Ex-soldier gets life sentences for Iraqi murders

[turbotrip]

Green convicted in rape and murder of teen and slaying of three relatives

PADUCAH, Ky. - A former U.S. soldier received five consecutive life sentences Friday for his role in the rape and murder of an Iraqi teenager and the slaying of three of her family members.

"What the defendant did was horrifying and inexcusable," U.S. District Judge Thomas Russell said in sentencing Steven Dale Green, 24. "The court believes any lesser sentence would be insufficient."

A civilian jury convicted Green in May of raping Abeer Qassim al-Janabi, conspiracy and multiple counts of murder.

Green shot and killed the teen's mother, father and sister, then became the third soldier to rape her before shooting her in the face. Her body was set on fire March 12, 2006, at their rural home outside Mahmoudiya, Iraq, about 20 miles (32 kilometers) south of Baghdad.

Green was the first person charged under the Military Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Act, a law passed in 2000 that allows U.S. authorities to prosecute former military personnel, contractors and others for crimes committed overseas.

Unanimous decision couldn't be reached
The panel couldn't reach an unanimous decision about whether Green should get a death sentence, automatically making Green's sentence life in prison. Barring a successful appeal or presidential pardon, Green will not be eligible for release from prison.

Green told the judge he merely followed orders from other soldiers involved in the attack.

"You can act like I'm a sociopath. You can act like I'm a sex offender or whatever," Green said. "If I had not joined the Army, if I had not gone to Iraq, I would not have got caught up in anything."

At a hearing in May, Green repeatedly apologized to the al-Janabi family, saying he knew little about Iraqis and realizes now his actions then were wrong. Green described the attacks as "evil" and said when he dies "there will be justice and whatever I deserve, I'll get."

During Green's trial, defense attorneys never contested Green's role in the attacks. Instead, they focused on saving his life by putting on witnesses that testified that the military failed Green on multiple fronts — by allowing a troubled teen into the service, not recognizing and helping a soldier struggling emotionally and providing inadequate leadership.

During the sentencing hearing, defense attorney Patrick Bouldin said Green tried to take responsibility for his role in the attacks, twice offering to plead guilty and serve life in prison. Assistant U.S. Attorney Marisa Ford said one offer came on the eve of jury selection, the other two weeks into jury selection.

‘All I ever did was what they told me’
Green and four other soldiers with the 101st Airborne Division based at Fort Campbell, Kentucky, were investigated after the killings. Three who went to the family's home, along with Green, received lengthy sentences up to 110 years but will become eligible for parole in seven years. Another who had a lesser role was released from military prison after serving 27 months.

All except Green were charged under the Uniform Code of Military Justice and faced a military trial, known as a court martial. Two of the soldiers who were at the home when Green shot the family pleaded guilty and a military jury convicted a third.

Green said the idea of his co-defendants being out of prison one day is "all right with me."

"They planned it," Green said. "All I ever did was what they told me to do."

By the time the Army pressed charges in June 2006, Green had been honorably discharged with a personality disorder and returned to the United States. Because Green had been discharged, prosecutors filed an indictment against him as a civilian.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32694246/ns/world_news-conflict_in_iraq/

[TurboD]

another typical war story

just imagine the things that go on that don't go reported.

and people wonder why there is so much hate and retaliation towards north America for this war...

people in north America put ribbons on their cars and claim to support the war, if they only had a clue what is going on over there.
this story is another example that just because you have a flag on your shoulder and you are dressed in a government issued costume, this does not mean that you are not capable of making bad decisions.

[homelessman]

Agree that this is bad

If you are going to report this, please post instances where Taliban/ AQ operatives do the same.

[homelessman]

Originally posted by TurboD
another typical war story

just imagine the things that go on that don't go reported.

and people wonder why there is so much hate and retaliation towards north America for this war...

people in north America put ribbons on their cars and claim to support the war, if they only had a clue what is going on over there.
this story is another example that just because you have a flag on your shoulder and you are dressed in a government issued costume, this does not mean that you are not capable of making bad decisions.

Typical closet Taliban/Al qaeda supporter. You raise flags when Western counties commit crimes, but when anyone of your color skin do it, there is silence. Lots of you around and the silence is disturbing.

[narou]

:drama:

[mx73someday]

I'd rather suffer through getting in trouble with the military for not following orders than rape/kill people if it was indeed "just following orders". But then again, I would never join the military.

homelessman, there are instances where the Taliban and Al-Qaeda have invaded, then raped and killed American families?

[homelessman]

Originally posted by mx73someday
I'd rather suffer through getting in trouble with the military for not following orders than rape/kill people if it was indeed "just following orders". But then again, I would never join the military.

homelessman, there are instances where the Taliban and Al-Qaeda have invaded, then raped and killed American families?

Spin it! :) Not on American soil. AQ/Taliban do terrible things (rape, torture, intimidate, kill) to their own all the time. Never posted on here.

Fuck any of you who support AQ/TB.

[banned3x]

Originally posted by mx73someday
I'd rather suffer through getting in trouble with the military for not following orders than rape/kill people if it was indeed "just following orders". But then again, I would never join the military.

homelessman, there are instances where the Taliban and Al-Qaeda have invaded, then raped and killed American families?

9/11? they invaded us air space, raped/fucked every person on the air plane and towers, im guessing 95% on that plane and towers were american.

so to answer your question YES they did invaded, then raped and killed American families.

[tawheed]

Originally posted by homelessman


Spin it! :) Not on American soil. AQ/Taliban do terrible things (rape, torture, intimidate, kill) to their own all the time. Never posted on here.

Fuck any of you who support AQ/TB.

Post up some links! :)

[CUG]

Originally posted by homelessman


Typical closet Taliban/Al qaeda supporter. You raise flags when Western counties commit crimes, but when anyone of your color skin do it, there is silence. Lots of you around and the silence is disturbing. I like what you said here and your attitude about it, so please don't get banned. I agree with you completely.

[FlySi]

Hopefully he gets raped in jail, rapist shitbag

[mugen6]

The point of war is to stop terrorist, rape, murders what happens when an American invades another country and does the same?

