Undergrad Thesis and Employment

[msommers]

Currently I'm faced with a dilemma, and decision time needs to be fairly soon as to what I'm going to do.

Basically it boils down to two options given that my graduating year is going to be waaay less course intensive:

1) Do an undergrad thesis. This would span over the entire year and is a lot of work overall. Funding I receive to do this would be entirely extra cash as none of my money would be required to do research.

2) I don't bother with the thesis and essentially work full time for a semester. I'd have a lot of extra cash in comparison and way less to worry about.

Basically it is boiling down to this for me and this is where I'd like some employeer/recruiter opinion. I realize an undergrad thesis is something nice to have on a resume, but does it really matter that much? In another way, if someone sees it on my resume are they going to be all over it or just bypass it with little acknowledgement?

I have no intentions to do grad school at this point in my life.

[Crymson]

Yah, it's not that big of a deal. I'm sure you'd get a couple of questions on it, but if it's not grad school work, it's generally nothing more than a footnote.

But, depending on the topic, it may make the difference in a pile of seemingly identidial resumes to show that you're focussing on something that the hiring company is looking for.

[punky]

in calgary, one year of experience > one year of thesis research.

[nonlinear]

This all depends on what do you intend to do once you graduate. if you want to go to grad school (or do research of any sort), then you should most definitely do an honors thesis. if, on the other hand, you just want to get a quick tech job in oil and gas (or some other env. consulting), a year of work experience might would be better.

that said, if you really do want to work in the oil and gas industry, and you have any sense at all (which I know you do), i would highly recommend first getting an MSc or (better yet) PhD in a related field. At first, it may seem as if you're not keeping pace financially with those who get a tech job right out of undergrad, but I promise that it will more than make up for it in later career advancement opportunities, as well as job satisfaction since you won't have to be stuck in the field your entire life making $40k with a bunch of numbskull roughnecks who have a bsc in geology.

[Pahnda]

Originally posted by nonlinear
... as well as job satisfaction since you won't have to be stuck in the field your entire life making $40k with a bunch of numbskull roughnecks who have a bsc in geology.

I was with you up until there, then I had to have myself a laugh.

I agree if you want to do much serious research you should get to some level where your understanding is at the cutting edge. At an undergraduate level you will have an appreciation for it but you won't be involved in it very actively. However to say that with only a BSc he'll be limited in his career or have to work with morons is a pretty broad and inept statement.

Within most of the companies I've researched when I was applying to jobs, and the company I'm in currently, upper level executives hold a bachelors in something related to their field and sometimes an MBA or similar to complement.

Also, based on what I've seen, a fairly large percentage of those who both hold a graduate degree in the same/similar field as their bachelors as well as hold an upper executive position came into that position when the company was formed.

That's not to say doing a MSc or PhD is bad at all, I would have happily gone that route if my GPA would not get me into the law school I want. I just think the typical person going that route is generally more inclined to do base research work, rather than going to the business side of an organization. Plus that's, possibly, many years out of your work history spent on school. And regardless of how well you do in school, it can't compensate for lacking a track record in the corporate world.

[Crymson]

Originally posted by nonlinear


that said, if you really do want to work in the oil and gas industry, and you have any sense at all (which I know you do), i would highly recommend first getting an MSc or (better yet) PhD in a related field. At first, it may seem as if you're not keeping pace financially with those who get a tech job right out of undergrad, but I promise that it will more than make up for it in later career advancement opportunities, as well as job satisfaction since you won't have to be stuck in the field your entire life making $40k with a bunch of numbskull roughnecks who have a bsc in geology.

I disagree, an M.Sc is pretty standard requirement in the US or Europe, but not in Canada. It's fairly well recognized that our Earth Science B.Sc's are very high quality.

If you are working with a Major UK or US headquartered super major, you may have a hard time without a masters or Phd, but you'll have no problems in a Canadian company or an international company with a large Canadian office and canadian presense.

[nonlinear]

with all due respect, I absolutely disagree with the last two posters. i have several friends who work in oil and gas consulting (each with several years experience), and based on what I hear from them as well as their colleagues i've met, etc., you can certainly distinguish those with advanced degrees from those with BScs or, worse yet, certificates from places like olds college... in terms of work quality, position, and salary. you guys can disagree with me all you want, since i'm more than used to getting crap on beyond from folks who i offend with my frank comments. i am, however, trying to give msommers useful, insightful advice, and I stand firmly by my original statement.

[nonlinear]

Originally posted by Pahnda


I was with you up until there, then I had to have myself a laugh.

I agree if you want to do much serious research you should get to some level where your understanding is at the cutting edge. At an undergraduate level you will have an appreciation for it but you won't be involved in it very actively. However to say that with only a BSc he'll be limited in his career or have to work with morons is a pretty broad and inept statement.

Within most of the companies I've researched when I was applying to jobs, and the company I'm in currently, upper level executives hold a bachelors in something related to their field and sometimes an MBA or similar to complement.

Also, based on what I've seen, a fairly large percentage of those who both hold a graduate degree in the same/similar field as their bachelors as well as hold an upper executive position came into that position when the company was formed.

That's not to say doing a MSc or PhD is bad at all, I would have happily gone that route if my GPA would not get me into the law school I want. I just think the typical person going that route is generally more inclined to do base research work, rather than going to the business side of an organization. Plus that's, possibly, many years out of your work history spent on school. And regardless of how well you do in school, it can't compensate for lacking a track record in the corporate world.

the problem is that undergrad programs teach students how to regurgitate information, but they don't teach them how to think, write, be organized, deal with criticism, or manage people. those skills are acquired in graduate school, and that it what differentiates MScs and PhDs from the BScs.

