Recommend a DSLR for a newbie

[Jlude]

Taking my mom on a 3 week tour of England, Ireland and Scotland (a couple days in Paris as well) and I want to take a lot of pictures for her to look back on the trip.

Right now I have a cheap little point n shoot, but I want something that's fully automatic, decently sized, I'd like to be able to to stick it in my backpack if possible. Anyways, you get the picture.

Price - Under $1000 - The cheaper the better, but want something of good quality. Maybe when I get back from the trip, I'll continue to use it.

Please post up recommendations with links to where I could buy the camera. TIA

[The_Rural_Juror]

"Decently sized" options:

Not a DSLR per say, but a very good advanced point and shoot with some DSLR functions.

Great deal at $399.

http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product/canon-canon-powershot-s90-10-0mp-digital-camera-black-s90/10129619.aspx?path=1e16da972d9cb528a7835d0017ac9ae2en02


This is small and not a bad deal either. Down side is no flash.
Interchangable lenses, but they don't come cheap........

Good deal at $650.

http://vistek.ca/store/DigitalSLRs/244905/olympus-ep1-silver-micro-fourthirds-dslr-w-silver-1442mm-lens.aspx

- Not Dave

[Lagerstatten.ca]

Originally posted by The_Rural_Juror
This is small and not a bad deal either. Down side is no flash.
Interchangable lenses, but they don't come cheap........

Good deal at $650.

http://vistek.ca/store/DigitalSLRs/244905/olympus-ep1-silver-micro-fourthirds-dslr-w-silver-1442mm-lens.aspx [/B]

What about the Olympus E-PL1 - same price and it has a built in pop-up flash too!

Vistek - Olympus E-PL1 (Black) (http://vistek.ca/store/DigitalSLRs/248586/olympus-epl1-black-micro-fourthirds-dslr-w-black-1442mm-lens.aspx)

[nykz]

Some of the Rebel series from Canon are fairly priced for what they offer and would fall into your category of a newbie camera. Or perhaps you could try for the Nikon D90, I'm not that experienced myself so I can't really offer much advice. I'm currently looking into getting a D90 as it has a 3inch LCD screen with live view and other aspects that make it quite appealing for someone getting into photography. If your lucky you could find one for a fair price around $900 used with a lens.

[KKY]

Please buy my 30D. Great quality. Reasonable price. OBO too! :thumbsup:

[The_Rural_Juror]

Originally posted by Lagerstatten.ca


What about the Olympus E-PL1 - same price and it has a built in pop-up flash too!

Vistek - Olympus E-PL1 (Black) (http://vistek.ca/store/DigitalSLRs/248586/olympus-epl1-black-micro-fourthirds-dslr-w-black-1442mm-lens.aspx)

I don't recall the exact differences other than the inconvenience of not having a few extra dials. All I know is that the PL1 is marketed as the P1 Lite. On-board flash is over-rated anyway.

OT: Does anyone know if I can use the elinchrom skyports on these to activate a Canon/Nikon flash remotely?


- Not Dave

[Jlude]

This one comes with a lens, has flash, and isn't too big.

Thoughts? Probably far more camera than I'll use eh?

http://vistek.ca/store/DigitalSLRs/243098/canon-eos-digital-rebel-t1i-w1855mm.aspx

[msommers]

- Fuji Finepix F200EXR (http://www.thecamerastore.com/products/cameras/digital-cameras/compact-digital-cameras/fuji-finepix-f200exr)
- Panasonic Lumix LX3 (http://www.thecamerastore.com/products/cameras/digital-cameras/compact-digital-cameras/panasonic-lumix-lx3)

Also, search!

EDIT:
Panasonic GF1 (http://www.thecamerastore.com/products/cameras/rangefinder-cameras/panasonic-gf1-20mm-f17-kit-black)
This isn't cheap by any means, but it's a darn nice camera.

I think it really should depend if you think you're going to get into photography, to bother with camera like the GF1 or a full-blown SLR. If its just for a trip on full auto all the time and that's your end goal/care, I would suggest either of the first 2. Fantastic cameras and much less than 1000 bucks.

IMO, Point n shoots seem to do a better job on Auto than most DSLRs

[95EG6P]

IMO the Canon T1i or the T2i :D

[Mitsu3000gt]

A Nikon D5000 w/ 18-105 VR is $943 and a D90 w/ 18-105VR is $1,130. I don't think you'll do better than that for bang for the buck. Both are better than the T1i and comes with a better lens.

The option that might suit you best, though, is what Matt is suggesting - a higher end point and shoot. It will cost less, be smaller, and if you're just going to leave it on auto all the time, you will likely be satisfied.

[rage2]

I love the GF-1.

http://forums.beyond.ca/st/283852/panasonic-lumix-dmc-gf1-micro-4-3rds-in-action-in-vegas/

[Go4Long]

the GF-1 if it's as far as you want to go with photography.

