Sauber

[kkuk]

What engine do you think Sauber will have next year??

I am thinking it will be a mercede's engine.

I am new to the forum and would love to know what you all think..

[beyond_ban]

:thumbsup:

[H4LFY2nR]

Welcome.

Its been confirmed that they'll be Ferrari powered next year.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns21868.html

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/090916101243.shtml


Unfortunately McLaren doesn't want everyone to have the same competitive edge that the MB engine gives. They vetoed the Redbull deal (http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/091102115313.shtml) so I'd assume they would have done the same to Sauber. Hopefully the FIA will allow the other engine manufacturers to play catch up now that it's obvious that the MB is dominant. It'll also be interesting how competitive the Cosworth will be since they are allowed to develop during next season.

[Roaring G60]

Don't forget that without special exemption (ie: Brawn) a engine supplier can only supply two teams.

[Team_Mclaren]

Originally posted by H4LFY2nR


Hopefully the FIA will allow the other engine manufacturers to play catch up now that it's obvious that the MB is dominant. It'll also be interesting how competitive the Cosworth will be since they are allowed to develop during next season.

So you are saying that if someone builds a faster car, they should let others extra testing session to catch up? that makes absolutely no sense.


Originally posted by Roaring G60
Don't forget that without special exemption (ie: Brawn) a engine supplier can only supply two teams.

Force Indian uses MB engines too... Cosworth is supplying for 5 teams next year...

[H4LFY2nR]

Originally posted by Roaring G60
Don't forget that without special exemption (ie: Brawn) a engine supplier can only supply two teams.

That rule's pretty useless now that there's only 4 suppliers and 13 teams. Everyone gets special exemption from that rule. In most cases that rule is counterproductive for the suppliers anyways. It's McLaren's special veto power over MB's contracts, combined with the engine performance freeze that's causing them to (smartly) nix any new deals.



Originally posted by Team_Mclaren


So you are saying that if someone builds a faster car, they should let others extra testing session to catch up? that makes absolutely no sense.

How does equalizing engine performance through competition make no sense? Since it seems there is an extra-competitive engine that's protected from it's rivals, I would like to see all teams/suppliers allowed equal development boundaries for the sake of fair competition. Renault was allowed to catch up, and it was rumored Toyota would've got to as well. I don't think that was fair to everyone else, including McLaren/MB. Plus, if you're just trying to support McLaren, I'd be worried about Mercedes dumping them in the near future anyways.

[Team_Mclaren]

Originally posted by H4LFY2nR





How does equalizing engine performance through competition make no sense? Since it seems there is an extra-competitive engine that's protected from it's rivals, I would like to see all teams/suppliers allowed equal development boundaries for the sake of fair competition. Renault was allowed to catch up, and it was rumored Toyota would've got to as well. I don't think that was fair to everyone else, including McLaren/MB. Plus, if you're just trying to support McLaren, I'd be worried about Mercedes dumping them in the near future anyways.

F1 is not a spec race. Why should the slow teams/engines granted extra tuning/testing just because they're slow? It's not "fair" that one team/engine is faster? that makes no sense. It is/was a fair competition and certain engines came out on top... simple as that.

Support Mclaren or not makes no different. If Mclaren loses MB engines, then so be it. It wont be not the first time they're not powered by MB and certainly wont be the last. There's been rumors that Mclaren wants to buy out Sauber's(BMW) engine development department, which is even more hardcore.

[buh_buh]

If they're not going to allow catching up, they should just undo the engine freeze. The engine freeze is bullshit anyway. They should just say manufacturers can't develop the engine during the season, then they can do whatever they want between November and March.

I think when they implemented the engine freeze, everyone was under the assumption that all the engines were making equal power. At least that's how I understood it. That's why Renault was allowed to "catch up".

[Team_Mclaren]

^^ I think thats what im trying to get at.

They were allowed to continue engine development for a period of time, some suppliers came out on top, some makes less power. The inferior engines were allowed extra development(Renault), which imo is BS.

[buh_buh]

yeah, but I think the point of the engine freeze was so everyone would be on equal ground for the next 10 years or whatever hp wise so they could focus on aero and mechanical grip. That's why teams are allowed to catch up. The FIA didn't want any one engine to be on top. They wanted things to be equal, though I think power delivery would be quite different on every engine, even if peak hp were the same.

I say scrap the engine freeze and just don't let teams develop their engines during the season.

[H4LFY2nR]

Originally posted by Team_Mclaren


F1 is not a spec race. Why should the slow teams/engines granted extra tuning/testing just because they're slow? It's not "fair" that one team/engine is faster? that makes no sense. It is/was a fair competition and certain engines came out on top... simple as that.



Becasue of the 8 engine rule, everyone was still allowed to mod them for reliability purposes. A lot of gains were made by MB disguising them as "byproducts" of reliability. Since what makes F1 different from other series is supposed to be that teams compete with the engineering design of their entire car, how does forcing the engineers to stop evolving their designs make any sense for the sport? I don't think it's fair that any one design is on top while their competition can't do anything to challenge them for that spot.

The FIA knows how much power the engines make, and their current method of allowing the slow ones to catch up is stupid, I agree with you on that. I reread what I posted first, and to clarify, I don't agree with the rule, but if the development freeze stays, and the FIA allows one team to catch up, then everyone should be allowed to catch up. However, I would still prefer that everyone, including MB, gets to develop.

The FIA is trying to equalize all of them in terms of power, reliability, and cost for the sake of keeping the whole field competitive. They are shrinking the engineering design scope, which if continued, will result in an essentially spec'd engine. Alternatively, I think development budget caps would have been the best fix, as it would stimulate the most innovative and cost efficient design solutions, but it's hard to get FOTA to agree to that.

[Team_Mclaren]

^^ the only way to have "equal" performance, either engine or car wise is to have one sole supplier. Which makes it a spec championship.

What happens when Renault or Cosworth becomes more competitive? Do we allow others (MB/Ferrari) to resume development as well. Its an endless cycle. I do agree with you that the engine freeze should be scraped.

[H4LFY2nR]

Originally posted by Team_Mclaren
^^ the only way to have "equal" performance, either engine or car wise is to have one sole supplier. Which makes it a spec championship.

What happens when Renault or Cosworth becomes more competitive? Do we allow others (MB/Ferrari) to resume development as well. Its an endless cycle. I do agree with you that the engine freeze should be scraped.

Exactly, the engine freeze will never be fair and the catch ups should never end. They want to spec the engine performance to make the racing more interesting, whereas letting them all develop within a budget would be more interesting while being more fair IMO.

[buh_buh]

The reliability fix is the biggest part of the bs that is the engine freeze. Lets call a spade a spade here and call a modification to the engine a modification to the engine. If you're going to have an engine freeze, you don't let anybody modify the engine for any reason. F1 is such a joke when it comes to its rules and politics. How it continues to be a running organization with any credibility is perplexing.