front brakes as much.

Another few HUGE tips would be
- Always ALWAYS keep a very safe following distance, as in the 2 second rule.
-Check your mirrors often so you always know exactly whats happening around you ALL the time.
-Never assume somebody sees you or knows your there Especially towards intersections. Slow down and make *SURE* they see you. Way too often people assume there is no one there and make a left hand turn through an intersection and thus: get T-boned by a guy on a bike rocketing through the intersection.
- Follow the speed limits. Seriously. Its not easy on a bike since there is SO much power there but just follow the speed limits always. You're that much more easy to spot with other motorists, and you wont get yourself into a tangle you can't handle that way.


BTW, Josh can you give me Angus' number? I need a new rear ASAP!
thanks.

[BrknFngrs]

Originally posted by Graham_A_M


This. Yeah, NEVER use your back brake. If it locks up (which it can and will do quite easily) it'll scare the bejesus out of a new rider, as the back end will slide all over. I never use it unless Im approaching an intersection casually, and just trying to not wear out the front brakes as much.

I believe the post you quoted was pointing out that not using both brakes (front and back) is incorrect. I would very strongly agree with this and this is consistent with what Too Cool will teach. You're much better using both brakes and being comfortable with both.

[turbotrip]

the back brake is just decoration

[ABteg00]

Originally posted by Graham_A_M


This. Yeah, NEVER use your back brake. If it locks up (which it can and will do quite easily) it'll scare the bejesus out of a new rider, as the back end will slide all over. I never use it unless Im approaching an intersection casually, and just trying to not wear out the front brakes as much.


thanks.

I'm sorry but this is the worst advice i have ever seen given to a new rider.

In the class they will show you that indeed you do use a mix of front and back brake. Yes you do mostly use the front brake but to say never use the back brake is just stupid

The guy in the post u quoted was saying its a BAD thing that his friend had never used the back brake.

[CUG]

Just to clarify, I use my rear brake ALL the time. It takes practice because you don't get the same feel/response using your foot like you would with your hand.

Back brake combined with front brake, when used properly is a stopping powerhouse.

[Graham_A_M]

Originally posted by ABteg00


I'm sorry but this is the worst advice i have ever seen given to a new rider.

In the class they will show you that indeed you do use a mix of front and back brake. Yes you do mostly use the front brake but to say never use the back brake is just stupid

The guy in the post u quoted was saying its a BAD thing that his friend had never used the back brake.

Perhaps. For me this holds true, as it does for other riders too I've found. Im just wanting to see things from your point of view, but short of dealing with braking on dirt roads, gravel and other contaminents on the road; would you care to enlighten me on the advantages of using the back brake?
I cant think of anything significant short of slowing down in gravel covered road or whatever else. :dunno:

[codetrap]

Originally posted by Graham_A_M


Perhaps. For me this holds true, as it does for other riders too I've found. Im just wanting to see things from your point of view, but short of dealing with braking on dirt roads, gravel and other contaminents on the road; would you care to enlighten me on the advantages of using the back brake?
I cant think of anything significant short of slowing down in gravel covered road or whatever else. :dunno:


http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=motorcycle+braking+techniques&btnG=Google+Search&meta=&aq=1&oq=motorcycle+braking+

[bjstare]

Originally posted by Graham_A_M


Perhaps. For me this holds true, as it does for other riders too I've found. Im just wanting to see things from your point of view, but short of dealing with braking on dirt roads, gravel and other contaminents on the road; would you care to enlighten me on the advantages of using the back brake?
I cant think of anything significant short of slowing down in gravel covered road or whatever else. :dunno:

From the first hit on the google search posted above:
"The front brake is the most effective, giving between 60 & 80% of the bike's stopping power in hard stops..."
This means the rear brake is good for 20-40% of your braking power. That a good enough advantage for you?

Also, if the rear helps you "slow down" on gravel, think it might help you slow down even better on a smooth, sticky surface.... like asphalt?

Edit: Typing > Me

[SJW]

Remember....a motorcycle licence is a privilege not a right.

[03ozwhip]

theres some decent advice in here. im a new rider myself and have only used the rear brake once and i onnly used it to see how it feels compared to the front and obviously its not as good. i would say that i would probably use it coming into intersections as a habit an just to be familiar with it and to not use the front as much. it is a brake, its meant to be used but at the right times, as new riders, we need to figure out when those times are.

[Unknown303]

I use the rear brake. Just don't stomp down on it like your curbing someone. If you only were supposed to use the front brake I'm sure they wouldn't have installed them in bikes.