[mx73someday]

Originally posted by homelessman


Spin it! :) Not on American soil. AQ/Taliban do terrible things (rape, torture, intimidate, kill) to their own all the time. Never posted on here.

That's because it's not news, people get raped and killed by their own people in every country. Some countries are better than others obviously. What's newsworthy is when a country crosses oceans and skies to occupy a country in the name of saving them only to be just as evil as the original evil group.

It sounds like you think that no bad stories about the US military should be reported, or at least unless as many similar bad stories are reported about the US's enemies.


Originally posted by homelessman

Fuck any of you who support AQ/TB.



No one in this thread supports them. Can I assume that you support the US military? Is that why you react to bad news stories about them as supporting their enemies?


Originally posted by banned3x

9/11? they invaded us air space, raped/fucked every person on the air plane and towers, im guessing 95% on that plane and towers were american.

so to answer your question YES they did invaded, then raped and killed American families.



I'm pretty sure 9/11 made the news, so no unfair reporting here.

[TurboD]

Originally posted by banned3x


9/11? they invaded us air space, raped/fucked every person on the air plane and towers, im guessing 95% on that plane and towers were american.

so to answer your question YES they did invaded, then raped and killed American families.


they they they?

so if one small group of shit heads kills americans, then its ok to label an entire nation THEY and then go into their country and rape and kill whoever you please and call it even.

fuck that.


and i DO raise flags when the west does evil things to innocent nations.

if you do not raise a flag and instead support this behavior, you are the one with a problem, not me.

over 7 years and we don't even have bin ladens head, thats how dedicated we are to finding the people responsible.

instead the US is over there killing and raping innocent people not involved with AQ/TB

[stealth]

Originally posted by banned3x


9/11? they invaded us air space, raped/fucked every person on the air plane and towers, im guessing 95% on that plane and towers were american.

so to answer your question YES they did invaded, then raped and killed American families.

I never knew that Iraq flew the planes into the WTC and invaded Americans... This is new news to me.

homelessman, you are just another prime example of an un-educated piece of shit, that spews out bullshit that he hears and believes from other people.

[Redwagon]

Originally posted by TurboD



they they they?

so if one small group of shit heads kills americans, then its ok to label an entire nation THEY and then go into their country and rape and kill whoever you please and call it even.

fuck that.


and i DO raise flags when the west does evil things to innocent nations.

if you do not raise a flag and instead support this behavior, you are the one with a problem, not me.

over 7 years and we don't even have bin ladens head, thats how dedicated we are to finding the people responsible.

instead the US is over there killing and raping innocent people not involved with AQ/TB

Your "they they they?" rant is pretty much worthless when YOU do the same thing with your "instead the US is over there killing and raping innocent people not involved with AQ/TB"

So if one small group of shit heads kills and rapes then its ok to label an entire nation?

Hypocrisy at its best :facepalm:

[TorqueDog]

Originally posted by Redwagon
Your "they they they?" rant is pretty much worthless when YOU do the same thing with your "instead the US is over there killing and raping innocent people not involved with AQ/TB"

So if one small group of shit heads kills and rapes then its ok to label an entire nation?

Hypocrisy at its best :facepalm: Is it really that hard to take the post in proper context by realizing that "the US" is referring to "the US military"?

[Type_B]

Originally posted by stealth


I never knew that Iraq flew the planes into the WTC and invaded Americans... This is new news to me.

homelessman, you are just another prime example of an un-educated piece of shit, that spews out bullshit that he hears and believes from other people.


not quite "homelessman just another example of an american ignoranus.":facepalm:

[Rat Fink]

.

[homelessman]

Originally posted by stealth


I never knew that Iraq flew the planes into the WTC and invaded Americans... This is new news to me.

homelessman, you are just another prime example of an un-educated piece of shit, that spews out bullshit that he hears and believes from other people.

Really? That is the best you can come up with? Well, you are from Edmonton.

Based on your profile, grammar, and what you currently drive, I am going to assume that you are some 17 year old moron still living at home. Go read a book.

[TurboD]

Originally posted by homelessman


Really? That is the best you can come up with? Well, you are from Edmonton.

Based on your profile, grammar, and what you currently drive, I am going to assume that you are some 17 year old moron still living at home. Go read a book.

in comes the personal attacks when you have no argument to assert.

based on what the guy drives?

what a living fail you are

[TurboD]

Originally posted by Redwagon


Your rant is pretty much worthless when YOU do the same thing with your "instead the US is over there killing and raping innocent people not involved with AQ/TB

The entire US is involved directly or indirectly.

who do you think funds the war?
who do you think supports the war?

i bet that innocent family didn't wear a ribbon pendant showing their support for the AQ/TB

[Rat Fink]

.

[Redwagon]

Originally posted by TorqueDog
Is it really that hard to take the post in proper context by realizing that "the US" is referring to "the US military"?

Is it really that hard to understand that not ALL of the personnel in the US military rape and kill? Or you seem to like generalizing too?

[Redwagon]

Originally posted by TurboD


The entire US is involved directly or indirectly.

who do you think funds the war?
who do you think supports the war?

i bet that innocent family didn't wear a ribbon pendant showing their support for the AQ/TB

Wow! The entire US is involved directly or indirectly? There are people who are against the war, despite your narrow-minded thinking that all US people are bad, bad people.

[homelessman]

^ Don't even waste your time with turbod man. Kiddies like him will never get it.

BTW, for you knuckleheads that wanted links detailing Al Qaeda rapes, here they are. AQ organized the rapes of women and men to humiliate them and turn them into suicide bombers. Never saw that thread here :)

All I am saying is that you guys should pay attention to the news and create threads whenever your AQ buddies over there rape women, blow themselves up, throw acid on school kids, etc. oh wait, that shit isn't news. You dirty fuckers.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article5661466.ece
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=22487
http://infidelsarecool.com/2009/02/05/al-qaeda-raping-men-to-humiliate-them-into-suicide-bombing/

[top_speed]

Originally posted by homelessman


Really? That is the best you can come up with? Well, you are from Edmonton.

