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View Full Version : Kitchen Knives -- lots of good knives, but what about value?



r3ccOs
09-25-2009, 12:10 AM
I've had some crap knives from Chicago Cutlery, to independent pieces from ceramic LG pairing, Henckel Twin 4star bread and a couple Shun pieces I've recieved as a gift (a boneing and Santoku)

The Henckel is a serrated blade so I've only used it really ever for Bread

The Shun pieces are great all around, but its incredibly difficult to get the edge right. Its not a standard sharpen or edge process with a steel or sharpener.

Overall the balance of the Shun is nice, but my god its an expensive knife and it just isn't the length I needed.

So low & behold, I dug around the net to find out whether there are a few good values around that have received some solid review.

& There were a number.
They range from specific cuisineart knives, to mundials, victorinox to henckel or wustoff.

However it seems that from a culinary perspective, alot of restaurants use products supplied by restaurant supply companies. (go figure right? lol)

So I dug around further, and I see that a number of restaurants purchase two major brands for general use, but one significantly more.

Victorinox Forschner -- Very popular, especially in a plastic fibrox handle. Thin, light flexable blade that holds an alright edge, but very easy to sharpen.
Made of stamped powder'd steel. Very affordable

The most however preferred (I called 4 different supplies across NA): Henckel Twin Master (part of their twin line). Lightweight compared to other Twin Henckles as its not a full tang knife, and has a bright plastic yellow fibrox handle.
Apparently its the SAME blade as what Henckel uses in all their Twins, ranging from cuisine, fourstar and even pro.

Now, you won't find much about the Twin Master, as Henckel doesn't have much published online about them. But they are stamped on the blade with the same method Frudoir - hot drop cooled method as the other blades are in the ZWILLING JA Henckle TWIN line (Pro/4star/cuisine)

Now, the yellow fibrox plastic handle is light but is non-slip. Its not nearly as astheticially pleasing but its overall weight is reasonably balanced. Compared to the Victorinox Forschner, its much stiffer in the blade and feels more substantial.
The yellow is bright, but made to be for two reasons: Kitchen theft deturrent
To be highly visable for safety (such as in dishwater, where it shouldn't be)

My buddy is a prep cook at the palliser, and he was always raving about some German yellow handled knife. I called him today, and said... did you mean Henckles? He told me to wait, then picked up the phone and said, yup those ones.

I can live with the yellow, and think that they look pretty badass on my magnetic holder.

This is the thing.. I went to Genea kitchen supplies and picked up a 10" Chef's knife, 9" slicer and a pairing knife (all twin masters) for $59.70
That's less than half the price of an equivalent Chef's knife from Henckle's retail line.

Even their reps said its not worth spending the extra cash on the other Henckel knives, which they carry, as they are adamant that the blades are the same. Same performance, almost 1/5 the price! They also had some nice Globe & Wustoff, but said, that this yellow handled Chef's knife will be the last I'll buy.

I took it home, and have to say that they are on-par performance wise with the Shun's.. in fact easier as the Chef's knife is a better all purpose in my hands than the Santoku.

I'm pretty certain that I'll never spend any more on knives than I have to, as with other things such as my other cookware and preperation pieces.

Mitsu3000gt
09-25-2009, 08:52 AM
Have a look at the thread I started in the Home & Garden section about this exact topic:

http://forums.beyond.ca/st/276874/good-kitchen-knives/

I did a lot of research and came to the conclusion that fewer excellent knives were better than a whole set of decent ones. I ended up with a Santoku knife hand made in Japan by a knife/sword smith. There is no comparison between that and Henkel/Wusthof in my opinion. The German knives are made out of a lower quality steel, lose their edge faster, but they are better for rougher work of if you are going to be hitting a lot of bones.

Shun knives are decent but they are the "low end of the high end" and they don't sell them in Japan. They tend to be marked up a lot by various stores but you can probably get them cheaper online if you must have them.

Go visit Kevin down at Kinfewear and try out some knives there, you won't want to cut with anything else again. The Japanese knives are harder to sharpen but they are also much harder steel so you need to sharpen them a lot less often. It's probably best to have a professional sharpen your knives anyways.

r3ccOs
09-25-2009, 10:43 AM
Yea I should have posted this thread in a home & garden.

