Failing to yield to a Pedestrian in a Crosswalk!

[Frustrated888]

I have a question, pertaining to this violation. I'll copy the actual definitions into the post so you can seem them yourself. The situation is this, I was making a left hand turn, the light goes green and I proceed. I didnt see that there was a pedestrian (who was also a cop) because he was in my blind spot (which was due to the joint where the driver side window and the windshield connect). It was also snowing and very overcast, so poor visibility to say the least. I am sure most, if not all, have experienced something like this. Anyways, when the person comes into view I immediately stop to let them pass. I dont go around or swerve or anything, simply stop. The cop is holding out his hand, waves me to the side and gives me a $575 ticket and 4 demarits for apparently failing to yield to a pedestrian in a cross walk, despite not having entered/crossed/impeded the crosswalk in any way. I immediately went to the police station, which was actually across the street, to talk to them because the cop was on a complete power trip (and though i know everyone says it, i was not disrespectful to him at all, he just kept repeating, ive been hit by a car before) The officer i talked to told me to fight it because i has not actually passed through the crosswalk. What are your thoughts on this? Ideally, I wish I would have seen him before i even proceeded to go, but this is how it happened so this is what i have to deal with. Do you think based on the definitions below I was actually in the wrong in the way the officer said I am?

Alberta Traffic Safety Act, Use of Highway and Rules of the Road Regulation AR304/2002

Definitions:

Crosswalk -
i) the part of a roadway at an intersection included within the connection of the lateral line of the sidewalks on opposite sides of the highway measured from the curb or, in the absence of curbs, from the edges of the roadway, or

ii) any part of a roadway at an intersection or elsewhere distinctly indicated for pedestrian crossing by signes or by lines or other markings on the road surface

Pedestrian -
i) a person on foot, or

ii) a person in or on a mobility aid, and includes those persons designated by regulation as a pedestrian

Yielding to pedestrians

S 41(1)
A person driving a vehicle shall yield the right of way to a pedestrian crossing the roadway within a crosswalk

Please let me know, if you have any experience with this, sharing it would be amazing! Thanks

[Kloubek]

Sounds like a B.S. ticket to me. I'm guessing you were a little closer to the cop than you let on, and he gave you the ticket because you scared the crap out of him. But still, if you never entered the crosswalk then it seems like BS.

[LUDELVR]

It's simple. You allowed him to cross and didn't enter the crosswalk. You allowed him to enter the crosswalk and did not obstruct his path to get to the other side, hence, you did not fail to yield. End of story. I've been to court heaps of times and from the sounds of it, you should have no problems winning this case. It's just a matter of taking time off of school/work and losing pay over it.

On a different note, why did he cop cross the road?

To give frustrated888 a 575 dollar ticket and take 4 demerits from his license! :rofl:

Just kidding mate, but seriously, you should have no probs since you didn't enter the crosswalk or obstruct his path.

[300zxfairlday]

Originally posted by LUDELVR


On a different note, why did he cop cross the road?

To give frustrated888 a 575 dollar ticket and take 4 demerits from his license! :rofl:



FTW:clap: :rofl:

[Pollywog]

Originally posted by Kloubek
he gave you the ticket because you scared the crap out of him.

That was my first guess. BS ticket imo.

[King Banana]

The ideal thing to do would have been get out of the car and stop someone else in traffic and ask them to be a whiteness to you not entering the crosswalk.

But if you would have done something like this to use you basic right as a citizen he would have charged you with impeding the flow of traffic.

Basically win win for the cop, that's really the reason he is a cop to begin with.

[black13]

Originally posted by LUDELVR
On a different note, why did the cop cross the road?

To give frustrated888 a 575 dollar ticket and take 4 demerits from his license! :rofl:

:rofl:

[Xtrema]

BS, I can understand a ticket for blowing past the crosswalk with people in it. But stopping for people and still get a ticket, that's bull.

[JustinGTP]

BS. Ridiculous.

[CMW403]

you should have gotten a witness, iv got a feeling the power trip doesn't end here.

[King Banana]

Originally posted by CMW403
you should have gotten a witness, iv got a feeling the power trip doesn't end here.

Super hard to get a whiteness in a situation like this.
Also, if you think stopping too close to a crosswalk makes a cop mad, just wait until you try to undermine their authority by attempting to protect your basic citizen rights.

