How picky for a home reno?

[LMVantage]

I'm not sure how far I should push this, so I figured I'd get input from others on this one. Currently my basement is being renovated by a contractor with an attitude problem. He says he's one of the best at his job, yet keeps cutting corners. When we call him on them, he accuses other people, and sometimes us, saying that we told him otherwise (which is never the case, obviously).

Anyhow, the paint has been done, and carpet installed. I've noticed issues such as light paint application in spots, poor taping/mudding around a window, and baseboards not installed low enough (you can see gaps between the carpet and baseboards). I went around the basement this evening putting pieces of tape everywhere I saw an issue, and there are plenty of them.

Now, am I just being too picky here, or am I fully justified? I did make sure that whatever I saw was visible from 3ft away - no closer. I've already had a few blow ups with the guy, and tomorrow the second last cheque is being given to him (then it's just 10% left to pay). I know all those pieces of tape will explode things once again haha

[barmanjay]

pics?
Sq/ft of basement?
What kind of development?
(suite? bed/bath/bar? rumpus/media room?)
how much is the total quote for?

[jefferson2]

Get him to fix it. If he doesn't, you could post his name/company up here, (if he really did do a shit awful job) and whatever measly amounts he's saving by cutting corners on 1 job will be nothing compared to lost business over a bad rep.

[2Valve0]

If you saw one problem why would you allow him to keep working without fixing it? :confused: It's your damn house obviously you want it to be done right, don't except less

[LMVantage]

I just took some pictures and will post them up shortly. Due to a poor camera, a bunch of the issues didn't show up in the pictures.

The size is roughly 82 sq yd. It's the basement that was done, and everything except for the bathroom and laundry room as ripped out and redone (the basement had been very poorly developed before). The house is a bi-level, so the lower stairs were carpeted, and everything was done in a hallway, bedroom, and living room.

The company name is Walker Industries. I posted a thread a few weeks back asking if anyone had ever dealt with him, and I guess no one has on here (at least not anyone who saw the thread).

I'll get the pictures up shortly.

[LMVantage]

Originally posted by 2Valve0
If you saw one problem why would you allow him to keep working without fixing it? :confused: It's your damn house obviously you want it to be done right, don't except less

When I see stuff, I call him on it as soon as I'm able to, and get him to fix it.

[88CRX]

Contractors love peddling BS to consumers..... it's your money paying for the work so you should be happy.

All those items you posted seem to well within reason of being unacceptable.

[Wrinkly]

When you say ripped out and re-done, did it involve structure (as in changes to or new) walls/electrical/plumbing? If so - he should have obtained permits.

Edit: from their web site:

"Whether you are looking for a complete Basement development, a new Kitchen or Bathroom, an addition to your home ,or a new Fence or Deck to entertain your friends, Walker Industries will work hard to bring your dream to reality.

Our objective is to help you achieve the look and feel you desire in any room you wish to transform. We strive to achieve this by listening carefully to your needs while working effectively within the parameters of your budget. Our standards and work ethics will help to achieve a stress free transformation to your home."

Show it to him, and tell him you want nothing more than he claims to deliver!

(Save a screen shot of the actual web page in case it gets ugly).

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by barmanjay
pics?
Sq/ft of basement?
What kind of development?
(suite? bed/bath/bar? rumpus/media room?)
how much is the total quote for?

^ This....very important. If you paid top dollar, or even a comparable price, then stick to your guns. The problems you've listed sound legit. But, playing Devils advocate here, sometimes people complain (like on Mike Holmes) and then you find out the contract was a quarter of what the average reno should've gone for. Which means they obviously got a cheap-ass diy'er type contractor.

To give an example: I specialize in complete bathroom reno's. Your average 8x5 bathroom will run in the $7,500 dollar range for a complete gut. I've seen people bitch when they got a contractor who said they'd do it for $2500. And there in lies the problem.

A basement reno....not sure, but you're looking at the 30-40k range, Barmanjay can give a more accurate figure.
But gaps under base..poor taping and painting...sounds like a crappy job.

[LMVantage]

In this first picture, check out the line extending from the tape to the baseboard. It's not a crack - the drywall isn't level there.
http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs437.snc3/25158_10150164927945604_540730603_11997829_4652682_n.jpg

This is beneath a window. That kind of stuff extends almost the entire width of the framing.
http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs437.snc3/25158_10150164927950604_540730603_11997830_2137597_n.jpg

Examples of the baseboard being too high.
http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs457.ash1/25158_10150164927965604_540730603_11997832_949092_n.jpg

http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs417.snc3/25158_10150164928020604_540730603_11997839_1660274_n.jpg

http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs417.snc3/25158_10150164927970604_540730603_11997833_3934806_n.jpg

http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs417.snc3/25158_10150164928015604_540730603_11997838_1874256_n.jpg

[LMVantage]

Originally posted by Wrinkly
When you say ripped out and re-done, did it involve structure (as in changes to or new) walls/electrical/plumbing? If so - he should have obtained permits.