[Eleanor]

I almost exclusively use my rear brake :dunno:

The only time I use the front is if I need to stop quickly, otherwise the front doesn't get touched, it's also hard to rev-match downshift and use the front brake at the same time.

[ABteg00]

Originally posted by Graham_A_M


Perhaps. For me this holds true, as it does for other riders too I've found. Im just wanting to see things from your point of view, but short of dealing with braking on dirt roads, gravel and other contaminents on the road; would you care to enlighten me on the advantages of using the back brake?
I cant think of anything significant short of slowing down in gravel covered road or whatever else. :dunno:

Your enlightenment is in the posts below yours. Think of it this way: IF your back brake accounts for around 20% of your bikes brake power, even in a low speed situation that could give you an extra foot or two of grace between you and an obstacle. And I'm sure every rider on here has had a close call that even a foot or two would make a huge difference.

Please in the future do not give advice as vital as motorcycle braking to beginners if you yourself could still learn a thing or two

[Graham_A_M]

^ LOL, Nice :nut:. I can appreciate the mentality you have towards the value of the extra 20% in braking power. I can, and I respect that. What I was referring to was the added attention a new rider would have to give to threshold brake with the fronts AS WELL AS threshold brake with the rear too. It can be really daunting for a new rider to use both at the same time to the maximum of their ability. Particularily if the rear locks up under heavy braking with the front in particular.
With that in mind if a rider uses the fronts to the fullest of their ability (and only the fronts) they can still slow the bike down quite safely and effectively.

[ABteg00]

Originally posted by Graham_A_M

With that in mind if a rider uses the fronts to the fullest of their ability (and only the fronts) they can still slow the bike down quite safely and effectively.

On the track I have done all out stops from 150k using front break only, rear break and with both. Its really interesting how much faster you actually stop using both.

Most people don't know that you are supposed to do emergency stops with the clutch in and down shifting too.

If you got a rear break, learn how to use it safely and effectively.

theres no reason not to use it, but tons of reasons why you should

[Graham_A_M]

^ To each his own. On Race city coming off the front straight on my way into Turn #1 the ass end is just skimming the ground when I haul on the fronts to slow myself down from 280 to (thereabouts) 120-150kph.
Since its just BARELY even touching the ground, I'd say at that point it would account for maybe 2-5% of braking capacity. I've found its incredible how much later then mostly everybody else I can brake into that turn using just my fronts. Typically everybody starts braking a good second to two seconds before I do, whereas (even Im by NO means "Fast") I've been able to typically pass quite a few riders on turn 1 alone. Again with the other riders, the only time I see a useful time to apply the rear is through the Chicane as it helps stand the bike up I've noticed.

Thats why I said what I said, no I did not mean dismiss the use of the back brake in all its entirety. Absolutely it does have its uses, but in my experience I've learnt to concentrate 100% of my efforts on the fronts and have had no problems whatsoever with panic/emergency or hard braking. :dunno:
From there I dont see why any new rider would be any different short of braking under different road conditions.

[ABteg00]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuDHHhDHzD0

I know it doesn't say WHY they use the back brake, but they def do. You can see them tapping it as they come into the corners, alot of time they get the back wheel out too.

I know using moto gp is an extreme example,
But if i saw MJ using a jump shot,
your damn straight i would be practicing my jump shot.

There is no reasonable excuse not to use your back brakes, while stopping as quick as possible

[Graham_A_M]

^ Backing the rear into a corner is absolutely the reason to use the back brake. I didn't mention that obviously since that technique is ***WAY*** over the head of any novice rider. But yes you are absolutely right the pros use the rears for negotiating different lines throughout the corners and so on and on.

Again, all that is way beyond the scope of pretty much every rider reading this thread so I didn't mention that, but yeah proper use of the rear can really make or break track riding I've noticed even on track nights alone. :dunno:

Apparently backing the ass end into a corner is a great technique at times.... but I think I'll learn it on my dirt bike before trying to apply it to my sportbike at the track :rofl:
I can see that ending in some absolutely vicious high-side if not properly executed :(

[CUG]

I don't think there should be too many people in here talking about backing the bike in in this thread. I've fucked with it a little bit, but you need to be completely familiar with ALL of the bikes behaviors before even talking bullshit about it.

