Becoming a commercial pilot?

[daatguy]

I'm hoping there are some pilots on beyond! :dunno:

I've always wanted to be a pilot since I was 6.
Anyways fast forward to present, I just got out of high school and have been looking at my options, and will most likely be upgrading this September. :nut:

Are there any specific high school courses I need to get into a pilot training school?

Any recommendation on which school to apply for?
(I'm hoping to move to Vancouver in a year or two)

Also, what is the process of becoming a pilot for a commercial airlines such as Air Canada, Delta, etc?

[urban.one]

http://www.calgaryflight.com/?p=courses/commercial

[vtec4life]

Mount Royal has an aviation program

[Sophal]

Best route. Join the military.

[foreverchina]

Is 20/20 vision required or is it ok to wear contacts?

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by daatguy

Also, what is the process of becoming a pilot for a commercial airlines such as Air Canada, Delta, etc?

Chances are good for getting into a regional airliner when you have 3000+ flight hours, and a major airliner when you have 5000+ flight hours.

Between now and then, expect to make dirt for pay, long hours, and bad conditions.

PLEASE do your research before heading straight for pilots school. AVCANADA.com is a good place to start asking questions.

[revelations]

OK, so I was in your shoes 10 years ago so I'll be blunt:

Do you have any idea about the retarded cost of becoming a commercial pilot?

To become a commercial pilot, you will be spending insane $$$ on a 4 year degree program (as required by most major airlines). Then once you graduate, you will end up, if lucky, in a regional airline position, where some new hires can make 20k a year!!&*%&*^$

The moral?

Get your PPL or a Rec licence and BUILD yourself a good kit plane (or buy a old,used Cessna). It will cost you about the same as going through all of the above and you will actually ENJOY flying instead of doing it for work.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by Sophal
Best route. Join the military.

:werd:

It is really the only way to get a log book strong enough to fly for any of the major airlines.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by sputnik


:werd:

It is really the only way to get a log book strong enough to fly for any of the major airlines.

Yeah, but 98% of the time, you need a 4 year university degree to become a pilot in the military (requirement to be an officer)

[daatguy]

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=54253

:facepalm:

[bubbley]

Wow just out of curiousity how much would a pilot for air canada roughly make?

[Stealth22]

Originally posted by bubbley
Wow just out of curiousity how much would a pilot for air canada roughly make?

ACA and WJA pilots will make considerably more. Don't quote me on this, but my best guess at starting salary is at least $35K to $40K a year...pilots for the big airlines will make decent pay, but when you're just starting out as a newly-licensed pilot, it really sucks. I considered going the commercial pilot route, but the amount of time and $$$ required for training before ACA/WJA will touch you kind of discouraged me.

I'm just going to get the PPL and fly for fun.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by Tik-Tok


Yeah, but 98% of the time, you need a 4 year university degree to become a pilot in the military (requirement to be an officer)

Which is why most Canadian Forces pilots get their education through the Armed Forces as well.

http://www.forces.ca/media/_pdf/rotp_civ_en.pdf

[craigcd]

I have a friend who is a pilot without considerable help from his parents he would have never made it. Also the willingness to go wherever you can work. His first job as a pilot he actually ended up cleaning the plane for a year before he got to do anything.

10 years later he is in a half decent position and will likely be able to go commercial in the next 5 years. I think he needs to further his education to fly jets or something also.

[n1zm0]

Originally posted by Stealth22
but when you're just starting out as a newly-licensed pilot, it really sucks. I considered going the commercial pilot route, but the amount of time and $$$ required for training before ACA/WJA will touch you kind of discouraged me.

I'm just going to get the PPL and fly for fun.

this, if you're lucky, you'll get a bs bush runner job after you get your CPL and some more hours, the guys flying
commercial jets have an extensive # of hours under their belt, they usually come from larger turboprop or citation/falcons, then from small M1/M2 variants like king airs/dorniers/metros then multi piston and before that of course single piston. then even before that with no hours whatsoever and fresh out with a CPL, you will probably do work as said above, aircraft grooming or sweep the hangar etc

I work for an F.T.U with a large # of PPL/CPL output and i see all these CPL kids come in every few months, spend loads of the parent's money and leave to find nothing, come back and go for instructor rating and gain hours through that by sitting right seat while teaching (free hours basically), only after that do they go work for sunwest/borek/cariboo and build up heavy hours doing business charter or w/e.then be a 1st officer for a commercial jet for another who knows how many years. you will be late 30s to 50s by the time you sit left seat in an airbus or 37.

edit: also to some comments above

-do not buy a kit plane or build an experimental a/c, seriously. buy something that has a Transport Canada recognized type certificate and please do NOT cheap out on maintenance if you plan to do that and find a reputable/trustworthy AMO or AME to do it. theres a reason T.C allow those guys to run loose around here..