[Crymson]

Well, from my personal experience, being in oil and gas exploration for 5 years AND doing recruitment and hiring for student and new hire positions, I can say that YES you can usually tell the Phd's from the undergrads. Mostly becaues the undergrads work.

Remember, your job is to find economic oil and gas NOT to conduct research. For every researcher at a shell or an exxon, there is a 100 geologists out drilling wells and making maps.

I can say, that of my peers about 10-20% have graduate degrees and they aren't any more ahead than the guys with bachelor degrees. If anything, most are dissatisfied because their grad degree pigeon holed them.

I'm not saying there isn't value in having a specific skill set. Yes, generall you have some well educated specialized individuals who fulfull niche roles, those are where the graduate degrees are. Nearly all of the "specialists" i know have a masters or phd. But they don't really earn more or be more productive than anyone else, they just do specialized work which may help or hurt their future job prospects, who knows.

[Pahnda]

^^
Nicely put example.

For me this choice really boils down to the following:

1) I want to do serious research in my career but may or may not really care about advancing past the director of a research group.
- Get a graduate degree... Optimally this type will be the type that gets excited about doing the actual research, not watching people do it from an executive level.

2) I don't really care about doing much base-line and advanced research.
- BSc is sufficient with upgrading later if the organization places enough value on something like an MBA.


Originally posted by nonlinear


the problem is that undergrad programs teach students how to regurgitate information, but they don't teach them how to think, write, be organized, deal with criticism, or manage people. those skills are acquired in graduate school, and that it what differentiates MScs and PhDs from the BScs.

Another broad statement. Out of everyone I knew in my graduating class most of the people who were not succinct in explanations, who were poorly organized, or otherwise, went into graduate studies. They understood their material enough that I could say they could research in that area, but were far from what I would say is 'exceptional'.

I think that may be due to the current climate where it's often much easier to get into graduate school in a decent school than get a job. However, I fail to understand how doing a PhD or Masters trumps working with general thinking and problem solving, writing, organization, or otherwise, unless the person in question's job involves doing no work and/or never talking to people.

[punky]

what is your current undergrad degree?

[nonlinear]

i believe msommers is working towards a BSc in Geology

[msommers]

Thanks guys. It's interesting to see so many different perspectives but it was a larger span than I was anticipating.

Firstly yes, I'm in the petroleum concentration at school with the possibility of doing a minor in environmental geology (however I think unlikely after much thought).

Back in the day when I first decided to go into geology, I was able to job shadow with the director of geology at a major company in town. He had a Masters, and was English which may have played a factor. That notion had always stuck with me for reason though...Masters nets overall higher advancement, which obviously is ideal. Being a manager or possibly a director is something I'm shooting for. Either that or starting my own exploration company. Would an undergrad thesis make or break this possibility? I have my doubts it would. However, my supervisor who would be funding this project is aiming for this to be published. Whether that means much to anyone downtown or abroad, I just do not know.

From my understanding and with respect to O&G, techs that graduate from SAIT typically are wellsite geologists where as those with a Bsc typically work in the office. I'd like experience working wellsite, but more to understand what goes on there than anything permanent.

I went into geology for a few reasons and have stuck with it because I really like it. Firstly, there is opportunity to travel. Secondly, it usually pays well. Thirdly, I needed to be immersed with intellectual people. When I worked out of town being an electrician, it was 50/50 to be with a retard or someone with a brain. Not to sound elitist and I'm certainly not the smartest guy out there, but it got fucking annoying.

Since I did not get a job downtown this summer, I have to weigh this out. I have been doing geology work for just about 3 years now and initially figured that would be solid resume material, but to much disappointment it led to sweet fuck all. I suppose I'm a little pissed about that and the thought of doing more of it, for less money than a non-geology job plus more work to net me nothing, again, seems foolish. I suppose pseudo-leading a research project and having an assistant would be a good experience. At this point, it is what the eyes of recruiters are looking for that I want most though.

[nonlinear]

if you are planning to do an MSc, you should most definitely do an honors thesis. it won't "make or break" you chances of getting into a grad program, but it will give you experience so you can 1) get accepted into a good lab (which makes ALL the difference), and 2) hit the ground running once you begin your MSc.

[princeaidin]

Honestly, in Calgary from what I have seen

Research ....meh
Experience ..... slight glimmer in the eye
RELEVANT in this case O & G Experience .... solid interest

Directly Relevant O & G Experience, ie. Applying for a job in Completions and you have completions or production experience............ the bessssst


So if your not interested in grad school, and probably wont be going back for an MSc.

Unless your doing your undergrad thesis in something in the lines of reservoir modeling of shallow sagd reservoirs with the potential of using es-sagd or vapex, then I wouldnt suggest it. But thats my 0.02

[msommers]

Just an update.

I had a nice lunch yesterday with a VP from an O&G company downtown and tried to pick his brain about this, among other job related things. His thoughts echoed those just posted above.

However, my boss has taken the liberty of speaking to a potential supervisor already at school about me doing a thesis, even though I mentioned I was in the process of deciding if I even wanted to do one at all! I suppose I will see what kind of research topics he is interested in and where. Given my work's study area, its relevance is quite dismal with respect to current operations.

[Crymson]

Talking with a VP is the most important thing you can do to forward your career.

Oil and gas jobs are rarely "found" they are "offered".

I would argue that focussing on networking would be far more valuable than forucssing on thesis.