Bandwidth and Hardware :)

[Hollywood]

Originally posted by bart
ok, this is going overboard now i think.



Originally posted by bart
this is only a publicity stunt.

Hey man, some of us consider this more of a car enthusiast community. People deserve recoconition, as they helped someone on this forum recover something as important as their car. On average a car is the 2nd most expensive item one person owns, chances are they work hard for their money, and someone here helped that person recover that.

If because of that beyond gets recognized that good for beyond, Rage pays for the beyond server (which is big $$$ computing power), bandwith and other misc items so we have a smooth operating, fast forum. If beyond gets some free publicity then hey....rage and beyond deserve it at the least. And if you want to be a dick about it................

THINK Every time you hit your beyond.ca favorite, submit a post, get a laugh from some reading or a funny video, seen some boobies in ask Leo, buy a used PS2 in the market place, try to sell your car.......That Rage has payed for that out of his own personal pocket and hard work!

[bart]

buddy, well if you worked hard for your car, would you leave the keys in it?

and, its cheaper to run a server than you think. well depending on who your host is, and if you know the business. keeping this server running alone, not counting any other costs, is no more than $50 per month, that is my guesstimate.

[Hollywood]

Originally posted by bart
buddy, well if you worked hard for your car, would you leave the keys in it?

and, its cheaper to run a server than you think. well depending on who your host is, and if you know the business. keeping this server running alone, not counting any other costs, is no more than $50 per month, that is my guesstimate.

I hate to break it to you but Beyond rides on a fiber based 10meg circuit which is closer to 3000K a month....Not cadvision.

Here is the server beyond is on. Dual hyper threading Xeons 5 GHZ combined, 2 gigs of memory, not your moms 900mhz Compaq presario, well over 3000K worth of power here.

When you start to know what your really talking about let me know.

[rage2]

hehe the circuit is shared, so I don't pay $3k a month (the bill hovers around $3-3.5k a month). I pay about $120/month.

The hardware cost sounds about right tho hehe.

[bart]

HOLLYWOOD:

when it comes to servers and hosting, i know more than you. the "3000k" in your post, is that $3,000, $3,000,000, or 3000 as a voltage rating? lol. your post is confusing. btw, there is not such thing as cadvision anymore.

and having two processors which run at 2.5ghz each DOES NOT give you 5ghz genius.

also, for $99US you can get a dedicated server, 700GB's of bandwidth, and a P4 CPU. more than enough for what beyond.ca needs. i am 99% sure they do not go over 100GB's of xfer per month.

but enough about that, you want to argue with me on this, fine, start another thread, for now, keep this one on topic, like i had done in the past at least.

[rage2]

There's a lot of neat hosting packages out there, but unfortunately, they cap performance quite heavily. beyond servers is a playground for me, I get to mess around with CGI optimization for work purposes (which is why I get to host it at work for cheap). All this hardware is there for a reason, so when you view a thread, it comes up instantly, and not 5 seconds later.

If I moved beyond to a $90/month 100GB usage, the site would be down for 2 weeks a month :rofl:. Either that or I'd get charged $1000 a month for overuse.

Anyways, lemme do a short writeup on bandwidth usage, servers, configurations, and other neat info. It's pretty interesting. Off to compile some stats... :)

[Hollywood]

Originally posted by bart
HOLLYWOOD:

when it comes to servers and hosting, i know more than you. the "3000k" in your post, is that $3,000, $3,000,000, or 3000 as a voltage rating? lol. your post is confusing. btw, there is not such thing as cadvision anymore.

$3000 dollars of computing power, 3K got me there. I know there is no Cadvision, it was an example of a dialup company.


Originally posted by bart
HOLLYWOOD:

and having two processors which run at 2.5ghz each DOES NOT give you 5ghz genius.

I realize that, but it does give you a combined total of 5ghz of computing power.


Originally posted by bart
HOLLYWOOD:

Also, for $99US you can get a dedicated server, 700GB's of bandwidth, and a P4 CPU. more than enough for what beyond.ca needs. i am 99% sure they do not go over 100GB's of xfer per month.

I'm glad you the new IT guy for beyond and have decided what beyond needs for server specs and bandwith.

Rage here answers you Super IT genious sugestions.


Originally posted by rage2
There's a lot of neat hosting packages out there, but unfortunately, they cap performance quite heavily. beyond servers is a playground for me, I get to mess around with CGI optimization for work purposes (which is why I get to host it at work for cheap). All this hardware is there for a reason, so when you view a thread, it comes up instantly, and not 5 seconds later.

