Educational Malpractice

[Isaiah]

Based on the demographic membership of the forum, I think there may be many members with valid opinions and experiences to share. Please try to keep the comments constructive and keep the thread on track.

[Long read; Coles notes at bottom]

The Theory
(1) Academic institutions are not fulfilling the fiduciary duty to their students by failing to provide an objective, unbiased 3rd party to review student appeals.

(2) As a consequence to (1), students have no alternative than to appeal their grades to the department chair, or upon failure of that appeal, to take it to the dean of the institution.

(3) Departmental chairpersons and all others involved in the academic review process are members of the same faculty as the instructor/professor who initially graded the work, thereby creating a bias.

(4) Students lack an independent advocacy group with the single imperative of reviewing, forwarding, and judging grade reviews.


Background
After a 10 year absence from school, I decided to return to Calgary and finally earn a B.Comm degree which I had started in the mid '90s. I was residing in Ontario at the time and held a corporate job with one of the big four telecommunications companies. I had a stable career and was making a great living.

I returned to Calgary where I learned that my initial credits had expired and my initial 2 years had been forfeited so I would have to start over. I reluctantly accepted that and began, for the second time, my B.Comm degree.

Between my first and second academic stints, I held several posts with companies in different industries. In addition to my job in wireless telco, I have held various management and regional management positions in hospitality and retail, and have owned several businesses. I currently operate an import/wholesale business which I run while attending school full time.

The purpose of providing some background info is not to make any narcissistic claims (translate: I get my clothes tailored...I drive ____, my lunches cost ____...), it is to provide some context to my observations. In other words, I think that someone in their thirties, with fifteen years of experience in several different fields has a more objective view of an academic setting than a first year college or university student who just graduated from high school.


Experiences
I will list only a few experiences although I have observed countless more during my tenure at my current institution. Some experiences are personal, others are not but were observed as they occurred to classmates.

(i) The Self-Righteous Hypocrite
=> Professor dictates (on course syllabus) that work must follow a certain criteria, in this case the "7 Cs of Technical Writing"
=> The syllabus itself is not written in accordance with the professor's own "7 Cs"
=> Term project (5 member group project) is handed in 13 minutes late and receives grade of 0
=> Grade is appealed as course syllabus was very unclear with no further information provided by instructor upon request
=> Appeal denied by department chair
=> Consequently, 3 students fail the class and 2 C students end up with A’s
=> The students appeal to the department chair and (not surprisingly) the appeal is denied

(ii) The Incompetent Limey
=> Professor incoherently rambles during lectures and spends every class talking about his experiences with little if any tie-in to course content
=> No direction is given with respect to exams and the professor advises (after the exam) that he has graded the exams based on British standards (he’s a British expat)
=> He advises that the Canadian system is too easy on students and that his grading practices reflect what British students would receive for equivalent work
=> Exam and class average hover around the 55% range
=> Based on his admitted grading practices, several students appeal their grade but their appeals are denied

(iii) The Clueless Spaniard
=> Spanish instructor issues between 2-3 hours of homework per night
=> Course instruction is barely based on textbook material with the instructor relying instead on handouts (presumably to encourage attentance)
=> Exams are much too long with only 1 or 2 students (native speakers) finishing on time, and the rest of the class following the instructor around for up to 20 minutes after exams in search of an empty classroom to finish writing the exam. Once a classroom is located, it takes an average of 25-30 minutes for remaining students to finish the exam
=> A quarter of the students drop the class and another half-dozen students change their major as they consider the course too difficult and are discouraged from further pursuing Spanish


Conclusion
In all cases, grade appeals have been filed by the students and denied by the chair. Notice that in all cases there are groups of students being affected by the substandard instruction.

There is no recourse for the students in question beyond the appeals already submitted. There is a much bigger issue than individual students receiving bad grades; there is a systemic issue in my opinion as students are in some cases financially unable to pay to retake the classes, and in worse case scenarios the students are losing thousands of dollars in scholarships and bursaries. In some cases, affected students have been unable to apply to a university of their choice as a consequence.

The professors in question? Still teaching with no effect to compensation and no disciplinary action taken.


Coles Notes
Poor teaching practices by professors are adversely affecting students’ academic standings and there lacks a credible, independent system through which formal appeals can be filed. Student esteem is being negatively affected as a result and the institutions in question do not recognize the problem.