-there is a huge difference in becoming a transport pilot and a fighter pilot for the Air Command, there are alot more tests for CF-18 candidates than if you were joining to fly an aurora or globemaster. a colleague had gone for the testing for CF-18 pilot in ontario, passed everything flawlessly except they found he was of northern european descent and fairly tall which in combination turns out to be a risk at high stress situations with the lungs, unable to breathe fast enough or something, he was declined because of that.

[Rat Fink]

.

[Cooked Rice]

You will only be successful if
A) Your family is bloody rich and your rents pay for it all
B) You do it cause you absolutely love it, and work your ass off to afford flying.

You need post secondary education, a Aviation diploma is highly recommended. No airline is going to hire someone with just air time and no education, they may use to, not these days.

Start off with a Aviation diploma at MRC or equivalent. That will get you your commercial license. Then you can get a Instructor rating and teach newbies how to get their rec. or private. During your time instructing you will basically be getting shit pay but getting free airtime. Any money you do make will go back into getting more endorsements, IFR, Night, Multi-Engine. All which you will need if you want a job as a pilot. By the time you've completed enough training to get a job (other than an instructor) you could have put a down payment on a pretty nice house.

I finished my training for my private and that's about as far as i think i'm gonna take it. I started when I was 13 years old, solo'd at 14. Most people who are pilots have a long family history of it.

My first flight instructor (27 now) works for Porter (regional airline in the east) flying Dash 400s.

My 2nd flight instructor quit instructing and went to work for Nav Canada as a ATC.

My third flight instructor got a job with CMA flying 1900s a couple years ago, he's 25 now.

[civicrider]

its not all that bad, a friend of mine took the course at MRC and got his CPL, then went down and flew in Belize for three years to get his hours up, shitty pay but your living in a beautiful place. After the three years he came home and got a job with Continental Airlines making 200k a year. You can have a good experience becoming a pilot if you build up your hours in a good place, not flying asshole riggers back and forth.

[bubbley]

Originally posted by civicrider
its not all that bad, a friend of mine took the course at MRC and got his CPL, then went down and flew in Belize for three years to get his hours up, shitty pay but your living in a beautiful place. After the three years he came home and got a job with Continental Airlines making 200k a year. You can have a good experience becoming a pilot if you build up your hours in a good place, not flying asshole riggers back and forth.

wow thats a nice salary :poosie:

[revelations]

So I think weve pretty much killed most peoples dreams of becoming an airline pilot.

Those who still go ahead after reading all this are either

a) rich
b) gluttons for punishment
c) deluded


:rofl:

[Tomaz]

PM me for questions you have. I can give you the basic run-down!

:thumbsup:

[civicrider]

so for anyone who has their commercial pilots license, did you take the 5-6 month course at the airport, or did you take the aviation course at MRC that takes 2 years?

[Tomaz]

I took a 2 year course with Calgary Flight Training Centre when it was still at the airport and was run by Mr. Joe White.

Since Johnny took over the place with Dan, I have had some issues with the school and refuse to go back.

Maybe things have changed, but i would not reccomend going there for the time being. I would suggest springbank or MRC. Med Hat used to have a program worth checking out. Same with lethbridge.

I wouldn't go to Morgan air out of Calgary international seeing they were the ones that trained the kid who parked behind the Antinov and was flipped! shit happens but still... shit!

[Lanks]

Originally posted by Sophal
Best route. Join the military.

Depends on what you eventually want. If you end up flying helicopters (not the applicants choice) then you will never get on with a major unless you start again. Also if you get on the CF18 then you could finish a 10 year career with only 800 hours which is hardly enough to get a job.