If I moved beyond to a $90/month 100GB usage, the site would be down for 2 weeks a month :rofl:. Either that or I'd get charged $1000 a month for overuse.


Originally posted by bart
but enough about that, you want to argue with me on this, fine, start another thread, for now, keep this one on topic, like i had done in the past at least.

I can argue if I wish. Just show some respect.

[bart]

personally i think ev1 servers are the best bang for your buck.

http://www.ev1servers.net/english/index.asp

celeron proc's w/ 700gb xfer for $89. (only good for hosting files, moderate sized msg board)

dual xeon w/ 700gb xfer for $199. and go up to 1200gb. (now we're talking)

-> now, my point is, i'm trying to explain to hollywood that there is no way it costs $3,000 per month to run beyond. it can be done with one of the above servers. yes the celery might not be enough, but bw is, more than enough for sure. if not overkill.

so who wants to place bets before rage posts the stats? lol

[rage2]

First off, the Web Server.

Abit motherboard (Intel chipset)
P4 2.53Ghz CPU
512MB DDR RAM
2 x 120GB Maxtor 7200rpm in RAID-1 mirror configuration
Windows 2000 Server SP4
IIS5 running PHP ISAPI extensions

For anti-hotlinking and other IIS tricks, redec wrote "LeechBlocker" ISAPI to fulfill our needs (that's right, redec's an administrator for a reason!)

In terms of security, on the internet side (what you guys can access) it's restricted to port 80. That's all you guys have access to.

For us fortunate enough (admins), we get to access via secure VPN behind the firewall. Even the vbulletin administration panel is restricted on the internet side to prevent unauthorized access.

[rage2]

Next, CPU usage on the web server. Memory (obviously) is an overkill here, but we do run the database on the same server when we have to do maintainance, so we need that memory.

When the DB runs on here, CPU is pretty much maxxed to 100%. Right now (10 seconds ago) we're averaging around 40% cpu usage. That's just IIS and PHP.

When you notice things are slow, that means we're doing maintainance behind your back... and the DB is running on this server :).

[Hollywood]

Originally posted by bart
personally i think.

No thinky....just respect.

[rage2]

As for bandwidth... just the forums alone (not including our image/video server), we use 60-70GB a month.

Oct, we used 72.06GB (ignore the average, it's incorrectly adding November numbers).

Remember, this is just the forums, and text only. Also, all our text is compressed (if you use a network sniffer, you'll see all http traffic is gzip compressed).

[bart]

hollywood:

what do you mean show respect? i was showing it until you *thought* you knew what you were talking about.

rage:

am i correct if i were to say that attachments are part of the forum bandwidth? not just the text?

[rage2]

Our video/images server serve up approx 5x the bandwidth of the forums server. This is because each video averages around 10MB in size :eek:. In total, the 2 sites use about 340GB of bandwidth a month!

The hardware for the video server is quite old. An old box I had laying around... remember the Abit BP6 motherboard? :)

Abit BP6 Motherboard
Dual Celeron 450Mhz
384MB SDR RAM
4 x 80GB Maxtor 7200rpm in RAID-1 mirror configuration
160GB Total Disk Space
IIS5 with redec's LeechBlocker ISAPI filter

[bart]

and speaking of publicity, i like beyond, and have nothing against it getting some. i'm somewhat of a computer programmer, so i made a site where message boards will be able to get spidered by search engines. see, vbulletin uses dynamic links, so it has a bunch of garbage people dont care about in the url, neither do search engines. i made a spider which takes that information, caches a site as flat content, allowing it to be indexed.

www.boardflyer.com i recently started, just a little project, we'll see where it goes, beyond and a few other boards are on the list.

but hollywood, i'm sure you were familiar with this kind of stuff.

[rage2]

Originally posted by bart
message boards will be able to get spidered by search engines. see, vbulletin uses dynamic links, so it has a bunch of garbage people dont care about in the url, neither do search engines.
http://forums.beyond.ca/archive

hehe, it was a PHP/Apache only script, which I "adapted" to run under IIS :).

[rage2]

The beyond.ca mail server runs off this image/video server as well, so CPU usage is a bit high (gotta serve all that spam!)

Oh, forgot about email bandwidth too... each post reply sends an email out to ppl that use the email notification feature... 400GB a month total? Not unrealistic! :rofl:

This server could really use a memory upgrade...

