auto vs mt revisited

[sexualbanana]

u don't want it manual. otherwise, u'd be getting slower times on the 1/4.

[OMOYYC]

Unfortunately, regardless how smooth or fast or easy the auto is, people get Manual for the sake of shifting WITH a clutch. That's the whole fun of it! :thumbsup:

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by Cwave
Unfortunately, regardless how smooth or fast or easy the auto is, people get Manual for the sake of shifting WITH a clutch. That's the whole fun of it! :thumbsup:

and the bitchiness when ur in rush hour

[RX-7_TWINTURBO]

BOO FRICKITY HOO !!! :rofl:

rush hour traffic dosent bother me and i drive a standard

[sexualbanana]

i get stuck in serious traffic problems for like 3 hours. it's gay

[James]

Originally posted by sexualbanana
i get stuck in serious traffic problems for like 3 hours. it's gay

Then buy an Automatic, problem solved.

[T5_X]

driving speedshift or autostick or geatronic or shiftronic or tiptronic or sportshift or whatever is worse in heavy traffic for sure. I was driving the volvo in heavy vancouver traffic yesterday and I turned the geartronic off. It's so unresponsive in upshifts and you can't go from 5th to 1st and skip every gear, you have to go through them first. Not skipping gears for downshifting sucks when driving in heavy traffic, plus you don't have the option of just throwing it into neutral whenever you want. Also, the ability to not perfectly control engine braking with a clutch in combination with the brakes makes downshifting a pain in the ass in traffic, so it doesn't smoothly engine brake like you could with a clutch.

Personally, I find shifting it manually a waste of time. The tranny deos a much better job than I ever will on its own for upshifting. Lockup torque converters and adaptive automatic transmission with memory make the fully automatic mode really responsive and quite fun to drive, I'm sure the mercedes tranny is as good or better than the volvo. The only thing i like manual mode for is engine braking into turns, without using the brakes, so it is fun on twisty mountain roads.

Anyway, I don't think I'll ever buy an automatic car, cause with a full manual I feel more in touch with the road, more confident, and I'm a better driver with it.

[kenny]

Originally posted by Ranger_X31
driving speedshift or autostick or geatronic or shiftronic or tiptronic or sportshift or whatever is worse in heavy traffic for sure....and you can't go from 5th to 1st and skip every gear, you have to go through them first.



Speedshift works great for me in heavy traffic, not sure what you are talking about. However, in heavy traffic I just leave it in D and let it shift for me. As I slow down, it downshifts for me, and automatically shifts at redline for me (all without a clutch).

I can shift from 5th to 1st directly if I wanted to as well on my speedshift if I am going slow enough. If I indicate I want to shift from 5th to 1st and I am going too fast, it'll shift into 2nd for a bit, engine brake, and then shift into 1st.

Of course, some people prefer to row their own gears along with the clutch pedal, but to each their own. The feeling of more control over a car with a manual transmission is merely perception IMO, and I firmly believe an automatic car with speedshift offers more real driver control as it allows the driver to focus on driving and not shifting. Again, just my opinion! :D

[buh_buh]

Originally posted by kenny
Again, just my opinion! :D
Well your opinion sucks.:D

[OMOYYC]

Kenny, do you have the paddle controls?


Originally posted by kenny


Speedshift works great for me in heavy traffic, not sure what you are talking about. However, in heavy traffic I just leave it in D and let it shift for me. As I slow down, it downshifts for me, and automatically shifts at redline for me (all without a clutch).

I can shift from 5th to 1st directly if I wanted to as well on my speedshift if I am going slow enough. If I indicate I want to shift from 5th to 1st and I am going too fast, it'll shift into 2nd for a bit, engine brake, and then shift into 1st.

Of course, some people prefer to row their own gears along with the clutch pedal, but to each their own. The feeling of more control over a car with a manual transmission is merely perception IMO, and I firmly believe an automatic car with speedshift offers more real driver control as it allows the driver to focus on driving and not shifting. Again, just my opinion! :D

[4wheeldrift]

Originally posted by buh_buh

Well your opinion sucks.:D

Kenny's just trying to justify spending $80k on a car with an automatic :D

[max_boost]

Originally posted by 4wheeldrift


Kenny's just trying to justify spending $80k on a car with an automatic :D

Not so much his car is automatic but the fact that he can afford a car at that price and at his age is amazing!

[rage2]

Originally posted by Cwave
Kenny, do you have the paddle controls?

The controls are on the shifter. Left for downshift, right for upshift.

As for everyone bashing autos, the Speedshift tranny is probably the most advanced auto tranny out there. Even Porsche uses the same tranny in their 911 twin turbo automatics (yes, Porsche uses Mercedes auto trannys). Torque converter locks up in every gear, shifts are blazing fast, and on hard driving such as on the track, it's always in the right gear. Auto downshifts for cornering, holds gears under corners, etc.


Originally posted by Ranger_X31
with a full manual I feel more in touch with the road, more confident, and I'm a better driver with it.

You have much to learn my friend =).

[buh_buh]

Originally posted by max_boost


Not so much his car is automatic but the fact that he can afford a car at that price and at his age is amazing!
ok, your nose is pretty brown now.:rolleyes:

[kenny]

Originally posted by 300rwhp
you can get them in manual just not in north america im oover in germany and almost of the mercedes i have seen are manual even the big boats (s 500 etc..)

