Beyond's 10 millionth ticket question...

[Kloubek]

Ok... so I get stopped for speeding today. Shitty, but it happens.

Turns out I did not notice, but my registration expired yesterday. (Go figure). So cop comes back and gives me two tickets. One for speeding, one for "167 (c) Failure to produce valid insurance card".

Now, I admit the registration was my own fault. (A letter from the authorities telling me like they usually do would have been spectacular though.) But my insurance actually expires TODAY. It shows it is effective December 1st, 2008 and expires December 1st, 2009.

First, this left me scratching my head because I KNOW I received new insurance cards, and distributed them in my wallet, truck, etc. Turns out that I had left last year's in the truck, and that is what I gave him.

So, in short, I don't think the charge is valid in the first place - looking at the old insurance card. And I have a new one as backup regardless.

What do I do now? Can I go to a police station and get them to remove the charge before it even gets to the courts? Or do I have to take a day off of work... losing $200, and therefore negating any reason to save the money from the $172 fine I would get back in the court?

Also, this charge is ONLY for insurance right? It does not "double" as a no-registration charge... correct?

This is bullshit. The speeding charge I'm totally cool with. But does this guy not know how to read an insurance card properly? Or am *I* wrong in thinking that if it shows it expires today, that it doesn't actually mean I have coverage for today?

Thanks!

[01RedDX]

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[speedog]

Never heard of an insurance policy that ran for a year plus a day, but I suppose it's possible. Also had a cop tell me once that you should only carry the current insurance and registration copies in your vehicle - no old outdated copies should be in there. He said he could have given me a ticket for having multiples in my vehicle, but it was my lucky night - never heard of getting a ticket for having expired insurance/registration papers in a vehicle.

In your case, Kloubek, were both your insurance and registration papers expired cuz you said you noticed your registration was expired and then that the cop gave you a ticket for "Failure to produce valid insurance card" - two different things, no?

[topmade]

Originally posted by Kloubek
Or am *I* wrong in thinking that if it shows it expires today, that it doesn't actually mean I have coverage for today?
BINGO!!

That slip expired the moment the clock hit Dec 1 2009, it does not include Dec 1. The charges seem correct and the cop even let you slide with not giving you an expired plates ticket as well.

[rage2]

Your insurance expired today, so the ticket is valid.

I've gotten one of those multiple registration/insurance tickets when I was in my teens. What a stupid law.

[Kloubek]

ok..... fair enough - I figured the expiry as 12:00 midnight TONIGHT. Guess not.

So.... now that I have found the proper insurance paper, I will need to go to court to prove I had insurance... correct? Or, is the ticket as it says.... "failure to PRODUCE", and I am on the hook for it anyway... even if I can prove I had insurance at the time I was pulled over?

[topmade]

^^ Yeah ticket is failure to produce meaning the cop believed you had valid insurance but just couldn't produce it at the time so you are SOL :D. If the cop didn't think you had insurance you would see a way bigger fine of $2500 or something like that.

[PremiumRSX]

Originally posted by topmade
^^ Yeah ticket is failure to produce meaning the cop believed you had valid insurance but just couldn't produce it at the time so you are SOL :D. If the cop didn't think you had insurance you would see a way bigger fine of $2500 or something like that.

I think this guy is right.

[Mibz]

Originally posted by topmade
^^ Yeah ticket is failure to produce meaning the cop believed you had valid insurance but just couldn't produce it at the time so you are SOL :D. If the cop didn't think you had insurance you would see a way bigger fine of $2500 or something like that. This. Sounds like it's not really worth your time to do anything but pay it.

[Trites]

No offence people but you are all wrong. I don't admit it very often, but I'm an RCMP officer. I hate traffic stuff, but I do know a thing or two...

Your insurance is good until midnight of the expiry date. As far as I have been trained. So if he wrote you fail to produce, on December 1, when your card is dated December 1 and thats what you handed to him...the ticket is not valid. You gave him a valid insurance card. Keep the old card, hopefully you have not thrown it out, and show up in court and show the Crown the card you produced the date of the inicident. After that...it's up to the courts.

Oh...and I should add. You do not lose points if you just decide to pay the fine. Should be $172 I believe.

Good luck

[Mibz]

Originally posted by Trites
Your insurance is good until midnight of the expiry date. With every company I've been with (Nordic, ING, Aviva) it's 12:01am of the date listed, meaning if he got busted at 4:00pm on the date listed, it's been expired for nearly 16 hours.

Keep in mind that it varies based on insurance company, not any sort of Alberta law.