Originally posted by sputnik

:werd:
It is really the only way to get a log book strong enough to fly for any of the major airlines.

Umm sorry but no. You should only go into the military if you desire a military career. It will in no way fast track your career with any major airline. Some airlines in fact do not like military experience because it is tough to train a fighter pilot to function in a two crew environment.


Originally posted by Tik-Tok


Chances are good for getting into a regional airliner when you have 3000+ flight hours, and a major airliner when you have 5000+ flight hours.

Between now and then, expect to make dirt for pay, long hours, and bad conditions.

PLEASE do your research before heading straight for pilots school. AVCANADA.com is a good place to start asking questions.

All true.

[Lanks]

Originally posted by civicrider
so for anyone who has their commercial pilots license, did you take the 5-6 month course at the airport, or did you take the aviation course at MRC that takes 2 years?

A private pilot's licence will take at minimum, 2 months with most people taking more like 10-12. After that to do a course at a private flight school for your Commercial and Multi-IFR I would say you could do it all in another 8 months but you'd be working your ass off. Most people I know who have gone this route have taken 2 years plus...

At MRC you need your Private license to get into the two year program and in the program you complete your commercial and Multi-IFR. The benefit is that you WILL finish in just under two years (ie sept 1st year to april 2nd year) and you`ll have at least some post-secondary education to your name. Cost between this and a private school is the same plus the additional tuition for two full time years of school.

After all of this you will still need your Air Transport Pilot`s License (ATPL) before you can work for a major. takes 3-5 years industry experience.

[civicrider]

Originally posted by Lanks



After all of this you will still need your Air Transport Pilot`s License (ATPL) before you can work for a major. takes 3-5 years industry experience.

those three to five years is just getting hours up correct? And after you have enough hours to qualify is there an exam for the ATPL?

[jonnycat]

I went through Private and commecial ground school with big dreams of being a $200k/ year airline pilot.

After 2 years, the honeymoon was well over. I started to see all these guys training me making peanuts, living together in a airport hangar apartment, with a hot plate as the only appliance. I started hating "having" to fly just for hours. I always hoped it'd be too shitty outside to fly, or I'd get loaded the night before and not go because I was to hungover. I pulled the plug and got a job making $8.50/hour to start paying off my $50K in debt. Best decision I ever made.

Out of 30 some classmates 2 have made it to the commercial side and another who I lost contact with was working the baggage claim trying to work up the ladder.

Out of the 2 who made it, 1 had serious connections as his dad was Helicopter pilot in Nam with well over 20,000 hours logged and this guy worked his ass off when it came to flying. He worked up north flying Cubs, then he flew and lived in Antarctica for 5 months out of the year and in the maldives for another 5 months. He then took on a co-pilot role for chartered jet company and then flipped to Air Canada after 12 years.

I would seriously take the private ground school and get your licence just for fun. This way you can rent a plane go flying with your buddies and impress the ladies on a whim and not have to say goodbye to everyone for 5 years, and hope it all works out in the end..

[jonnycat]

Anyone on here go through Skywings in Red Deer?

[Lanks]

Originally posted by civicrider


those three to five years is just getting hours up correct? And after you have enough hours to qualify is there an exam for the ATPL?

Yeah that's right you need 1500 hours command or double that if it's co-pilot time. And yes there is also 2 written exams for the ATPL, but they are no big deal...

[AndyL]

What about rotary wing jocks? Heard rumors there is some $ in the heavy lift types... Ie ferries to the oil platforms...

[revelations]

^ Heli pilots spend even MORE on their training.
Best to have a source of funds other than loans (eg rich family).

[civic_ek4]

I have read that Cathay Pacific have now considered recruiting outside of HK due to poor local applicants.

Good luck!


http://www.cathaypacific.com/cpa/en_INTL/careers/flying/cadetpilot_requirements

[Lanks]

The government paid for a fair bit of my training... I got $28000 worth of Alberta and Canada student loans and when all was said and done I only owed ~$9000 back. The rest was all forgiven as loan relief and whatnot. This was back in 03-05 though

[civicrider]

so where and what did you guys do/go to get your hours up?