None of the AMGs come in manual, anywhere in the world. As for the other SLKs (200, 230, 320) they also come in a 6 speed manual and is available in all markets.

[kenny]

Originally posted by 4wheeldrift


Kenny's just trying to justify spending $80k on a car with an automatic :D

Haha when I get my 360, it'll be automatic too! :rofl:

[turkeysilk]

Mercedes does not offer manual transmissions in any of their sports cars because they build cars for people over 50. And people over 50 are to tired to want to change gears. :zzz:

[rage2]

Originally posted by turkeysilk
Mercedes does not offer manual transmissions in any of their sports cars because they build cars for people over 50. And people over 50 are to tired to want to change gears. :zzz:

You're pretty ignorant. So you're saying the entire F1 field are over 50 or too lazy? How about the WRC cars, they offer clutchless shifting too. Are those guys over the hill as well?

There's a reason why clutchless/auto trannies are so popular in motorsports. Take out one factor that can cause driver error (shifting) and you become a better, more consistent driver because you can concentrate more in other areas (braking, cornering, accelerating).

[boi-alien]

Originally posted by rage2


You're pretty ignorant. So you're saying the entire F1 field are over 50 or too lazy? How about the WRC cars, they offer clutchless shifting too. Are those guys over the hill as well?

There's a reason why clutchless/auto trannies are so popular in motorsports. Take out one factor that can cause driver error (shifting) and you become a better, more consistent driver because you can concentrate more in other areas (braking, cornering, accelerating).

i totally agree with rage here, it seems like there's this perception that because your car is an automatic that you're 'not as good' a driver as someone driving manual. albeit that it does take a certain amount of skill to drive standard, and it is a helluva lot more fun to drive than an automatic but u take that out and replace it with speedshift or triptronic and the driver can focus a lot more on actually driving. which will lower overall lap times cause the driver can concentrate on taking better lines through corners. and i mean they've had triptronic gearboxes in F1 cars for ages now, so obviously that's the right way to go to improve laptimes, if not they'd still be using manual gearboxes.

[[GaGe]]

Originally posted by turkeysilk
Mercedes does not offer manual transmissions in any of their sports cars

You mean MOST mercedes. The SLK320, SLK230, C230, and C240 can come with manual transmission. So if you're looking for a mercedes with manual transmission, those are your options. :thumbsup:

[turkeysilk]

Originally posted by [GaGe]


You mean MOST mercedes. The SLK320, SLK230, C230, and C240 can come with manual transmission. So if you're looking for a mercedes with manual transmission, those are your options. :thumbsup:

Your image of a sports car and my image of a sports car differ greatly, I don't consider the C class a sports car, and th SLK 320 and SLK 230 are more roadster than sports cars.

[turkeysilk]

Originally posted by rage2


You're pretty ignorant. So you're saying the entire F1 field are over 50 or too lazy? How about the WRC cars, they offer clutchless shifting too. Are those guys over the hill as well?

There's a reason why clutchless/auto trannies are so popular in motorsports. Take out one factor that can cause driver error (shifting) and you become a better, more consistent driver because you can concentrate more in other areas (braking, cornering, accelerating).

I just feel that the youth population are more interested in shifting them selves, rather than letting the car do it for them.

I also believe that good drivers should be skilled enough to shift as well as brake, corner, and vary speed.

Yes, all of F1 do use clutchless shifting, but the gearing system in those cars, and those that are placed in the Mercedes street cars are completely different. The Formula 1 circuit is one of the few that uses clutchless shifting. In the ALMS, LeMans, Cart, GT, Touring all use clutches.

You can call ol' Turkey Silk old fashioned if you'd please, but i still prefer a clutch.

[[GaGe]]

Originally posted by turkeysilk
I also believe that good drivers should be skilled enough to shift as well as brake, corner, and vary speed.

That makes sense, but the good drivers would probably be even better with braking, cornering, and accelerating if they drove automatics.

[rage2]

Originally posted by turkeysilk
I just feel that the youth population are more interested in shifting them selves, rather than letting the car do it for them.

You can call ol' Turkey Silk old fashioned if you'd please, but i still prefer a clutch.

Well, why don't you take out all the synchros in your gearbox so you can perfect the art of double declutched heel toe downshifts? I mean, all manual trannies started out that way. I can do it really well, but there's no need to because technology has evolved to the point where it's not required anymore (heel toe downshifts, a different issue).

By the way, you seem to prefer manual trannies so much, how's your heel toe downshifting skills?

[turkeysilk]

Originally posted by rage2


Well, why don't you take out all the synchros in your gearbox so you can perfect the art of double declutched heel toe downshifts? I mean, all manual trannies started out that way. I can do it really well, but there's no need to because technology has evolved to the point where it's not required anymore (heel toe downshifts, a different issue).

By the way, you seem to prefer manual trannies so much, how's your heel toe downshifting skills?

I must say Rage2, this feels not much like a discussion, but a personal attack on me simply because I have an opinion.

[rage2]

Originally posted by turkeysilk
I must say Rage2, this feels not much like a discussion, but a personal attack on me simply because I have an opinion.

Huh? I'm trying to prove a point, which is clutchless trannies will make any driver a better driver. It's technology evolving to allow humans to drive faster safer. It's common sense.

BTW - I only attack people in Ask Leo.

[rage2]

Originally posted by turkeysilk
Yes, all of F1 do use clutchless shifting, but the gearing system in those cars, and those that are placed in the Mercedes street cars are completely different. The Formula 1 circuit is one of the few that uses clutchless shifting. In the ALMS, LeMans, Cart, GT, Touring all use clutches.

