Cash for clunkers results

[HillBilly]

The top 10 vehicles purchased by those making clunker trades:

1. Toyota Corolla

2. Honda Civic

3. Ford Focus

4. Toyota Camry

5. Toyota Prius

6. Hyundai Elantra

7. Ford Escape (front-wheel-drive)

8. Honda Fit

9. Nissan Versa

10. Honda CR-V (four-wheel-drive


full story
http://ctv2.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090818.wclunkers0818/business/Business/businessBN/ctv-business

[403Gemini]

Good for Ford making the list twice! Nice to see Hyundai up there too, they're doing some great work

[B4tMan]

around 360 thousand cars have been traded in under this program

[KrisYYC]

I wonder how many of those 360,000 cars were still perfectly usable.

[vtec4life]

I just realized how much of a scam this program is....putting 360,000 more people in atleast 20K of debt that probably cant afford a new car. So a very conservative number would be 7.2 BILLION DOLLARS of new debt for the government to make money on. DAMN THAT NUMBER SOUNDS FAMILIAR

I mean its obviously their choice to trade their crap car in but still. This kind of thing is what started the whole mess in the first place is it not?

[kaput]

.

[vtec4life]

Actually your right about that hahaha I forgot that neither Chrysler nor GM are in the top 10. In all reality though the government doesnt give a shit whos making the sales as long as there are sales being made.

[KrisYYC]

Originally posted by vtec4life
I just realized how much of a scam this program is....putting 360,000 more people in atleast 20K of debt that probably cant afford a new car. So a very conservative number would be 7.2 BILLION DOLLARS of new debt for the government to make money on. DAMN THAT NUMBER SOUNDS FAMILIAR

I mean its obviously their choice to trade their crap car in but still. This kind of thing is what started the whole mess in the first place is it not?

Yep, it's a total scham. The Amerians think that they'll get out of this recession by.....going into MORE debt to buy things!!

That's the problem when you have a phony economy which is 70% based on consumer spending.

[Tomaz]

Originally posted by kaput
Still no help for GM or Chrysler :rofl:

HA!

[civiclvr]

Originally posted by KrisYYC
I wonder how many of those 360,000 cars were still perfectly usable.


Every single one. That was one of the rules. The car had to be in driveable condition to meet the pre-req's for the program.

It wasn't the point.
the point was to upgrade the mpg ratings of the vehicle and to help people make the purchase.
the voucher was available in 2 denominations depending on the amount of mpg you went up. They had to be under 18 mpg to qualify (the "clunkers")

if 360,000 cars are now burning less gas for the same distance, all the better for the world.

say they are all getting on average 10-15 mpg better now (that's a pretty tame estimate)
that's between 3.6 mil and 5.4 mil miles more per gallon for the total of the cars purchased.

pretty smart in my books.
plus i don't know how they got it to go through with oil lobbyists.

[KrisYYC]

Originally posted by civiclvr



Every single one. That was one of the rules. The car had to be in driveable condition to meet the pre-req's for the program.

It wasn't the point.
the point was to upgrade the mpg ratings of the vehicle and to help people make the purchase.
the voucher was available in 2 denominations depending on the amount of mpg you went up. They had to be under 18 mpg to qualify (the "clunkers")

if 360,000 cars are now burning less gas for the same distance, all the better for the world.

say they are all getting on average 10-15 mpg better now (that's a pretty tame estimate)
that's between 3.6 mil and 5.4 mil miles more per gallon for the total of the cars purchased.

pretty smart in my books.
plus i don't know how they got it to go through with oil lobbyists.

You're forgetting the environmental cost of scrapping vehicles that are perfectly usable. Plus the environmental cost of manufacturing the new vehicles to replace the old "clunkers".

How they got it through the oil lobbyists? Easy, people are still buying oil dependant cars. It's a scham.

[2EFNFAST]

Originally posted by civiclvr

and to help people make the purchase.

pretty smart in my books.


I would say, from what I've read, the majority of people who've used the program had a car that was paid off. So basically they had to pay gas+insurance on it. They could not afford a new car.