[Mibz]

Originally posted by King Banana
Super hard to get a whiteness
Originally posted by King Banana
ask them to be a whiteness Racist fuck.

[ipeefreely]

Originally posted by Mibz
Racist fuck.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

He is yellow after all....... :rofl:

[LUDELVR]

Originally posted by ipeefreely



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

He is yellow after all....... :rofl:


On another note, Why did frustrated888 cross the road?

He wanted to cross the "white" line! :rofl:

[Joel_D]

`1

[King Banana]

Spelling fail :(

Witness!
I learned proper spelling for a word today. It's a good thing I have no credibility on these forums, otherwise I would have lost it there.

I defeated the spell check and no one has invented a racism check yet.:(

[revelations]

Was the constable a part of a "crosswalk awareness campaign" (where they pose as pedestrians) or was it just some cop walking from the station to Tims?

[Frustrated888]

There is actually a Tims one block down from where I got the ticket lol He was in uniform. Also, when he put out his hand and I stopped I looked up at the pedestrian sign to see if it said walk or dont walk and it said don't walk. It wasn't flashing, so I take it that it never did say walk, because only a few seconds had gone by since the light turned green. But I really only did see it for a second before my attention went back to the cop because he was waving me through to pull me over. Im glad I am not the only won who thinks this is bogus.

[LUDELVR]

Originally posted by Frustrated888
There is actually a Tims one block down from where I got the ticket lol He was in uniform. Also, when he put out his hand and I stopped I looked up at the pedestrian sign to see if it said walk or dont walk and it said don't walk. It wasn't flashing, so I take it that it never did say walk, because only a few seconds had gone by since the light turned green. But I really only did see it for a second before my attention went back to the cop because he was waving me through to pull me over. Im glad I am not the only won who thinks this is bogus.

If you are going to take this to court, the first thing you should do is make notes about absolutely everything you can, so that includes everything you have stated in your original post as well as other things such as the stuff you just mentioned here. Also include the traffic in both directions, the officer's comments, time of day, etc.

Date and sign the sheet of paper because this is what you'll need to take in to the court room. In addition to this, request particulars from the crown's office which will include the officer's notes on the back side of the ticket and you can see what he had to say about the incident. This is very important so you can see any discrepencies in your stories and you can make notes and question im on the stand.

Trust me mate, it's a gruling process to get all of the info you need and to do it right; however, to stick it to your opressor for a BS ticket, it may in fact be worth it!

[Goodfella]

Damn thats such a waste of life ticket, the cop had that much time on his hands? Normaly they will flag you down and give you a warning for this type of "violation". Did you happen to give the pig any beef?

[UndrgroundRider]

Whatever you do, don't mention that you didn't see the cop. That's like saying you weren't paying attention to your speedometer when trying to fight a speeding ticket.

[chkolny541]

575$!! holy shit!

[Nigel Mansell]

Did this happen on 17th avenue near 42/43rdnd street? I saw it happen!

[Eleanor]

Originally posted by King Banana
It's a good thing I have no credibility on these forums, otherwise I would have lost it there. :rofl:

[A790]

Originally posted by King Banana
It's a good thing I have no credibility on these forums, otherwise I would have lost it there.

Originally posted by Eleanor
:rofl:

:poosie:

[scat19]

Fight and update.

[Feruk]

His word against yours. If he decides to lie in court, you're in trouble. I'd say if he does, make sure to bring up that he said he'd been hit before. That'll at least undermine his credibility a little and you can make him out to look like a zealot. Last resort I would say though as this has never gone well for me.

[Zero102]

Originally posted by chkolny541
575$!! holy shit!

It's not $575, it is worse, there is a victim assistance fund surcharge of (IIRC) 15% ontop of that.

I was given one of these tickets once, a pedestrian was crossing the road, once they made it 2 lanes over I proceeded through the crosswalk (since they were now walking away from me). The cop pulled me over, gave me shit for "cutting it TOO CLOSE", and issued me the ticket. Obviously a BS ticket, you cannot take right-of-way from somebody if you are passing behind them. Doesn't help that I was 17 at the time and it was the 31st of August. Fought the ticket and it was thrown out right away, the cop's notes said that the pedestrian had already passed and that was all the judge needed to hear.