Additionally, no action is being taken against the teachers, which is propagating the problem as they continue their poor practices.

Thoughts/comments? Please keep them respectful and relevant.

[CUG]

Well, you've got my blood boiling. You're at the UofC?

[Isaiah]

Originally posted by CUG
Well, you've got my blood boiling. You're at the UofC?
MRU

[ChappedLips]

The best you can really do at MRU is give them a poor review, I had one bad prof last term and everyone gave him a bad review and this term he isn't teaching that class anymore.

Doesn't really help you but it saves the other students.

[mx73someday]

Sorry to hear this. It's for things like this I'm reluctant to sink $30,000+ on school. How long have you been going for?

[nonlinear]

i've been teaching post-secondary since 2001. At the end of the day, grades really don't matter... once you work with someone a bit, it's easy to tell how capable they are. If it was up to me I would do away with them altogether. In all seriousness, in every class of, say, 20 students, you have 2 or 3 who really get it, 16-14 who are middle of the road, and 2 or 3 who just don't get it or don't care.

Of course they all want an A, but if grades are to mean anything at all, then the 2-3 good ones should get an A, 16-14 should get a C, and 2-3 should fail. That said, grade inflation is a MAJOR problem, and grades in my classes average about a B. What this means is that the grading system has become irrelevant. Grades no longer mean anything, and that's why it's difficult to get really good, high-paying jobs right out of Univ. Employers realize this and thus the good jobs require "5 years experience" or whatever, over which time you'll be 'graded' by your boss and all of that will go in your reference letters :dunno: and trust me, reference letters are quite frank.

EDIT: Oh, and these days we have a lot of students who feel that they are paying for courses and thus deserve high marks just because of that. sorry kids. you have to keep in mind what grades are intended to do in the first palce. Grades "grade" you. :dunno:

[Isaiah]

Nonlinear: I understand your point and you give an interesting perspective from the instructors' point of view. Having said that, my opinion is that instructors should want all of the students to "really get it."

Unfortunately, many instructors don't care or put their own interests ahead of those of their students. I can tell you right now that I am one of the ones who do [i]really get it[i/] yet I've had that battle with several profs whose arbitrary grading practices don't follow any semblance of logic.

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about a calculus prof who marks a question wrong because the answer is wrong. I'm talking about a Business Communications instructor who indiscriminately dishes out 0s on term projects that are handed in 13 minutes late because she's out to prove something. I can't imagine any type of academic merit to that course of action. That to me illustrates an instructor with an agenda other than her students' best interests. I can see a penalty of 5 or 10% per day or something of the sort but a 0 for 13 minutes? Come on now.

[CUG]

Originally posted by CUG
Well, you've got my blood boiling. You're at the UofC? Fuck. Registered in their BSci program (winter start) :\

[97'Scort]

Originally posted by Isaiah
I can see a penalty of 5 or 10% per day or something of the sort but a 0 for 13 minutes? Come on now.
While I can feel your pain, late is late. There is no academic policy saying that the prof has to make allowances for late stuff. They can if they want, but ultimately they can hand you a zero for anything over the deadline. Can you honestly say you didn't leave a bunch of it to the last minute and had to crunch it right at the end?

One of my profs has a 50% deduction for every day late, including weekends, stuff is due on Friday before 3 pm. So if you're late, but get it to him before he leaves at 5, then you get 50% max. Anything over that, you're getting a zero. It's not unfair, it's a deadline.

What I do agree with is the lack of instructor accountability. If an entire class' grade is in the tank, then it should statistically point to the instructor as the weak link. Hell, I have three this semester that just taught word-for-word out of the text, and another that made us buy a $200 controls text and then told us after the return period that we weren't going to use it and he wasn't going to use it next year, so we can't sell it.

[2Valve0]

So you decided to get a Bcomm at MRC.....may I ask why in the hell when UofC is down the road?