Structures weren't changed/moved, but electrical was done. Some framing was redone, but no walls were moved. We made sure permits were obtained for the job.

This will end up costing just a hair under $30k.

[danno]

Originally posted by C_Dave45




A basement reno....not sure, but you're looking at the 30-40k range, Barmanjay can give a more accurate figure.
But gaps under base..poor taping and painting...sounds like a crappy job.
are you talking the average house basement being around 30k-40k. i did mine for about $5000, it's not big at all and i did it myself. to give you a example as a electrician i charge about $1700 to do a basement on average so where do you get the other 38k. maybe i need to switch to home renos.

edit i guess i could be wrong that's alot of money, 30k wow

[Wrinkly]

30K?!? :eek:

Go for the jugular - you deserve better!!

[C_Dave45]

yeah thats brutal work. definitely legit concerns.

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by danno

are you talking the average house basement being around 30k-40k. i did mine for about $5000, it's not big at all and i did it myself. to give you a example as a electrician i charge about $1700 to do a basement on average so where do you get the other 38k. maybe i need to switch to home renos.

edit i guess i could be wrong that's alot of money, 30k wow

with all due respect..saying "I did mine for $5 g's" is like saying...."I bought a car for $5,000...when someone else paid $30k for theirs".
Trust me...I've been in construction for 28 years...an average basement finishing and/or reno done by a QUALIFIED CONTRACTOR will run you those numbers. That price of just under 30k is not out of line....those imperfections...are.

[LMVantage]

This is all good to know. I'm glad I'm not just being too picky! Tomorrow is going to be an interesting morning... haha I figure I'll do a walk through with him right when he gets here to see what he has to say and plans to do, all before I hand him his next cheque.

[danno]

fair enough, mine is all material as i wired it, my dad has been building houses for 10 years so he taught me how to frame and do baseboards, my moms boyfriend is a drywaller/taper. paint is easy and carpet should be in the next week by a professional. knowing the right people helps. i didn't realize it was in the 30k area, i was thinking 10k-15k. good luck to op on getting his house in top shape.

[barmanjay]

okokok

I was a general contractor and a professional drywall taper before that.

I mostly did basements

82 sq/yds = 738 sq/ft

To completely demo a basement I would've charges about $2-4000 (includes dump fees and etc)

Aside from that the max price for a basement including a full bathroom (basic entry level builders grade 3-4 piece, nothing fancy) is about $35 sq/ft = $25,830.00

So we are sitting at a max of $29,830.00


The drywall looks to be a hair in the imperfection,.. but I would need to see the rest of the job IN-PERSON to tell if the whole job is sub standard.

Aside from what I see, is simple imperfections the HE SHOULD FIX.

the gap under the baseboards

Concrete floor is NEVER level.

he would've measured from the highest point (probably 1/2") off the concrete floor and run the basebaords as evenly as possible. GAPS WILL HAPPEN - unforunate for basements but that is the absolute truth.

He may have measured 3/4" as most carpet layers will recommend this. Probably why the gaps are more prevalent.

If this is a huge issue for you, ask him to put down a 3/4" quarter round and nail to baseboards to hide the gap. maybe another $500-700 worth of material, paint and labour.

But seeing as you didn't get a bathroom,.. I would get him to fix everything, including putting the 3/4" painted quarter round to hide the gap for free.

Hope this helps

[barmanjay]

Originally posted by LMVantage
... It's the basement that was done, and everything except for the bathroom and laundry room as ripped out......

I have an issue with 30g's and no bathroom,... seriously!

Are you in an expensive neighbourhood are some of your finishings solid chrome or granite?


Ask him what size underpad for the carpet,.. for the price you paid you better have a 5/8" minimum

I won't recommend you hold back any money without seeing this job in person, but from what you post I do think you have overpaid.

Maybe his trades overcharged him? did he sub-out most of the work? did he do most of the work?

I could get away with $27-30 sq/ft because I did most of the work myself (except electrical rough-in/fuse panel and plumbing rough-in)

I am out and about tomorrow in the morning till about noon and I don't have to pick up the kids till 2:30 so I could always pop by and give you my honest post professional opinion.