[AndyL]

Originally posted by revelations
^ Heli pilots spend even MORE on their training.
Best to have a source of funds other than loans (eg rich family).
Rotary wing is much more expensive yes...

But how is the hour building/opportunities after? Given the number of helicopters in the patch doing ferry work, line work, delivery work etc etc etc and the higher initial cost - that tends to keep many away ... One might suspect there could be an advantage to going rotary - if you don't mind doing grunt work (I've seen the line guys - I couldn't imagine hovering in the same spot for 4-5 hours straight myself but...)

[revelations]

The pilots I've talked to have said that once you get past the initial couple of hundred-hour barrier, the doors start to open up a little more than maybe for a fixed wing guy.

The more training you have, the better (eg long lining).

Its still like flying seized wing however, in that you have to put a lot of time in the middle of nowhere.

[civicrider]

why do all the sites say the cost to become a pilot is around 45k but all you guys say its around 80k? are you including what you spend in the 3-5 years getting your hours?

[sputnik]

Originally posted by civicrider
why do all the sites say the cost to become a pilot is around 45k but all you guys say its around 80k? are you including what you spend in the 3-5 years getting your hours?

Considering hiring a Cessna is about $100-150/hr... I would guess so.

[n1zm0]

Originally posted by civicrider
why do all the sites say the cost to become a pilot is around 45k but all you guys say its around 80k? are you including what you spend in the 3-5 years getting your hours?

ALL dependant on where you go but :
the rental for a C-172 is around + or - $100-130/hr depending on who you decide to go with, you have to pay the rental for those in which you are the PIC or in an aircraft for 450ish hours. second you have to do a minimum of 80 hours or so ground school say 20/hr for the instructor. you're looking at around $60k off the top of my head + or - prices, the extra $20k could go towards multi IFR training if you want that much more chance at getting a job.

[Cooked Rice]

Originally posted by jonnycat
Anyone on here go through Skywings in Red Deer?

yup!

that's where I did my training when I lived there. no landing/airport fees to deal with, so it's probably one of the cheapest places in alberta to learn. airport isn't busy like springbank either, and you still got a ATC on the ground keeping things in check. great place to learn to fly imo. they also got a C152 you can rent, which is what i did all my training in, i've flown a 172 a few times as well. but the 152 is more fun to fly imo, you feel like you're a part of the plane. you can't have 2 male adults w/ full fuel in there though, or you'll be over grossed. you'll have to go partial tanks if you want to take a friend up, unless it's a girl (who isn't fat, lol).

[kevie88]

Originally posted by Tomaz
I wouldn't go to Morgan air out of Calgary international seeing they were the ones that trained the kid who parked behind the Antinov and was flipped! shit happens but still... shit!


I'm training at Morgan Air, so far they've been great. I learned about this topic before I got into a plane, and the minimum distances behind big planes to avoid wash are clearly stated in their classes. You could be the greatest instructor ever to fly and there's no accounting for the level of stupidity in the general public! :rofl:

[civicrider]

wow is every beyond member a pilot?

[kevie88]

Originally posted by civicrider
wow is every beyond member a pilot?

I'm still a wannabe.. haven't even solo'd yet.

[Lanks]

Originally posted by n1zm0


ALL dependant on where you go but :
the rental for a C-172 is around + or - $100-130/hr depending on who you decide to go with, you have to pay the rental for those in which you are the PIC or in an aircraft for 450ish hours. second you have to do a minimum of 80 hours or so ground school say 20/hr for the instructor. you're looking at around $60k off the top of my head + or - prices, the extra $20k could go towards multi IFR training if you want that much more chance at getting a job.

Ughh man you need to stop posting about this.. or at least ask some of the instructors at your work before you do... the misinformation here is ridiculous.

First of all, the full time instructors at your work are probably lucky to log 450 hours per year so do you really think that there are people out there who are there for the same amount of time as the full time employees except pay for all of the flight time??

When you finish all of your training (Multi and IFR included) you should have around 200-225 hours. You are then ready to get a job. if you pay for any more hours than this you are a fool as somebody should be paying you by then. Sure you may have to work the ramp for a bit but buying another 200-225 hours is totally ridiculous.