But I totally agree there are some stupid profs, your experience seems to be worse then any I have heard? Bad luck maybe.
Everyone I know says they havn't had homework at MRC all semester and they are getting A''s and B's

[Masked Bandit]

Originally posted by Isaiah

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about a calculus prof who marks a question wrong because the answer is wrong. I'm talking about a Business Communications instructor who indiscriminately dishes out 0s on term projects that are handed in 13 minutes late because she's out to prove something. I can't imagine any type of academic merit to that course of action. That to me illustrates an instructor with an agenda other than her students' best interests. I can see a penalty of 5 or 10% per day or something of the sort but a 0 for 13 minutes? Come on now.

I do honestly agree with the bulk of what you are saying but (as you should know by your experience in the world of business), late is late. If the tendered bids for a $25,000,000 pedestrian bridge in Calgary close at 12:00 noon, showing up at 12:13 is going to leave you looking for a new job.

[mazdavirgin]

At the end of the day it's a non issue. Everyone in the class is in the same boat and typically everyone is being placed on the bell curve. All you have to do is ride the curve. It doesn't matter if you have shit marks if the class average is far lower...

[97'Scort]

Originally posted by mazdavirgin
At the end of the day it's a non issue. Everyone in the class is in the same boat and typically everyone is being placed on the bell curve. All you have to do is ride the curve. It doesn't matter if you have shit marks if the class average is far lower...
I haven't seen a bell curve in any class I've ever been in. Not everybody gets to ride the wave.

[Isaiah]

Originally posted by 97'Scort

While I can feel your pain, late is late. There is no academic policy saying that the prof has to make allowances for late stuff. They can if they want, but ultimately they can hand you a zero for anything over the deadline. Can you honestly say you didn't leave a bunch of it to the last minute and had to crunch it right at the end?
I understand that late is late and you make a valid point. I get it, but I just don't see the merit to it. Is it a significant enough point that it's worth failing 3 students over and costing two others thousands of dollars?

As far as it being left to the last minute, that was not the case. It was an issue of the person responsible for handing it in not getting it to the prof on time, not an issue of procrastination.

Originally posted by 2Valve0
So you decided to get a Bcomm at MRC.....may I ask why in the hell when UofC is down the road?

But I totally agree there are some stupid profs, your experience seems to be worse then any I have heard? Bad luck maybe.
Everyone I know says they havn't had homework at MRC all semester and they are getting A''s and B's
I started the Bcomm degree with the intention of transferring to U of C in the third year. It turned out that MRC was transitioning to MRU the following year and offering a BBA which was relatively equivalent to the Bcomm so I decided to stay.

I definitely think MRU is a good school in many aspects and I don't think that the issues I've raised are exclusive to that institution. I think these are widespread problems that need to be addressed by all post-secondary institutions unless there is some form of student advocacy at other schools that I'm not aware of.

Originally posted by Masked Bandit

I do honestly agree with the bulk of what you are saying but (as you should know by your experience in the world of business), late is late. If the tendered bids for a $25,000,000 pedestrian bridge in Calgary close at 12:00 noon, showing up at 12:13 is going to leave you looking for a new job.
You're right about the pedestrian bridge and in fact she used that exact example (tendering a bid for a construction project). To reiterate, I understand conceptually what she is trying to prove but I think it's definitely overkill.

The fact is, this wasn't a bid for a $25,000,000 project and in most of our careers, an infinite minority of us will actually be faced with such a time critical contract. In fact, I think it's fairly safe to assume that none of the group members who received the 0 will ever be in that position.

What I can tell you, from my business experience, is that I have sat in boardrooms, conference rooms, and convention halls on numerous occasions waiting for meetings to begin and for some unforeseen reason, a critical person or document was missing and the meetings were delayed anywhere from 10 minutes to 2 hours. In none of those instances did anyone die as a result of the delay, nor were any million dollar contracts lost, or did anything explode. Everyone just waited patiently and that was that.

[Xtrema]

1st few years of undergrad is a bit strict. Remember, while it makes no sense in real life, they want to keep their academic integrity if it means being an ass.

And there will be always profs that goes on power trips and if you go over his head, he'll punish you even more. This is even more prevalent on grad programs where he/she got you by the balls.

You just need to play along, right or wrong. That to me is the only thing you'll really learn @ school.

[Isaiah]

Originally posted by Xtrema
1st few years of undergrad is a bit strict. Remember, while it makes no sense in real life, they want to keep their academic integrity if it means being an ass.