Based on your profile, grammar, and what you currently drive, I am going to assume that you are some 17 year old moron still living at home. Go read a book.
says the guy who...
BMW from dad - sold
AUDI from dad - sold
RANGE ROVER from dad - sold
BENZ from dad - sold
ASTON MARTIN - dads but i can put it here
*SECRET CAR!!* from dad - sold
DAT DERE SUPRA from dad - sold

[homelessman]

Originally posted by top_speed

says the guy who...
BMW from dad - sold
AUDI from dad - sold
RANGE ROVER from dad - sold
BENZ from dad - sold
ASTON MARTIN - dads but i can put it here
*SECRET CAR!!* from dad - sold
DAT DERE SUPRA from dad - sold

Yes, because clearly those are cars that were purchased by my dad, and NOT a joke about other peoples' sigs.

[TurboD]

Originally posted by Redwagon


Is it really that hard to understand that not ALL of the personnel in the US military rape and kill? Or you seem to like generalizing too?

whether or not they have actually killed someone is not relevant, the fact is, they are part of the same organization.

if the mob leader doesn't actually kill anyone, that doesn't make him not involved.

[CUG]

It's really cool and hip to side with the bad guys these days. I don't respect countries that don't have democratic process. I don't respect people who go to a different country to get away from it, yet glorify their shitty homeland that they fled out of desperation for a better life.

[CUG]

Originally posted by TurboD


whether or not they have actually killed someone is not relevant, the fact is, they are part of the same organization.

if the mob leader doesn't actually kill anyone, that doesn't make him not involved. You're Canadian, which means your people kill, rape, steal and defraud. You're starting to sound like a clown. Stop.

[Redwagon]

Originally posted by TurboD


they are all part of an organization that kills, and apparently rapes as well.
if someone is part of the AQ organization and hasn't killed anyone yet that doesn't make him not part of the group'

Haha, now we're pulling out the terrible analogies?

Ok, did you realize that Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka were Canadians? And guess what? You're also Canadian, so you are a serial rapist and murderer.

[TurboD]

Originally posted by CUG
It's really cool and hip to side with the bad guys these days. I don't respect countries that don't have democratic process. I don't respect people who go to a different country to get away from it, yet glorify their shitty homeland that they fled out of desperation for a better life.

who are you talking about here?

i would call the group that rapes and kills non violent families THE BAD GUYS

[TurboD]

Originally posted by CUG
You're Canadian, which means your people kill, rape, steal and defraud. You're starting to sound like a clown. Stop.

you are almost correct, but not quite

I am involved in this war, because I am funding it through taxes.

This is against my will, but i cannot dispute the fact that I am involved in this war.

so yes, when the canadian military kills innocent people it is through my money they are able to do this.
so i do feel partially responsible.

your problem CUG is that you think north america is the Heros of the world in this war.
you don't quite realize that killing to stop killing is a lose lose situation.
you cannot tell an organization to stop killing by killing them, this is a double standard that you don't seem to understand.

[DayGlow]

Originally posted by TurboD


whether or not they have actually killed someone is not relevant, the fact is, they are part of the same organization.

if the mob leader doesn't actually kill anyone, that doesn't make him not involved.

so all muslims are terrorists?

[TurboD]

Originally posted by DayGlow


so all muslims are terrorists?

that's a touchy subject, i don't really know how to answer it without disrespecting someone.

they aren't responsible for the actions of other in their group, but they cannot condone the actions.
so in a way they are enablers to violence.

[homelessman]

Originally posted by TurboD


that's a touchy subject, i don't really know how to answer it without disrespecting someone.

they aren't responsible for the actions of other in their group, but they cannot condone the actions.
so in a way they are enablers to violence.

Speak up, don't get all sensitive and touchy now!

You disrespect America any chance you get.

Do go on :)

[TurboD]

i never disrespected the states, just stating facts.

[mx73someday]

Originally posted by homelessman

You disrespect America any chance you get.

You're missing the point of why stories like this are reported. It's not to hate the US or its citizens, it's to make aware the hypocrisies and foolishness of war. For people who want the war to end sooner than later, it's important for these kinds of stories to get out. The less reputable the war gets, the sooner it will end.

Do you want the war to continue? It's sad that I have to ask this, but maybe you think that the US can still win it. Also you never answered my questions from my previous post.

[turbotrip]

Originally posted by CUG
It's really cool and hip to side with the bad guys these days. I don't respect countries that don't have democratic process. I don't respect people who go to a different country to get away from it, yet glorify their shitty homeland that they fled out of desperation for a better life.

LOL bad guys? most of the world sees the US as the bad guys.

[homelessman]

Originally posted by turbotrip


LOL bad guys? most of the world sees the US as the bad guys.

I think he is referring to you guys admiring the Taliban/Al Qaeda.

Shouldn't you be hanging posters of them on your walls? Watching videos of them bombing Humvee's while speaking jibberish and yacking on about Allah and getting to pound virgins in heaven (lawl).

[turbotrip]

Originally posted by homelessman


I think he is referring to you guys admiring the Taliban/Al Qaeda.

Shouldn't you be hanging posters of them on your walls? Watching videos of them bombing Humvee's while speaking jibberish and yacking on about Allah and getting to pound virgins in heaven (lawl).

i havent seen anyone admiring taliban in this thread. but its obvious from your posts that reading comprehension is not one of your strong points.

[mugen6]

Originally posted by top_speed

says the guy who...
BMW from dad - sold
AUDI from dad - sold
RANGE ROVER from dad - sold
BENZ from dad - sold
ASTON MARTIN - dads but i can put it here
*SECRET CAR!!* from dad - sold
DAT DERE SUPRA from dad - sold

Lol just tell the American to go back to his country buahahaha

[FlySi]

just wondering which one in the pic is CUG and which one is homeless man?

[homelessman]

Originally posted by FlySi
just wondering which one in the pic is CUG and which one is homeless man?

Oh wow

Now that was classy. You idiot.

[top_speed]

Originally posted by FlySi
just wondering which one in the pic is CUG and which one is homeless man?
haha i think the bald one is homeless

[turbotrip]

Originally posted by FlySi
just wondering which one in the pic is CUG and which one is homeless man?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[v2kai]

homelessman's old sig was funny, i cant believe some of you guys missed that....everything else that has to do with him though is shit

[Redlyne_mr2]

That soldier can't even man up to what he did. Blaming anyone and everyone for the actions he committed.