I realize that blades can obviously range from absolute garbage to the exclusive like anything.

I think that Wustoffs & Henckels are like the Rolex of knives, where they are somewhat common, but have great appeal and quality.

Where as those exclusive knives that Kevin has are like those Patek Phillipe watches which are extraordinary.

However that is reflected in its price...
I mean god damn a Henckel 4star block costs close to $200 or more for a large one.

This thread was about knives with good -> great performance for a good price.

So far my commercial grade yellow handled Henckels with the Fridour blades have been tremendous value and have performed incredibly.

I can built a whole set and buy a magnetic holder for about the same price as the block I mentioned lol.

lint
09-25-2009, 10:47 AM
^^^ Did you mean Geanel Restaurant Supplies? I couldn't find a Genea kitchen supplies in Calgary

r3ccOs
09-25-2009, 11:24 AM
That it... my bad Geanel

Mitsu3000gt
09-25-2009, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by r3ccOs
Yea I should have posted this thread in a home & garden.

I realize that blades can obviously range from absolute garbage to the exclusive like anything.

I think that Wustoffs & Henckels are like the Rolex of knives, where they are somewhat common, but have great appeal and quality.

Where as those exclusive knives that Kevin has are like those Patek Phillipe watches which are extraordinary.

However that is reflected in its price...
I mean god damn a Henckel 4star block costs close to $200 or more for a large one.

This thread was about knives with good -> great performance for a good price.

So far my commercial grade yellow handled Henckels with the Fridour blades have been tremendous value and have performed incredibly.

I can built a whole set and buy a magnetic holder for about the same price as the block I mentioned lol.

Kevin has some bang for the buck stuff too, $80-$150/knife if I recall, and you can easily spend that on Henkel/Wusthof stuff. IMO those are exceptional knives at good prices.

There's nothing wrong with a good set from Henkel/Wusthof though, and it sounds like you have a good thing going with that kitchen supply store. I might have to check that out for the kinves I don't care about quite as much (I wanted at least one really good multi-purpose knfe).

r3ccOs
09-25-2009, 12:27 PM
first of more to come

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/r3cc0s/P9250002.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/r3cc0s/P9250005.jpg

nonlinear
09-25-2009, 02:46 PM
what is that bottom knife with the weird round end on it?

but i want some of these yellow knives. Does Geanel Restaurant Supplies have a physical store i can go into, or do i have to call them and order them?

also, the only thing about not having a full tang is that at some point, the handle is going to fall off the knife. i've had this happen within a couple of years for some knives, but have others for about 8 years now that still have the handles. but really, if you can get several years out of a knife that is like $20, it's worth it to just buy a new one when it breaks.

nonlinear
09-25-2009, 02:48 PM
oops

r3ccOs
09-25-2009, 05:17 PM
both of those knives have the same markings on them and yup Genael off of 36th ave NE has a whole showroom stock full of these things.

thetransporter
10-02-2009, 01:28 PM
never mind those dollar store knives

try the RONCO knives

https://www.ronco.com/knives/Default.aspx?source=google-knives



"Prices are amazing."
https://www.ronco.com/knives/testibig_04.gif

r3ccOs
10-02-2009, 10:12 PM
go ronco!

But I'll probably buy a nice hand hammered Santoku from Kevin @ knifeware :D

dj_rice
10-02-2009, 10:14 PM
Bottom knife I believe is a carving knife or slicing knife, pretty sure its used for roasts so you can slice thin, I'll post up the knives I've been currently using and have had since 2000 and still going strong, they are also JA Henkels but 5 star series

szw
10-06-2009, 05:14 PM
I was thinking of picking up one of those yellow handled chef's knives but I don't really need it. They go for about $30-$35. Seems like a good value.

clem24
10-08-2009, 12:10 AM
I use Rada:

http://www.radacutlery.com/

Here's the thing though. They are SHARP AS HELL, but with a caveat: they require frequent resharpening. The blades are ultra thin and can slice through anything. They are very reasonably priced (i.e. you can get about 6 for the price of a Wustoff). But regarding the sharpening - because they are so thin, they can be resharpened in literally seconds. There's a special sharpening tool they have with 2 wheels on it. Run it through a few times and it's good as new. Plus they come with a lifetime warranty. People have chipped knives trying to cut stupid things, they'll send it in and Rada just gives them a new one.