You just need to play along, right or wrong. That to me is the only thing you'll really learn @ school.
This is exactly the problem. Just 'playing along' is teaching students exactly the wrong things. To be honest, I actually think it's unethical.

[mushi_mushi]

Originally posted by Isaiah



(ii) The Incompetent Limey
=> Professor incoherently rambles during lectures and spends every class talking about his experiences with little if any tie-in to course content
=> No direction is given with respect to exams and the professor advises (after the exam) that he has graded the exams based on British standards (he’s a British expat)
=> He advises that the Canadian system is too easy on students and that his grading practices reflect what British students would receive for equivalent work
=> Exam and class average hover around the 55% range
=> Based on his admitted grading practices, several students appeal their grade but their appeals are denied

[/B]

I see we have a mutual friend: http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=1259155

Its scary that based on some of your short descriptors I know exactly who you are talking about. Unfortunately I have had similar experiences. Overall I like MRU, just like any other post secondary institution they have their share of good teachers, but once in a while you get professors that should have potentially chosen other career paths as teaching is not something they do well.

Needless to say despite some horrible teachers I think its the students responsibility to pass the class. It could be the case that you have to work twice as hard as your friend in a different section, just to achieve the same grade, but its doable and I think everyone at the post secondary level has had to deal with something similar at one point or another.

Personally if you think you deserve the higher grade I would fight for it. I have had the misfortune of failing a couple of classes, in most of the cases I acknowledged I did something wrong and didnt dispute the final grade as I got what I think I deserved. There have been one or two instances when I thought I was being treated unfairly and fought tooth and nail to appeal my grades.

My advice to avoid these uncomfortable situations is to do your due diligence, read up on your prof's on sites like rate my professor to see what your getting yourself into. If I see a prof has a poor peer reviews I try to avoid that person like the plague. I hope some of these bad experiences dont thwart you from reaching your full potential and finishing your degree.

[dexlargo]

I have no problem with giving a zero for 13 minutes late so long as this has been made clear to the students by putting it on the course syllabus/outline. In a group project though, I'm surprised the professor was this heavy handed because 4 students may get a zero because of one group member's incompetence whose duty it is to hand in the assembled project. Was this handed in online by any chance? Was it just submitted as one giant project, or did each member submit their portions individually?

As for Spanish - language courses are intense. In my experience, most are done in a similar way. I took intro Spanish at UofC and it was 2 hours a day, every day of the week. I had trouble keeping the pace of the course due to my maturity level at the time, and I deserved the bad mark that I got.

As an aside - I also went back to school after many years to finish my undergrad degree and then take an after degree. It was tough in some ways - e.g. trying to study with a wife and baby at home, but ridiculously easy in other ways:

Now you're competing with kids who are at the entry level maturity level. Simply doing exactly what the professor asks of you and no more will make you look like a genius compared to the kids who blow off class because of their hangover or are too busy texting to pay attention in class. At least, that was my experience.

Stick with it and the grades will come.

[Tomaz]

Good to know seeing i will be entering B of B next year. It's unfortunate that you have suffered because of someone's incompetence. This is also a very realistic way of training you for the real world and high demand jobs. Years down the road you might just say to yourself "I can meet deadlines and there is no excuse for tardiness. I have learned the importance of meeting my obligations."

I suggest next time you take the responcability on yourself

Welcome to the life of hard knocks. I wish you success in the future of your education! :)

[Kartelli]

Originally posted by Isaiah



You're right about the pedestrian bridge and in fact she used that exact example (tendering a bid for a construction project). To reiterate, I understand conceptually what she is trying to prove but I think it's definitely overkill.

The fact is, this wasn't a bid for a $25,000,000 project and in most of our careers, an infinite minority of us will actually be faced with such a time critical contract. In fact, I think it's fairly safe to assume that none of the group members who received the 0 will ever be in that position.

What I can tell you, from my business experience, is that I have sat in boardrooms, conference rooms, and convention halls on numerous occasions waiting for meetings to begin and for some unforeseen reason, a critical person or document was missing and the meetings were delayed anywhere from 10 minutes to 2 hours. In none of those instances did anyone die as a result of the delay, nor were any million dollar contracts lost, or did anything explode. Everyone just waited patiently and that was that.