IMO yours is a BS ticket, you should fight it, but you should also learn from this, get in the habit of checking over your shoulder for pedestrians before turning. If you had mis-judged this during busy traffic you could have help up a lot of people since you were stopped in the wrong position while the pedestrian finished crossing.

[Canmorite]

$575 is absolutely ridiculous. Who the fuck approved that? :thumbsdow

[max_boost]

Originally posted by Canmorite
$575 is absolutely ridiculous. Who the fuck approved that? :thumbsdow

Yeah man. Some of these fines are just ridiculous! For fuck sakes, sometimes you think CPS is working on commission or some shit. The more tickets they write up, the more revenue, the $$$ in their pockets. :rofl: j/k

On a serious note, I know it's not their fault, just following protocol. But I find more discretion is needed in some cases.

With that said, it is working. I am so scared to speed at any time of the day. It's actually made me a better driver haha

[Kloubek]

Back in Kamloops I couldn't see properly out of my windshield; the t-tops were off, and the sun was in my eyes and making the dirt on the windshield glow.

Anyway, I stop at a stop sign, and didn't notice that an old dude was going full bore on the sidewalk with his sit-down scooter. I started to move forward, then I saw him - but not before I gave him the lightest tap you could possible imagine with the nose of my car. He fucking lost it on me. "Young punk in his Camaro eh?" "I'll teach you!!!", among other things.

I got out, and actually started writing my information on a piece of paper so he could do whatever he wanted to do with it. But he kept screaming at me, so I just said "fuck it". Threw the paper and the pen on the ground and told him to write my license place himself. Then sped off.

Never heard about it again.

Really doesn't relate at all to the OPs story... it just reminded me.

I certainly deserved a fine more than he does. But shit - that's steep!

[Redwagon]

Originally posted by Canmorite
$575 is absolutely ridiculous. Who the fuck approved that? :thumbsdow

The fine is appropriate. Wish every driver turning left that almost hit me while I was crossing the street received this fine.

[King Banana]

Originally posted by max_boost
just following protocol.

I'd like to know what protocol you are referring to.
The get mad and make up a law protocol?

[atgilchrist]

Originally posted by Zero102


It's not $575, it is worse, there is a victim assistance fund surcharge of (IIRC) 15% ontop of that.

I was given one of these tickets once, a pedestrian was crossing the road, once they made it 2 lanes over I proceeded through the crosswalk (since they were now walking away from me). The cop pulled me over, gave me shit for "cutting it TOO CLOSE", and issued me the ticket. Obviously a BS ticket, you cannot take right-of-way from somebody if you are passing behind them. Doesn't help that I was 17 at the time and it was the 31st of August. Fought the ticket and it was thrown out right away, the cop's notes said that the pedestrian had already passed and that was all the judge needed to hear.

IMO yours is a BS ticket, you should fight it, but you should also learn from this, get in the habit of checking over your shoulder for pedestrians before turning. If you had mis-judged this during busy traffic you could have help up a lot of people since you were stopped in the wrong position while the pedestrian finished crossing.

I thought the law was that the pedestrian had to be back on the sidewalk, or at least past the meridian on a divided road, before the car was allowed to proceed? I could be wrong though, good work on getting it thrown out.

[nj2Type-S]

this situation crosses my mind everytime i see a pedestrian crossing the street. if, for example, i stop for a pedestrian so that he can cross the street, can i proceed if he's close enough to the other side of the street? or should i wait until he finished crossing?

as far as i know, you should wait until the pedestrian has completely crossed the street before proceeding but i see other drivers proceeding to drive through he crosswalk as soon as they're behind the pedstrian. can somebody enlighten me?

[Kloubek]

I believe the ACTUAL rule is that you wait until they are across before proceeding. Of course, damn near EVERYONE just waits until they are out of the way.

Guess it depends how anal a cop wants to be at the time when they see it. And what time of the month it is. (For both their quota, and their woman.)

[kaput]

.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by Kloubek
I believe the ACTUAL rule is that you wait until they are across before proceeding.


By law you cannot enter the crosswalk until the pedestrian is out of the crosswalk zone even if you are on one side and they have passed you and near the other end of the crosswalk. I cross the street to Tim Hortons every morning nearly coinciding with police coffee time. Needless to say I have witnessed several times people getting pulled over for entering the crosswalk after I had walked past them. It's easy money for the city. On one hand I despise pedestrians that drag their ass walking through crosswalks like they are trying to stick it to you. However I have had some close calls where people have blown past me so close I could feel the draft of the car. IMO it's probably a fair law.