Anyway, I've had mine for about 2 years now and they are still awesome and are my most used knives. I also received a Wustof $150 knife for my wedding and hardly use it cause it just doesn't see to compare at all to the Radas.

Aside from the frequent sharpening, the only other thing would be avoid the dishwasher unless you won't mind mild oxidation on the handles (blades are perfect though).

If you want the best, try visiting Paul's Finest and getting a Misono...

http://www.paulsfinest.com/

Weapon_R
10-12-2009, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by clem24
I use Rada:

http://www.radacutlery.com/

Here's the thing though. They are SHARP AS HELL, but with a caveat: they require frequent resharpening. The blades are ultra thin and can slice through anything. They are very reasonably priced (i.e. you can get about 6 for the price of a Wustoff). But regarding the sharpening - because they are so thin, they can be resharpened in literally seconds. There's a special sharpening tool they have with 2 wheels on it. Run it through a few times and it's good as new. Plus they come with a lifetime warranty. People have chipped knives trying to cut stupid things, they'll send it in and Rada just gives them a new one.

Anyway, I've had mine for about 2 years now and they are still awesome and are my most used knives. I also received a Wustof $150 knife for my wedding and hardly use it cause it just doesn't see to compare at all to the Radas.

Aside from the frequent sharpening, the only other thing would be avoid the dishwasher unless you won't mind mild oxidation on the handles (blades are perfect though).

If you want the best, try visiting Paul's Finest and getting a Misono...

http://www.paulsfinest.com/

I'm going to take your word and order up a set. I have read nothing but good things about these knives, although information is hard to find. The one thing that makes me worry is that their primary marketing tactic is selling through fundraisers. I have read that they compare to the better known brands like Wustof and Henckels though, but at a fifth of the price and made in the U.S.A. I'll follow up and post findings

clem24
10-12-2009, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by Weapon_R


I'm going to take your word and order up a set. I have read nothing but good things about these knives, although information is hard to find. The one thing that makes me worry is that their primary marketing tactic is selling through fundraisers. I have read that they compare to the better known brands like Wustof and Henckels though, but at a fifth of the price and made in the U.S.A. I'll follow up and post findings

Yes they truly are. They seem to sell mostly through word of mouth and such. The reason why I personally like them so much is that they are so thin but strong. They are basically modeled after surgical tools. I highly recommend the French chef's knife and the carrot peeler - it is by far the sharpest carrot peeler I have ever used. And do make sure you buy the sharpener as well. You'll love the knives even more knowing that you got a whole set of them for the price of 2 wustoff or henckels.

Weapon_R
10-12-2009, 01:32 PM
I was about to buy a set of Victorinox Fibrox for $100 and found these on Amazon U.S. for $49. The Henckels were at least $150+ but I think these are going to be good. If they work out I'll get a set for my parents as well.

r3ccOs
10-17-2009, 12:08 AM
Tried out a set of Forschners the other day...
For vegetables, the Forschner Santoku w/ Graton edge is fabulous.

Its thin... its light, and doesn't stick and the fibrox handle is comfortable.

The thin stamped blade, I was able to sharpen razor sharp with a diamond steel and a solid finishing steel.

That being said, its easy to hone, but will lose its edge faster, as its rockwell is a 54-55...

It also is a bit light IMO for meats, even the larger 10" chefs, where the Twin master is more tapered and heavier.

The twin master cannot be sharped as much, as its a thicker blade (well they don't have a santoku), but it does hold the edge better...

A 4star henckel and Wustoff Triden is anywhere from 55-57
The henckel Ceramax is rated @ 66, which will hold an incredible edge, but will require a diamond steel (which will still wear quikcly) to hone.

Now... get this boys & girls... there are plenty of other knives that get into the top sharpness point without breaking the bank.