I totally agree with this statement, you will have the hardasses that try to grenade you for "late appearances" but unfortunately life loves to throw curveballs that set everyone back. At the end of the day nobody dies over it, and usually 2-3 hrs later most people don't even remember. Out of 100 meetings, 1 or 2 individuals may remember a "late" arrival of some sort and try to 1 up you because they feel like going on a power trip...

Giving 0's on assignments/labs/reports in engineering was extremely common for being 5 minutes late. Do I agree with it... absolutely not. 4 years after undergrad I felt I spent 30+ thousand on a piece of paper. Hands down the experience gained in the work force crushed any gains by the university degree.

[H4LFY2nR]

I'm with the hard asses on this one, late is late.


The majority of the courses I had through uni had hard deadlines for assignments. If you didn't have it in the drop box, office, email, etc by the due date you got zero. Plain and simple. And there were times when someone would be trying to delay the TA or prof just to give others (me included) an extra 30 seconds to finish and dive roll that shit into the box! I think you're lucky to get to finish your exams after the time allotted. I found that was the point, that if you don't know exactly what your doing and are competent doing it fast, you won't finish the test and you get a shitty grade compared to the people who do know exactly what they're doing.


And in some cases real life is exactly like that. I've had teleconference meetings with clients, and their busy managers already know they can't fit everything they need to talk about into the hour timeslot they booked for the meeting and they get all pissy about wasting time with formalities let alone being late. Or in project management, late is late and your company is liable to get bent over if it hasn't delivered on time. It is important to learn the lesson they're trying to teach you, whether it's not to waste other people's time or dealing with grumpy people...


I can somewhat sympathize with having a shitty prof, but for the most part I say deal with it. Everyone feels so entitled to have their education THEIR WAY, cause THEY'RE PAYING FOR IT. If your prof can't speak English or has useless teaching plans, find alternate resources! Use your textbook, ask the prof for suggested problems and do them with a study group or the TA's. The way I see it, you are paying to take the final exams that get you that little piece of paper that says you have proven that you can work harder, and deal with shittier situations than the majority of the people who don't have that piece of paper.

[nonlinear]

I have a "strict" late policy in my classes, however when it comes down to it I never actually enforce it, because late students are generally frantic and turn in poor work anyhow... why take off additional marks when their work already reflects the fact that it's late?

[eljefe]

Personally as an employer I sit here and read the arguements the OP makes for why he should not being given a zero on an assignment and cringe. Instead of learning from his own screw up, and it is no ones screw up other than the OP's for not handing it in on time, period. The OP should take responsibility, show he has learned from his screw up and move on.

I read this and just know that this person would be that employee that blames everyone else for his/her mistakes, never takes responsibility for anything, calls the labout board for being 1 minute shorted on a break, the safety board for their being 2 granules less of salt on the snow/ice in the parking lot during winter etc.

The lesson that should have been learned from this eludes you

[kenny]

I'm assuming that the due dates for the group assignment was listed on the course outline. You said it was "unclear" but was your group the only group to hand it in late?

In my experiences, most students handed in group assignments weeks in advance since you have all year to work on it.

[Isaiah]

Originally posted by eljefe
Personally as an employer I sit here and read the arguements the OP makes for why he should not being given a zero on an assignment and cringe. Instead of learning from his own screw up, and it is no ones screw up other than the OP's for not handing it in on time, period. The OP should take responsibility, show he has learned from his screw up and move on.

I read this and just know that this person would be that employee that blames everyone else for his/her mistakes, never takes responsibility for anything, calls the labout board for being 1 minute shorted on a break, the safety board for their being 2 granules less of salt on the snow/ice in the parking lot during winter etc.

The lesson that should have been learned from this eludes you
You seem to have missed the part about it being a group project. 4 students, including myself, who completed their portions of the project were penalized for the actions of a fifth student.

I too am an employer and, like anywhere else in life, there are the hardasses who won't cut their employees a break, and there are the more accommodating individuals who sympathize with the staff. You may think I'm missing the point, but I feel that it's you who is not getting it. Chalk it up to different management styles and call it a day.

[2Valve0]

I still don't understand how this happened at MRC...clown university I did not think gave 0's. I kid, I kid...kinda...