The D90 if you think there's a chance to continue on and grow as a photographer. The D90 is the best bang for the buck DSLR on the market right now period...anyone that says otherwise is getting challenged to a duel :poosie:

[EvolizePhoto]

88jbody on here is selling his old rebel xt with battery grip and 18-55 kit lens for $300 if I recall correctly. The camera does actually take some impressive photographs for what it is.

Just pm Gord if you're interested (88jbody)

[Go4Long]

his cheap little point and shoot will probably take better pictures than a 5 year old 8 megapixel Rebel XT. Lots of the places to go and take pictures in europe are low light environments, and the Rebel XT just isn't going to cut it in terms of high ISO performance...good price for the camera, but not a good camera for the job,

[EvolizePhoto]

Originally posted by Go4Long
his cheap little point and shoot will probably take better pictures than a 5 year old 8 megapixel Rebel XT. Lots of the places to go and take pictures in europe are low light environments, and the Rebel XT just isn't going to cut it in terms of high ISO performance...good price for the camera, but not a good camera for the job, Buying the newest best gear doesn't necessarily provide the best photo. I used a 6 year old 20D in various light conditions that was plenty capable of producing nice images.

[Go4Long]

I'm not getting in to another fuckin argument with you dave...facts are facts...congratulations on the 20D working out for you...but the Rebel XT produces more noise at 800 ISO than the D90 at 1600-3200...those are the facts.

[EvolizePhoto]

Either camera is going to perform poorly in pitch black conditions or scenarios such as a dark town road at night. I'm not arguing with you, just trying to understand why every problem must be solved with the purchase of new equipment when brand new equipment is not necessary.

[EvolizePhoto]

The new T2i is amazing too. I've checked it out and used one briefly. I believe it uses the same sensor as the canon 7D as well as video functionality. Might want to look into one of those if a 5 year old pos rebel xt is not for you. canon has the video market cornered, it's definately a great feature to have.

[Go4Long]

Originally posted by EvolizePhoto
Either camera is going to perform poorly in pitch black conditions or scenarios such as a dark town road at night. I'm not arguing with you, just trying to understand why every problem must be solved with the purchase of new equipment when brand new equipment is not necessary.

aren't you the guy that's looking to buy a D300? the D300 incidentally uses the same sensor as the D90, and a large portion of the same software.

I'm sorry mods...I'm not trying to start a fight here, but if this not arguing thing means I have to let people talk out their ass and offer bad advice you might as well just ban me because clearly this isn't the kind of forum I need to take part in.

[EvolizePhoto]

Originally posted by Go4Long


aren't you the guy that's looking to buy a D300? the D300 incidentally uses the same sensor as the D90, and a large portion of the same software.

I'm sorry mods...I'm not trying to start a fight here, but if this not arguing thing means I have to let people talk out their ass and offer bad advice you might as well just ban me because clearly this isn't the kind of forum I need to take part in. I am not offering bad advice. I am offering options. And yes, so what I'm looking to buy a d300? Really, what does that have to do with this? Name one 1.6 crop sensor dslr that will take a photo downtown at night with high iso and look clean. That's right, there isn't one. You don't get exceptional iso performance unless you spend big money on a full frame camera.
I did not suggest he stay away from the d90.
Now I don't see what the big deal is here. Your solution is to throw a grand down on something NEW. Mine is to shop around and find something used. I'm seriously doing my best here to remain civil about things, and so far I've been keeping my cool in regards to some of your posting, I will remain civil as well. If you choose to act like an imbecile that is your own prerogative.

I'm now ignoring further posts from you. Take care Steve.

[Go4Long]

Originally posted by EvolizePhoto
And yes, so what I'm looking to buy a d300? Really, what does that have to do with this?

because you're trying to convince him that a D90 isn't worth the money, while trying to upgrade your 40D(which is about 5 models up the scale from a rebel XT) to a more expensive camera with the same sensor...seems like some slanted perspective there to me.

[The_Rural_Juror]

Solution: Buy KKY's 30D. Buy my 17-40.

[blitz]

Panasonic Lx-3 is a good travel camera. There might even be one for sale in the BST ;)

[atgilchrist]

I've got an Olympus E-520 that I really like. It's last year's model (I think the E-620 has replaced it), but it has a good range a features from auto to fully manual that have helped me progress with my photos.


On special at FS right now for $549 with a decent lense:
http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/product/olympus-e-520-10-0mp-dslr-camera-with-17-45mm-lens-kit/10124195.aspx?path=4db8f9938466ac7c624d97c0587874b0en02

Edit: the E-620 has 12.3MP vs. 10MP, and a swivel screen, as well as some other features. I like that the image stabilization is built into the body, lenses tend to be less expensive.
http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/product/olympus-e-620-12-3mp-dslr-camera-with-14-42mm-lens-kit/10124765.aspx?path=0ecf485114fd5dec928b9889b724ff03en02

[Mitsu3000gt]

I was recently asked to teach a small group of people the basics of photography (I'm talking shutter speed, aperture, etc.) and they had a Canon XSi as their company camera. I read the manual cover to cover and spent some time with it beforehand to make sure I could fully answer any specific questions. I thought it was brutal. Ergonomics were terrible, quickly changing settings is not intuitive, it felt like it was made by Fisher Price, the command dial feels like its going to snap off every time you turn it, AF was slow, AF hunted a lot in anything but perfect light, and the operation just felt lethargic in general. The pop up flash needs to be up for AF assist as well. I can't imagine what the original XT would be like, having an even smaller/cheaper body. I wouldn't waste your time with the XT/XTi/XSi cameras but that is just my opinion. I can't imagine the T1i is a night and day difference from those either, but I don't have first hand experience with them to comment.