[bart]

lol, i know the /archive thing is standard on vb3, and a hack is available for vb2. but i searched google and nothing came up from beyond last time i checked, therefore added it to boardflyer. now i have to wait until googlebot reaches my site, and we'll see what happens.

you have it easier, because you read directly from the db, i had to take a few hours and write a parser to manually parse the html, and get rid of junk. :)

[rage2]

And behind all those servers runs our brand spankin' new database server.

Intel Server Motherboard
Dual Xeon 2.4Ghz w/Hyper Threading (4 virtual cpus)
2GB of DDR RAM
4 x 120GB Maxtor 7200rpm in RAID-1 mirror configuration
240GB Total Disk Space

This server is connected to the web servers via our new 1000mbit CAT5 backbone. This allows us to move databases really quickly at 1gbit!

[rage2]

mmmm... disk space! All RAID protected, with alarms that page me. All backups are done 4x a day, nightly off the server, and weekly offsite (part of company backups).

Currently, the beyond mysql database sits at around 2gb... so we have a lot of room to grow! :rofl:

[bart]

pffff, windows2000. windows2003 is where its at. lol j/k.

[bart]

lol i didnt think the mysql db would be 2gb big!!

how about breaking it down some, screenshot phpmyadmin if you use it, and tell us the exact size of each table in the db and its rows. :)

[rage2]

One might think that the server is overkill, but it really is not. Average CPU usage a few mins ago is around 15% mark. Memory might be overkill, but almost the entire database is cached in memory, which is one reason why database performance is so fast. Click a link, loads up instantly!

[rage2]

Originally posted by bart
lol, i know the /archive thing is standard on vb3, and a hack is available for vb2. but i searched google and nothing came up from beyond last time i checked, therefore added it to boardflyer.

hehe thanks for adding it. I didn't submit to google until recently... they're actually spidering for the first time right now if you look who's online. They've been at it for nearly 24 hrs now.

Originally posted by bart
lol i didnt think the mysql db would be 2gb big!!
It's mostly in the attachment table, around 1.4gb!

As for Windows 2003, haven't had a need to upgrade yet... performance isn't that much better (PHP/CGI) with the testing I've done.

[bart]

ya, figures, the bw killer of all message boards.

[rage2]

welp, that's it for now, I'll take some pics of the hardware itself tomorrow and post it online :).

[Hollywood]

Originally posted by bart
hollywood:

what do you mean show respect? i was showing it until you *thought* you knew what you were talking about.

Where was I wrong?


Originally posted by Hollywood
Beyond rides on a fiber based 10meg circuit which is closer to 3000K a month.


Originally posted by rage2
hehe the circuit is shared, so I don't pay $3k a month (the bill hovers around $3-3.5k a month). I pay about $120/month.

My point is that a 10 meg circuit does cost around 3k+, and that's what beyond uses. Sure Rage only pays for a small portion but

A. He is getting a deal.
B. He does have full access to the 10 meg ie: cas the ability to over use bandwith at no extra cost.
C. He has a direct fiber feed, where the physical layer is accessable, and the hardware on site and physically managable at any time of the day.
D. Never has to deal with server hosts bullshit.
E. Local performance since most of the members are in alberta.


Originally posted by Hollywood
Here is the server beyond is on. Dual hyper threading Xeons 5 GHZ combined, 2 gigs of memory, not your moms 900mhz Compaq presario, well over 3000K worth of power here.



Originally posted by rage2
The hardware cost sounds about right tho hehe.

Hmm I'm right again.

[Hollywood]

So rage, lets say this. If you had to pay for beyond from a web hosting service, server and bandwidth possible over use charges, how much would have to pay including labour on maintenence costs, software upgrades, everything per month.

[bart]

ok, you've made it sound like it costs beyond $3000 per month run. thats like me saying "vw spent 100 million developing my golf", where the design is shared by all the golfs that exist. see what i mean?

and when you said 5ghz combined, it still sounds as though you mean 5ghz combined, lol. they still run at 2.5ghz total. just that they can multi-thread as so to speak, really process information faster, but clock speed is still 2.5ghz.

in any case, i'm glad you brought this up, as now we know beyond inside out, ahaha. :)

[rage2]

If I co-host my servers at say Q9, probably around $1200/month. If I host it offsite on a host that allows me to do my own shit (full PCAnywhere access), probably around $600/month. But you're right, I still have to deal with offsite host bullshit, and I wont get a fill 10mbit pipe for peak hours, where as I have 24/7 secured access to the facilities right now.

If I had to pay those kinda rates, I'd be moderating everything heavily, image attachments, etc. and try to knock it down to about $200/month. Also, all sponsor money would go towards server costs, and not towards shows, bbq's, track days, etc.

