View Full Version : New home: Moving the furnace?
bobafixed
11-12-2009, 12:36 PM
Hi everyone,
We're about to pull the trigger on building a new home, however we have a serious problem with the furnace in the basement.
The design of the house has the furnace and hot water tank located right in the middle of the basement and we were wondering if its possible to relocate it off to the side? We're not trying to move it more than 5 or 6 feet, but it would make a huge difference for future basement development plans.
The sales guy said it would be impossible. We've asked around and the general impression we've gotten is that it's doable. Is the sales guy feeding us a line?
ercchry
11-12-2009, 12:41 PM
the only reason that i could see it being "impossible" in the eyes of the sales guy is that the builder has one set of plans for all homes built and the only changes you get to make are that of the finishings... this is the case with the more cookie cutter new homes.
captain134
11-12-2009, 12:44 PM
I don't see why you couldn't it will take a little more duct work and vent piping. The only problem I can think of would be that maybe the vent has to be straight up through the house with out any bends but I don't see why that would be. I think the sales guy is feeding you some bull.
Tik-Tok
11-12-2009, 12:44 PM
Totally possible, but you're going to pay for it (if the builder won't do it, a contractor surely will after the house is finished)
bobafixed
11-12-2009, 12:45 PM
His only reasoning was that it would drastically effect the efficiency of the furnace and would result in certain rooms being colder than others. I've been in plenty of older homes that have the furnace in a small corner and no heating issues to speak of.
Guess I'll push a bit harder to have it moved, thanks guys :)
quazimoto
11-12-2009, 12:58 PM
It all depends on the type of furnace they are installing in your home. If they are installing a mid efficiency level furnace they still have the ventillation for the furnace exhaust going up through the roof where as high efficiency furnaces out through the side of the foundation.
If they are using a mid efficiency furnace it would be more reasonable since they need a specific location to vent the furnace. Changing the duct work in the basement is inexpensive and overall depending on how they work the size of the ducts it shouldn't effect the heating of the home that much overall.
sputnik
11-12-2009, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by captain134
I don't see why you couldn't it will take a little more duct work and vent piping. The only problem I can think of would be that maybe the vent has to be straight up through the house with out any bends but I don't see why that would be. I think the sales guy is feeding you some bull.
High efficiency furnaces vent out the side of the house.
topmade
11-12-2009, 01:29 PM
We built with Shane and has no problems moving the furnace. The only thing effected is efficiency that is barely noticable in heat and bills.
mr2mike
11-12-2009, 01:41 PM
With the ducting. What do you guys suggest? I know the older houses run that tin stuff which is more labour intensive to cut and put in the bend adapters, etc.
The newer stuff I see is the bendable stuff like a exhaust port of a dryer. Anyone have experience with the bendable, easier to work with stuff?
ExtraSlow
11-12-2009, 01:44 PM
Ask if you can work in an upgrade to the high efficiency furnace, which would need to be vented out the side wall of the house anyway.
Masked Bandit
11-12-2009, 02:47 PM
DO NOT TAKE THIS CRAP! It's a pretty solid guess that your sales guy doesn't know shit about construction. If the furnace is that weak / undersized then you should be upgrading it anyway. If they hold firm on this I strongly suggest you find another builder.
bobafixed
11-12-2009, 03:08 PM
Awesome, thanks everyone. This makes me a lot more confident in pushing for them to relocate the furnace :thumbsup:
Our home builder is Broadview, not sure if they use high efficiency furnaces as a standard. I'll have to ask them about that.
mekeni
11-12-2009, 03:14 PM
it's doable !!
You can even have that for free if you haven't signed anything yet. At this point of time anything is doable.
List of what I got (asked) for free:
Washer and dryer
Garage 2 feet longer and wider (includes driveway)
Skylight
And many small things (lights, switches, cable and tel on every room)
quazimoto
11-12-2009, 03:31 PM
washer and dryer are standard with just about every normal builder in Calgary. Most builders right now are most unlikely to give you much for free in terms of a "hard cost". I mean you are easily looking at a $2,000 difference going from mid efficiency to high efficiency and then it really depends if its AC or DC powered fans, etc.
Yes moving it is posible. As long it stay's on the side of the beam that they have it designed for.
They are just feeding you a line.
There are no extra costs for it, so do not let them pull that trick.
Good luck!
bobafixed
11-12-2009, 05:03 PM
Sadly, I dont believe we get a washer/dryer as standard for our home :( However, we're getting a bunch of other options that they voluntarily threw in.
Well, it looks like that furnace is getting moved whether the builder likes it or not :P I'll keep you guys updated with the furnace and any other freebies we get!
Cheers
quazimoto
11-12-2009, 05:04 PM
once again, not if its a mid efficiency level furnace. please don't tell the OP something that isn't necessarily true. Mid efficiency furnaces will have an exhaust that goes straight up through the home. It has nothing to do with what side of what beam the furnace is on. This is 100% where the exhaust vents to.
Usually it has more to do with how the rest of the home is designed on the main floor and possible second floor. Either way it's something you can get fixed.
Masked Bandit
11-12-2009, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by quazimoto
once again, not if its a mid efficiency level furnace. please don't tell the OP something that isn't necessarily true. Mid efficiency furnaces will have an exhaust that goes straight up through the home. It has nothing to do with what side of what beam the furnace is on. This is 100% where the exhaust vents to.
Usually it has more to do with how the rest of the home is designed on the main floor and possible second floor. Either way it's something you can get fixed.
Our last house came with a mid-efficiency furnace that was located along an outside wall?
:dunno:
Masked Bandit
11-12-2009, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by bobafixed
Awesome, thanks everyone. This makes me a lot more confident in pushing for them to relocate the furnace :thumbsup:
Our home builder is Broadview, not sure if they use high efficiency furnaces as a standard. I'll have to ask them about that.
Some of the best money you can spend on an upgrade is getting rid of a mid efficiency furnace and going to high efficiency.
brown911
11-12-2009, 06:25 PM
Upgrade the furnace, and yes the sales guy is feeding you a line. It doesn't matter that the builder has cookie cutter house plans to follow, anything can be changed.
bobafixed
11-12-2009, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by Masked Bandit
Some of the best money you can spend on an upgrade is getting rid of a mid efficiency furnace and going to high efficiency.
Hmm, hopefully it's already included. Any other tips for a first time home buyer? :D
sevewone
11-12-2009, 09:24 PM
Its possible, phone my roommate.... Hes a journeyman in hvac and is broke hell probably do it for a 24 case 333-9167
Masked Bandit
11-13-2009, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by bobafixed
Hmm, hopefully it's already included. Any other tips for a first time home buyer? :D
Don't hope it's included, check into it and demand a H.E. unit. It will pay for itself in a couple of years.
Probably the biggest tip I can give someone building their first house is don't be surprised when six months after possession you are not as happy with your residence as you thought you would've been. You'll find a lot of things after the fact that you wish you would've done differently. I've gone through the build process three times now and there are STILL things I would change about this last house.
Other than that, anything you discuss / negotiate with your sales person, GET IT IN WRITING! They will assure you from now until the end of time "don't worry, we'll take care of that". Ya.....right.
ercchry
11-13-2009, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by brown911
Upgrade the furnace, and yes the sales guy is feeding you a line. It doesn't matter that the builder has cookie cutter house plans to follow, anything can be changed.
you would think right? but the girlfriend's new place, they would not even give her a gas line to the back deck for the bbq!
Masked Bandit
11-13-2009, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by ercchry
you would think right? but the girlfriend's new place, they would not even give her a gas line to the back deck for the bbq!
What they CAN do and what the ARE WILLING to do can be two very different things. With that said, this isn't the boom again. I would LOVE to go through the build process now just to be a complete bitch of a customer to the sales guys / builders. A little payback for the way they were acting through the boom.
bobafixed
11-13-2009, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by Masked Bandit
Other than that, anything you discuss / negotiate with your sales person, GET IT IN WRITING! They will assure you from now until the end of time "don't worry, we'll take care of that". Ya.....right.
I've had a couple of people suggest getting everything in writing. Practically speaking, how does one go about doing that? After you're done negotiating everything, do you just ask them to list exactly what you're suppose to get and then have them sign it?
We're signing the papers tomorrow and I would have assumed that everything would automatically be documented and signed for when we do the papers ?
Sorry I'm a bit confused about how the whole process works.
Masked Bandit
11-13-2009, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by bobafixed
I've had a couple of people suggest getting everything in writing. Practically speaking, how does one go about doing that? After you're done negotiating everything, do you just ask them to list exactly what you're suppose to get and then have them sign it?
YES.
Originally posted by Masked Bandit
Don't hope it's included, check into it and demand a H.E. unit. It will pay for itself in a couple of years.
As someone who's just upgraded both furnaces in my house and done the cost analysis, HE will not pay for themselves over a couple of years. It will take over 5 years to make up the difference in cost between mid to high efficiency.
If you're only planning on staying in your house ~5 years, go with mid. If you plan on staying between 5-10, go with high.
Although I believe the gov't is soon to change regulations and only allow HE installations.
Masked Bandit
11-13-2009, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by lint
As someone who's just upgraded both furnaces in my house and done the cost analysis, HE will not pay for themselves over a couple of years. It will take over 5 years to make up the difference in cost between mid to high efficiency.
If you're only planning on staying in your house ~5 years, go with mid. If you plan on staying between 5-10, go with high.
Although I believe the gov't is soon to change regulations and only allow HE installations.
Are those calculations assuming the price of natural gas stays constant for the next five years? How cold is it going to be for the next five winters? If we have five more like we did this past winter, it won't take long at all.
ExtraSlow
11-13-2009, 03:37 PM
Also are you doing your caculations based on the cost of upgrading an existing unit or for a new build? the economics are better for new builds like this because you don't have to retrofit the existing system.
Originally posted by Masked Bandit
Are those calculations assuming the price of natural gas stays constant for the next five years? How cold is it going to be for the next five winters? If we have five more like we did this past winter, it won't take long at all.
A high efficiency furnace still uses the same natural gas. You're talking about a 12-15% increase in efficiency on average:
Mid efficiency ~80%
High efficiency >92%
How much will it cost you to upgrade from a mid to a high efficiency furnace?
quazimoto
11-13-2009, 04:16 PM
It's not just the gas savings, seriously you people don't look at it right when doing calculations. The good high efficiency furnaces also burn a lot less electricity by using multiple stage fans which also happen to draw a lot less electrical current. So they will save...
A) electricity
B) natural gas
C) take less space in the house since they have no exhaust going through your roof.
Originally posted by quazimoto
It's not just the gas savings, seriously you people don't look at it right when doing calculations. The good high efficiency furnaces also burn a lot less electricity by using multiple stage fans which also happen to draw a lot less electrical current. So they will save...
A) electricity
B) natural gas
C) take less space in the house since they have no exhaust going through your roof.
For your information this "you people" upgraded both furnaces in my house to high efficiency because I plan on living in it for the next 10 years. My point is that from a cost benefit analysis it very much depends on how long you plan on staying in the house. If you don't stay long enough, you won't recoup the upgrade costs.
One other key factor not directly related to costs for us:
- variable speed inducer and blower. better circulation and overall comfort minimizing hot and cold spots around the house
quazimoto
11-13-2009, 05:10 PM
Well to be honest who cares about costs, the facts its more efficient is also good for the environment. The cost difference he should be looking at is in the $2,000 range depending on furnace made.
FYI just about anybody buying a home these days is going to ask if the home has a high efficient furnace or not as well. I mean for the low cost of getting the high efficiency furance it's more than worth it.
alloroc
11-13-2009, 05:19 PM
You can move it.
An extra few feet of duct work if done right will have negligible impact on the total static pressure.
Originally posted by quazimoto
Well to be honest who cares about costs, the facts its more efficient is also good for the environment. The cost difference he should be looking at is in the $2,000 range depending on furnace made.
Must be nice to not have to care about costs. Those of us in the real world do.
But I digress, mid vs high efficiency is another matter separate from moving the furnace.
Masked Bandit
11-13-2009, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by lint
A high efficiency furnace still uses the same natural gas. You're talking about a 12-15% increase in efficiency on average:
Mid efficiency ~80%
High efficiency >92%
How much will it cost you to upgrade from a mid to a high efficiency furnace?
Well of course the cost of gas matters.
The cost to upgrade today remains fixed. Let's say it's $2500 (I have no idea if that is in the right ball park or not but it doesn't matter at this point).
The amount of time it will take to recoup that expense ($2500) is dependant on the amount of gas saved x the cost of the gas. If gas right now is $5 per GJL and you burn 1000 GJL in a year that will give you $5000 spent. Now let's assume the HE version will only use 850 GJL for the same time frame then your cost is only $4250 creating a savings of $750 for the year. This will now take you a little over 3 years to recoup the $2500 investment.
Now what happens when three months from now, the price spikes up to $12 per GJL? Now the ME furnace is going to use $12,000 while the HE one will only use $10,200 which means it's only going to take 1.38 years to recoup the costs.
I know these numbers aren't "real world" but it shows that the variable cost of natural gas does come into play. The cost to upgrade is a one time, known expense. The cost of your gas over the next few years MAY vary.
And let's face it, what are the chance that the price of natural gas is going to go down?
ok, I give up. You can come up with x number of scenarios where you can recoup your costs in the near future. You can plug in 10000GJ usage and it will accelerate your ROI even faster. As a reality check, this source (http://www.greencalgary.org/images/uploads/File/Energy_GC(1).pdf) puts the average gas use of a single family home in Calgary at 140GJ/year (1444 sq ft). Plugging this into your calc means it will take >7x longer to recoup costs (21years vs 3years). Bumping up the average to 200GJ to account for some houses having high efficiency furnaces already installed still means it will take 5x longer to recoup costs (15years vs 3years).
The point is the ROI on upgrading from mid to high efficiency depends on how long you plan to live in a house for. In my scenario, the break even point was right around 5 years. I don't live in a mansion and I don't live in a hut, so I assume that my situation (+/- a few months) is decently representative of an average home owner.
If you don't care about ROI and are just looking at the fixed cost, then by all means upgrade.
bobafixed
11-13-2009, 08:26 PM
Luckily the point is moot, theyre including a HE furnace :D
They're still unwillng to move the damn furnace though. I wonder if it affects the warranty? Well we have one more chance to try to get them to budge.
They're refusing outright? Not even giving you an outrageous cost to move it?
bobafixed
11-13-2009, 10:03 PM
They're saying its going to drastically affect the efficiency of the furnace and then side tracked us by showing us alternative ways to develop our basement.
autosm
11-13-2009, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by Masked Bandit
Some of the best money you can spend on an upgrade is getting rid of a mid efficiency furnace and going to high efficiency.
Maybe?..... but the furnace company I just had at my house to check over my 10 year old Mid efficiency unit with a fan that was a bit noisey.
The tech told me that the new stuff comming out is crazy expensive to fix if you have problems. One repair can wipe out any savings.He told me they are a bitch to work on.
I was thinking of replacing the whole thing but he talked me out of it and replaced the fan for 450.00$ told me to call him in 2 years for another check over.
Masked Bandit
11-14-2009, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by bobafixed
They're saying its going to drastically affect the efficiency of the furnace and then side tracked us by showing us alternative ways to develop our basement.
There has to be some actual HVAC guys on here that can put this matter to rest?
Darell_n
11-14-2009, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by Masked Bandit
There has to be some actual HVAC guys on here that can put this matter to rest?
Ok. The efficiency of a furnace is dictated by it's design and not by location at all. Either it will run (and at advertised efficiency) or not at all. Up until a few years ago the high efficiency units were a gamble with the high parts costs and unreliability. That being said they have been around now long enough for redesigns to be made and I wouldn't hesitate to purchase one myself. In fact high-efficiency furnaces should be mandatory in new homes. (they will be shortly)
bobafixed
11-14-2009, 09:33 PM
Hey guys,
Looks like they wouldn't have any of it :( We told them we wouldn't mind losing some efficiency for the sake of moving it. They said they would have to get city to re-approve the plans and it would result in a huge fees as well as delaying the home building process.
theken
11-14-2009, 09:43 PM
i moved mine when i built my first house, i said, i dont want it in the middle of the basement floor, cause it is stupid there, also moved my rough in for the plumbing, built with heartland
Then I would say walk... unless you're absolutely in love with the house. I don't think the cost of re approval is really that high, think of what the custom home builders have to do every time they build something!
ExtraSlow
11-15-2009, 10:24 AM
If this company is being such a hassle over a small change like this. Imagine how great they'll be to deal with when they screw something up in the build process. And don't kid yourself, they WILL screw up.
quazimoto
11-15-2009, 11:53 AM
Not to mention if the builder has designers that actually design homes so stupidly it shows something regarding the builder.
Weapon_R
11-15-2009, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by ExtraSlow
If this company is being such a hassle over a small change like this. Imagine how great they'll be to deal with when they screw something up in the build process. And don't kid yourself, they WILL screw up.
This. Good luck getting them to do ANYTHING you want if they won't even consider a furnace change.
topmade
11-15-2009, 12:40 PM
As much as you like the house go to another builder because if you are having this much trouble over this, imagine the fun you'll have when you actually start building.
Or you can also try the same builder in a different community and hope that the sales people actually know what they are doing there. They should be able to sell you what you want even though they are in a different community.
quazimoto
11-15-2009, 06:41 PM
It's all very strange. It doesn't require anything besides an inspection being done if they move the furnace which must be done anyways. Maybe their contractors aren't so smart and they can barely read a set of blueprints so they just dont wanna change them lol.
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