The sensors are obviously good, but there is so much more to a camera than just IQ, which everyone does pretty well anyways. That was more evident than ever to me after spending some time with that XSi, so I wouldn't recommend something from that category at all.

If you are going to spend anywhere near $1000, the D90 is the way to go unless you don't think you are going to stick with photography or want something extremely compact.

[The_Rural_Juror]

I recently talked someone away from the XSi and into a D90, even though I'm not a whacky Nikonian. It's that much better. :nut:

[Jlude]

Originally posted by rage2
I love the GF-1.

http://forums.beyond.ca/st/283852/panasonic-lumix-dmc-gf1-micro-4-3rds-in-action-in-vegas/



Originally posted by atgilchrist
I've got an Olympus E-520 that I really like. It's last year's model (I think the E-620 has replaced it), but it has a good range a features from auto to fully manual that have helped me progress with my photos.


Edit: the E-620 has 12.3MP vs. 10MP, and a swivel screen, as well as some other features. I like that the image stabilization is built into the body, lenses tend to be less expensive.
http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/product/olympus-e-620-12-3mp-dslr-camera-with-14-42mm-lens-kit/10124765.aspx?path=0ecf485114fd5dec928b9889b724ff03en02


I love both of these cameras. Both small enough to have in my backpack, in my price range and capable of doing exactly what I want. I'll go check these out this weekend and get a feel for them.

Rage, do you still have that camera? If so, interested in selling?





:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Knew some of the photogs on the site were gonna start bickering... also knew one of them would be Dave.

I really, really doubt I'd take up photography afterwards, unless I actually enjoy it or something. Who knows, but I'm sure it'll never get beyond a hobby, so as it grows, I'll get the gear accordingly.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

[Go4Long]

Originally posted by The_Rural_Juror
I recently talked someone away from the XSi and into a D90, even though I'm not a whacky Nikonian. It's that much better. :nut:

yup...I've owned every model of digital rebel at some point or another up to the XSi, and the D40x, the D80, the D300, and now the D3s. D300 like performance in the smaller body size of the D90 is truly a hard thing to beat in terms of entry level cameras.


Originally posted by Jlude
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Knew some of the photogs on the site were gonna start bickering... also knew one of them would be Dave.

I fell off the being good wagon...I sorry.

[Jlude]

Now what's the best lense for me to pick up for either of those cameras? I've explained what I'll be doing and I don't wanna be switching out lenses.

[Go4Long]

that's a whole new discussion lol. I've heard the 18-200 is a "decent" choice in terms of an all around lens(meaning it's good at a lot of things, but not necessarily great at anything in particular)

After that it becomes about choices. I've got a CHEAP 28-80 that you can have if you go the Nikon route(look...I've resorted to bribery ;) ) which is actually a pretty acceptable bargain lens. there's plenty of 18-70's kicking around for a decent price, which again are awesome lenses on a budget.

Glass is easy to spend a fortune on...I've got easily twice as much money invested in glass as I do in the body...I incorporated at the begining of the year and had to actually total up the dollar value of all my gear...I cried a little...lol

[msommers]

Originally posted by Jlude
Now what's the best lense for me to pick up for either of those cameras? I've explained what I'll be doing and I don't wanna be switching out lenses.


Originally posted by Jlude
Taking my mom on a 3 week tour of England, Ireland and Scotland (a couple days in Paris as well) and I want to take a lot of pictures for her to look back on the trip.

You haven't really specified what you're taking pictures of, but given that you're on a vacation/tour I don't think you'd need a long focal length. A lens, something like ~16mm-~85mm would probably cover quite a good range for what you're doing.

Which 2 cameras were you looking into? For point n shoots, they're great in that you never have to change lenses and offer a very good zoom range, while being very small. Don't overlook them man, SLRs aren't the be all and end all and don't guarantee perfect shots every time.

[clem24]

If you want something really small, you cannot go wrong with the LX3. Very wide lens and very bright. Focus is reasonably fast. High ISO is usable if you're not picky. For outdoor shots, it is very hard to beat. PQ is absolutely phenomenal for such a smallish camera. Buy a small add-on flash, and you've got yourself a very potent and compact setup. This is perfect for traveling and easily concealable, especially in England where theft is quite high. The 720p videos are a huge plus.