Now you're giving them the 3500-4500, which they used as their entire downpayment, to buy a new car. Now they have to worry about gas+insurance+car payments.

Didn't we learn the first time (of course not) what happens when you over-leverage yourself - they can't afford a new car, so the govn't gives them the downpayment basically for one, now they've got car payments they can't afford. Hmm, this will end well.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by civiclvr
plus i don't know how they got it to go through with oil lobbyists.

It probably has something to do with the fact that oil lobbyists aren't as powerful or don't care as much as the conspiracy documentary film makers would have you believe.

Who killed the electric car? GM. Because it wasn't cost effective.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by 2EFNFAST


I would say, from what I've read, the majority of people who've used the program had a car that was paid off. So basically they had to pay gas+insurance on it. They could not afford a new car.

Now you're giving them the 3500-4500, which they used as their entire downpayment, to buy a new car. Now they have to worry about gas+insurance+car payments.

Didn't we learn the first time (of course not) what happens when you over-leverage yourself - they can't afford a new car, so the govn't gives them the downpayment basically for one, now they've got car payments they can't afford. Hmm, this will end well.

360,000 cars might seem like a lot.

However, in reality that is really only 1 new car per 1000 people in the US.

I suspect that more than 0.1% of Americans can afford a new car. The people who couldn't afford it wouldn't be approved for financing anyways.

[adam c]

the US people could be approved for anything, that's why everything happened the way it did

[vtec4life]

Originally posted by adam c
the US people could be approved for anything, that's why everything happened the way it did

Exactly... Just because someone gets approved for financing doesnt mean they can afford it :nut: ....usually financing something means they CANNOT afford what they are buying so they have to get financing!

[bituerbo]

20k is a bit of an exaggeration for debt. I just ran some calculations, with the top 3, avg. purchase price comes out under $9800. For a brand new car that can reliably get them to and from their job/school, will save them ~$2000 over the next 3 years in gas.

Toyota Corolla:
$15,350
-$4500 CARS allownace
-1000 Toyota Customer Cash
________________________
$9850 for a 2009 Corolla


Honda Civic:
$15,505
-4500 CARS allowance
-750 dealer cash
________________
$ 10,255 for a 2009 Honda Civic Sedan.


Ford Focus:
$16,125 MSRP
-4,500 CARS allowance
-500 Ford customer Cash
-1500 Ford retail bonus customer cash
-500 Ford credit retail bonus.
_________________________
$9,215 for a 2009 Ford Focus SE

[civiclvr]

Originally posted by KrisYYC


You're forgetting the environmental cost of scrapping vehicles that are perfectly usable. Plus the environmental cost of manufacturing the new vehicles to replace the old "clunkers".

How they got it through the oil lobbyists? Easy, people are still buying oil dependant cars. It's a scham.

I never mentioned that it was the best case scenario for the environment, nor am I forgetting the scrapping costs. but what i'd like to know is the emissions created by killing these cars vs. the emissions created by running them another 10-15 years. The cars are already built and will continue to be built. demand dipped for a while but it's not like it won't be back once the economy picks back up. so using the manufacturing environmental cost, is a moot point.

yes they are oil dependant, but less so. 10 - 15 mpg is still a fair amount.

And I wonder the jobs created by scrappers, mechanics, metals dealers, scrap yards and associated fields.



Originally posted by sputnik


It probably has something to do with the fact that oil lobbyists aren't as powerful or don't care as much as the conspiracy documentary film makers would have you believe.

Who killed the electric car? GM. Because it wasn't cost effective.

I never mentioned they were all powerful. But they do have some sway. I'd wager a bet that it's still quite significant.

Individual states might not have been happy either based on the taxes paid to them by fuel sales.


Originally posted by vtec4life


Exactly... Just because someone gets approved for financing doesnt mean they can afford it :nut: ....usually financing something means they CANNOT afford what they are buying so they have to get financing!

Banks are a little more cautious at this point wouldn't you think? I'm not aware of ALL the pre requisites, but there were many. both on the car and the purchaser.



I think there are a few people that have only looked at one side of this incentive. It's two fold, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have some consequences.
The saving on gas
the lower of emissions (long run/term)
the deals in the states on new cars
and the fear of deepening the problem

it's a balancing act, and one that can work if executed carefully.