With the freedom I have now, I'm hosting 403honda, ben's and a few other moderator's images, and some other misc sites for friends.

[rage2]

Originally posted by bart
and when you said 5ghz combined, it still sounds as though you mean 5ghz combined, lol. they still run at 2.5ghz total. just that they can multi-thread as so to speak, really process information faster, but clock speed is still 2.5ghz.
The Xeon is hyper threaded... so it's like having 4 CPUs... 2 at 2.4ghz, and 2 at around 1Ghz.

I was amazed when I first started playing with hyperthreading CPUs, how much gains they had for multi-threaded apps like SQL server and VMWare.

[bart]

lol, so $1200 is somewhat between $50 and $3000. more closer to me, yippeee.

if you only told me you had 1.4gigs of attachments, my guesstimate would have been a little higher, $200 ish. and dont forget the keyword "at". assuming beyond was to use ev1.net.

[bart]

Originally posted by rage2

The Xeon is hyper threaded... so it's like having 4 CPUs... 2 at 2.4ghz, and 2 at around 1Ghz.

I was amazed when I first started playing with hyperthreading CPUs, how much gains they had for multi-threaded apps like SQL server and VMWare.

any gains in quake 3? lol

[rage2]

hehe believe me I tried TONS of these "unlimited", "500gb monthly" packages. I helped a friend host some seriously high bandwidth sites. With each one of these hosts that promise mega bandwidth usage, the first week is usually good. Once they figure out that they're getting shafted cuz I'm pulling 40GB a day, they cap bitrate to the point where the site is unusable, so we're forced to move.

There's no such thing as a free lunch, and if you've purchased high capacity fiber/ATM lines, 700GB for $90 is impossible hehe.

[rage2]

hehe checked out those ev1 packages. Man, if I was stuck on a 2.0Ghz P4, you guys would be pissed! :)

Click link, 10 seconds later, thread shows up! lol

[Hollywood]

Originally posted by rage2
If I had to pay those kinda rates, I'd be moderating everything heavily, image attachments, etc. and try to knock it down to about $200/month. Also, all sponsor money would go towards server costs, and not towards shows, bbq's, track days, etc.

With the freedom I have now, I'm hosting 403honda, ben's and a few other moderator's images, and some other misc sites for friends.

This is my point all along. Rage and others spend their personal time no charge, give us all a full access forum, even the money that they get from adds goes back to the beyond community.

So Bart when you commented on the publicity stunt, you can now see why I am angry, as felt you disrespected Beyond, Rage and others who help run it.

[bart]

ya i know there is no such thing where it says unlimited bandwidth. its just a way to bring in customers. nowadays, they say unmetered, this just means they dont watch your usage until they want to, lol. play people for fools.

as for ev1.net, 700gb for $89 is true. i have never heard a complaint about that company, ever. most hosting companies as you know gamble on people never using their account to the max, and oversell, mostly gambling right. this is their case, also though, i think they're somewhere in texas, and have so much bw to burn its not even funny.

[bart]

hollywood: no, sorry if you thought that was the case, i was more aiming my "disrespect" as you call it to the guy who owns the car, he left his keys inside of it.

rage: well, ya, a little slow for the board. but not for hosting normal images/videos. bw is all you need for that, less cpu power i think.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Hollywood
This is my point all along. Rage and others spend their personal time no charge, give us all a full access forum, even the money that they get from adds goes back to the beyond community.
haha I do it for the challenge. People say that a busy vbulletin/php/mysql forum doesn't work well on Windows. Just trying to prove 'em wrong! :rofl:

If I ran this whole setup under linux, I'd probably get about 40% improvements in performance, since PHP/mySQL was designed with linux in mind. But what fun would that be? :)

[Superesc]

Originally posted by rage2
hehe checked out those ev1 packages. Man, if I was stuck on a 2.0Ghz P4, you guys would be pissed! :)

Click link, 10 seconds later, thread shows up! lol

yea I have been to another forum that felt like eternity before a ANY page/threads load....

[speedracer]

Originally posted by rage2

haha I do it for the challenge. People say that a busy vbulletin/php/mysql forum doesn't work well on Windows. Just trying to prove 'em wrong! :rofl:


lol I wonder how long MySQL will last.

Linux threading needs work.... Solaris 9 :angel:

[kenny]

Save me the trouble of deleting posts. This thread is for the discussion of the server / bandwidth of the beyond.ca servers that allow this website to function. If you want to discuss other stuff, please post in another thread.