But in the end it is completely your fault OP. You can't blame it on another member. When I have a group project I HAND IT IN to make sure it isn't late and some alcoholic retard "forgot" about it.
If this was the class policy you should have been on top of it for sure. I'm just wondering which company you worked for before?


If you sat in boardrooms for up to 2 hours waiting for something or someone...someone would have been getting fired unless it is a retarded company with no operations management experience
so I really call B.S. on that experience you had.

Late is Late is Late.

[Thomas Gabriel]

I thought this thread was going to be about the socialist teachings of K-12.

[Masked Bandit]

Originally posted by Thomas Gabriel
I thought this thread was going to be about the socialist teachings of K-12.


That's a whole other conversation.

[eljefe]

Originally posted by eljefe

I read this and just know that this person would be that employee that blames everyone else for his/her mistakes, never takes responsibility for anything



Originally posted by Isaiah

You seem to have missed the part about it being a group project. 4 students, including myself, who completed their portions of the project were penalized for the actions of a fifth student.





Thank you- you have made my point for me.


Originally posted by eljefe

The lesson that should have been learned from this still eludes you

[nonlinear]

i dunno about OP, but whenever I had group projects, I would take control and do all the work to ensure that we got an A :bigpimp:

maybe you need to start doing that???

[TimeAttack]

Originally posted by Thomas Gabriel
I thought this thread was going to be about the socialist teachings of K-12.

X2

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by nonlinear
i dunno about OP, but whenever I had group projects, I would take control and do all the work to ensure that we got an A :bigpimp:

maybe you need to start doing that???

The problem is it that your team members will do nothing because either a) they don't get their input or feel like they don't get their input OR b) they know you'll do it for them because you care.

So many school project ends in failures because of slackers.

[Stephen81]

I think people are getting too caught up with the OP's concern about the group project and missing one of the original issues - the lack of a non-biased appeals process at post-secondary...which I think is a worthwhile concern.

[Mckenzie]

I have 0 sympathy on the late projects as many of my prof's were adimant about tardiness, which is a rare yet valuable skill in this world. During my CA articling program, the in class sessions were so strict on late's you could fail out of the module for being late. I personally never saw anyone late in my cohorts and was frightened into always being on time.

I did appeal a grade officially in a history class and after a lot of fighting and time, ended up getting my mark changed. Long story short, the prof advised me on a term paper all the way from my thesis through to my end result, then gave me a C-. My appeal was basically this- if students are supposed to rely on guidance from teachers, then destroy them on the marking, how are they ever supposed to learn or respect their expertise? My appeal went through another prof who did not feel the paper was worth changing the mark. When I got the results of the appeal back, I spoke with the dean of the history department and plead my case, adding that this one paper single handedly destroyed my chances at a scholarship. He told me I should have been a lawyer and agreed to change the mark.

In the end, yes there is no independence in the appears process, but under the right circumstances, grades can be changed. Use the pathos appeal and with the right logos and demonstration of ethos, I guarantee you will succeed (that was my only formal appeal...many others were succesful as well...probably over 8 during my 4 years there).

Good luck.

[GTS4tw]

Originally posted by eljefe
Personally as an employer I sit here and read the arguements the OP makes for why he should not being given a zero on an assignment and cringe. Instead of learning from his own screw up, and it is no ones screw up other than the OP's for not handing it in on time, period. The OP should take responsibility, show he has learned from his screw up and move on.

I read this and just know that this person would be that employee that blames everyone else for his/her mistakes, never takes responsibility for anything, calls the labout board for being 1 minute shorted on a break, the safety board for their being 2 granules less of salt on the snow/ice in the parking lot during winter etc.

The lesson that should have been learned from this eludes you

I agree 100% I am no longer an employer but I was until recently and I couldn't find anyone with personal accountability, even in his response to you he blames someone else. It seems to be the way society is going, and it is usually encouraged by post-secondary institutions, its nice to see that this one actually enforces its requirements to the same degree that people should in the "real world". I recently lost a bid on a project due to one company being given an "extension" on the bid process, and it disillusioned me to the point where I have gone into a different industry. I think we should all have to follow the same rules, NO MATTER WHAT. Its all part of the "Pussification of Canada"

[H4LFY2nR]

Originally posted by stephen_haxton
I think people are getting too caught up with the OP's concern about the group project and missing one of the original issues - the lack of a non-biased appeals process at post-secondary...which I think is a worthwhile concern.