[2EFNFAST]

Originally posted by sputnik


360,000 cars might seem like a lot.

However, in reality that is really only 1 new car per 1000 people in the US.

I suspect that more than 0.1% of Americans can afford a new car. The people who couldn't afford it wouldn't be approved for financing anyways.

Yes, but you have to look at the demographic - the vast majority taking advantage of the program can't afford a new vehicle. How many clips do you see of somebody excited beyond belief because "without this program I'd never have been able to afford a new car" - many.

[civiclvr]

probably cause they can't save enough money due to their current car gas/oil/repair/maitenance requirements.

[2EFNFAST]

Originally posted by civiclvr
probably cause they can't save enough money due to their current car gas/oil/repair/maitenance requirements.

Uh huh. I'm sure these arn't the same exact people who bitch that Wal-mart should have a WBI (welfare) checkout line :rolleyes:

[civiclvr]

Originally posted by 2EFNFAST


Uh huh. I'm sure these arn't the same exact people who bitch that Wal-mart should have a WBI (welfare) checkout line :rolleyes:


No need for sarcasm. The fact of the matter is that you don't know that for sure. I'm all for a debate, but you can just acknowledge our differing opinion as opposed to being less than civil about it.

Perhaps you don't remember/never knew what it was like to live on the edge of being poor. Anyone that's been a student with a crappy car (myself included), knows the feeling. I know I couldn't afford a newer car at the time. Anytime I started to get ahead, my shitty Hyundai pony would smack me down. Before I learned how to fix it myself, it was costing me a bundle.
Now offer me a ~$9k high quality/relability/gas mileage saver car, that's going to cost me, on average, the same amount that i'm putting into my existing car monthly, and cost me less in gas. I'd jump on it.

Besides, the people that took advantage of the program had to pass certain requirements. Further to that, do you really think the banks want to lose MORE money?

Many people sit on the edge of being poor (at least by someones standards) and deal with setback after setback. It doesn't mean they ARE poor or that they have no money. This program to me seems like a leg up for those on the edge.

[adam c]

if they are on the "edge" of being poor or as you say, is a car really ideal for them? they need a major life adjustment not a new car that will cost them less in gas

[vtec4life]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by civiclvr



Now offer me a ~$9k high quality/relability/gas mileage saver car, that's going to cost me, on average, the same amount that i'm putting into my existing car monthly, and cost me less in gas. I'd jump on it.

Besides, the people that took advantage of the program had to pass certain requirements. Further to that, do you really think the banks want to lose MORE money?

Many people sit on the edge of being poor (at least by someones standards) and deal with setback after setback. It doesn't mean they ARE poor or that they have no money. This program to me seems like a leg up for those on the edge. [/QUOTE

How does adding another monthly expense give you a leg up? what if that person on "the edge" of being poor loses their job. Now they have one more collection agency looking to get a piece/destroy someones credit. Atleast if you have a payed off car you dont have to worry about something like that.

[403Gemini]

Originally posted by bituerbo
20k is a bit of an exaggeration for debt. I just ran some calculations, with the top 3, avg. purchase price comes out under $9800. For a brand new car that can reliably get them to and from their job/school, will save them ~$2000 over the next 3 years in gas.

Toyota Corolla:
$15,350
-$4500 CARS allownace
-1000 Toyota Customer Cash
________________________
$9850 for a 2009 Corolla


Honda Civic:
$15,505
-4500 CARS allowance
-750 dealer cash
________________
$ 10,255 for a 2009 Honda Civic Sedan.


Ford Focus:
$16,125 MSRP
-4,500 CARS allowance
-500 Ford customer Cash
-1500 Ford retail bonus customer cash
-500 Ford credit retail bonus.
_________________________
$9,215 for a 2009 Ford Focus SE

I really dont see why everybody is freaking out, with these prices even a college student can afford a new, safe, reliable car. I would have killed to have been able to buy a brand new civic sedan when i was going starting out college.