[4wheeldrift]

Out of curiosity rage, what are the uptime figures on the beyond servers like?

[E36M3]

Google seems to run MySQL on Linux just fine. Have you ever actually seen MySQL on Linux on a high volume server? It is amazingly fast and stable.


Originally posted by speedracer


lol I wonder how long MySQL will last.

Linux threading needs work.... Solaris 9 :angel:

[kenny]

Originally posted by E36M3
Google seems to run MySQL on Linux just fine. Have you ever actually seen MySQL on Linux on a high volume server? It is amazingly fast and stable.



I think he meant how long will MySQL will last under the Windows environment.

Then on his next "sentence" he says that linux threading needs work, and finally he suggests we run it under Solaris 9 for optimal results. :)

Solaris > Linux > Windows

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[rage2]

Originally posted by 4wheeldrift
Out of curiosity rage, what are the uptime figures on the beyond servers like?
Stuff that's behind the firewall that doesn't require patching stays up forever...

Beyond Database Server has been up for 44 days, 14 hours, 30 minutes, 17 seconds.

Work Database Server has been up for 228 days, 21 hours, 7 minutes, 1 second.

Pretty much up since the server was built :).

[rage2]

Originally posted by E36M3
Google seems to run MySQL on Linux just fine. Have you ever actually seen MySQL on Linux on a high volume server? It is amazingly fast and stable.
Actually, only internal applications use MySQL at google. Their core web index database runs on Oracle, which sits on top of a customized version of Red hat Linux.

They use run of the mill cheap ass hardware (about 20,000 $600 servers). The database is about 25TB in size. Everything is tied together using their own custom scripts and apps. Fault Tolerance is awesome, each server is replicated 2-3x. If one goes down, failover is automated, so they have lots of time to replace the faulty server.

I read about it in an Oracle white paper, back when google announced that they bought 20,000 Maxtor hard drives :eek:

[turboMiata]

Originally posted by rage2

I read about it in an Oracle white paper, back when google announced that they bought 20,000 Maxtor hard drives :eek:

Here's the article.

http://www.computer.org/micro/mi2003/m2022.pdf

[E36M3]

I don't think that is the article he was talking about.. it doesn't mention Oracle (or any other specific RDMS) in it at all.

If anyone does have an article that is more specific, I'd be interested in reading it -- I was sure that I had read that Google only uses open-source software for its system, but I'd be interested in finding out wether or not that is really the case.


Originally posted by turboMiata


Here's the article.

http://www.computer.org/micro/mi2003/m2022.pdf

[turboMiata]

Originally posted by E36M3
Google seems to run MySQL on Linux just fine. Have you ever actually seen MySQL on Linux on a high volume server? It is amazingly fast and stable.



Do you have any information on this? MySQL has a maximum table size of 4GB. I can't see that being enough.

[rage2 Pocket PC]

4GB? We're at 2gb already!

[E36M3]

No, it isn't. The maximum size of a MySQL table is limited only by the file system, and is estimated to be about 8 million terrabytes (but could vary based on OS). The 4GB limit was removed after version 3.22

http://www.mysql.com/doc/en/Table_size.html

I have several databases that have tables that are larger than 4GB running under MySQL.


Originally posted by turboMiata


Do you have any information on this? MySQL has a maximum table size of 4GB. I can't see that being enough.

[E36M3]

In a single table?


Originally posted by rage2 Pocket PC
4GB? We're at 2gb already!

[rage2]

Originally posted by E36M3
In a single table?
Yea, fucking attachments.

[E36M3]

Well luckily the size of the attachments probably won't bog down query performance too much.

It would be one busy forum with 2GB of text in a single table.


Originally posted by rage2

Yea, fucking attachments.

[rage2]

More crazy stats :nut:

Here's the Sessions/Visits chart. Nearly 90,000 visits in the month of October, and growing! As you can see, it really picked up after August (thanks to Import Showoff). Most car forums slow down during the winter, we keep growing :).

[rage2]

Here's the number of page views for the month of October. 4.7 Million pages served! Which means an average user logs in and views 52 pages! Talk about an addiction! :rofl:

[rage2]

And finally, repeat users. 99.92% of our sessions are from repeat users (regardless if they're logged in or guests, IP tracked).

Shows how addictive it can get :).