[bashir26]

Originally posted by TurboD


that's a touchy subject, i don't really know how to answer it without disrespecting someone.

they aren't responsible for the actions of other in their group, but they cannot condone the actions.
so in a way they are enablers to violence.

No, we are not. They condone the attacks at every mosque you go to. Its always easy to condone something because were not in the same situation they are in. We don't live in the some conditions that they live in.

Having said that if the US kill iraqis or the Israelis kill palestines its called War and OK with body count....but if they retaliate its called terrorism.

[TurboD]

Originally posted by bashir26


No, we are not. They condone the attacks at every mosque you go to. Its always easy to condone something because were not in the same situation they are in. We don't live in the some conditions that they live in.

Having said that if the US kill iraqis or the Israelis kill palestines its called War and OK with body count....but if they retaliate its called terrorism.

you tell me what the penalty for Apostasy is in your religion and then i will tell you why I think you cannot condone when other members of your faith commit violent acts.

fact: you worship a book that has violent passages

fact: passages can be interpreted differently to different people

fact: you cannot tell someone how they should interpret their holy book

fact: whether you can admit it or not you are part of a violent organization


but if they retaliate its called terrorism.

LOL, if i bomb your country its OK but if you fight back that makes you a terrorist.

LOL

[stealth]

Originally posted by homelessman


Really? That is the best you can come up with? Well, you are from Edmonton.

Based on your profile, grammar, and what you currently drive, I am going to assume that you are some 17 year old moron still living at home. Go read a book.

Yea, you got me figured out...

You really are un-educated and judgemental.

Idiot.

[bashir26]

Originally posted by TurboD


you tell me what the penalty for Apostasy is in your religion and then i will tell you why I think you cannot condone when other members of your faith commit violent acts.

fact: you worship a book that has violent passages

fact: passages can be interpreted differently to different people

fact: you cannot tell someone how they should interpret their holy book

fact: whether you can admit it or not you are part of a violent organization

To fully understand the what is stated in the Quran you have to fully read the book. It's like reading a normal book. If you read a few sentences here and a paragraph there you won't really understand the point the book is trying to get across. To fully understand all the key topics you have to fully read the book and study it.

So I can understand where you are coming from I really do, but you really have to read the full context to fully understand the points the Quran is trying to make and it by far violence.


Once you do I can have a educated argument with you.





LOL, if i bomb your country its OK but if you fight back that makes you a terrorist.

LOL

I know hard to believe, but it does happen.

[JimmyBurner]

Originally posted by homelessman


I think he is referring to you guys admiring the Taliban/Al Qaeda.

Shouldn't you be hanging posters of them on your walls? Watching videos of them bombing Humvee's while speaking jibberish and yacking on about Allah and getting to pound virgins in heaven (lawl).
What a dumbfuck. Looks like CUG recruited another half-retarded hillbilly to the crew. Wtf do you believe in, homelessman? Your a big bad man on the internet. You know what's funny though, a stupid "jibberish speaking" Muslim like me can speak better english than you... and i speak jibberish. People aren't supporting the Taliban, they're stating that it's utter foolishness to claim democracy and peace when your soldiers are in Iraq raping little girls in front of their parents. It's even worse to think of how hard it is to get these stories out, so imagine what else the army is doing over there.

[ZorroAMG]

This thread is so full of fucking ignorant assholes with absolutely NO concept of the world outside their shit-laden red-neck bubbles. Try listening to things other than the american news, try leaving the country for places other than the US or Mexico and start understanding that your REFUCKINGTARDED kind aren't the only ones in the world.

Homelesscunt, CUG, banned3x et al...get fucked ok?

Oh and please come at me with some comment about me loving al queda and the taliban...fucking joke children.

[5hift]

Originally posted by v2kai
homelessman's old sig was funny, i cant believe some of you guys missed that....everything else that has to do with him though is shit

:werd:

Wonder who removed it

[turbotrip]

Originally posted by TurboD

fact: you worship a book that has violent passages

fact: muslims dont worship any book

fact: most major religions have some violent passages in their books; including christianity and judaism


Originally posted by TurboD

fact: whether you can admit it or not you are part of a violent organization

fact: you like to make up random statements and pass them off as facts

[TurboD]

Originally posted by turbotrip

fact: most major religions have some violent passages in their books; including christianity and judaism


and i would agree, most religions are fundamentally violent.
and more importantly, gods (allah) do not exist.

and bashir26 - you don't need to prove yourself to me, but if you could find a passage about apostasy and show me the entire context so i can see the entire passage.

because im sure you know the book better than me and can give me the entire passage so that i don't read just a small section of it.

Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them"

i dont understand how that can be taken any other way,
it says what it says.


that verse has the entire context.
it doesnt say (just kidding) after that verse

and if you interpret that verse differently, on what authority is your interpretation right and mine wrong.

[DRKM]

Originally posted by TurboD


and i would agree, most religions are fundamentally violent.
and more importantly, gods (allah) do not exist.

and bashir26 - you don't need to prove yourself to me, but if you could find a passage about apostasy and show me the entire context so i can see the entire passage.

because im sure you know the book better than me and can give me the entire passage so that i don't read just a small section of it.

Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them"

i dont understand how that can be taken any other way,
it says what it says.


that verse has the entire context.
it doesnt say (just kidding) after that verse

and if you interpret that verse differently, on what authority is your interpretation right and mine wrong.

I am not religous in any matter, but this is pure ignorance.

Have you read the bible? If so by your logic christians condone slavery, sexism, stoning of woman that commit adultery, destroying cities that have homosexuals and all sorts of crazy bullshit.

To say that Muslims are more fundementally violent then any other religion is complely ignorant.

To Homeless and CUG, I do not see how anyone in this thread has been admiring the AQ/TB. Apparently anyone who does not share the same opinion as you guys is considered a terrorist sympathizer.
50 years ago you guys would have fit in very well in a little group called: the SS.