The GF1 is also a great alternative. But for me, it was a.) still too big to be a compact (and especially with anything other than the pancake) and b.) is has no lens that is equivalent in focal length + speed to the LX3's 24-60mm f/2-2.8. I'll consider the GF1 myself when they come out with a very compact 12-24'ish f/2.8. But I think that isn't go to happen.

If you're not used to carrying around a DSLR, you'll likely find them very bulky. You'll need to buy a camera bag for it, etc... There's also a learning curve too because a DSLR's bigger sensor provides shallower DOF. So if you're leaving in a hurry, not recommended.

[Jlude]

What about this... GF-1 c/w 20mm "pancake" lens?

You think this will be sufficient for what I'll be doing?

The more I check this camera out, the more I like it.

http://www.adencamera.com/prod-overview.asp?ProdID=3004

[clem24]

Originally posted by Jlude
What about this... GF-1 c/w 20mm "pancake" lens?

You think this will be sufficient for what I'll be doing?

The more I check this camera out, the more I like it.

http://www.adencamera.com/prod-overview.asp?ProdID=3004

Have you ever shot with a prime (no zoom) before? What kind of P&S camera do you have? To imagine what a prime would be like, take your P&S, leave it on wide all the time, and see how you like it. For a vacation, I think the pancake is way too limiting. But the GF1 has been mentioned many times in this thread including my response.

BTW buy it here as it's local:

http://www.thecamerastore.com/products/cameras/rangefinder-cameras/panasonic-gf1-20mm-f17-kit-black

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Jlude
Now what's the best lense for me to pick up for either of those cameras? I've explained what I'll be doing and I don't wanna be switching out lenses.

I have nothing but praises with my D90. Video performance is weak but pictures are top notch. I don't think I'll grow out of this for quite some time.

As lenses, that standard 18-105 is pretty decent. But if you are traveling, I would look for something 18-2xx range so you can travel light and have enough range when you are stuck on a boat cruise or bus tour. A wide angle <18mm will buy some flexibility in tight streets.

One good thing to invest on the D90 is a good flash. Especially if you have a long zoom lens. The pop up flash tends to cast a shadow on picture with long lens.


Originally posted by clem24
If you're not used to carrying around a DSLR, you'll likely find them very bulky. You'll need to buy a camera bag for it, etc... There's also a learning curve too because a DSLR's bigger sensor provides shallower DOF. So if you're leaving in a hurry, not recommended.

:werd:

[Jlude]

Originally posted by msommers



You haven't really specified what you're taking pictures of, but given that you're on a vacation/tour I don't think you'd need a long focal length. A lens, something like ~16mm-~85mm would probably cover quite a good range for what you're doing.

Which 2 cameras were you looking into? For point n shoots, they're great in that you never have to change lenses and offer a very good zoom range, while being very small. Don't overlook them man, SLRs aren't the be all and end all and don't guarantee perfect shots every time.

Well, I don't have an exact outline for the trip, but it'll be a few days in London, then off to Cork, Ireland for a few days, then to paris for 4 or 5 days then Barcelona and finally back to London. I wanna take pictures and video of the whole trip, try to capture everything. I would imagine the conditions aren't going to be ideal most of the time.


Originally posted by clem24
If you want something really small, you cannot go wrong with the LX3. Very wide lens and very bright. Focus is reasonably fast. High ISO is usable if you're not picky. For outdoor shots, it is very hard to beat. PQ is absolutely phenomenal for such a smallish camera. Buy a small add-on flash, and you've got yourself a very potent and compact setup. This is perfect for traveling and easily concealable, especially in England where theft is quite high. The 720p videos are a huge plus.

The GF1 is also a great alternative. But for me, it was a.) still too big to be a compact (and especially with anything other than the 17mm pancake) and b.) is has no lens that is equivalent in focal length + speed to the LX3's 24-60mm f/2-2.8. I'll consider the GF1 myself when they come out with a very compact 12-24'ish f/2.8. But I think that isn't go to happen.

If you're not used to carrying around a DSLR, you'll likely find them very bulky. You'll need to buy a camera bag for it, etc... There's also a learning curve too because a DSLR's bigger sensor provides shallower DOF. So if you're leaving in a hurry, not recommended.

Not leaving till the first week of June, so I'll go grab the camera this weekend or early next week so I can spend lots of time getting used to it.


I'll reiterate, I don't want something super fancy, I just want a good quality camera that will give me a better chance of taking nicer photographs during my trip. I just want a lens that's good for general use.

[Jlude]

Originally posted by clem24


Have you ever shot with a prime (no zoom) before? What kind of P&amp;S camera do you have? To imagine what a prime would be like, take your P&amp;S, leave it on wide all the time, and see how you like it. For a vacation, I think the pancake is way too limiting. But the GF1 has been mentioned many times in this thread including my response.

BTW buy it here as it's local:

http://www.thecamerastore.com/products/cameras/rangefinder-cameras/panasonic-gf1-20mm-f17-kit-black

No I have not shot with a prime before.