[Proyecto2000]

Originally posted by heavyD


By law you cannot enter the crosswalk until the pedestrian is out of the crosswalk zone even if you are on one side and they have passed you and near the other end of the crosswalk. I cross the street to Tim Hortons every morning nearly coinciding with police coffee time. Needless to say I have witnessed several times people getting pulled over for entering the crosswalk after I had walked past them. It's easy money for the city. On one hand I despise pedestrians that drag their ass walking through crosswalks like they are trying to stick it to you. However I have had some close calls where people have blown past me so close I could feel the draft of the car. IMO it's probably a fair law.

Every morning I turn right infront of the courthouse. You have 4 lanes of solid traffic heading west on 6th Ave SW and you have 2 dual right turns that go into 6th Ave. So I sit for 3min waiting for the light to go green and it turns green for me to turn, but now I have 50 people entering the crosswalk from both sides. So if I wait till the pedestrians are out of the crosswalk, I would then be making my turn on a yellow or a red light, which would still result in a ticket :banghead:

so like every other driver, I just turn as soon as I have enough room to safely go by

[Proyecto2000]

- double post -

[bignerd]

Request the police officers notes from the CP and go from there. Who knows what he wrote down about the incident.

I can guarantee you last time I crossed the street in my neighborhood the police officer (who I wasn't sure was going to stop for me when I was at the corner) did NOT wait until I had cleared the cross walk zone to continue on his way...

I agree most smaller streets, once the pedestrian is off your side of the road it is safe to go, however on larger roads (3 lanes wide, or downtown one way roads) if the person was out of your way and you proceeded to drive the person a couple lanes over may not realize there was a pedestrian crossing and continue to drive with the flow of traffic....

[djayz]

I received this ticket once on 17th. The sun was shining from behind in a nice summer evening and I was driving beside a big police van in the outside lane. He sped up a little so I slowed down just incase anyone comes running off the sidewalk as I could not see a thing with the size of their stupid van. Needless to say we ended up being side by side, he slams on his brakes nearly getting rear-ended and I float through the crosswalk doing 30km/h. Supposedly the lights were on but when I looked back they weren't, and I looked to my right as I went through and the guy had not stepped onto the road yet. Needless to say I got this stupid ticket, the cop was a douche and I wasted half a day in court getting it reduced to a failure to stop for a traffic signal.
I think I ended up paying just under $200 and unsure on demerits.

In your case the cop is the pedestrian so he saw the whole thing happen, however you DID NOT drive through the cross walk so you should have no problems with this in court unless ofcourse the cop starts lieing and saying you drove through.



Originally posted by Proyecto2000


Every morning I turn right infront of the courthouse. You have 4 lanes of solid traffic heading west on 6th Ave SW and you have 2 dual right turns that go into 6th Ave. So I sit for 3min waiting for the light to go green and it turns green for me to turn, but now I have 50 people entering the crosswalk from both sides. So if I wait till the pedestrians are out of the crosswalk, I would then be making my turn on a yellow or a red light, which would still result in a ticket :banghead:

so like every other driver, I just turn as soon as I have enough room to safely go by

I don't think this is as big of an issue in downtown as it is elsewhere. I see buses, ambulances, cars, cops do this all the time in downtown. I'm guessing the speeds are so slow that no body is worried and also pedestrians in downtown just need to watch their own ass.

Remember those j-walking tickets they were handing out not too long ago? Well yah those are so people smarten up when crossing the road, especially in downtown.

[dexlargo]

Originally posted by Zero102


It's not $575, it is worse, there is a victim assistance fund surcharge of (IIRC) 15% ontop of that. No, they include the victim fine surcharge in the amount that they write on the ticket. The fine is $500, the $75 is the Victim fine surcharge of 15%.

The actual section of the TSA (or rules of the road regulation) just says the offense is failing to yield to pedestrian in crosswalk. I'm not sure how the courts interpret that, but I would think that passing behind the pedestrian (with enough room) would be sufficient. Don't rely on that, though. That's just my interpretation. Maybe I'll have a look and see if there are any cases that discuss this as I've often wondered if I'm right or not.