[4wheeldrift]

Thank you, Rage, for producing a bulletin board that is a habit far more addictive than crack cocaine, albeit a lot cheaper ;)

[rage2]

Originally posted by 4wheeldrift
Thank you, Rage, for producing a bulletin board that is a habit far more addictive than crack cocaine, albeit a lot cheaper ;)
Don't thank me, thank these people (http://forums.beyond.ca/showgroups.php?s=), they're the ones that run the show :).

[Khyron]

One of my game servers got busy, and was burning over 100G/month on my corp dsl line. The bill would have been over 1000 dollars. (It's about 10 bucks a gig with telus, nucleus, etc).

If he's burning 300+ gigs a month, that's huge $$.

Thanks!

Khyron

[Johnny C]

:eek: What an interesting read that was.

Yes I know this was an old thread

[Ben]

Sure would be interesting to see the stats 11 months later. Crazy stuff.

[Team_Mclaren]

lol, so rage any new stats?

[rage2]

I haven't kept track.... I need more hard drive space for the log files. The logs alone are 1.5GB/day! :eek:.

It kept running out of space every few weeks, so logging has been disabled.

[Zephyr]

wow interesting read. if only cali had a beyond twin (which it doesnt) too bad...*sighs* thx for giving birth to a new human addiction rage!!:thumbsup:

[zer0]

and thats not enough hardware power.. install freebsd :P

[ThE tV 8 mE]

first off...I'd say switch to a linux/apache server...WAY better! second...maybe take a look at http://www.sagonet.com I'm sure some of you have heard of nexopia.com I designed the logo and skins for that site. They just bought 7 dedicated servers there and are switching everything over. From what I hear...GREAT hosting company. Maybe something for rage to check out.

[Ben]

I'm pretty sure rage knows what he's doing...hahaha, one of the smartest IT people I know. Actually the whole beyond admin team is rather impressive.

[rage2]

The OS has nothing to do with performance. Win2K + PHP performs absolutely perfect. MySQL under Win2K is perfect too.

There were some performance issues last week, I fixed it by removing some inefficient queries that we installed with some mods to the software.

If you think ditching Win2K as an OS and installing FreeBSD, linux, or whatever other *nix crap would magically give you free performance, dont expect to work in my IT department lol.

If you think MS servers are unreliablie POS's and *nix is the only way to go, our servers host most of the Alberta based car forums. Beyond, 403honda, 780tuners, fasttimes... There's no comparison in terms of reliability. The only reoccuring issues we have is Telus DSL customers trying to reach us. And that's because their Freebsd proxy keeps fucking up! lol

[ThE tV 8 mE]

Originally posted by rage2
The OS has nothing to do with performance. Win2K + PHP performs absolutely perfect. MySQL under Win2K is perfect too.

There were some performance issues last week, I fixed it by removing some inefficient queries that we installed with some mods to the software.

If you think ditching Win2K as an OS and installing FreeBSD, linux, or whatever other *nix crap would magically give you free performance, dont expect to work in my IT department lol.

I'm not saying that there are big performance differences..but linux is much more secure, and is rarely rebooted...thats all. I find to have a lot less problems with linux then I did with windows. But hey....it works right?

[rage2]

Much more secure? As Chris Rock would say... Nigga please! :rofl:

Any OS isn't secure by default. A default installation of Win2K is just as insecure as a default installatoin of Slackware, FreeBSD, Redhat... you name it.

If all these MS OS's are so insecure, every single microsoft OS hosted site would be hacked by now. A properly setup Win2K box is inpenetrable.

The reason why Windows is perceived as insecure is because windows is the most popular OS, it's used by most people, installed with default options and no security patches by non security concious people, and the easiest to target because of such a large user base.

If it wasnt Windows with the monopoly, and it was Linux with the largest home user monopoly, the same thing would happen. Ask any rookie computer user who installed a linux distro on their PCs, plugged into the internet, and how long it took before the box was rooted ;).

[kenny]

Originally posted by ThE tV 8 mE


I'm not saying that there are big performance differences..but linux is much more secure, and is rarely rebooted...thats all. I find to have a lot less problems with linux then I did with windows. But hey....it works right?

A Windows based OS can be just as secure if you know what you are doing. The problem is, most cheeto eating nerds like to find exploits for Windows because it gives them a hard-on. Whoever is in charge of system security just has to be on top of things when it comes to patching the OS when new exploits are found. Same thing goes for linux, if whoever is administering the linux box is some retard from hell and an exploit is released, that box will be raped just as quickly as if it were a windows based system.

A windows based server is rarely rebooted as well, in fact when I was working at Replicon, my personal system running win2k had an uptime of nearly 2 years and suffered no security problems (thank rage2 for securing everything properly).