[Kloubek]

I do still have the old card.

I will contact my insurance tomorrow to see if it was valid or not. But even if it was, the system is screwed up. I should be able to just show an officer at a station proof that I had insurance. I should not have to take a day off work, in my opinion. That totally negates the whole idea of trying to save from paying the fine....

[Masked Bandit]

Originally posted by Trites

Your insurance is good until midnight of the expiry date. As far as I have been trained. So if he wrote you fail to produce, on December 1, when your card is dated December 1 and thats what you handed to him...the ticket is not valid. You gave him a valid insurance card. Keep the old card, hopefully you have not thrown it out, and show up in court and show the Crown the card you produced the date of the inicident. After that...it's up to the courts.



Good luck


Sorry boss, you're off by just a touch. All dates in the world of insurance are assumed to be at 12:01 AM unless otherwise specified. So when we start a new policy or make a vehicle change we time stamp everything just in case. As for the OP's card, it expired at 12:01 AM on December 1/09. So during the day of December 1/09, that card was in fact expired.

[Kloubek]

So... I regret that Trites was, in fact, incorrect... and the rest of you WERE correct. The day of expiry is indeed 12:01 of that morning.

So, the cop had every right to give me the ticket. I called the 1234 number, and asked if there was anything I could do. She told me to go to the nearest district station. So I did, but they said they could do nothing.

The cop there did suggest I visit the crown any time before the court date, and they would probably throw it out. Between now and January might be doable without wasting lost wages...

[dexlargo]

You could try a due diligence defence - tell the crown/judge/whoever is willing to listen that you reasonably believed that you were producing a valid insurance card based on the dates on the card. Whether they buy it or not, I can't say, but I think it might work.

And to make sure that you are absolutely clear on this - it doesn't matter if you can prove your car actually was insured on that date. The charge is only about whether you produced a valid insurance card. That's why the fine $172.00 and not $2,875.00.

[jonnycat]

Originally posted by dexlargo
You could try a due diligence defence - tell the crown/judge/whoever is willing to listen that you reasonably believed that you were producing a valid insurance card based on the dates on the card. Whether they buy it or not, I can't say, but I think it might work.

And to make sure that you are absolutely clear on this - it doesn't matter if you can prove your car actually was insured on that date. The charge is only about whether you produced a valid insurance card. That's why the fine $172.00 and not $2,875.00.

This

[msommers]

It works the same way for your driver's license. Before, if you forgot it at home but it was valid and up to date, you could go down to the station later that day and show them to get the ticket ripped up. Now it really doesn't matter since you didn't have it on you.

Can an officer check on their computer in their cruiser all on your info like insurance company, expiry, names of insured drivers etc? If so, what's the point of having it in your car to show if you get pulled over?

Same goes for a driver's license on your person while driving. Yeah it's an official photo ID which is obviously useful in identifying if you're actually the person who should be driving that vehicle but I don't understand why you need it on your person, if say, you had another piece of photo ID.

[Masked Bandit]

Originally posted by msommers


Can an officer check on their computer in their cruiser all on your info like insurance company, expiry, names of insured drivers etc? If so, what's the point of having it in your car to show if you get pulled over?



Nope. Police have no access to insurance information (in Alberta anyway).

[Trites]

my bad fellas...i apparently was taught wrong. good to know!

good thing i dont write tickets. :D

*edit* just reviewed some things for own learning...its registration that is good until midnight of the expiry date. My bad. This is why I bust doors and arrest drug dealers, not pull over people for stupid traffic violations.

Thanks for correcting me guys

[Masked Bandit]

Originally posted by Trites
my bad fellas...i apparently was taught wrong. good to know!

good thing i dont write tickets. :D

*edit* just reviewed some things for own learning...its registration that is good until midnight of the expiry date. My bad. This is why I bust doors and arrest drug dealers, not pull over people for stupid traffic violations.

Thanks for correcting me guys

I wonder why the registration runs different rules? Weird.

[Tracer2008]

Originally posted by Kloubek
Ok... so I get stopped for speeding today. Shitty, but it happens.

What do I do now? Can I go to a police station and get them to remove the charge before it even gets to the courts? Or do I have to take a day off of work... losing $200, and therefore negating any reason to save the money from the $172 fine I would get back in the court?


Thanks!

Ever heard of vacation days? Just wondering lol :dunno:

[max_boost]

I'm sure he could of wrote up another ticket for the registration right? but he wrote one for the insurance slip instead?

Looks like you just need to pay up.