I don't remember what kind of p&s I have... picked it up from walmart for $1XX.00, only bought it because I wanted to take pictures of my new puppy.

If the pancake is too limiting, then what would you suggest for a trip like mine?

[poison]

d5000

[lint]

Originally posted by msommers
For point n shoots, they're great in that you never have to change lenses and offer a very good zoom range, while being very small. Don't overlook them man, SLRs aren't the be all and end all and don't guarantee perfect shots every time.

+1 Everything you've said you wanted screams p&s, not DSLR. Size, auto, not having to change lenses. Find a nicer/newer p&s with a wide angle lens, good video, extra memory cards and enjoy the trip with your mom. If you want to get into photography do it afterwards, don't try to learn it on the trip.

Personally I hate carrying a ton of shit on holidays. Point and shoot, capture the moments with my family. I fiddle with photography at home.

[KKY]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
I thought it was brutal. Ergonomics were terrible, quickly changing settings is not intuitive, it felt like it was made by Fisher Price, the command dial feels like its going to snap off every time you turn it, AF was slow, AF hunted a lot in anything but perfect light, and the operation just felt lethargic in general. The pop up flash needs to be up for AF assist as well. I had no idea the rebels are that bad! And I've owned a couple of them. Anyone has a D90 and a lens I can borrow for a week? :D

back on topic: please consider my 30D and The_Rural_Juror's 17-40.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by KKY
I had no idea the rebels are that bad! And I've owned a couple of them. Anyone has a D90 and a lens I can borrow for a week? :D

back on topic: please consider my 30D and The_Rural_Juror's 17-40.

Those were just my impressions after spending some actual time with it and compared with everything else I've tried. I was actually kind of expecting it to not be as bad as I thought, but it was quite the opposite. Build quality, AF, and ergonomics really threw me off. YMMV of course, and its not to say you can't get great pictures with it.

Careful, if you borrow a D90, you might want to buy one :)

[rage2]

Originally posted by Jlude
Rage, do you still have that camera? If so, interested in selling?
Yes, and no. lol

But, if you want to try it out, I'd be more than happy to meet up over the weekend and let u test it.

I have both the pancake kit lens as well as the zoom, so you can try both and see which kit to pick up.

[nykz]

I can get someone a D90 with 18-105mm VR lens for a fair price, I was looking into purchasing it, but now I'm kinda debating whether I want it or not. Apparently it was purchased under a year ago, with receipt to prove, low accusations, and has original box and manuals. $950 is the price we negotiated down to, compared to the 1128.22 + GST price at The Camera store brand new. Just a suggestion!

[EvolizePhoto]

Originally posted by Jlude






I love both of these cameras. Both small enough to have in my backpack, in my price range and capable of doing exactly what I want. I'll go check these out this weekend and get a feel for them.

Rage, do you still have that camera? If so, interested in selling?





:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Knew some of the photogs on the site were gonna start bickering... also knew one of them would be Dave.

I really, really doubt I'd take up photography afterwards, unless I actually enjoy it or something. Who knows, but I'm sure it'll never get beyond a hobby, so as it grows, I'll get the gear accordingly.

Thanks for all the suggestions. Thanks, but I was not bickering you have me confused with somebody else.....

Thanks
-Dave

[The_Rural_Juror]

Originally posted by EvolizePhoto
Thanks, but I was not bickering you have me confused with somebody else.....

I get confused when you don't sign your name after your postings. You have had too many accounts.

XSi Cheap (http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B001U88YW2/ref=s9_simvh_gw_p23_i1?pf_rd_m=A3DWYIK6Y9EEQB&pf_rd_s=center-3&pf_rd_r=04EZ9XQEP86FWMNTN670&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=463383531&pf_rd_i=915398)


Cheaper to buy GF1 from the US. (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/648490-REG/Panasonic_DMC_GF1K_K_Lumix_DMC_GF1_Digital_Camera.html)

- Not Dave

[Sugarphreak]

...

[EvolizePhoto]

Yes, a nikon must be purchased. Superior brand, allows the user to take infintely better photographs.

Thanks
-dave

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
I was going to ask why nobody was recommending the D60... but I guess it is already obsolete.

When I was looking for my first DSLR I picked up a D60 in early 2008 for like 750$... it has been a work horse camera for me, love it to death.

I would throw my support behind the D90, Nikon all the way. Although that sucks you can't get it in the D40 or D60 price range though.

Th D5000 replaced the D40x and D60, and the D3000 replaces the D40. The D5000 now has more features than the D60, and is almost a D90, but therein lies the prblem, because it's better to spend the extra $200 and get the D90. Can't really go wrong though.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by EvolizePhoto
Yes, a nikon must be purchased. Superior brand, allows the user to take infintely better photographs.