Shun has a number of FG10 & FG1 steel blades (the one with the metal folds) for about the same price as the Wustoff and Henckels with a much harder rockwell of HRC of 61

but... above that... there is a 7" Ikea Slitbar series chef knife also made of the same FG10 that should have the same rockwell rating for $79.99 (that is the only knife that is a FG10 in the collection, and you can tell by the folds)

szw
10-21-2009, 07:13 AM
I have a "twin gourmet" and it is stamped, not forged....its the low end of the twin line. I think the Twin Masters are stamped also. They are made in spain. The 4-star, Pro-S with the forged blades are all made in Germany.

Anyways I'm not really that impressed with it but for $35 it's good to have. I'm been looking at that ikea FG10 knife...it sure does look nice. I was thinking of going a different way and going for these presidents choice ceramic knives. They are really sharp, and at $25 for a chef knife, if it lasts a year with proper care, I think it might be a real option to consider for the home user who doesn't want to deal with sharpening their german or japanese knife. Just throw it out and get a new one when it gets dull.

nonlinear
10-21-2009, 08:02 AM
^^what is this FG10 knife you speak of?

szw
10-21-2009, 08:15 AM
Sorry I meant VG10 which is the type of steel usually associated with Japanese knives (has that nice pattern on the side of the blade).

http://www.ikea.com/ca/en/catalog/products/90131068

$80 here, $50 in the US.

r3ccOs
10-21-2009, 08:24 AM
funny enough it doesn't indicate that it is VG(not fg) 10 on the site... but I picked it up yesterday and it is stamped VG10 Carbon Steel on it!

Its thin, comfortable and balanced for an 8" chef's knife and yes it has all those fold markings as it is several layers of steel over a very hard core.

Out of "steel" knives, the VG10 is concidered the best material for kitchen knives, and again... this knife is about a hundred bucks less than the next VG10 knife you can get from a common name.

I also have the diamond steel that is in the series, which is an amazing bang for the buck @ $24...

As for my twin masters, they are stamped and made in spain... like you said the "lower" of the twin series but still Fridour processed.

They are maybe just a 1 or 2 below the Twin Cuisines/4star/Pro in the rockwell ratings... but if you use a steel on them before use (or after) every time... you'll they perform brilliantly.

However this 8" Ikea Slitbar chef's knife is just tip effing top.
I have no idea about the rest of the slitbar line, and will assume that the molybdenum/vanadium-steelsteel is "maybe" forged, but it doesn't indicate so.
Don't buy the wrong one... they have 2 identical knives, one not VG10.
Then again its easy to spot, and one is $29 and the other is $79
*again, the Ikea Website doesn't state that it is a VG10, it is actuality stamped on the blade*

Mitsu3000gt
10-21-2009, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by szw
Sorry I meant VG10 which is the type of steel usually associated with Japanese knives (has that nice pattern on the side of the blade).

http://www.ikea.com/ca/en/catalog/products/90131068

$80 here, $50 in the US.

VG10 is apparently the "low end of the high end" when it comes to Japanese knives. More durable but won't hold an edge as well, is what I was told.

szw
10-21-2009, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt


VG10 is apparently the "low end of the high end" when it comes to Japanese knives. More durable but won't hold an edge as well, is what I was told.

So what is "higher end"?

Mitsu3000gt
10-21-2009, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by szw


So what is "higher end"?

#1 and #2 blue steel, I believe. Much harder, easy to resharpen, and holds an edge for a long time. Thats what the super high end Japanese knives are made of.

lint
10-21-2009, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
#1 and #2 blue steel, I believe. Much harder, easy to resharpen, and holds an edge for a long time. Thats what the super high end Japanese knives are made of.

Those two points are contradictory. If the steel is much harder, it would be more difficult to sharpen.

szw
10-21-2009, 11:50 AM
Here is some info I just found but it doesn't really compare them all:
http://korin.com/Learn/Elements-of-Steel

Neat stuff

JAYMEZ
10-21-2009, 11:54 AM
^^ How much are the high end Japanese knives your talking about?

lint
10-21-2009, 11:56 AM
Kind of a tangent, but there was a National Geographic special about how Katanas are made. They wrap a super hard steel with a a softer steel for the edge to get the best of strength and sharpness. Really interesting.

http://www.spikedhumor.com/articles/101393/How_It_s_Made_Samurai_Sword_Katana.html

Also, the pattern doesn't come from folding the steel, it's painted on with clay and a signature of the craftsman. For a sword anyways.