Sure the technology is different, but the end result is the same, and that is allow a driver to concentrate on other areas of fast driving.

By the way, CART/Champcars is clutchless, ALMS/Lemans is clutchless (the higher classes), Touring car's have been clutchless forever (DTM was way more advanced than F1).

[turkeysilk]

Originally posted by rage2


Huh? I'm trying to prove a point, which is clutchless trannies will make any driver a better driver. It's technology evolving to allow humans to drive faster safer. It's common sense.

BTW - I only attack people in Ask Leo.

I question your logic on why it will make you a better driver. You may be right, be please elaborate further. I believe that it doesn't make you a better, it just takes away an aspect of the whole driving experience.

[2000impreza]

Originally posted by turkeysilk


I question your logic on why it will make you a better driver. You may be right, be please elaborate further. I believe that it doesn't make you a better, it just takes away an aspect of the whole driving experience.

Please explain to me what this "whole driving experence is".....

[three.eighteen.]

hmm...does a girl driving stick turn anyone else on?

[[GaGe]]

Originally posted by turkeysilk


I question your logic on why it will make you a better driver. You may be right, be please elaborate further. I believe that it doesn't make you a better, it just takes away an aspect of the whole driving experience.

Like we said earlier.. You can focus more on braking, accelerating, and cornering. And it takes more time to shift which also slows you down.

[T5_X]

No one can tell me I'm a better driver when I drive automatic. I KNOW I'm a better driver with manual. When I drive manual I get anal and concentrate really hard, planning all my moves ahead, also I'm very in touch with exactly what my car is doing, and I can get to know a car better with a manual. When I drive automatic I get bored and my mind starts to wander, I don't feel "connected" to the road or the car. It just works for me, autos might work for someone else... It's sort of like I use my tranny as a crutch to keep me informed on my status, without it, I'm lost, and worse, bored. Maybe it means I'm not as good a driver as you guys (which is definitly true, I have basically no track experience) But as it stands right now, I suck with automtic and I have no fun with it.

[rage2]

Originally posted by turkeysilk
I question your logic on why it will make you a better driver. You may be right, be please elaborate further. I believe that it doesn't make you a better, it just takes away an aspect of the whole driving experience.

GaGe explained it pretty well a few posts down. It does take away an aspect of "the driving experience", but it adds to the other aspects (braking, cornering, accelerating).

[turkeysilk]

Originally posted by [GaGe]


Like we said earlier.. You can focus more on braking, accelerating, and cornering. And it takes more time to shift which also slows you down.

Interesting idea sir, but wouldnt the presence of a manual transmission create more a more difficult circumstance, which would require a better driver? I dont want to be rude, but sir, are you not 12? It would seem you would have little experience with these situations, and youre brothers opinions have probably skewed yours.

This may seem like an extreme analogy, but please allow me some leeway. Say, for example, an auto manufacturer created a system in which the driver no longer needed to steer, and the car automatically followed the racing line. All the driver needed to do was accelerate and shift. It seems absurd now, but it could happen in the future, and you could argue, that not needing to steer could let the driver concentrate more on other aspects. Would this make for a better driver? I hardly think so, but to each his own I suppose. To me, making the shifts myself is as integral as steering.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Ranger_X31
No one can tell me I'm a better driver when I drive automatic. I KNOW I'm a better driver with manual. When I drive manual I get anal and concentrate really hard, planning all my moves ahead, also I'm very in touch with exactly what my car is doing, and I can get to know a car better with a manual. When I drive automatic I get bored and my mind starts to wander, I don't feel "connected" to the road or the car. It just works for me, autos might work for someone else... It's sort of like I use my tranny as a crutch to keep me informed on my status, without it, I'm lost, and worse, bored. Maybe it means I'm not as good a driver as you guys (which is definitly true, I have basically no track experience) But as it stands right now, I suck with automtic and I have no fun with it.

The problem is we have different definition of "fun" and "better driver". My definition of "better driver" is the ability to pull super fast laps at the track over and over again consistently... I agree with you though, in day to day driving (ie speed limit) auto is more boring than manual. But hey, I don't drive speed limit too often... :D

Manual definately sucks in rush hour in *my* car (the 944 turbo). Stiff ass clutch, on/off action, it's a bitch to drive. I've worked downtown for years, and I hate taking the 944 to work. I know newer cars have much nicer clutch action.

[turkeysilk]

If youre idea of a better driver is faster track times and improved consistency, cant that also be achieved with a manual transmission? You are correct though, this discussion has veered severly off topic, and i think may be getting a bit redundant. I think we can both agree that the choice of a manual or auto transmission is based purely on the drivers taste and desired level of involvement in any given operation, be it controlling the car or hitting the apex. All things come with compromise.

[OMOYYC]

It's most definately a matter of opinion, and what your priorities are.

For example, I like to become very good on the clutch and the shifter. My goal is to not only be FAST, which anyone can be, but also be smooth at the same time. Sometimes, I practice when I have passengers in my car and make my shifts smooth. Consider how driving can become boring easily, I like to have challenges.

Now to me, that's *MY* driving experience that I want. I have been driving an Auto tranny for the last 5 years, and before that I drove a 5 speed, and now I drive a 5 speed. I must say, since I got my new 5 speed, everyday, I look forward to driving, even within speed limit. I LOVE DRIVING NOW! The experience is very difficult to explain, but I gaurantee you that I would not feel even close to this way if I had an Auto tranny.