The reason for the difference between what flight schools quote and the actual price usually depends on the students skill and dedication. If you finish all of your training in the minimum prescribed times (by Transport Canada) it will cost less (like $40000) if you take longer (as almost everybody does) it will cost more (upwards of $60000) FWIW in my past experience when I was a flight instructor almost nobody finished anything in the minimum times required by Transport

[AndyL]

Originally posted by civicrider
wow is every beyond member a pilot?
Or wannabe :)

I was -><- this close to my PP (2-3 hours away) about 15 years ago... Had that nice deal - extended family owned aircraft (a J3 Cub - yellow too!); didn't get used - so just paid for gas; one of my co-workers at the airport was one of these instructors looking for time - so he was cheap (case o beer a week I think was our deal).

Ground looped doing circuits - no damage but... Keys got taken away... :banghead:

Didn't log in too many hours after that...

I keep eyeballing the ultralights lately - those look like way too much fun... One of these days I'll need to have a look at the rules for those licenses...

[Rat Fink]

.

[07E92]

Hopefully I can be of some assistance here. There's both good information throughout this thread and some misinformation too. As a 1000 hour commercial pilot/flight instructor I hope to shed some light on the goods and bads of a carreer in aviation.

As someone else had mentioned if you want a great Canadian based pilot forum check out www.avcanada.ca, the flight training section has a good load of detail in regards to getting started/choosing a flight school.

To answer a few of your questions, there are no required high schools courses, you will learn some very basic physics and be required to do some basic mathematics (two courses in high school that i certainly did not excel at but had no difficulty with in terms of there relation to aviation)

In my experience (and I could be wrong) I haven't actually seen much benefit to doing a degree/diploma program in aviation. The most successful people i've seen have generally gone to a non college/diploma flight school, gotten there licenses and ratings quickly and gotten into the workforce to build hours and experience as quickly as possible, rather than spending years on other classes only to walk out with a diploma/degree and 200 hours. I almost wonder what I was doing spending 5 years at the U of C before finishing my commercial ticket. A degree will help at Air Canada, Westjet or any major airline but from what I understand is not a requirement, from what i've seen/heard someone with a thousand extra hours or more diverse flying experience would most likely get the job over someone with the minimum amount of hirable hours and post secondary education.

Someone also asked about vision... to be a pilot in the military you will need 20/20 vision, this can however be 20/20 corrected by contact lenses or glasses. Don't quote me on this but I don't think you need 20/20 to be a commercial pilot though it has to be very close. You can hold a private pilots license and be color blind however to hold a commercial license that is unrestricted for day and night flight you cannot be color blind. Before soloing (taking your first flight without an instructor on board, on average 12-25 hours under your belt) you will need to pass a medical exam, I recommend before starting training to get this done or at least call an aviation doctor with any questions you may have before hand, no sense in spending thousands/committing lots of time to your private license only to find out that you cannot become a commercial pilot. Here is a list of aviation medical examiners in the Calgary area: http://www.morganair.ca/links/medical-examiners.cfm

Cost... plan to spend from 40-75 k obtaining your private license, night rating, commercial license, multi engine endorsement and instrument rating. All flight schools will quote everything in the minimum times required by Transport Canada, for example to hold a private pilots license you require 45 hours, the national average however is 60-65.

Fortunately there are a variety of scholarships/student loans/bursaries/grants available.

After spending a boat load of money and holding a nice shiny commercial license, unfortunately you are not exactly all that employable. There are options though, Some people go up north and take on bush flying jobs (passengers and or cargo) in relatively small non complex aircraft, some people like myself who want to stay in the city do a flight instructor rating and can then teach people how to fly/do scenic flights/aerial photography flights/teach ground school etc. others may fly skydivers, do powerline/pipeline patrol (low level inspection flying). Get a float rating and fly small pontoon planes etc. When you start getting closer to 500 hours experience you may be lucky enough to move up and fly a slightly more complex bigger airplane. Around 1000 hours you might get hired by a smaller company (Ken Borek Air, Central Mountain Air, North Cariboo etc, smaller charter companies, medevac etc.) From there possibly Westjet, Air Canada...