Thanks
-dave

Lots of people say that exact same thing whenever a Nikon/Canon related arguement comes up (which is often on here LOL), but I don't think anyone ever really makes the arguement that "owning a Nikon automatically produces better photographs than Canon" or vise versa. That said, everyone would have a $100 P&S camera if equipment made absolutely no difference whatsoever, but we don't, because DSLR IQ, AF performance, etc. are vastly superior to that of a P&S. So, I don't see the issue with saying one camera, brand, lens, or whatever is better than another if its true and helps someone with their buying decision. If one camera has better AF and way better ISO performance than another, just as an example, yes its going to be easier in some situations to get the picture you want thanks to your equipment.

Right now, Nikon really has their shit together, so for a first time buyer, why not buy the best available model within your price range at the time? I think thats all anyone is getting at with the "Nikon all the way" type comments.

I also think reading through debates similar to the one transpiring in this thread is one of the best way to make a purchase decision - illuminates all points on both sides.

All this is pointless anyways, because I think the OP is going to buy a GF1 or similar :)

[Tomaz]

Jlude,

By the sounds of it, you are not looking into getting too deep, i would pick up a entry level. I have been having great fun with my fathers Sony Alpha A380.

http://www.thecamerastore.com/products/cameras/digital-cameras/digital-slr-cameras/sony-alpha-a380-18-55-mm-f35-56

Even a Nikon D3000 will do the trick. Or a D5000. All of these even have on-screen helpers for photo-newbs and they teach you how to get better shots as you go!

Hope this helps!

[The_Rural_Juror]

Another alternative is to buy a disposable and a copy of photoshop. Much more effective.

[EvolizePhoto]

The arguement between nikon and canon is retarded imho. The reason one person chooses another is because of features and ergonomics. Both brands will perform amazingly, its up to the buyer to decide which is a better fit in terms of how it performs for THEM, and the features that each camera has that the other doesn't.

Which is my reason for trying to hang up the 40D and move to a d300

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by EvolizePhoto
The arguement between nikon and canon is retarded imho. The reason one person chooses another is because of features and ergonomics. Both brands will perform amazingly, its up to the buyer to decide which is a better fit in terms of how it performs for THEM, and the features that each camera has that the other doesn't.

Which is my reason for trying to hang up the 40D and move to a d300

Just curious, what made you decide to move to a D300? Flash system? Lenses? AF? Ergos? Nice choice though.

[EvolizePhoto]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt


Just curious, what made you decide to move to a D300? Nice choice though. I'll post why, as I feel it relates to the topic of discussion.

1. Ergonomics. The Nikon's controls felt easier accessible and more thought out when I use the D200/D300.
2. 51 point AF and 3D live tracking. I'll be doing alot of track work this summer, 51af points and the 3d tracking looks very appealing in regards to obtaining panning shots etc.
3. CLS. Mind you I will not be using cls through my sb80's as they only operate optically, being able to pick up an extra sb600 flash unit, and use it for those quick pictures with the ability to control that flash unit fully from the camera body is a huge plus.
4. Nikon glass. I've done some extensive tests, comparing the nikon 50 f1.8 and the canon f1.8 using a 40D and a D200 (both almost comparable cameras) at same locations, same settings and photos afterwards produced by the nikon had better renditions than the canon in terms of sharpness, quality and overall feel of the photograph. I've done lots of reading about nikon's glass and looked at sample photos, and from what I've seen Nikon seems to be building some of the highest quality optics I've come across. Meanwhile nikon lenses are VERY expensive compared to the canon brand, I feel you definately get what you pay for.

I also got to play with a nikon d90, very impressive camera. The video function is a bit jello but the photos I've seen produced almost made me buy one. I know the D90 is comparable to the rebel and is suposed to be a competitor in the prosumer market, but when I picked up a gripped d90 and shot with it, it did not feel like a cheap plastic toy (the canon rebels do!!!).

Anyways, maybe some of those reasons (I have more but will keep it short) will help Jlude in determining what he wants.

Jlude, you also have to remember to go out and play with the camera at the store. It's like buying a car without a test drive haha. Good luck.

Thanks

-Dave

[Mitsu3000gt]

^^^ A very reasonable list indeed, those are many of the same reasons I decided to stick with Nikon when I was just getting into things. My first camera was a D80, and when I upgraded from there I could have easily gone either way.

The D90 doesn't really compare with a Rebel except for price (similar to the T2i), as its performance most closely compares with the 40D/50D/7D from Canon.

I do disagree with Nikon glass being significantly more expensive than the closest Canon equivalent though. Lots of people say that that but they are essentially equal. Just to pick a some popular ones, I don't think there is nearly as big a price disparity as people think.

Canon's 70-200/2.8 is $100 more than Nikon

Nikon's 24-70 is $284 more than Canons and a much better lens.

Nikon's 14-24 is only $100 more than Canon's 16-35 and is far superior.

Canon's 70-300 IS is $250 more than Nikon's 70-300VR and the Nikon version is better.

Nikon's 18-200 VR is $50 more than the Canon version, fairly insignificant given the $800 price tags.

Nikon's new 24/1.4 is $200 more than the Canon version (sure to be better as well).