Call me:

Jay
889-4747

[2Valve0]

30,000 for a basment reno?
Holy shit I've helped family members and a few friends do their whole reno's for free. :facepalm: Guess it pays to know how to do some work and I have no "proffesional" experience, but even I can tell you I do better work than(from the pictures) that and I'm a noob. Maybe I should look into this as a summer job :rofl:

[customtvlift123]

There are many factors that can affect on your renovation. First can you give a complete picture of what you are renovating. Then the size. What kind of renovation you want. And how much are you willing to spend with your renovation.

[GTS4tw]

The work is brutal, no doubt. However, just to let you know, that is risky putting masking tape on freshly painted walls, I would use green tape to mark out the deficiencies instead. The painter is going to shit his pants when he sees that.

[topmade]

Baseboards look alright, if anything, the person who installed the carpet did a shitty job. Looks like they didn't put the nail boards close enough or may even cheaped out and didn't put nail boards all around and just in sections.

But man, for $30K with no laundry room or bathroom, there better be an office that you didn't take a picture of that has a built in granite desk and cabinets or something.

[Cos]

To the people who are saying that they "did it free" or "did it for $5000.00". You are not a contractor. Materials for these guys runs $5000.00 plus they have to hire all the trades and make a profit off it.

My uncle is a GC for a well known Reno Outfit in town and I think their prices run $35.00/$50.00 a sq ft. They do amazing work but to complete my basement in my townhouse was $18,000 roughly. I could do it over a summer for probably $3,000.00







OP that cost sounds high but I dont know all what you have put in for finishes. For that price the paint and drywall need to be fixed. BarManJay is right about the baseboards. I dont know how old your house is but I would bet the floor settled.

I would approach him nice and tell him these are the problems you see and want fixed. Dont jump down his throat, things like this always happen.

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by topmade
Baseboards look alright, if anything, the person who installed the carpet did a shitty job. Looks like they didn't put the nail boards close enough or may even cheaped out and didn't put nail boards all around and just in sections.

But man, for $30K with no laundry room or bathroom, there better be an office that you didn't take a picture of that has a built in granite desk and cabinets or something.

btw...."nail boards"....its called "smooth-edge". But you're right...carpet install doesn't look good. Almost looks like straight "glue-down", with no pad or smooth edge at all.

It's impossible to say if that +/- $30k is too high. We don't know how much demo was required. An unfinished, bare basement is one thing. When existing development first needs to be demo'd, then that price changes considerably. OP said
everything except for the bathroom and laundry room was ripped out and redone (the basement had been very poorly developed before) So we're not talking about just a simple basement finishing. You could easily spend a week just ripping stuff out and taking to the dump, before you even begin to "finish".
Nevertheless, those deficiencies op pictured are legitimate issues. Don't let those slide.

[LMVantage]

Originally posted by GTS4tw
The work is brutal, no doubt. However, just to let you know, that is risky putting masking tape on freshly painted walls, I would use green tape to mark out the deficiencies instead. The painter is going to shit his pants when he sees that.

It's not actually tape, guess I should have just said they're sticky-notes. The paint was finished a week ago.

Also, with the baseboards, I could understand if there was a gap in just one or two places, but I didn't post all the pictures I took. There are gaps just about everywhere, which leads me to believe it's not just the floor not being level.

[HondaKid]

Looks like the kind of work my dad did on our basement, he has no training in anything beyond a desk. And this was fine as it was him and a few friends helping out each other. So, I think you got screwed on the job really. Ask yourself, is this what Mike Holmes would allow?

A man may call himself a contractor, but if walks like a duck and talks like a duck....

[kwjent]

I had the same problems as your pics. Baseboards and especially in a new house will never sit level. This guy looks like an idiot, just like my contractor. I just learned to accept it as he was recommended by my Realtor said he did excellent work. Bullshit, I threw his tools on my front lawn and said GTFO. He was always defense, I would see him hanging at Timmy's and he would eat out of my fridge. I will put up with some B.S man but this guy took it to a whole other level.

Story in short, the A B B doesn't really do much and we as homeowners if we want it fixed can say we will spread the word but really just end up having to get it re-done or just say screw it.

[barmanjay]

i just came from there.

in my opinion, he has over-paid by approx 15%.

the basebaords look to be set too high, but the concrete flooring is uber crooked. The drywall looks to be resting on the floor: no 1/2" gap at the bottom.
trim is a basic starter home package, so the carpet cant rest and settle properly under the 3/8" thick baseboard and is folding against the drywall (were the 1/2" gap should be).

there are some original heating issues that souldve been dealt with (that weren't) by proxy during the reno - no questions.

from what i see; what i'm told; the quality of workmanship: I think the contract is overpriced by about 15%

*disclaimer
I have not been actively doing general contracting in 3 years, but i doubt prices have changed much since.