There are some interesting blogs of a pilots life here/different jobs and what they entail. http://www.pilotcareercenter.com/PilotsLifeHome.aspx

Its not great pay to start, the hours can be brutal and the industry can be very cut throat at times... I'll be lucky to clear 32 K this year on my T4. With this said though I love what I do, and go in to work with a smile on my face each day. I take a lot of pride in seeing/helping someone with zero flying experience take there first flight alone or pass there flying test becoming a licensed pilot. I've had some neat experiences helping people buy planes/ferry them back from Florida and Texas. I've got to cover a lot of this country low level in a small Cessna and met some great people along the way. I'm on pace to log about 700 hours this year and learn/develop new skills each day and hour flying both as a pilot and person

Feel free to PM me with any specifics

[KIMB]

Originally posted by Sophal
Best route. Join the military.
+1000

by far the best training and you dont end up with 100g's in student loans

[civicrider]

is there a flight school you could recommend in the springbank airport, I can only find springbankair.com

[scat19]

CFC

Calgary Flying Club

[Tomaz]

^^^ Heard good things about them.

[Maxx Mazda]

I started flying when I was 14. I'm 24 now. I began with calgary flight, and did a majority of my training there. Because of my age, I was ready for my Private at 16, but had to get my Rec. Permit because the age requirement for your PPL is 17. Kinda dragged my ass a bit, got my PPL at 18, and night rating and Commercial by the time I was 21. Multi and IFR came at 22 and at 23 I got hired at Sunwest on the Navajo, but had to work the ramp part time and fly part time. Laid off when the economic crunch hit, one flight shy of my Navajo PPC, and have been realitivly dormant since. Doing the odd skydive drop or aerial survey work, etc but nothing substantial.

Before I go any further, let me reflect on my training. All in all, I can say that I wasted a TON of money because I didn't do it "all at once." You'd be suprised how many "review" flights you need to get back where you were if you havnt flown in a month, so take heed of my words and make sure you do it all on one big run at it. I started too early in life, and had to wait for my licences to catch up with me so to speak, and in doing so, other things came up, bills had to be paid, etc. I worked part time at least since I was 16, and full time after high school. It took me 8 years to do all my training, at the total cost of somewhere around $85,000. $30,000 was set aside for me by my parents, the rest I had to pay myself or take out a student loan for. My parents made too much money for me to get a grant, despite the fact that they weren't helping me with it anymore - but that's another story.

I went throught CFTC's "Diploma Program" but after two semesters found it lacked structure in a huge way, and I was just wasting money on a worthless diploma. I dropped out of the diploma program but continued to fly there until Johnny really took over and drove that school into the ground. I left before it got really bad, but I still have plenty of horror stories.

So, I'm an out of work pilot, in a sea of dozens of other 350hr guys just like myself, just waiting. I still want to do it as a career, despite the financial aspect of it. I love to fly, and that's that. I made $32,500/yr at Sunwest on the Navajo. Not bad as a first officer on a single pilot aircraft. Better than I'd make at CMA actually, but still. Getting laid off was a blessing in disguise. I still talk to everyone there and alot of friends of mine have 1,100 hours total now, but 900 of that is right seat on a Navajo, which lets be honest, doesn't count for much. The paydirt "logbook wise" is when you get that left seat and start racking up the multi PIC time. The captain line for a navajo there is huge though, guys that are 2 year FO's are still a ways away from that seat. The industry is stagnant right now. Anyone who has a job isn't going to give it up, and without any movement no one new gets hired. I can't emphasize enough the saying "it's who you know" because in aviation, that's exactly it. Get to know WHOEVER YOU CAN! They might be in a position to hand you a job someday. I've made literally hundreds of contacts over the years, and I do my best to keep in touch with them. Even if it's just the odd "hello" on facebook or something every few months. Keep in touch with everyone.

I'm still working in the industry, and making good money at it, but being a pilot is definitly my ultimate goal, despite the hardships.

So, in closing, if you want to do it as a career, it will be frustrating, and expensive as f*ck. The days are long, the pay is shit, the weather is cold and the hours of sleep are few and far between. But when you break out on top of that overcast layer at 7am, when the world below is drowning in that torrential rainstorm, and you get to see the sun come up and witness something that very few others get to, that's the best damn office chair in the world if you ask me.

[B20EF]

My old man is a captain with Air Canada, he always told me if I wanted to go the pilot route to join the military because he didn't want to pay for it. :(