Canon's 200/2 is $1,360 more than the Nikon version

Nikon's 500/4 is $1,000 more than the Canon version

The big 400/2.8's and 600/4 are within $100 of eachother from either brand

The Canon 100-400 is $300 more than the Nikon 80-400

So, as you can see, the price disparities are really quite small overall, especially considering the overall cost of many of these lenses, and it does go both ways. Sometmes Canon is more expensive, and sometimes Nikon is, but given the lens costs the difference is usually a very small percentage. In most of the above scenarios though, the Nikon versions are the better lenses, so if there is a small premium it is easier to justify.

[EvolizePhoto]

Wow prices sure have changed since I last looked. Nikon really did lower prices.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by EvolizePhoto
Wow prices sure have changed since I last looked. Nikon really did lower prices.

Yeah its not nearly as bad as some people think, they have a couple lenses (300/2.8 and 500/4) that are way more than the Canon variants, but Canon has some (like the 200/2) that are way more than the Nikon version. Everything else is pretty much a wash, or close enough that most consumers wouldn't care given the overall cost of the lens or the difference in quality.

[EvolizePhoto]

True true. Anyways I'm still shooting with this 40D. I had sold it, then 3 different nikon D300's I was supposed to buy got sold from under me as I was on my way to purchase them, so I bought back the 40D and will continue using it for the summer lol.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by EvolizePhoto
True true. Anyways I'm still shooting with this 40D. I had sold it, then 3 different nikon D300's I was supposed to buy got sold from under me as I was on my way to purchase them, so I bought back the 40D and will continue using it for the summer lol.

Lol...thats some bad luck.

Do you check the Nikonians for sale section? They have a Canadian specific FS area as well, and they pop up for sale regularily. Nothing right now though it seems, except for one posted in November that is probably sold:

http://www.nikonians.org/forums/dcboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=221

[Sugarphreak]

....

[Go4Long]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt


Lol...thats some bad luck.

Do you check the Nikonians for sale section? They have a Canadian specific FS area as well, and they pop up for sale regularily. Nothing right now though it seems, except for one posted in November that is probably sold:

http://www.nikonians.org/forums/dcboard.php?az=show_topics&amp;forum=221

The other place I always recommend is Fred Miranda's buy and sell. Down side is that, like most of the internet, there's been some scammers floating around on all the boards. So generally attempting to buy stuff with 0 feedback is trickier. Fred Miranda's B&S is the most active photo B&S that I've ever seen, even at 3:00 in the morning there's very seldom a time when there isn't a post every 20 minutes(and during the day it's like every minute).

That has it's pluses and minuses though, positive being that there's constantly new stuff being posted. Negative is that a lot of the good deals get snapped up before you ever see them.

[G-Suede]

Grab Blitz's LX3.

The GF-1 is a very nice unit, but these images may help you make a decision (LX3 on left):

http://i40.tinypic.com/15xtp48.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/28w037n.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/jl5tsi.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/256aeyf.jpg

[Jlude]

Originally posted by rage2

Yes, and no. lol

But, if you want to try it out, I'd be more than happy to meet up over the weekend and let u test it.

I have both the pancake kit lens as well as the zoom, so you can try both and see which kit to pick up.

I'm not in town this weekend and won't be until late April. If I don't have something by then, I'll msg you about meeting up. Thanks.



Originally posted by The_Rural_Juror


I get confused when you don't sign your name after your postings. You have had too many accounts.

XSi Cheap (http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B001U88YW2/ref=s9_simvh_gw_p23_i1?pf_rd_m=A3DWYIK6Y9EEQB&amp;pf_rd_s=center-3&amp;pf_rd_r=04EZ9XQEP86FWMNTN670&amp;pf_rd_t=101&amp;pf_rd_p=463383531&amp;pf_rd_i=915398)


Cheaper to buy GF1 from the US. (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/648490-REG/Panasonic_DMC_GF1K_K_Lumix_DMC_GF1_Digital_Camera.html)



- Not Dave
I may be heading down to Cali in the next week or two, if so I'll probably pick up whichever camera I decide on at that time. Looks like I'll save a couple hundred.



Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt

All this is pointless anyways, because I think the OP is going to buy a GF1 or similar :)

I'm leaning towards the GF1, but not sold yet. I have short list now to check out this weekend.


Originally posted by Tomaz
Jlude,

By the sounds of it, you are not looking into getting too deep, i would pick up a entry level. I have been having great fun with my fathers Sony Alpha A380.

http://www.thecamerastore.com/products/cameras/digital-cameras/digital-slr-cameras/sony-alpha-a380-18-55-mm-f35-56

Even a Nikon D3000 will do the trick. Or a D5000. All of these even have on-screen helpers for photo-newbs and they teach you how to get better shots as you go!

Hope this helps!

Thanks Thomas, that's added to the list of cameras to check out.



Originally posted by G-Suede
Grab Blitz's LX3.