There's nothing wrong with using just your front brake, there's just extra braking in the back brake to help and stabilize a little bit. Proportionally if you use both, it only makes sense that your braking power is increased... the trick, I suppose is knowing when to use it if you're not braking in a straight line, but when you're trailing into corners, or using it to load the suspension for better corner speed/better drive out of a corner.

[ABteg00]

yeah for sure,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Ow9W0MIac

think of how great that would feel. While you do make some good points I still think it is best for a beginner to learn how to break ''properly'' right from the get go, as apposed to learning how to factor the back brake in down the road, and the instructors at toocool must agree because that is how I was taught when I took the class.

[96integra]

Trevor taught that you should always use both. The front accounts for most of the stopping power and the rear is to stabilize the bike.

[Graham_A_M]

Originally posted by CUG
I don't think there should be too many people in here talking about backing the bike in in this thread. I've fucked with it a little bit, but you need to be completely familiar with ALL of the bikes behaviors before even talking bullshit about it.

There's nothing wrong with using just your front brake, there's just extra braking in the back brake to help and stabilize a little bit. Proportionally if you use both, it only makes sense that your braking power is increased... the trick, I suppose is knowing when to use it if you're not braking in a straight line, but when you're trailing into corners, or using it to load the suspension for better corner speed/better drive out of a corner.

Yeah thats just it though. The reason why I dont do any more track days (or race schools with Brad) is that Rat City raceway is the worst track imaginable for a bike rider. Not so bad for a car, but for a bike the patch work is just too much. I loathe that track, as its just a gong-show... honestly.

I wish we had a decent track to practice on. I can't believe how shitty we have it. :thumbsdow
I just feel its a waste of money doing track days here.
Too bad as Brads a wicked teacher and I'd love to learn how to be "fast" but $200 for a track night (including gas & tires) its almost a waste.
SO many fantastic riders over at www.calgaryunderground.com, I've learned a lot from them alone. :dunno:
But yeah as what I've stated in this thread... proper use of the rear is definately not over-rated, but perhaps too much (early on) For a novice rider. :dunno:

[SNAATCH]

Wow, there is so much bad advice in this thread.

-You should be using your front and rear brakes as much as possible, especially when coming to intersections. Become accustomed to it so WHEN there is an emergency you will know exactly what to do and control the bike. It's a good idea to try threshold braking in a parking lot or when coming to intersections.

=Try not to ever have to brake while you are in a corner, that way you are always braking when traveling in a straight line. This will not only allow you to take the corner smoother, but so that you have more control coming in and out of the corner.

-Also taking a beginners "course" won't teach you much at all. Unless you don't know where the throttle, brakes, and clutch are and want to ride a dirt bike around a parking lot. I know a few riders who went and took a beginners "course" and didn't learn anything they didn't know already.

-The best courses to take are ones where you bring your own bike and they take you out on the track and teach you how to corner properly as well as brake. Testing the bikes limits is the only way you will know how to control it in any situation.

That's just my opinion. Ride safe everyone.

[CUG]

There's a dude over there who wiped out pretty bad at the track last Saturday, turned into a thread about gear Graham. RC is brutal for sure.


Originally posted by SNAATCH
Wow, there is so much bad advice in this thread.

-You should be using your front and rear brakes as much as possible, especially when coming to intersections. Become accustomed to it so WHEN there is an emergency you will know exactly what to do and control the bike. It's a good idea to try threshold braking in a parking lot or when coming to intersections.

=Try not to ever have to brake while you are in a corner, that way you are always braking when traveling in a straight line. This will not only allow you to take the corner smoother, but so that you have more control coming in and out of the corner.

-Also taking a beginners "course" won't teach you much at all. Unless you don't know where the throttle, brakes, and clutch are and want to ride a dirt bike around a parking lot. I know a few riders who went and took a beginners "course" and didn't learn anything they didn't know already.

-The best courses to take are ones where you bring your own bike and they take you out on the track and teach you how to corner properly as well as brake. Testing the bikes limits is the only way you will know how to control it in any situation.

That's just my opinion. Ride safe everyone.

I sort of agree, but I think the applications here are getting confused, you won't find a racer who doesn't brake into corners at all, suspensions are happy when they're being used, but at the same time, why the hell would you be riding in a manner that would require trail breaking into a corner on the street? Riding on the street is like riding on cold tires 100% of the time, weave back and forth all you want, they won't stick enough for this kind of behavior on the street.. Even though I'm sure we've all heard of the hero who would fucking embarrass valentino rossi, but won't go near a race track.

Take the schools and be vigilant in the pursuit of proper advice.