Of course, faster lap times are *NICE* but for me, I go to the track maybe twice a year, and 3 times at most. My priority is on my day to day driving. I avoid rush hours, so that part is out of my concerns. Even if I do drive rush hours, I don't have any problems with my clutch. It's just more practice on my starts! :burnout:

[[GaGe]]

Originally posted by turkeysilk

I dont want to be rude, but sir, are you not 12? It would seem you would have little experience with these situations


The fact that i'm 12 doesn't mean i have little experience with these situations. =)

[jonny]

are you saying you've tried driving an auto and a manual on the track? Just wondering, i'm not a cop or anything. :thumbsup:

[[GaGe]]

No, but I've played racing video games since I was 5. And if you think I'm bad, ask rage. I beat record times on the internet. :thumbsup:

[kenny]

Originally posted by [GaGe]
No, but I've played racing video games since I was 5. And if you think I'm bad, ask rage. I beat record times on the internet. :thumbsup:

GaGE also had a pretty good understanding of oversteer and understeer since he was 9. The kid has grown up with two brothers that were totally into cars, and racing. Once he gets his license and a car, he'll be someone to watch out for on the track! :burnout:

[SilverStreak]

Originally posted by Cwave
It's most definately a matter of opinion, and what your priorities are.

For example, I like to become very good on the clutch and the shifter. My goal is to not only be FAST, which anyone can be, but also be smooth at the same time. Sometimes, I practice when I have passengers in my car and make my shifts smooth. Consider how driving can become boring easily, I like to have challenges.

Now to me, that's *MY* driving experience that I want. I have been driving an Auto tranny for the last 5 years, and before that I drove a 5 speed, and now I drive a 5 speed. I must say, since I got my new 5 speed, everyday, I look forward to driving, even within speed limit. I LOVE DRIVING NOW! The experience is very difficult to explain, but I gaurantee you that I would not feel even close to this way if I had an Auto tranny.

Of course, faster lap times are *NICE* but for me, I go to the track maybe twice a year, and 3 times at most. My priority is on my day to day driving. I avoid rush hours, so that part is out of my concerns. Even if I do drive rush hours, I don't have any problems with my clutch. It's just more practice on my starts! :burnout:

:thumbsup: well said

[Big_Six_Boy]

How can you guys be talking like, "oh I really like the sportiness", then ask, "Does it come in Automatic??".... like WTF?!?!?

That's a freakin' oxymoron... if you are into the pure sporty aspect of it, the AUTOMATIC is not a consideration! Automatics are for the old folks who have $$$$ and not into the sports driving. (sorry Rage2 and Kenny... I'm really hoping you guys get the new 6-speed AMGs)

I can just hear people now comparing the sequential shifts of F1 and CART cars to Automatic, but they are very confused.
Semi-auto/Tiptronic/SMG is not the same as the Sequential of the upper echelon cars. They shift differently, and don't FORCE a shift depending on the RPM you are sitting at.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Big_Six_Boy
That's a freakin' oxymoron... if you are into the pure sporty aspect of it, the AUTOMATIC is not a consideration! Automatics are for the old folks who have $$$$ and not into the sports driving. (sorry Rage2 and Kenny... I'm really hoping you guys get the new 6-speed AMGs)

It's all personal preference. I mean, I thought the same thing before I bought my SLK. Porsche 944, 5 speed, that's the track car. SLK, cruiser. The primary reason for me getting an auto was because of my wife, it's her daily driver. After purchasing the car and learning the habits of the tranny, then taking it to AutoX and lapping days, my perception of an auto tranny has changed significantly. Maybe I'm a shitty driver, but I feel much more confident late braking into every corner I can... =)


Originally posted by Big_Six_Boy
I can just hear people now comparing the sequential shifts of F1 and CART cars to Automatic, but they are very confused.
Semi-auto/Tiptronic/SMG is not the same as the Sequential of the upper echelon cars. They shift differently, and don't FORCE a shift depending on the RPM you are sitting at.

I've pointed out that technically, they are very different. F1 tranny being a full sequential tranny, SMG being a manual with clutch controlled electronically, and Speedshift being a fast shifting 5 speed auto with full torque converter lockup at all times. Although the technology is different (speedshift probably has the highest drivetrain powerloss), the driver involvement is the same. To the driver, it does the same job, getting the car in the right gear at the right time quickly.

[Fuji]

Originally posted by Big_Six_Boy
How can you guys be talking like, "oh I really like the sportiness", then ask, "Does it come in Automatic??".... like WTF?!?!?

That's a freakin' oxymoron... if you are into the pure sporty aspect of it, the AUTOMATIC is not a consideration! Automatics are for the old folks who have $$$$ and not into the sports driving. (sorry Rage2 and Kenny... I'm really hoping you guys get the new 6-speed AMGs)

I can just hear people now comparing the sequential shifts of F1 and CART cars to Automatic, but they are very confused.
Semi-auto/Tiptronic/SMG is not the same as the Sequential of the upper echelon cars. They shift differently, and don't FORCE a shift depending on the RPM you are sitting at.

SMG is the closest anyone will likely see that resembles any kind of F! car. SMG is a manual adapted gearbox, while tiptronic/semi-auto is automatic adapted gearbox. even thought they perform the same function SMG is pretty close to F! tranny's granted they are WAY cheaper than the actual versions used in F1/cart. Ferrari uses SMG in their cars as well.