[Shunsui]

Originally posted by TurboD


and i would agree, most religions are fundamentally violent.
and more importantly, gods (allah) do not exist.

and bashir26 - you don't need to prove yourself to me, but if you could find a passage about apostasy and show me the entire context so i can see the entire passage.

because im sure you know the book better than me and can give me the entire passage so that i don't read just a small section of it.

Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them"

i dont understand how that can be taken any other way,
it says what it says.


that verse has the entire context.
it doesnt say (just kidding) after that verse

and if you interpret that verse differently, on what authority is your interpretation right and mine wrong.


See this is why you should read the whole context before just reading sentences that peak your interest...What's the name of the Surah, why was it named that, what happened before that caused Allah to reveal that, where was this Surah revealed, who are "they", and etc. You forgot to ask yourself alot of questions before you jumped to this conclusion.

I'm not saying I know everything in the Quran, but I'm not going to defend it because I'm muslim. I'm just telling you not to attack it when you have absolutely no knowledge of the whole book.

[Shunsui]

sorry double post

[Redlyne_mr2]

This is my facepalm, don't use it very often but this thread deserves it.
-Lw4gtT0t2s

[bashir26]

Originally posted by TurboD


and i would agree, most religions are fundamentally violent.
and more importantly, gods (allah) do not exist.

and bashir26 - you don't need to prove yourself to me, but if you could find a passage about apostasy and show me the entire context so i can see the entire passage.

because im sure you know the book better than me and can give me the entire passage so that i don't read just a small section of it.

Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them"

i dont understand how that can be taken any other way,
it says what it says.


that verse has the entire context.
it doesnt say (just kidding) after that verse

and if you interpret that verse differently, on what authority is your interpretation right and mine wrong.

The verse you quoted was out of the chapter ‘An-Nisa’ among other topics this chapter goes over:

- Orphans
- How to divide money between your family
- Under which circumstances you are able to have multiple wives etc
- What you do when someone/group of people attack you

So the specific verse you took out was actually talking about how you should react when someone is attacking you directly. It is not suggesting that you should kill every non-believer that’s crazy, but what is suggesting that if there are a group of people that are un-peaceful with you as in cause major problems to you and your religion that you take action. For example like the crusades…or like the battles the Muslims in the prophets time had to fight. They didn’t want to fight, but it was more forced.

When the prophet went to this one city to escape mecca because his uncles/people there were not really nice they went to this one city where they were all stoned etc. even then they did not fight. Also there were times were people were not allowed to sell them any food for nearly two years…even then they did not fight. So choosing this step is very, very rare. You only choose it when someone is not peaceful towards you and has the intentions of starting something bigger like a war.

[Shunsui]

Originally posted by bashir26


The verse you quoted was out of the chapter ‘An-Nisa’ among other topics this chapter goes over:

- Orphans
- How to divide money between your family
- Under which circumstances you are able to have multiple wives etc
- What you do when someone/group of people attack you

So the specific verse you took out was actually talking about how you should react when someone is attacking you directly. It is not suggesting that you should kill every non-believer that’s crazy, but what is suggesting that if there are a group of people that are un-peaceful with you as in cause major problems to you and your religion that you take action. For example like the crusades…or like the battles the Muslims in the prophets time had to fight. They didn’t want to fight, but it was more forced.

When the prophet went to this one city to escape mecca because his uncles/people there were not really nice they went to this one city where they were all stoned etc. even then they did not fight. Also there were times were people were not allowed to sell them any food for nearly two years…even then they did not fight. So choosing this step is very, very rare. You only choose it when someone is not peaceful towards you and has the intentions of starting something bigger like a war.

+1 See if you first researched more about that quote, instead of being ignorant and making judgements based on one line, you would've missed the significance of it.

[TurboD]

so bashir26 & Shunsui

what do you believe the punishment is for apostasy (for a Muslim to lose his/her faith)

and would you accept that major leaders in your faith support physical force against their wives, as well as punishment for apostasy?

how can major leaders of your faith have this view, but you interpret this view differently.

all im saying, is when you have room for interpretation you are laying the ground work for justifying almost anything, from murder, to voilence, to rape, to racism, to really anything you want to make up.

and the great thing about religion is you can interpret these things and the religion aids in letting you transfer the blame to the book.

also, can a female be the head of your church/mosque

if not, why

[bashir26]

Originally posted by TurboD
so bashir26 & Shunsui

what do you believe the punishment is for apostasy (for a Muslim to lose his/her faith)

and would you accept that major leaders in your faith support physical force against their wives, as well as punishment for apostasy?

how can major leaders of your faith have this view, but you interpret this view differently.

all im saying, is when you have room for interpretation you are laying the ground work for justifying almost anything, from murder, to voilence, to rape, to racism, to really anything you want to make up.

and the great thing about religion is you can interpret these things and the religion aids in letting you transfer the blame to the book.

also, can a female be the head of your church/mosque

if not, why

Punishment? Don't confuse the Quran to political agendas in some countries. There are several verses that say if someone leaves Islam its whatever....these verses say nothing about you have to kill them or death penalty or whatever.

There is no actual 'major' leader is Islam. There are several big named people, but I would not call them leaders.

Islam does not support wife beatings. Again, do not confuse cultural stuff with the actual religion

and how can you interpret anything to justify rape, etc?

No woman cannot be leaders (as in lead the prayer) because there are certain positions that you do during prayer that would make a woman feel weird IF they were actually in-front of the men while doing prayers. Its nothing to do with sexual gender preference, its more to do with guys checking out the girls

and I don't blame the book, I blame the people that attempt to follow the book.

[sexualbanana]

Can somebody please explain to me about how a thread about a soldier obviously acting outside of any military code of conduct, turned into a theological pissing match?

I'm going to give my 2 cents on not only the original topic, but all the back and forth bantering as well; If you agree, cool. If you don't, cool.

The convict in this case, is an idiot for a number of reasons. Trying to blame the system for his actions is futile and is an obvious attempt to deflect attention away from him. It doesn't matter if he was following orders as he said he was because when it comes to actions like the rape and murder of civilians, you don't necessarily have to follow said orders because it's still illegal. This is like the war crimes trials after WWII when Nazi Officers tried to use the "following orders" defense in their trials. Didn't work then, and it won't work now.