Mitsu3000gt
10-21-2009, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by lint


Those two points are contradictory. If the steel is much harder, it would be more difficult to sharpen.

I was just quoting what the Knifewear guy said. This is from his website: "Often referred to as Yasuki #1 Blue Steel this is a great knife makers steel. It is hard, extremely easy to re-sharpen, rust resistant (for carbon steel), capable of an outstanding mirror finish and a long lived edge. What more can you want? This is high performance steel" He repeatedly mentions the really hard steels being "easy to sharpen" but I agree logic would suggest harder = harder to sharpen.

Also, your point about how Katanas are made, that is how some of the knives are made too. The knife I bought is made like you say, with Blue steel #2 in the middle and coated in stainless.

I have the Santoku knife from this category: http://www.knifewear.com/knife-family.asp?family=12

Highly, highly, recommened and the price isn't even bad compared to what you can buy at many other local stores.

clem24
10-21-2009, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by JAYMEZ
^^ How much are the high end Japanese knives your talking about?

Look on the link I provided for some Misono knives...

r3ccOs
10-21-2009, 02:57 PM
VG10 is one of the best all around steels to use for the kitchen... Rockwell of 59-61 generally

There is VG1 which is harder, and then there are those very exclusive "blue steel" tempered knives, which Kevin has...

He has incredible knives, the only issue is...
#1 they are expensive to purchase a whole set, and this thread is about good value


#2 sharpening is tough
The metal is very hard, about 63+, so you'd have to use perhaps a diamond steel, or only sharpen using water/oil stones
Also they are sharpened to 15 deg per side or less, razor sharp, but this also means its that much harder to get to that accuracy, especially when we're all used to using a steel or stone @ 20 deg

They are beautiful knives, and one day I'm sure to get some stuff from Kevin...

In the mean time, I'm very happy with my VG10 Ikea Slitbar & my set of Henckel Twin Master

r3ccOs
10-21-2009, 03:00 PM
p.s. this is a VG10

good prices too!

http://www.knifewear.com/knife-family.asp?family=3

Weapon_R
10-21-2009, 03:10 PM
So I finally got my set of RADA knives and these things are impressive. Sharper than anything I've used before. The Chef's knife and slicer are literally as sharp as a razor.

They are really thin and I wonder how long the blade will stay this sharp. Time will tell, but so far so good.

szw
10-21-2009, 07:45 PM
Did you find any info about what RADA is made of, where/how they are made and by who?

clem24
10-22-2009, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by Weapon_R
They are really thin and I wonder how long the blade will stay this sharp. Time will tell, but so far so good.

Again I hope you bought the sharpener. Well worth the $10 or whatever they charge. That's one of the issues of the Radas. While they're still sharp, you'll need the sharpener to get them back to razor sharpness. The knives are simply the best that I've used given the price.

szw
10-22-2009, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by r3ccOs

The metal is very hard, about 63+, so you'd have to use perhaps a diamond steel, or only sharpen using water/oil stones

I'm curious because you keep mentioning sharpening with your diamond steel. Steels don't sharpen a knife, they hone it. And a diamond steel actually takes off some metal so I would be careful with it. From what I've read, a diamond steel is not usually recommended in general.

edit: ok, since a diamond steel will take a bit of metal off, I guess it can be considered sharpening, but I would consider it a bad type of sharpening that can damage your edge.

Weapon_R
10-22-2009, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by szw
Did you find any info about what RADA is made of, where/how they are made and by who?

High carbon stainless steel, made in the U.S.A and obviously made by Rada.

mikes334
10-26-2009, 01:30 PM
yea I would not use a diamond steel to sharpen my knives.

r3ccOs
10-26-2009, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by mikes334
yea I would not use a diamond steel to sharpen my knives.