[Crymson]

Interesting.

Is it that hard to get someone who actually WANTS to do a quality job or are people always going to be stuck with crap like this?

I want to do a reno but it doesn't seem worth the hassle.

[LMVantage]

Update:

So it seems the contractor is scared to talk to me haha I called and left him a message to see when he was planning to come by and pick up his cheque, and his right-hand man called me back, on the contractor's phone! I was trying to get him to come by this evening so I could talk to him, and made it known that I was not leaving the cheque for him to come and grab, I was giving it to him in person.

Anyhow, the guy came over right away to talk about the issues. Thanks to barmanjay's help and advice, they're going to do what Jay recommended to me, which is to run a quarter-round throughout the entire basement to cover up the gaps. He agreed that it all looked wrong, and that it wasn't just the floor that was uneven - it was simply too high everywhere. He'll also repair and fix all the other issues with the walls and taping.

Once again, thank you so much for coming by Jay. I'm truly amazed that you would make that offer to a stranger!

[barmanjay]

you may see I do that once in a while on here :D


Pay-it-forward!!!

[danno]

good job barman, and thanks for the heads up on the pricing for a basement. i guess i never thought about the cost, knowing that i have one of every trade in my family (except plumber) it would get done fairly cheap.

[barmanjay]

Originally posted by danno
good job barman, and thanks for the heads up on the pricing for a basement. i guess i never thought about the cost, knowing that i have one of every trade in my family (except plumber) it would get done fairly cheap.

It sure does help to have family in the trades

afaik: the contract is between 25-30k

the job with demo should've only cost 20-24k

but he did get a nice knock-down texture, lots of pot lights and a new sub panel for electrical.

but still overpriced in my opinion for the craftsmanship

[danno]

i don't get why guys do poor work, probably 50% of my jobs come from word of mouth. always do a good job and you will be rewarded with more work.

[03ozwhip]

my house is getting built right now and im getting the basement developed from the builder at just under 800sqf its costing me about 30k and thats with a full bath, a huge 11x14 bedroom, rec room and family room.

i also believe you paid too much for the quality and the amount getting done. i paid 5k at about 450sqf to renovate my last house' basement, but thats because i bought all the materials and did it myself(with help) so thats a realistic number if youre doing it that way.

30k is a realistic number if you got what i got and with good quality. there is usually a few issues with every reno no matter how good the contractor is, things happen, but they are there working for you so if its not up to par, they should definitely be covering any *noticeable* errors.

[variance]

sorry a bit off topic - i have a quick question for those who did the basement renos themselves and/or contractors....can you recommend a book or a set of instructions somewhere that would give a good run down on how to go about renovating your own basement? ie. order of what to do first and how to go about doing them?

thanks

[jefferson2]

Beyond Delivers once again lol

C_dave45 and BarmanJay, if I ever need anything done reno wise, I'm coming to you guys.

[Cos]

Originally posted by variance
sorry a bit off topic - i have a quick question for those who did the basement renos themselves and/or contractors....can you recommend a book or a set of instructions somewhere that would give a good run down on how to go about renovating your own basement? ie. order of what to do first and how to go about doing them?

thanks

This is in no way meant to be rude but if you need a book, I wouldnt do it alone. I would find a family member or friend that knows what they are doing to help you the first time. Basements are pretty easy, the only thing I am not good at is the flooring and the mud/tape. So we hired out people to do that.

[barmanjay]

Originally posted by jefferson2
Beyond Delivers once again lol

C_dave45 and BarmanJay, if I ever need anything done reno wise, I'm coming to you guys.

Thx,.. but I hung up my tools and changed careers years ago.

I'm only good for advice now

C_dave45 would be a better choice

[craigcd]

I am reno-ing my own basement right now. I have little expereience but am learning and my mudding and taping looks better. Might take me a long time to get there but i get it looking good eventually!

[psycoticclown]

Renoing a basement isn't too hard, my dad did our entire basement except for carpeting when I was younger. He did washroom and installed some cabinets and a downstairs bar. 1300 sq ft. Took him 10 years to do it though haha. He'd work on it maybe 1 week in a year.