Outside of fringe paramilitary factions, there are no military organizations that condone the rape and murder of civilians. It seems to me that everyone is forgetting the fact that the soldiers in question were arrested, tried, and convicted for their crimes. In no way does it appear that any branch of the US Armed Forces condones their actions.

Although I may not agree with the reasoning for the invasion of Iraq, I support the soldiers that are over there doing their part. I can appreciate the reasons some people join the Armed Forces (of any nation) and their dedication in a dangerous situation.

[TurboD]

Originally posted by bashir26


Punishment? Don't confuse the Quran to political agendas in some countries. There are several verses that say if someone leaves Islam its whatever....these verses say nothing about you have to kill them or death penalty or whatever.

There is no actual 'major' leader is Islam. There are several big named people, but I would not call them leaders.

Islam does not support wife beatings. Again, do not confuse cultural stuff with the actual religion

and how can you interpret anything to justify rape, etc?

No woman cannot be leaders (as in lead the prayer) because there are certain positions that you do during prayer that would make a woman feel weird IF they were actually in-front of the men while doing prayers. Its nothing to do with sexual gender preference, its more to do with guys checking out the girls

and I don't blame the book, I blame the people that attempt to follow the book.

i'm not sure really how else to debate this point.
i think that you know what i'm trying to get you to admit to but you are well aware of this and are trying to take a light and gentle approach to make me think that the muslim literature means to talk about flowers and not being involved in war.

so without much knowledge about the religion i cannot really debate it on any other grounds other than what is widely know and seen in society.

i think the female church movement explanation was a cop out, i think you know the real reason.
and you say it has nothing to do with sexual gender preference, but it really is.

why not get involved in your religion, why not make it right, why not help people see it the way you do.

why not push for the first female mosque leader. why not make a statement like that so people can see you are not a sexist organization. because of the movements? give me a break, change then, adapt then for females.

LOL - lets ban women from being cops because guys will just check them out all day long
lets ban women from politics cause no one will take them seriously and just hit on them all day.

everything else in society can change to include females, why cannot religion?
why is religion the only thing that today continues to oppress women?

why does the faith, the one thing that is meant to bring peace and virtue, why is faith the only thing that cannot see through the old oppressive mentality?

by not trying to make your church right you are helping it do wrong

[bashir26]

Originally posted by TurboD
so without much knowledge about the religion i cannot really debate


Lets end it at that. You really don't know what you are talking about.

[ragu]

Originally posted by bashir26


Lets end it at that. You really don't know what you are talking about.

:rofl: I read that post and *sigh*

[TurboD]

Original Post Removed. (Please read the Forum Rules and Terms of Use (http://forums.beyond.ca/articles.php?action=data&item=1) before posting again, or risk getting banned).

[Shunsui]

Originally posted by TurboD
in the spirit of peace, why don't you draw a picture portraying the prophet Muhammad and post it on this forum.

just to show everyone that you aren't terrified of the violent leaders of your own cult


Do you understand what you just said? Like really, think about it...

Your comparing "peace" to going against the Quran:facepalm:

honestly GTFO!:closed:

[texasnick]

Originally posted by TurboD


you tell me what the penalty for Apostasy is in your religion and then i will tell you why I think you cannot condone when other members of your faith commit violent acts.

fact: you worship a book that has violent passages

fact: passages can be interpreted differently to different people

fact: you cannot tell someone how they should interpret their holy book

fact: whether you can admit it or not you are part of a violent organization



LOL, if i bomb your country its OK but if you fight back that makes you a terrorist.

LOL

No offense man but Jesus Christ that's ignorant. Have you read the Quraan? Have you read the Christian Bible? Have you read the Torah?

If not then please stop saying "Fact:" like you actually know what you are talking about.

And homelessguy......by your logic I suppose that everyone who believes that this asshole is getting what he deserves is a supporter of terrorist organizations? Just because Al Qaeda or the Taliban rapes and murders innocent people we should say that it's okay for our soldiers and citizens to do the same thing? Anyone who says otherwise supports terrorism? Good God listen to yourself. I hope for my own country's sake that you aren't American.:thumbsdow

[TurboD]

lol, i didn't know it was against beyond's rules to post pictures of my beloved prophet muhammed?

with a bomb coming out of his hat?

as a muslim i think i have the right to post pictures of my prophet?


Shunsui^^^ and you didn't read the quran well enough, the thing about pictures of the prophet you took out of context, do not confuse cultural stuff with the actual religion

[BrknFngrs]

So to summarize:

US soldier committed terrible crimes and was punished heavily by his own government and laws.

I don't really see how this can be seen as anything other than "good work" by the American government. It shows they hold their own soldiers accountable. It's not like the government is supporting his behavior or the American people are treating him as a hero.

Am I missing something here?

[TurboD]

Originally posted by texasnick


No offense man but Jesus Christ that's ignorant. Have you read the Quraan? Have you read the Christian Bible? Have you read the Torah?

If not then please stop saying "Fact:" like you actually know what you are talking about.


texas nick - i think you are the only person in the world that doesn't have a clue what violence is written in the quran.

maybe you think the quote i post is a good bedtime quote for kids?

how about i back up my fact statements with quotes
you are the ignorant one.
now that ive posted a quote i'd like to see you claim the book does not have violent passages

and id like you to tell muslims that they are not allowed to interpret the quran differently than others.

8:12

I WILL CAST TERROR INTO THE HEARTS OF THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE. THEREFORE STRIKE OFF THEIR HEADS http://www.scdf.gov.sg/images/community_volunteer/learncd/firstaid/choking%20obstructed%20airway%20of%20a%20concious%20adult/choking_signs.jpg AND STRIKE OFF EVERY FINGERTIP OF THEM.http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3578/3417953826_4c6314b304.jpg THIS IS BECAUSE THEY ACTED ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER; AND WHOEVER ACTS ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER - THEN SURELY ALLAH IS SEVERE IN REQUITING (EVIL). THIS - TASTE IT, AND (KNOW) THAT FOR THE UNBELIEVERS IS THE PUNISHMENT OF FIRE.http://spiritlessons.com/documents/Unitys_Vision/Pictures/hell2.jpg


and ^^^ BrknFngrs
i would agree with you on that, im actually surprised the govt would do anything in those situations.