You use what you need to use

Talking to the guys at a couple knife stores, they recommend the diamond steel from time to time to "sharpen"

Use a regular steel for honing

With that, you probbaly can extend the time you need to actuality use a stone by quite a substantial time

alloroc
10-26-2009, 03:37 PM
I have one Henkel and one Shantuku sitting in my drawer and these on the countertop which I actually use...

Wiltshire stay sharp.
http://www.wiltshire-online.com/images/products/STAY13004P.jpg

They aren't as sharp as the others, but they sharpen in 3 seconds with way less hassel and still get the job done.

Lagerstatten.ca
12-02-2009, 11:37 PM
I was debating back and forth over the different brands of knives available locally in Calgary at the major retailers (Henckel, Wusthof, Shun, Henckel Miyabi). Ended up getting a set off of Amazon for about 20% less than in the stores. Got the following from the Shun Classic Line:

8" Chef (for some reason Amazon can't ship the 10" to Canada)
6" Utility
6.5" Santoku
7" Nakiri
3.5" Pairing
Honing Steel Rod
Bamboo Block

They are wickedly sharp compared to the Wusthof Ikon, Henckel Twin Pro S. The Miyabi's were comparable but I liked the look of the Shun's more.

My family has been using Henckels for 20+ years and most haven't been sharpened as they've still kept their edge after all these years. Amazing knives...but I just wanted something different as my own set.

I'll definitely be checking out Knifewear...looks like a cool store! That IKEA VG10 blade looks like a good deal as well.

Now that I have a great set of knives from Shun, I'm not sure what to do with my existing mix-n-match knives that I have from Zellers/Superstore. One is the Superstore Santoku that they claim is as good as the Henckels, and another is a KitchenAid Santoku. Both were decently sharp when I first got them, but about a month later their edge has gone dull. Can't cut a tomato without squishing it a bit.

I've never sharpened a knife before but bought a small diamond steel rod from Bass Pro Shops for 20 bucks. Any tips how to use it properly?

Gondi Stylez
12-03-2009, 04:28 PM
The two knives I use most often is:
- 10" Misono UX10 Gyuto ~$200 and worth every flipping cent, if you're a serious home cook and a must if you're a chef IMHO!
- 7" Tijiro DP Nakiri ~$80 which is super sharp out of box, damn inexpensive compared my to Shun Nakiri which isn't as good and handles squash, etc with ease

For a honing rod I'm really liking the new 10" MAC Black Ceramic one ~$50

I buy pretty much everything from Paul at www.paulsfinest.com (MTL based supplier) or when our dollar is strong www.chefknivestogo.com

If the Misono UX10 is out of your price range I would suggest the Wusthof Culinar 7" Santoku (I really like mine) or if the stainless handle is too heavy/dislike then the Grand Prix II line is exactly the same just with a rubber handle. Either of these could be had for just over $100 I'd assume.

The only other 3 knives I'd suggest you'd buy is a 10" bread knife or 8" offset one, a cheap pairing knife from Home Outfitters (I use the Khun Rikon which come in TONS of colours and are ~$10) and a 270mm slicer.

You can find cheap blocks/magnetic strips, etc. from any home store.

That really is the basic 5 knives you'll ever use and the Nakiri isn't even that necessary. Keep up the ceramic honing (before each use) and when the budget allows invest in some whetstones and sharpen your own knives. There are lots of great websites/youtube videos that tell you how to go about it. You could also opt for an electric sharpener made for Japanese style knives (Chefs Choice model 316 ~$85 has great reviews).

Hope that helped and happy cooking.

Gondi Stylez
12-03-2009, 04:33 PM
Just saw that you already purchased some Shun knives.

DON'T USE that cheap diamond steel you bought. You will ruin your knives. As I mentioned before, use the honing rod your set came with and then purchase these whetstones: http://www.chefknivestogo.com/kecowh.html

Here is some FYI from the Shun website: http://www.kershawknives.com/faq.php?brand=shun

Lagerstatten.ca
12-03-2009, 06:31 PM
Thanks for the tip! I'll head down to Knifewear and pick up a set of whetstones later.