[92 Teg-B18A]

Originally posted by Fuji
Ferrari uses SMG in their cars as well.

SMG is a Trademark of BMW;) Ferrari does have ther own propietary gearbox as well, but the SMG is by far the best one out there, 80millisecond shifts! That's hella faster than I can shift!

[RiceCake]

yeah but rumor has it that the smg does have quite a bit of clutch wear... damn gotta love technology tho! :drool: :thumbsup: :love:

[E36M3]

There is a significant difference between an F1 transmission and a road car's automatic transmission.

For one, the cars do have clutches, they just happen to be computer controlled. In a true automatic, this is done by a torque converter.

Another thing, F1 drivers change gears *manually*. There is no automatic mode on an F1 car.

I hate to pick nits, because in essence you are correct.. I just think that it is a bit of a jump to compare a racecar like an F1 car to a street car.

Just try to find a street car wtih no synchros :)


Originally posted by rage2


You're pretty ignorant. So you're saying the entire F1 field are over 50 or too lazy? How about the WRC cars, they offer clutchless shifting too. Are those guys over the hill as well?

There's a reason why clutchless/auto trannies are so popular in motorsports. Take out one factor that can cause driver error (shifting) and you become a better, more consistent driver because you can concentrate more in other areas (braking, cornering, accelerating).

[E36M3]

Tiptronic is an *automatic* transmission used to manually select an incrementally higher or lower gear.

An F1 car (and some street cars with sequential gearboxes) use manual transmissions with computer actuated clutches.

*Massive* difference, although the tiptronics are getting closer, they are still no match for an expert human shifter.

The sequential transmissions (at least the good ones) on the other hand, are way faster and way more accurate than even the best human drivers. Automatically blipping the throttle for downshifts is awesome too.

K,0iginally posted by crxboi [/i]


i totally agree with rage here, it seems like there's this perception that because your car is an automatic that you're 'not as good' a driver as someone driving manual. albeit that it does take a certain amount of skill to drive standard, and it is a helluva lot more fun to drive than an automatic but u take that out and replace it with speedshift or triptronic and the driver can focus a lot more on actually driving. which will lower overall lap times cause the driver can concentrate on taking better lines through corners. and i mean they've had triptronic gearboxes in F1 cars for ages now, so obviously that's the right way to go to improve laptimes, if not they'd still be using manual gearboxes. [/QUOTE]

[rage2]

Originally posted by E36M3
Another thing, F1 drivers change gears *manually*. There is no automatic mode on an F1 car.

You watch Montoya's in car videos lately? Full auto upshifts, buttons to downshift into specific gear for certain corners. Those bastards are getting lazy! =)

[E36M3]

Nice. I mean, ultimately, it makes sense. The only reason that manual transmissions exist in racecars at all is because computers are not yet capable of beating the best race car drivers.

I can definately see the benefit of a fully automatic upshift.. especially on F1 cars. it is still a manual transmission that is just computer controlled, rather than an automatic.

Even though I am closing on a house Sept.1, I am still tempted to go out and get an E46 M3 just for the sheer geekiness of an SMG transmission.


Originally posted by rage2


You watch Montoya's in car videos lately? Full auto upshifts, buttons to downshift into specific gear for certain corners. Those bastards are getting lazy! =)

[E36M3]

It's funny.. I have a very similiar situation with my cars. I only drive about once a week or so (usually to the airport) and so the M3 is a totally practical car for me. If I have to bring some people along, I have room for four (somewhat comfortably). The clutch is stiff, the ride is somewhat harsh, but it is an incredibly fun car.

My girlfriend initially loved the M3, but has grown tired of it as time progressed. She commutes across the Bay Bridge every morning into Oakland, and a manual transmission with a stiff clutch isn't optimal.

The Saab is a great car for commuting, but I hate driving it fast. I think you made a great choice with the SLK. I think that our next cruiser might be an M Roadster SMG (if they release it) or a Mercedes E Class. To tell you the truth, the X5 is looking more and more fun every day.

If I ever replace the M3, I think I might go with a Ferrari F360 or a Porsche Turbo, so so that the car becomes a completely impractical getaway from everyday life. Also on the shortlist would be either of the new Maseratis, or a BMW Z8.




Originally posted by rage2


It's all personal preference. I mean, I thought the same thing before I bought my SLK. Porsche 944, 5 speed, that's the track car. SLK, cruiser. The primary reason for me getting an auto was because of my wife, it's her daily driver. After purchasing the car and learning the habits of the tranny, then taking it to AutoX and lapping days, my perception of an auto tranny has changed significantly. Maybe I'm a shitty driver, but I feel much more confident late braking into every corner I can... =)



I've pointed out that technically, they are very different. F1 tranny being a full sequential tranny, SMG being a manual with clutch controlled electronically, and Speedshift being a fast shifting 5 speed auto with full torque converter lockup at all times. Although the technology is different (speedshift probably has the highest drivetrain powerloss), the driver involvement is the same. To the driver, it does the same job, getting the car in the right gear at the right time quickly.

[E36M3]

Funny stuff. I didn't mean to get anal.. I just hate people comparing a Tiptronic to a sequential gearbox, assuming they are the same thing. It is pretty obvious that you know the difference :)

[rage2]

hehe I enjoy a good debate once in a while... but lots of people don't really see where I'm coming from. For the record, I know how to drive MT quite well =).

[E36M3]

Driving a big HP 944 turbo would probably force you to learn.. have you driven a Ferrari F355/F360 F1 (or any other Ferrari with a similiar transmission) or a BMW SMG II equipped car? Quite fun.. I doubt I woul dopt for a traditional gearshift/clutch setup if given the choice.


Originally posted by rage2
hehe I enjoy a good debate once in a while... but lots of people don't really see where I'm coming from. For the record, I know how to drive MT quite well =).

[rage2]

Originally posted by E36M3
Driving a big HP 944 turbo would probably force you to learn.. have you driven a Ferrari F355/F360 F1 (or any other Ferrari with a similiar transmission) or a BMW SMG II equipped car? Quite fun.. I doubt I woul dopt for a traditional gearshift/clutch setup if given the choice.

I've only driven the 6 speed 355/360's. I have been a passenger in a F360 F1, it seems really cool. The downshifts sound wicked. I heard the SMG in the M3 is a much more refined system, but have yet to try one out yet.

What I really want to do is practice left foot braking on the SLK at the track, but the pedal arrangement doesn't feel natural for left foot braking. Maybe I just need more practice.

[4wheeldrift]

Originally posted by rage2


You watch Montoya's in car videos lately? Full auto upshifts, buttons to downshift into specific gear for certain corners. Those bastards are getting lazy! =)

No, thats just montoya :) Too many chillidogs

[Ferio_vti]

Originally posted by turkeysilk
Mercedes does not offer manual transmissions in any of their sports cars because they build cars for people over 50. And people over 50 are to tired to want to change gears. :zzz:

You're also missing out the fact that your only considering North American, that simply prefers auto. While the rest of the world will more likely drive 5 speed. I knew a friend who's Grandma in England, 80+, still drive a 5 speed. Heck, her car didn't even have power steering.

[sexualbanana]

WTF!?!?! i didn't start this thread

[BarryBeach]

Originally posted by sexualbanana
WTF!?!?! i didn't start this thread

HAHA how long did it take you to notice ... ?? lol

[rage2]

Originally posted by sexualbanana
WTF!?!?! i didn't start this thread

I just split it from a few other threads.

[Alpine Autowerks]

Originally posted by rage2


Manual definately sucks in rush hour in *my* car (the 944 turbo). Stiff ass clutch, on/off action, it's a bitch to drive. I've worked downtown for years, and I hate taking the 944 to work. I know newer cars have much nicer clutch action.



Wait till you feel your new 3800# billet pressure plate, you are going to have to work out @ Gold's... well you left leg routine anyway...


You can't beat boost and auto, driver just has to drive. No loss of power thru the shift either.

[Silencer]

Don't you guys think that theres a reason that stick shift cars are faster? There's a lot less power loss through a manuel tranny then an auto, even a Tiptronic and Sequential.

[Alpine Autowerks]

Originally posted by Silencer
Don't you guys think that theres a reason that stick shift cars are faster? There's a lot less power loss through a manuel tranny then an auto, even a Tiptronic and Sequential.


There is power loss through a trans with a torque converter.... until it locks up. Sequentials do not have a torque converter

[Silencer]

In reference to the debate of manuel vs. Automatic.

I feel very much like Ranger_X31 in that I find that my mind wanders when driving a slushbox. Being forced to shift ensures that one's attention is focused on driving.

Advantages of Manuel Transmisson:

1. Lower initial cost (Auto typically cost an extra one or two thousand dollars more upon purchase, even with used cars. This might not matter much to high rollers like Rage and Kenny :D, but that's a fair bit o' cash. Enough for H/I/E or suspension on most cars.)

2. Lower running cost (fuel economy is often significantly better with a stick shift. Allways has been, and manu-matics are only starting to catch up.)

3. Less brake wear. (If downshifted properly, one can avoid excessive use of the brake durring economic driving.)

4. Better throttle response (Power is ~rigth here, right now~, it doesn't feel like the accelerator is attached by an elastic band to the engine. Granted, this feeling can very between cheap and higher end cars, but is almost allways true to some extent. This is especially true on low torque engines like civics, etc. At least until the converter locks up.)

5. No waiting for car to downshift. (similar to #4, this varies between cars depending on sport or luxury/economy slant of the car, but you get the idea.

6. Improved Car Control (the car will not downshift/upshift [upseting balance] as you pull through a high-G corner. Maybe not so important unless racing or driving hard, but take it from me, having a POS FWD auto Sunbird oversteer because of a sudden (unexpected) downshift on a wet road is not fun. Well, actually, I guess it was ;) but I'm still not sure how it happened.)

7. Pride ( saves you the shame of having people look at your car and say "Sweet ride....awww, but it's automatic! Besides, it's one of the marks of a true automobile enthusiast that they be able to heel-and-toe, double-clutch, and complete a full chat upshift in under a third of a second.)

8. It's more fun (Personal opinion, obviously, but as Ranger said previously, I like to challenge myself.)

Add any others either for or against.

[Silencer]

BTW, I wish I had a 1970-1973 911 like Alpine Autowerks
:drool:
What color is it?

[Audi Kid]

well putt markus.............and......u and your sunbird haha crazy fucker..

[rage2]

Originally posted by Silencer
1. Lower initial cost (Auto typically cost an extra one or two thousand dollars more upon purchase, even with used cars. This might not matter much to high rollers like Rage and Kenny :D, but that's a fair bit o' cash. Enough for H/I/E or suspension on most cars.)

OK 1 point for manual.


Originally posted by Silencer
2. Lower running cost (fuel economy is often significantly better with a stick shift. Allways has been, and manu-matics are only starting to catch up.)

SLK auto tranny is more fuel efficient than SLK manual tranny. Don't even get me started on my 944's awesome fuel economy...

1 point for auto.


Originally posted by Silencer
3. Less brake wear. (If downshifted properly, one can avoid excessive use of the brake durring economic driving.)

Brakes should be used in normal driving. Why would you wear out your engine by using engine braking? You'd only want to use engine braking/keeping revs up at the track, where fuel economy doesn't count. Brakes are cheap compared to an engine rebuild.

1 point for auto.


Originally posted by Silencer
4. Better throttle response (Power is ~rigth here, right now~, it doesn't feel like the accelerator is attached by an elastic band to the engine. Granted, this feeling can very between cheap and higher end cars, but is almost allways true to some extent. This is especially true on low torque engines like civics, etc. At least until the converter locks up.)

Most performance cars have lockup torque converters to help fuel economy, so autos feel like manuals when holding gears.

1 point for auto.


Originally posted by Silencer
5. No waiting for car to downshift. (similar to #4, this varies between cars depending on sport or luxury/economy slant of the car, but you get the idea.

mmm Kenny's car. We're talking performance cars here, cars we drive hard. It's not like I'm going to be driving a Camry auto hard. 1 point for auto.


Originally posted by Silencer
6. Improved Car Control (the car will not downshift/upshift [upseting balance] as you pull through a high-G corner. Maybe not so important unless racing or driving hard, but take it from me, having a POS FWD auto Sunbird oversteer because of a sudden (unexpected) downshift on a wet road is not fun. Well, actually, I guess it was ;) but I'm still not sure how it happened.)

Again, why are we driving a sunbird auto hard? Always in the right gear in my car and kenny's car... even at the track we can leave it in D if we like. 1 point for auto.


Originally posted by Silencer
7. Pride ( saves you the shame of having people look at your car and say "Sweet ride....awww, but it's automatic! Besides, it's one of the marks of a true automobile enthusiast that they be able to heel-and-toe, double-clutch, and complete a full chat upshift in under a third of a second.)

How about the pride of an auto car kicking serious ass at the track? aww... but it's an automatic! Well the automatic kicked your ass =). I can heel toe double declutch downshift when I drive a Manual car. Just because I drive an auto doesn't mean I can't do it. 1 point for auto.


Originally posted by Silencer
8. It's more fun (Personal opinion, obviously, but as Ranger said previously, I like to challenge myself.)

Try a blistering lap at the track, there's a challenge for you. Much more enjoyable than nailing the perfect heel toe downshift. I can do that quite easily, not even a challenge anymore. 1 point for auto.

OK what's the score? =)

(Just my humble opinion of course) :D

[jonny]

SLK auto tranny is more fuel efficient than SLK manual tranny. Don't even get me started on my 944's awesome fuel economy...

1 point for auto.

That doesnt really add up. You would actually have to compare the 944's fuel economy to an automatic 944. Obviously you can't, but to say youre 944 is bad on gas proves that all autos are better on gas doesnt make sense. As i understand it, on the whole, manuals are far better on gas, if one drives conservatively. Yes, track cars you dont drive conservatively, but i would be willing to bet that on the track a manual is if anything, equal, or only slightly worse then an automatic. So in the long run..
1 point for manual.



Brakes should be used in normal driving. Why would you wear out your engine by using engine braking? You'd only want to use engine braking/keeping revs up at the track, where fuel economy doesn't count. Brakes are cheap compared to an engine rebuild.

1 point for auto.

Ya, true. People think they save money on brakes by buying a manual, when all they're actually doing is prematurely wearing their engine. However, if driven properly, USING the breaks to slow down, you dont get any more or less wear then a manual. Therefore
0 points auto, 0 points manual



Most performance cars have lockup torque converters to help fuel economy, so autos feel like manuals when holding gears.

1 point for auto.

Again, youre only saying that the auto is equalling the manual, so i dont understand why youre giving a point out. Not to mention, this only applies to a small number of autos. To give a point, wouldnt the auto have to actually 'best' the manual. I'm giving 0 points again.
0 points auto, 0 points manual



mmm Kenny's car. We're talking performance cars here, cars we drive hard. It's not like I'm going to be driving a Camry auto hard. 1 point for auto.

Mmmm, the 360 F1 takes 229 millisecs to change gears, i'm not actually sure that your car can do it as fast as a manual. Since i've never driven an SLK32 AMG, i'll assume that it can. I'll even assume the SLK32 AMG can switch gears faster then a person can in a manual. And seeing how you can actually choose the gear, i'll give auto's a point.

1 point auto



Again, why are we driving a sunbird auto hard? Always in the right gear in my car and kenny's car... even at the track we can leave it in D if we like. 1 point for auto.
Same idea here, the auto doesnt actually give any sort of advantage over a manual.
0 points auto, 0 points manual



How about the pride of an auto car kicking serious ass at the track? aww... but it's an automatic! Well the automatic kicked your ass =). I can heel toe double declutch downshift when I drive a Manual car. Just because I drive an auto doesn't mean I can't do it. 1 point for auto.
Well, the pride of an auto kicking ass at the track stems from the auto being more exspensive and the driver doing less work. It would seem to me as well that there would be less pride involved. Just because you can heel toe doesnt mean anything if you didnt actually do it when you beat someone. It seems to me that beating a person while adding in a skill like heel toe would be much more gratifying. Since this is strictly opinion though, no points awarded.