It's just too easy to get caught up in the fact that people, myself included, have a need to keep post-secondary miserable. Other students' suffering is the most tangible thing that justifies why we were special enough to make it through haha :D


The appeals process does suck in any post-secondary institution, but if you keep appealing after you're rejected by the prof once, you're probably just a whiner. I've gone to department heads and deans about a professor before (non-academic issues), and sadly, universities are cultish in their protection of each other. It is IMPOSSIBLE to get someone reprimanded by uni administration. You just have to deal with it.


And nonlinear is right, you can't trust other random people to get their shit done when it's your ass on the line. I used to always ask for everyone's stuff at least a day in advance for group projects so I could inevitably rewrite most of their stuff, pull an all-nighter, and have the report printed and bound in the morning and dropped off before the deadline. That's another good lesson they may or may not be intentionally teaching, that trust is important in working relationships, and you have to plan ahead for the people who might let you down. If it's a group project, you win together and you loose together...

[GTS4tw]

Originally posted by Isaiah

You seem to have missed the part about it being a group project. 4 students, including myself, who completed their portions of the project were penalized for the actions of a fifth student.

I too am an employer and, like anywhere else in life, there are the hardasses who won't cut their employees a break, and there are the more accommodating individuals who sympathize with the staff. You may think I'm missing the point, but I feel that it's you who is not getting it. Chalk it up to different management styles and call it a day.

Its one thing to sympathize, its a whole different kettle of fish if you are late on a bid or major project/presentation in the real world. Then you get fired. Period.

[G-Suede]

Originally posted by GTS4tw


Its one thing to sympathize, its a whole different kettle of fish if you are late on a bid or major project/presentation in the real world. Then you get fired. Period.

Oh please. Go review 99% of the EPC's or consulting firms out there and get a taste of reality. It seems that none them deliver on time, or on budget, ever, and they still land big jobs. I'm not saying it's right because it sucks to deal with, but don't quote "the real world" when it's just as bad.

[GTS4tw]

Originally posted by G-Suede


Oh please. Go review 99% of the EPC's or consulting firms out there and get a taste of reality. It seems that none them deliver on time, or on budget, ever, and they still land big jobs. I'm not saying it's right because it sucks to deal with, but don't quote "the real world" when it's just as bad.

That is sad that you have had to deal with such blatant lack of professionalism, however my point still stands, as in hundreds of bids on a municipal, provincial, and federal government level I have only experienced this a couple of times, usually related to nepotism. The budget thing is a whole other story though, and I agree with you there.

[ExtraSlow]

I had a group project with a retard that constantly handed in his material late to the group. Myself, and the rest of the responsible group members recognised this, and did his section for him.
We got the project in on time, we got a good grade, and we were responsible for that outcome.
is it "fair"? Maybe not, but who the fuck cares, we got what we deserved.

I have zero sympathy for anyone who can't figure out the deadline for a project until after it's due, and then complains that they got marks deducted for being late.
Learn some orgainizational skills and you wwon't have this happen to you in the future.

[Isaiah]

Thanks everyone for the comments. I expected to have both positive and negative feedback and I respect and value both.

To be clear, I'm not looking for sympathy as my post was meant as a social commentary in order to open a discussion. If anyone has further comments, they too are welcome.

[kaput]

.

[H4LFY2nR]

Originally posted by Isaiah
Thanks everyone for the comments. I expected to have both positive and negative feedback and I respect and value both.

To be clear, I'm not looking for sympathy as my post was meant as a social commentary in order to open a discussion. If anyone has further comments, they too are welcome.

That's sucks you got burned, but have you and your group discussed the member who wasn't pulling his weight with the prof? It might be kinda late now, but in a similar situation try to go to the prof before the deadline, as soon as you know a group member is screwing you over, and explain the situation. You're much more likely to get an extension on your project, while the one douche gets zero.

I had a guy in a lab group who didn't perform the experiments or write any of the reports once. The first time we did the experiment without him and wrote his sections. The second time he fully expected us to cover for him again, so we went straight to the prof and had him removed from our group and he got zero for both reports (he didn't sign the first report so we had proof he never touched it). Sometimes you gotta throw someone under a well-deserved bus.