The GF-1 is a very nice unit, but these images may help you make a decision (LX3 on left):

http://i40.tinypic.com/15xtp48.jpg


In the short amount of research I did, I thought the GF1 was much smaller than it really is. The LX3 looks great if it's just as capable, or pretty damn close at least. Thanks for the suggestion.


I'm getting pretty excited about buying a camera now... which isn't a good thing. Just another thing for me to spend money on.

[G-Suede]

Originally posted by Jlude

I'm leaning towards the GF1, but not sold yet. I have short list now to check out this weekend.


In the short amount of research I did, I thought the GF1 was much smaller than it really is. The LX3 looks great if it's just as capable, or pretty damn close at least. Thanks for the suggestion.

Yeah, I had the same thing happen to me. I went down The Camera Store and was a bit dissapointed that it was quite a bit bigger than anticipated.

There is also a nice Olympus E-450 on the Beyond B&S right now too:

http://a.img-dpreview.com/previews/PanasonicGF1/images/gf1compared.jpg

The Canon S90 is supposed to be pretty badass with its diminutive size, F2.0 lens, excellent sensor, and professional features:

http://i42.tinypic.com/crvw0.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/23r1x1d.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/xqhys0.jpg

[Go4Long]

just to put it out there....the S90/LX3 are compact sensor camera so the sensor is about 7.6 X 5.7mm, the GF1/whatever are micro 4/3 camera, so the sensor is about 17.3 X 13mm. Never having shot with either I can't specifically say that will affect image quality, but it is an awfully tiny sensor to cram a whole lot of megapixels on...

[The_Rural_Juror]

You guys have officially turned the OP into a gearwhore.

[Go4Long]

muahaha...I secretly offered him cookies to come to the dark side...shhhh

[The_Rural_Juror]

I want to be a Nikonian too. I just don't want to spend any more money. :(

Buying a Nikon is much easier than spending years practicing.

[AccentAE86]

I still really like the GF-1 for it's compactness. You can say it's still too big all you want, but there isn't really anything comparable that is significantly smaller. If you still want DSLR image quality and interchangeable lenses, it isn't going to get much better than that (sizewise). So stick to your point and shoots if image quality, lens flexibility, and higher ISO capability isn't paramount to your photography.

I've had my GF-1 for about three months now and it's definitely our most used camera. I'm about 100 times more likely to take the GF-1 somewhere rather than a 30D, rebel, D90, or whatever other DSLR cams mentioned purely because it fits easily in a bag, or even my wife's purse, despite the fact that it's still larger than an LX3.

I don't really compare it's size to point and shoots, because it's not a point and shoot. (I still have my Panasonic FX-35 and Canon A540 for that) There are specific times where I want DSLR features and quality, and times I don't need it. I use it for those times I want DSLR features and quality, NOT for when I just need a point and shoot to take regular joe snapshots that will remain completely unprocessed and probably never be used for anything but web sized viewing.

No matter what you say, it is still a small camera. Here it is compared to my 40D and siggy 30.

http://www.nightanddayphoto.ca/misc/forumpics/beyond/gf1/DSC_4134.JPG

(holy sensor dust!)
http://www.nightanddayphoto.ca/misc/forumpics/beyond/gf1/DSC_4137.JPG

The best part is that it's so THIN with the pancake lens. Thinner than the Sigma 30 1.4 alone.
http://www.nightanddayphoto.ca/misc/forumpics/beyond/gf1/DSC_4136.JPG

[The_Rural_Juror]

What I have always wondered is if the GF1 is worth the $300-400 price differential to the E-P1?

[Go4Long]

Good points accent

I want the olympus just because it's shiny...damn you add...

Wanna go ride bikes?

[The_Rural_Juror]

Sure thing. I could Go4Bikes.
After my big tub of poutine.

[clem24]

LOL I know Accent and I will always have our differences. Again, for me, I would instantly buy a GF1 if it ever comes with a pancake lens that is in the 24-60mm region (and I'll take f/4 since I know f/2 or f/2.8 is likely not possible). As it is, it is just simply too big when a zoom lens is added on. But JLude, if you don't have an SLR to begin with, then the GF1 would make a GREAT base for a good kit. However, because I already have an SLR, I think that getting one would be pointless over the LX3. So on that note, I think the GF1 is probably the best bet.

Anyway, here's some shots I took with my LX3 on my recent trip to Hawaii. Only made quick adjustments in Picasa3 (shadows and highlights) and then resize. Also, I shoot in P mode with the LX3 cause manual mode is too cumbersome. :nut:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4013/4468355969_06581bb886_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/10218218@N06/4468355969/)

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4038/4468355927_05b9c0627b_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/10218218@N06/4468355927/)

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4050/4469131370_69f83b2edb_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/10218218@N06/4469131370/)

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4003/4468355839_abf36653f1_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/10218218@N06/4468355839/)

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4003/4468355757_a0450fcd2c_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/10218218@N06/4468355757/)

[KKY]

Originally posted by The_Rural_Juror
Buying a Nikon is much easier than spending years practicing. I LOL'd. ;)