Try a blistering lap at the track, there's a challenge for you. Much more enjoyable than nailing the perfect heel toe downshift. I can do that quite easily, not even a challenge anymore. 1 point for auto.

OK what's the score? =)

(Just my humble opinion of course) :D :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Try a blistering lap while heel toe downshifting. Like i say, good lap times plus added skill = more fun. Frankly if heel toeing is so easy for you why do you say you want a manual to concentrate more on the racing line, break zone etc.? If its so easy then you wouldnt even need to concentrate. Youre not me though, and this is again opinion. 0 points for all.

so added up:

2 manual + (2 opinon points)
1 auto (and the one point was a gimme as well)

all opinion in the end though anyway boys :nut:

[James]

Rage2, In MOST cars Autos isnt better, In almost all of your points saying how Autos are superior, you use $90,000 Mercedes Tranny's asan example:rolleyes: , Of course there gonna be better, it fricken Mercedes! Of course Std and Auto both have thier advantages, but when you exclude all the high end race cars, or luxury Cruisers, can you still Honestly say that Auto's are Better?:bullshit:

Silencer had 8 Exaples of how Standard is better, in atleast 4 of your 7 arguements you mentioned Kenny's car, or high performance Auto's. :p , Not trying to offend you, I know you can drive Standard with the best of them, just feedin more fuel to the fire , thats all.:)

[SilverStreak]

Best Motoring Videos, that is track racing at its best. I am guessing the drift king and his cohorts would take a MT car over auto anyday.

If the cars in question did have a MT. you guys wouldn't need to rationalize your vehicles. :confused:

[turkeysilk]

"How about the pride of an auto car kicking serious ass at the track? aww... but it's an automatic! Well the automatic kicked your ass =). I can heel toe double declutch downshift when I drive a Manual car. Just because I drive an auto doesn't mean I can't do it. 1 point for auto."

You may be a better driver than every single person here, I don't know, but the primary reason you are pulling off fast track times is your car being superior to everyone elses.

Also you say it feels really good to be beating people in your auto transmission, but buy a car thats the same price as yours with a manual, say a Z06, and the laptimes will be way faster than with your auto. Unless I misunderstood what you said, if so, please elaborate.

On a number of your points given to autos, I'm having difficulty understanding your logic. On this one for example you gave a point to autos because your car is faster than the rest of our Hondas and toyotas.

[boi-alien]

Originally posted by turkeysilk

You may be a better driver than every single person here, I don't know, but the primary reason you are pulling off fast track times is your car being superior to everyone elses.

just one thing i'd like to say... rage2 has mad skillz in the car. but here's the thing, it's the driver that makes the car, not the car that makes the driver. i remember reading about a guy who brought out a lambo to an auto-X event, and he lost to tegs and civics and such, wouldn't u say that the lambo is FAR superior to the civics and tegs? i would say so... if the person has the BEST car in the world with no driving skills, it don't mean shit!

[4wheeldrift]

Auto's just make it easier for regular schmoes like us with good to great car control feel like heroes :D. An A grade driver in a manual will turn in a lap time every bit as fast as the auto trannys are capable of, assuming similar car setups. It all comes down to driver in the end, and the truly amazing drivers, all things being equal will turn in perfectly consistent laps no matter whether we're talking an automatic or a manual tranny or somewhere in between.

[Alpine Autowerks]

Originally posted by Silencer
BTW, I wish I had a 1970-1973 911 like Alpine Autowerks
:drool:
What color is it? .



Dark Blue

[Silencer]

Originally posted by Alpine Autowerks

Dark Blue

:drool: I wannit!

[E36M3]

I would much rather drive a Civic or Integra at an AutoX vs. a Diablo. I would argue that they are superior to a Diablo on an AutoX course for the following reasons:

a) weight. In an autocross, a large, heavy vehicle like a lambo is a big liability. the brakes get cooked very quickly and it isn't as nimble

b) handling. low speed handling in an integra/civic is much better than in a diablo

c) reliability. I can't imagine a Diablo lasting an entire day at an AutoX course while being pushed hard

d) comfort. Ever been in a diablo for more than 5 minutes? It gets hot as hell and isn't a pleasant environment

e) reaching the limit. Granted, the limits on a Civic/Integra are much different, but to approach the speeds of a civic or integra on an AutoX course in a Diablo would mean putting a very expensive vehicle at risk, and it is not something most people are willing/able to do, regardless of their bank accounts

In any case, this is off topic. That dude in the Diablo:

a) didn't know how to drive
b) couldn't/wouldn't push a $375,000 US car

I saw the website and saw all the pics.. it was funny as hell, I gotta admit, to see a Diablo get smoked by EVERYTHING including a Geo Metro.


Originally posted by crxboi


just one thing i'd like to say... rage2 has mad skillz in the car. but here's the thing, it's the driver that makes the car, not the car that makes the driver. i remember reading about a guy who brought out a lambo to an auto-X event, and he lost to tegs and civics and such, wouldn't u say that the lambo is FAR superior to the civics and tegs? i would say so... if the person has the BEST car in the world with no driving skills, it don't mean shit!