[LMVantage]

I would have loved to have done the reno myself, only hiring those I needed, such as an electrician. The only issue is that I'm currently in uni, and the basement is basically my living area, so we couldn't afford for me to take that amount of time! haha

[jfit09]

This annoys me to no end, there are so many contractors out there that are nothing but shoemakers, that is to say they have no clue what they are at. This is also why I have been thinking about starting my own general contracting firm.

I recently completed a job that I underbid by 15% this caliber of contractor would likely have made up that 15% by cutting costs and corners, I did not do this as I would rather loose my shirt on a job than harm my reputation as a contractor. I alerted the owner that this was the case and I told her that I wasn't going to try to get it out of her as it was my fault for providing the estimate too low. She just bought a new home and insists I go with her to the inspection to estimate her new house.

Thats how a contractor should be, just my 0.02

[LMVantage]

Originally posted by jfit09
This annoys me to no end, there are so many contractors out there that are nothing but shoemakers, that is to say they have no clue what they are at. This is also why I have been thinking about starting my own general contracting firm.

I recently completed a job that I underbid by 15% this caliber of contractor would likely have made up that 15% by cutting costs and corners, I did not do this as I would rather loose my shirt on a job than harm my reputation as a contractor. I alerted the owner that this was the case and I told her that I wasn't going to try to get it out of her as it was my fault for providing the estimate too low. She just bought a new home and insists I go with her to the inspection to estimate her new house.

Thats how a contractor should be, just my 0.02

Seems to be a rare quality with contractors these days. For me, the fight is still going, and now I have a feeling it will be going to BBB or some other last resort.. A job quoted for 4-5 weeks is now in week 12 to no fault of our own, just a lazy contractor!

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by LMVantage


.. A job quoted for 4-5 weeks is now in week 12 to no fault of our own, just a lazy contractor!
I'm working on a reno that was originally quoted at $250,000 and 3 months is now at 7 months and $400,000!! (I'm not the contractor) Lol.

[jfit09]

My agreements for work states "final payment due only when customer is 100% satisfied" I don't get paid until that is the case. I stand by it and this is something I would like to see every contractor do, and homeowners to insist on having written into the agreement. If you do the job the way you promise to do it you should have no problem getting money out of the homeowner.

[speedog]

Originally posted by LMVantage
Seems to be a rare quality with contractors these days. For me, the fight is still going, and now I have a feeling it will be going to BBB or some other last resort.. A job quoted for 4-5 weeks is now in week 12 to no fault of our own, just a lazy contractor! Going to the BBB may only make a difference if the particular contractor is a member of the BBB and even if they are, the BBB has no teeth. The BBB is just an organization that represents businesses and can try to negotiate settlements if a dispute arises. But a business (BBB member or not) can opt to ignore the BBB's requests - probably at the risk of being booted out of the BBB. But then again, there are thousands of businesses out there that don't belong to the BBB that are very reputable - belonging to the BBB is not necessarily a sign of anything and certainly is not going to guarantee to resolve to a situation. For the most, the reality is that many businesses join business organizations because of operating savings they can realize and the BBB is just one of number of business organizations that are out there.

Your best avenue if you can't resolve this with the contractor - small claims court or more if need be.

[garnet]

there are alot of homeowners who are trouble to deal with too, not saying that of the OP, but being a general contractor, i can say that at least 25% don't know the business side, and will expect the unreasonable
i say that because you need to take steps to protect yourself as a contractor, like a contract that stipulates 'payment upon completion' vs. 'upon 100% satisfaction'

speaking as a finishing contractor, the OP has legit complaint about finishing details of work done

where the glue down carpet gaps from trim is not something easily fixed afterwards, that is were as a GC or homeowner, it pays to be there during the process, so that the carpet layer can hopefully correct the problem there & then



Originally posted by jfit09
My agreements for work states "final payment due only when customer is 100% satisfied" I don't get paid until that is the case. I stand by it and this is something I would like to see every contractor do, and homeowners to insist on having written into the agreement. If you do the job the way you promise to do it you should have no problem getting money out of the homeowner.

[garnet]

Originally posted by C_Dave45

I'm working on a reno that was originally quoted at $250,000 and 3 months is now at 7 months and $400,000!! (I'm not the contractor) Lol.

:werd:
we document & have signed off all revisions to work after starting, and so many homeowners are surprised that they are revision #7 of a small/medium sized job!
this of course affects the time to complete and costs too, so it's not very often the contractor's fault for extending those aspects, in my experience

[D. Dub]

Originally posted by Cos
[B]

My uncle is a GC for a well known Reno Outfit in town and I think their prices run $35.00/$50.00 a sq ft




That's about the right range with the middle to higher end getting you "new home" quality finish.