[civiclvr]

Originally posted by adam c
if they are on the "edge" of being poor or as you say, is a car really ideal for them? they need a major life adjustment not a new car that will cost them less in gas



Originally posted by vtec4life

/snip

How does adding another monthly expense give you a leg up? what if that person on "the edge" of being poor loses their job. Now they have one more collection agency looking to get a piece/destroy someones credit. Atleast if you have a payed off car you dont have to worry about something like that.

you both make essentially the same point. Sometimes a major life adjustment isn't possible. A mother w/ 2 kids and a falling apart car can't afford a new car, unless there's some sort of major break given by the government. But she needs it to get to daycare and her work. without transport, she's screwed. Everything this type of person does to change their life requires a certain amount of risk. Going to school would be even more debt and not an option in some cases.

Also, I think you're missing my point whereas the cost of running/maintaining the OLD car and the cost of a NEW car are moot or close enough to be damn near negligable.
running a new 2009 corolla verses an 88 olds? (for example)

And losing their job would leave most people screwed, no matter what. In an area where jobs are scarce, even a nest egg, that, in a high percentage doesn't exist, isn't going to make everything ok.

Anyways, be MAJORITY of the people taking advantage of this incentive are people of good financial backing. There's limits to the cost of the new car, there's checks in place to make sure they qualify. In fact, financially healthy people seem to abuse it the most.
Just because the news picks up a few people using the program that seem of low financial stability doesn't mean ALL of them are. It's the news.. they need sound clips. Do you trust wikipedia and Fox News for all your information?

[freshprince1]

Originally posted by vtec4life


Now offer me a ~$9k high quality/relability/gas mileage saver car, that's going to cost me, on average, the same amount that i'm putting into my existing car monthly, and cost me less in gas. I'd jump on it.

Besides, the people that took advantage of the program had to pass certain requirements. Further to that, do you really think the banks want to lose MORE money?

Many people sit on the edge of being poor (at least by someones standards) and deal with setback after setback. It doesn't mean they ARE poor or that they have no money. This program to me seems like a leg up for those on the edge. [/B]


Originally posted by civiclvr


How does adding another monthly expense give you a leg up? what if that person on "the edge" of being poor loses their job. Now they have one more collection agency looking to get a piece/destroy someones credit. Atleast if you have a payed off car you dont have to worry about something like that.

:facepalm: You totally missed his point.

He said it was a good idea IF the amount spent on repairs would have equaled the monthly cost to pay the difference on a new car, after the trade in value and discounts. If that is the case, it would be a good deal. If that is not the case for an individual, then I agree with you - bad idea.

[adam c]

when my mom was raising me, she didn't have a car, we took the bus everywhere. she was a single mom using the bus to take me from day care and then herself to work, she didn't buy a car until i was 5. so it is possible to live without a car, yes it's harder but it is do-able

[Sugarphreak]

...

[civiclvr]

Originally posted by freshprince1




:facepalm: You totally missed his point.

He said it was a good idea IF the amount spent on repairs would have equaled the monthly cost to pay the difference on a new car, after the trade in value and discounts. If that is the case, it would be a good deal. If that is not the case for an individual, then I agree with you - bad idea.

I don't know how you did it, but you mixed up who said what. lol



Originally posted by adam c
when my mom was raising me, she didn't have a car, we took the bus everywhere. she was a single mom using the bus to take me from day care and then herself to work, she didn't buy a car until i was 5. so it is possible to live without a car, yes it's harder but it is do-able

ok. that's great and I commend your mom. I also had a single mom growing up. however, I lived 45 min drive from the nearest bust stop. As I stated earlier. It would have been impossible for my mom without a car.


Originally posted by Sugarphreak


Well, aside from the fact that if you live in Alberta likely your job in some way depends on the oil revenue generated either directly or indirectly.

ok, I don't really see how this weighs in on anything on topic. We're talking about the US and their CARS program. Other than a minor query about how their lobbyists feel, the oil industry has not been brought into this.

[ipeefreely]

Originally posted by kaput
Still no help for GM or Chrysler :rofl:


They seem to be doing ok............

GM boosts Canadian plant output (http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2009/08/18/gm-output.html) :devil: