Espresso machine/Grinder

[Khyron]

Any good local places to buy other than the big box stores or Starbucks?

Looking for a decent 80-100 dollar grinder and a basic machine with a milk steamer.

[TYMSMNY]

For around that price, best bet are the big box stores. Williams Sonoma has a Breville conical burr for 130 with decent reviews. Nothing fancy in that price range though.

[snoop101]

This is where we bought ours. Best place around by far.

http://www.espressotec.com/

We bought a Saeco and could not be more happy. The reviews rated it best bang for the buck.

[TYMSMNY]

^ local....

Mazzer Mini.. :D

[Mitsu3000gt]

I've got this one: http://www.espressotec.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=88&idproduct=354

It was recommended to me by some people on Beyond, and is highly recommended/reviewed on the internet. I'm extremely happy with it.

[HondaKid]

Originally posted by Khyron
Any good local places to buy other than the big box stores or Starbucks?

Looking for a decent 80-100 dollar grinder and a basic machine with a milk steamer.

Stay away from SB, I have a SB grinder, works well enough but they have a recall out on it due to some idiots sticking their fingers in the unit. It appears the grinder can start grinding while in the OFF position and some are being caught unaware. Idiots sticking fingers in a plugged in grinder...oh boy.

The real issue to staying away from SB is that the recall means I have to go to Purolator, send off the grinder to the USA (SB pays), wait 6-8 weeks for a replacement sent to my house. And what do I grind my coffee beans while the grinder is in repair? Stupid recall policies from SB, just another reason to avoid the place.

[Khyron]

I was just concerned about shipping + duty/crap and hoping to find that model locally. I'm not too worried about returning it.

For the machine, this seems like a decent unit that's not steam based:

http://www.sears.ca/product/breville-cafe-roma-espresso-maker-with-cups/11802680?ptag=1

And yah I'm fine paying as much for the grinder as the machine.

[HondaKid]

Originally posted by Khyron
I was just concerned about shipping + duty/crap and hoping to find that model locally. I'm not too worried about returning it.

For the machine, this seems like a decent unit that's not steam based:

http://www.sears.ca/product/breville-cafe-roma-espresso-maker-with-cups/11802680?ptag=1

And yah I'm fine paying as much for the grinder as the machine.

You can always return the unit if it sucks, as for the grinder it is as important as the espresso machine so feel OK about the cost.

Now you need to deal with the best beans in town.... where oh where?

[snoop101]

Originally posted by TYMSMNY
^ local....

Mazzer Mini.. :D

It's local enough. :D

I rather buy from a place like that who has a good rep , then a big box store (who is most likely a US company).

[TYMSMNY]

Originally posted by HondaKid




Now you need to deal with the best beans in town.... where oh where?

VERY good question. I'm looking for a local roast shop. Prefer organic beans if avail.

You're right Snoop... BC is close enough. Need to stop by fora visit next time i'm in town.

[Oz-]

http://www.wholelattelove.com/ has quite a bit of selection

For a local roast shop, you can try out Fratello. They are located by the Silver Dollar. Cafe Beano carries their beans for retail, or you can purchase direct from Fratello in 5lb bags (last I checked).

My affinity is to the beans carried by deVille, which is Intelligentsia.

[TYMSMNY]

great thanks. I'll go check it out, I've heard of Fratello before.

As for Art Central place... :thumbsup: agreed!

[phreezee]

Originally posted by Khyron


For the machine, this seems like a decent unit that's not steam based:

http://www.sears.ca/product/breville-cafe-roma-espresso-maker-with-cups/11802680?ptag=1



Do some research on Thermoblock vs Boiler machines and then make a fully informed decision.

[phreezee]

Originally posted by snoop101
This is where we bought ours. Best place around by far.

http://www.espressotec.com/

We bought a Saeco and could not be more happy. The reviews rated it best bang for the buck.

+1 for Saeco

[Oz-]

Originally posted by TYMSMNY
great thanks. I'll go check it out, I've heard of Fratello before.

As for Art Central place... :thumbsup: agreed!

yup. They are about to open their 3rd location in fashion central very very soon. I love the decor and even better they are cheaper then a starbucks.

[TurboMedic]

Geoff, stay away from Thermoblocks......Go with a stainless boiler system....

FWIW, I got my Saeco Via Venezia (available as a starbucks machine too, full metal, good boiler, full manual), and a Breville Conical burr grinder for under $400 with little effort.....The machine was on sale, and the grinder was the best priced conical burr I've ever seen and it works great.....The only thing with the Starbucks Via Venezia is the pressurized portafilter, but its easy to dissassemble to make into a standard portafilter.

[Khyron]

Originally posted by TurboMedic
Geoff, stay away from Thermoblocks......Go with a stainless boiler system....

FWIW, I got my Saeco Via Venezia (available as a starbucks machine too, full metal, good boiler, full manual), and a Breville Conical burr grinder for under $400 with little effort.....The machine was on sale, and the grinder was the best priced conical burr I've ever seen and it works great.....The only thing with the Starbucks Via Venezia is the pressurized portafilter, but its easy to dissassemble to make into a standard portafilter.

K the way I understood it was there's steam based which is the cheap 100 or less units, or the pressure units. When is the step up to the 3rd type? I will google the terms mentioned above but if there's a summary that would help.

Money isn't exactly an object, and I want to buy something decent, but I'm also not a hardcore coffee drinker so I don't want to spend 1k on something I can't tell the difference on.

[Khyron]

If you have any good suggestions for entry level but decent machines, please post em up. I will look up your units Alex.

[TurboMedic]

Originally posted by Khyron


K the way I understood it was there's steam based which is the cheap 100 or less units, or the pressure units. When is the step up to the 3rd type? I will google the terms mentioned above but if there's a summary that would help.

Money isn't exactly an object, and I want to buy something decent, but I'm also not a hardcore coffee drinker so I don't want to spend 1k on something I can't tell the difference on.

Well I assume by steam vs pressure you mean the water? All of them should be 15bar units, including the thermoblocks, possibly VERY cheap espresso machines may be less but 15bar is kinda the standard. Now Thermoblocks heat actively moving water, making them inconsistent in terms of water temperature, and poor in terms of steam production. Boiler units heat cycle the water in an around 50cc boiler, and keeps the water at that temp. Most consumer machines have a single boiler, so that same boiler when changed to steam function super heats the water to create the steam. This can make pulling multiple drinks tougher. The only other way around it is to spend HUGE $$$ to get a dual boiler unit, 1 for brew 1 for steam. Same concept as the single, just dedicated units......I don't think the $$ difference makes it worthwhile unless you frequently make drinks for 3+ people consecutively.


FYI Geoff this is my grinder
http://www.buzzillions.com/reviews/breville-bcg450xl-conical-burr-grinder-reviews

Boiler vs Thermoblock:

http://coffeegeek.com/images/37025/boilerimage.jpg


From Coffeegeek:


Recently I got a very interesting email from a CoffeeGeek.com reader (and she also reads my personal site) regarding confusion about thermoblocks, "thermoblock boilers", "steel lined thermoblock boilers" and some old verbage I wrote about six years ago about thermoblocks in general, where I said:

but the heating element inside is, for the most part, inadequate for the rather complex task of producing espresso and steamed milk. ... Avoid if possible
Thermoblock Diagram

Thermoblocks have come a long way in six years since I wrote that they should be avoided. As an example, there's a machine called the Ascaso Steel Duo, which has a boiler and thermoblock inside - the boiler is used for espresso, the thermoblock for "on demand" steam, and it actually steams quite well for its machine class.

The emailer also was confused over boilers, thermoblocks and some ad copy she read that said its heating device was a "steel lined thermoblock boiler". If it features a 'thermoblock boilers", no matter what their material - steel, aluminum, copper, these things are still thermoblock heating devices. And what exactly is a thermoblock? Well they do range in design, but the few I've seen cut apart look very much like an old home radiator heater, or a liquid cooling device, but in reverse. They are essentially a snaking, folded set of tubes that are wrapped around heating coils or elements. As water passes through these tiny tubes (many of them are barely one or two millimeters in diameter), the heating elements flash heat the water, delivering, in theory and design, water that is at the proper brewing (or steaming) temperature upon exit.

Boilers on the other hand are single large cavity vessels that has a single heating element inside, sometimes a coil that is not unlike a compact florescent lightbulb (in look).

Boilers are mainly preferred for two reasons:

First, they don't reduce pump pressure nearly as much as thermoblocks can - once the pump builds up sufficient pressure inside the boiler, it stays at that level and not much is "leeched" off as the water goes from the boiler to an espresso machine's grouphead. Thermoblocks do leech off pressure from the espresso machine's pump - as water snakes through the thermoblock, pressure is reduced and restricted by the nature of the design. Lately though, companies are designing their machines with this deficiency in mind, so if the thermoblock will leech off about 2BAR of pressure (as a guess) from the water that passes through it, the designers will set up the pump and restrictor valves so they deliver 11BAR or more pressure to the water at the entrance - and when the water exits, its at 9BAR).

Second, boilers provide more built up steam and "head room" for capacity of steam when steaming milk. The problem with boilers is it takes some time to go from brewing temperatures (about 95C) to steaming temperatures (about 130C or so), but once it has a build up, steam is usually pretty good, especially if the heating element stays active, or the boiler size is large enough. With thermoblocks, they can transition from brew to steam temperatures a lot quicker because of the minute amount of water they have to heat up in a given second. The downside is, because the volume of water inside the thermoblock at any given time is very small - maybe 5, 10mls - steaming power would be pretty weak.

At least that's the theory, and in empirical testing six, seven years ago, the practice for the user of an all-thermoblock machine. But lately, I've tested a few machines with thermoblock designs, and they've come a long, long way in steaming ability, so some nut has been cracked by engineers and designers, and thermoblocks today in some machines may not be the bad bogeymen of only five and six years ago.

[Khyron]

There's 2 types of units, steam based (which is garbage and just burns coffee) and pressure. Then there's the 3 types of pressure which you guys brought up which is where I got confused.

Looks like cost-wise a Heat exchanger or dual boiler is unlikely for me.

How long does it take to go from brew to milk steam for your unit Alex? Cause 90% of our drinks will need both. I'm fine with 1 min or so.

[TurboMedic]

I'll have to time it.....less than a minute for sure....I hit the steam button just after I pull the shot, and its ready to go in no time really....

My only real complaint with the machine is the 53mm portafilter, which leaves few options for replacement (typical is 58mm)....And its a "pressurized" portafilter from the factory, which looks good when brewing but its not good for technique....Its easy to mod to a non pressurized though