[bashir26]

Turbo...get off my dick

peace

[TurboD]

lol

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by TurboD


how about i back up my fact statements with quotes
you are the ignorant one.
now that ive posted a quote i'd like to see you claim the book does not have violent passages



No different than the Bible

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, (Deuteronomy 13:6)
gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other) (Deuteronomy 13:7),
do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. (Deuteronomy 13:8)
You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. (Deuteronomy 13:9)
Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. (Deuteronomy 13:10)
Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again. (Deuteronomy 13:11)

[TurboD]

why do you think im standing up for the bible.

the bible is just as bad if not worse.

but i have to attack one religion at a time.
only so much time in one day.

and if you showed those quotes to a christian they would make up some evasive bs like "thats the OT, we don't follow that"

muslims do something similar with their book

lol.

thats why i have respect for Jainism
although i'm not a follower of said religion, i respect that they follow a non-violent religion and followers cannot use the teachings for violent acts.

"Central to Jainism is the practice of non-violence or ahimsa. The dedicated Jain is constrained to reverence life and is forbidden to take life even at the lowest level. The obvious consequence of this belief is strict vegetarianism. Farming is frowned upon since the process would inevitably involve killing of lower forms of life."

janes literally would not hurt a fly

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by TurboD
that's a touchy subject, i don't really know how to answer it without disrespecting someone.

they aren't responsible for the actions of other in their group, but they cannot condone the actions.
so in a way they are enablers to violence.

Clarify your stance for me, then. First you were saying that Muslims by association are all terrorists.

Now you're saying that Christians are no better because of the violent passages in the Bible.

What exactly is the point you're trying to make here?

[TurboD]

Originally posted by sexualbanana


Clarify your stance for me, then. First you were saying that Muslims by association are all terrorists.

Now you're saying that Christians are no better because of the violent passages in the Bible.

What exactly is the point you're trying to make here?

religion = fail

[sexualbanana]

What does this have to do with the conviction of a soldier (discharged) for the rape and murder of a civilian family?

[TurboD]

i didnt bring it up, some guy asked me if i thought all muslims are terrorists.

and all i said was they are enablers of violence.

but i have the same opinion about Christians but that was just never brought up.

[sexualbanana]

Just because something is an enabler, as you put it, doesn't necessarily mean it's bad. Like you said, every religion has its crazy fundamentalists and fringe believers. Hell, every subject on this planet has crazy fundamentalists and fringe believers; be they scientists or zealots, doctors and naturalists, even Yankees and Red Sox fans.

I'm neither Muslim, nor Christian, but I find your perspective to be ignorant and short-sighted. Because a religion does or has advocated violence doesn't mean all its practitioners are therefore violent by association. If that were the case, women of all creeds would be getting raped and stoned on every block.

If I'm understanding your view correctly;
All Muslims are violent and misogynists.
All Christians are violent as well.
All Mormons are polygamists.
All Buddhists are poor vegetarians.
All Hindus are elitists.
All Jainists are, for lack of a better word, pussies.

[TurboD]

Originally posted by sexualbanana
If I'm understanding your view correctly;
All Muslims are violent and misogynists.
All Christians are violent as well.
All Mormons are polygamists.
All Buddhists are poor vegetarians.
All Hindus are elitists.
All Jainists are, for lack of a better word, pussies.

i said they are enablers, not all terrorists.

i would agree that jainists are pussies, but they have a consistent religious ideals, and you will never debate that janism is a violent religion.

i never ever said ALL, i said they enable.

and any religion that has violent passages in the key books of worship whether they like it or not are enablers of violence.

if you worship a book that talks about violence, you cannot tell someone not to take the book literally.

why? because if you believe it was authored by a god obviously following it to the word is a logical position to take.

if a god wrote me a book and i actually believed it to be written by a god, i would follow it to the word and what authority does anyone have to tell me otherwise?

if a god writes me a book that says "gays are living sin"
you better believe i will hate gays
and the guy that claims to have another context i will right away suspect to be gay.

religion works ok with well educated people, but the thing about religion is that stupid people will do stupid things, and religion is a great way to do something stupid and have a good reason to do it.
religion makes it easy for stupid people to justify doing crazy things.

the muslims in this thread argue by taking the passage and reversing the meaning and saying the context shows the exact opposite of what it actually says in the book.

"kill and cut off their heads"

"welll, the context if you research your entire life, actually what the passage is saying is that you should never hurt anyone ... ever"

[FlySi]

Originally posted by TurboD


blah blah blah ....


Tom Cruise? is that you?

[Jim Rome99]

Originally posted by homelessman


Really? That is the best you can come up with? Well, you are from Edmonton.

Based on your profile, grammar, and what you currently drive, I am going to assume that you are some 17 year old moron still living at home. Go read a book.

Wow. Just wow. You've been watching a bit too much Bill O'Reilly. Put down the Glenn Beck book and read a newspaper.

[Toma]

Originally posted by Shunsui



See this is why you should read the whole context before just reading sentences that peak your interest...What's the name of the Surah, why was it named that, what happened before that caused Allah to reveal that, where was this Surah revealed, who are "they", and etc. You forgot to ask yourself alot of questions before you jumped to this conclusion.

I'm not saying I know everything in the Quran, but I'm not going to defend it because I'm muslim. I'm just telling you not to attack it when you have absolutely no knowledge of the whole book.

Ahhhh..... this is what google and wikipedia have caused....

Anyone can now unfortunately hit a few keys, and then consider themselves an authority or expert on matters far too vast for even the brightest academics.

A little Learning is a dangerous Thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian Spring

[texasnick]

Originally posted by TurboD


texas nick - i think you are the only person in the world that doesn't have a clue what violence is written in the quran.

maybe you think the quote i post is a good bedtime quote for kids?

how about i back up my fact statements with quotes
you are the ignorant one.
now that ive posted a quote i'd like to see you claim the book does not have violent passages

and id like you to tell muslims that they are not allowed to interpret the quran differently than others.