ETA: I couldn't find a case that determines this exact issue. Other provinces word their legislation differently, i.e. some provinces require that you must yield to a pedestrian on same half of highway when close enough to endanger the pedestrian... In interpreting the 'close enough to endanger' part, one Ontario court found that a vehicle that went through a crosswalk ahead of a pedestrian one full lane away from the pedestrian was close enough to endanger the pedestrian. In that case, the pedestrian stopped and waited for that vehicle to pass while halfway across the crosswalk and the vehicle was only travelling at 15-20 km/h. This decision doesn't bind our courts.

It would be prudent to leave plenty of distance between you and the pedestrian. Not sure if that means that you must wait until they are all the way across.

[King Banana]

Beyond should have a section where you can log the names of the officers you have complaints with and have a database list so other members can add names and badge numbers to the list of negative reviews.

[UndrgroundRider]

Originally posted by dexlargo
ETA: I couldn't find a case that determines this exact issue. Other provinces word their legislation differently, i.e. some provinces require that you must yield to a pedestrian on same half of highway when close enough to endanger the pedestrian... In interpreting the 'close enough to endanger' part, one Ontario court found that a vehicle that went through a crosswalk ahead of a pedestrian one full lane away from the pedestrian was close enough to endanger the pedestrian. In that case, the pedestrian stopped and waited for that vehicle to pass while halfway across the crosswalk and the vehicle was only travelling at 15-20 km/h. This decision doesn't bind our courts.

I've seen a few of these cases in Alberta. Usually the justice words his reasoning for judgement along the lines of whether or not the pedestrian had to change his/her direction or speed to maintain a safe distance. Although I'm not aware of any officially established test or rule for this.

[DayGlow]

Originally posted by UndrgroundRider


I've seen a few of these cases in Alberta. Usually the justice words his reasoning for judgement along the lines of whether or not the pedestrian had to change his/her direction or speed to maintain a safe distance. Although I'm not aware of any officially established test or rule for this.

This is my understanding of the case law on these tickets. The pedestrian has to check their step or move to avoid being hit.

Now from the OP's story I wonder what the test will be. Did you move a few feet and see the pedestrian or did you stop just short of the marked crosswalk? I wonder how the courts would interpret this as the pedestrian may have stopped or even retreated believing that you did not see them and that they could be hit if they didn't move out of your way, only to have you stop just short of breaking the plane of the crosswalk.

Fail to yield is a broad term. Yield signs do not have a line that you must yield behind. I honestly don't know if the courts will interpret that the vehicle must break the plane of the crosswalk to fail to yield.

[Zero102]

Originally posted by UndrgroundRider


I've seen a few of these cases in Alberta. Usually the justice words his reasoning for judgement along the lines of whether or not the pedestrian had to change his/her direction or speed to maintain a safe distance. Although I'm not aware of any officially established test or rule for this.

That is exactly what the judge said to me as well, that the pedestrian was not in danger because they did not have to take evasive action (which stuck with me because evasive action == star trek in my mind), hence my ticket being incorrectly issued.

[jonnycat]

I got called an asshole once by some douche at safeway a few months ago. He was in my A-pillar blind spot, which was huge with the added window vents. The only reason I missed him, was because I was looking up ahead at the proper crosswalk to make sure the same situation wouldn't happen, So he walks up to my car within a foot and holds his groceries up, before he could say anything, I gave him a heart felt apology for not seeing him and he calls me an asshole. I strongly beleive he was pissed simply because had to wait for me to pass as he was never in danger.

The reason parents invented the rule to look both ways before you cross the street at uncontrolled intersections is because it is difficult for drivers to always see everyone and it's common sense, if you wish to stay alive. It's why they invented crosswalks. I was literally just crawling over a speed bump at <10kms an hour, he wasn't in any danger and was aware of me and was crossing where he shouldn't have been, and I'm the asshole.

In the OP's situation, this shit happens all the time. I'm just happy that the person ends up seeing me and lets me cross, as everyone who drives has probably been on both sides of this situation and can understand why this happens.

[dexlargo]

If you never actually entered the crosswalk, I'm not sure how it would be possible to commit this offence. Maybe if you drove up on the sidewalk beside the crosswalk? If you're sure you didn't enter the crosswalk, I'd take it to trial. But go see the first appearance crown and explain your take. They might just withdraw it.