Dude....have you ever read the Bible? It says the same shit. I HAVE read the Quraan (for my own personal interest) and I found it to be pretty damn close to the Bible I have also read.

[freshprince1]

Shame on soldiers who committ such attrocities. Kudos for the the US prosecuting those guys. Too bad so many people paint the entire US military in the same light as these scumbags.

[alloroc]

I have a work client in the USA who was tortured in an Iraqi prison back in the first Gulf war. He had broken arms and fingers, had his fingernails pulled out and had two teeth crushed with pliers. Meanwhile the USA was giving food water and shelter to enemy forces who surrendered.

Where are all the reports of the 'other side' prosecuting their own and reports of thier justice system incararating folks for doing similar crimes to Allied forces?

Oh wait ... they don't.

So before anyone says "bad Americans" Good on the Americans for doing this as I know they aren't doing it on the other side.

[SOAB]

anyone that compares the US Forces to the Al-Qaida is a moron.

US army are supposed to be the good guys. This kind of torture and rape is NOT supposed to be happening and i'm glad they prosecuted the people involved.

what Al-Qaida does and doesn't do should have no bearing on how the US Forces should handle themselves.

[homelessman]

Originally posted by alloroc
I have a work client in the USA who was tortured in an Iraqi prison back in the first Gulf war. He had broken arms and fingers, had his fingernails pulled out and had two teeth crushed with pliers. Meanwhile the USA was giving food water and shelter to enemy forces who surrendered.

Where are all the reports of the 'other side' prosecuting their own and reports of thier justice system incararating folks for doing similar crimes to Allied forces?

Oh wait ... they don't.

So before anyone says "bad Americans" Good on the Americans for doing this as I know they aren't doing it on the other side.

This is a good post.

[homelessman]

Originally posted by SOAB
anyone that compares the US Forces to the Al-Qaida is a moron.

US army are supposed to be the good guys. This kind of torture and rape is NOT supposed to be happening and i'm glad they prosecuted the people involved.

what Al-Qaida does and doesn't do should have no bearing on how the US Forces should handle themselves.

Which is why we are over there killing as many of them as possible. :drool: :drool::love: :love:

[ZorroAMG]

Ahhhh homelessman, Beyond's closet racist on pink rollerblades.

[CUG]

Originally posted by ZorroAMG
This thread is so full of fucking ignorant assholes with absolutely NO concept of the world outside their shit-laden red-neck bubbles. Try listening to things other than the american news, try leaving the country for places other than the US or Mexico and start understanding that your REFUCKINGTARDED kind aren't the only ones in the world.

Homelesscunt, CUG, banned3x et al...get fucked ok?

Oh and please come at me with some comment about me loving al queda and the taliban...fucking joke children. Your hatred for jews is why you'll go nowhere else in your acting career. I can't imagine how you must feel knowing you'll eventually have to kneel down to a jew some day if you ever want to make more than a couple of g's for an extra spot in a beer commercial.

Aside from that, it's funny how people like you have made it a complete sin to even MENTION that middle eastern cultures might breed righteous indignation when it comes to getting violent... that they might be just as fucking batshit crazy if not WORSE than the religious zealots we have here.

No, we better not hurt anyone's fucking feelings here, lest you think I'm oppressing your sorry, uninformed, and pathetic ass. It's on everyone's minds, some people can't articulate it in a way that doesn't sound like a trailer trash redneck, but I don't think it matters.

A complete fucking hack like you hears islam and terrorism in the same sentence, and your wig splits down the middle and your brain pops out... and somehow you believe you come from an intellectual and moral high-ground by "taking a stand against racisthomophobezionistfacists" like me, right?

I said: I don't respect countries that don't have democratic process, and I don't respect the people who support that kind of governance from the safety of a democratic country like Canada... or something to that effect. You're telling me I'm poorly traveled, that I'm ignorant. I've been to the middle east, and there's a number of reasons I'm glad I'm a) not from there and b) don't live there. I still enjoyed their culture and met some amazing people. What the fuck else do you want?

Take a hike, clown.

[texasnick]

I think the big issue here is that a lot of people in this thread have given off the impression that b/c Islamic extremists do this kind of stuff all the time, it's not that big of a deal that the American soldier did it. Since no one "reports" incidences where terrorists, be they Al Qaeda or Taliban or whatever, have commited these crimes there is all of the sudden something wrong with punishing one of our own for doing it.

If all of you guys are so convinced that democracy is the true end all be all form of government, worldwide, then you should be proud of the fact that a democratic country is going through with punishing injustice, unlike the non-democratic countries where this occured would have done.

Regardless of who else does this kind of stuff in the world, raping a girl, then killing her and her entire family is WRONG, and by God if you aren't punished for it, then that's fucked up.

It has absolutely ZERO to do with what religion you happen to be, or where in the world you are from.

Everyone who is bitching and whinging about how no one ever reports the bad stuff the other guys do :cry: can, at this time, pull their heads out of their asses and be glad that morally superior democracy won this time.

[ZorroAMG]

Originally posted by CUG
Your hatred for jews is why you'll go nowhere else in your acting career.

I hate Jews? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

That was funny!!

[5hift]

Originally posted by alloroc
I have a work client in the USA who was tortured in an Iraqi prison back in the first Gulf war. He had broken arms and fingers, had his fingernails pulled out and had two teeth crushed with pliers. Meanwhile the USA was giving food water and shelter to enemy forces who surrendered.

Where are all the reports of the 'other side' prosecuting their own and reports of thier justice system incararating folks for doing similar crimes to Allied forces?

Oh wait ... they don't.

So before anyone says "bad Americans" Good on the Americans for doing this as I know they aren't doing it on the other side.

Funny I didn't hear about any prosecutions from what happened at Gitmo, I just heard a bunch of files were destroyed before they could be exposed to the public.


Few of the things that occurated at Guantanamo Bay, where no punishment came out of it.

Water boarding, tortured with broken glass, barbed wire, burning cigarettes, and sexual assaults, constant beatings, sleep deprivation, prolonged constraint in uncomfortable positions, prolonged hooding, sexual and cultural humiliation, forced injections, and other physical and psychological mistreatment