Lambo Says bye-bye to Manual transmissions.

[RecoilS14]

http://blog.caranddriver.com/the-future-of-lamborghini-more-carbon-fiber-greater-efficiency-no-forced-induction%E2%80%94and-no-manuals/

Not suprised, not complaining, not owning one in my life time, but news none the less.

[962 kid]

Originally posted by RecoilS14
Not suprised, not complaining, not owning one in my life time, but news none the less.

Right, and guess what section news about cars goes under? Your WRX thread is also a repost :thumbsup:

[RecoilS14]

wow, thanks. i've been coming to this site while now and that is the first time i've seen the automotive news forum.

forgive father, for i have failed. bad.

[Hakkola]

Makes sense, manual trans are outdated.

[2EFNFAST]

Originally posted by Hakkola
Makes sense, manual trans are outdated.

Maybe, but there's just something so satisfying about rowing the gear lever.

Paddles are cool at the beginning, but then it's kind of boring. Click...click...click...click

Sure, today's paddle shifts are lightning fast, probably faster than anybody can shift a manual, but still, manual FTW for overal driving feeling.

[Bizzareo]

when you are going 150mph+ the last thing you want to deal with is removing your hand from the wheel. Hence why most drag cars are automatic (powerglides etc).

I have yet to drive anything with paddle shift but I could imagine it being fun on a track but boring on a regular road.

[ClearBluewater]

cant drive without manual :(

[e31]

I used to love driving my 535 5-speed, until I began commuting.

Try driving Eastbound Bow trail -> Northbound Crowchild -> Eastbound Memorial during afternoon rush hour.

That sucks.

[Cody D]

Originally posted by Bizzareo
I have yet to drive anything with paddle shift but I could imagine it being fun on a track but boring on a regular road.

I've driven a new M5 and an IS-F both with paddle shift, and now I'd take it over manual on anything I bought, I find it so much more fun.

[rage2]

I drove the entire day paddle shifting today around every intersection, turn off, everywhere. I don't miss manual at all.

[Diocletian]

Originally posted by Bizzareo
when you are going 150mph+ the last thing you want to deal with is removing your hand from the wheel. Hence why most drag cars are automatic (powerglides etc).

I have yet to drive anything with paddle shift but I could imagine it being fun on a track but boring on a regular road.

Torque converter = torque multiplier

[G-Suede]

Originally posted by Diocletian
Torque converter = torque multiplier

Pi = 3.14159265358979323846264338327950288

[signature7]

Love both paddles and stick to be honest. I was hesitate with paddles at first though, now I love 'em.

[Redlyne_mr2]

Manual Lambos are a PITA to drive anyways.

[jsn]

Not that I'd own one anytime soon, but I wish they'd keep it as an option for those who prefer the traditional manual.

[j.lai]

Originally posted by jsn
Not that I'd own one anytime soon, but I wish they'd keep it as an option for those who prefer the traditional manual.
+1

But paddle shifting is the way to go for the future

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Mar]

This is something I really liked about the Zonda F Roadster that came out, they put a proper manual gearbox in it.

[atgilchrist]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
For somebody to buy a Lambo they are one of three types of persons;

1) A hardcore enthusiast

2) A show boating rich guy

3) A collector

Reality is that the demand for manual transmissions comes from the enthusiasts, who have either long given up on Lambo's or simply can't afford to throw around a half million dollar car on the track.

None the less, I am sad to see a performance car manufacturer throw out the manual tranny... I would personally never buy a performance car without one.

Except that if you were to buy one to throw around the track, you'd probably want the lowest lap times possible, which the flapy paddles will get you.

[G-Suede]

Originally posted by atgilchrist


Except that if you were to buy one to throw around the track, you'd probably want the lowest lap times possible, which the flapy paddles will get you.

Unless you like chasing your cousins around in a circle...then you could just buy an old pushrod V8 and Gittr dunnn.

[atgilchrist]

Originally posted by G-Suede


Unless you like chasing your cousins around in a circle...then you could just buy an old pushrod V8 and Gittr dunnn.

SHAKE'N'BAKE!

In all seriousness, I really like these new transmissions. I've got the DSG in my GTI, and I thought I would miss the clutch pedal more than I actually do.

[R!zz0]

Does paddle shift change gears for you?
Let's say i forget to shift...Would it do it on it's own so you don't fuck up the tranny?

[atgilchrist]

^Most, if not all, that I know of will automatically upshift when you bounce of the rev limiter amd not allow you to downshift into the rev limiter (ie 1st gear at 150k/h) to protect the drivetrain.

[Aleks]

Lambo just lost me as a customer!! I need to be one with my supercars and require the stick and 3 pedals to do so :zzz:

[rage2]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
For somebody to buy a Lambo they are one of three types of persons;

1) A hardcore enthusiast

2) A show boating rich guy

3) A collector

Reality is that the demand for manual transmissions comes from the enthusiasts, who have either long given up on Lambo's or simply can't afford to throw around a half million dollar car on the track.
I consider myself a hardcore enthusiast, and I would never choose a manual transmission car again.


Originally posted by atgilchrist
^Most, if not all, that I know of will automatically upshift when you bounce of the rev limiter amd not allow you to downshift into the rev limiter (ie 1st gear at 150k/h) to protect the drivetrain.
Other way around. Only VW/Audi boxes will upshift at redline in manual mode. These are the cars that I've tried or know:

Audi S-Tronic (DSG) - auto upshift at rev limiter
Audi R-Tronic - will bounce off rev limiter
BMW SMG - will bounce off rev limiter
BMW DCT - will bounce off rev limiter
Ferrari "F1" - will bounce off rev limiter
Lamborghini E-Gear (basically R-Tronic) - will bounce off rev limiter
Lexus Sport Direct-Shift - will bounce off rev limiter
Mercedes AMG Speedshift - will bounce off rev limiter
Mercedes AMG Speedshift MCT - will bounce off rev limiter
Nissan GT-R whatever-its-called - will bounce off rev limiter
Porsche PDK - will bounce off rev limiter
VW DSG - auto upshift at rev limiter

All of them, of course, won't let you choose too low a gear and over-rev the engine. Some will, however, queue up your downshift requests, and make the shift when it's possible without over-rev.

Technology is a wonderful thing. These gearboxes pull off inhuman shift speeds, never misses a gear, without sacraficing power to the wheels. OK, with the exception of the AMG Speedshift and Lexus Direct Shift which still use torque converters. It's time to move on from the traditional manual gearboxes.

For those that think it's more satisfying, why not take out the syncros and drive like the good old days where it takes real skill? There's nothing more satisfying than nailing a double clutch heel toe on every downshift AND have the benefit of faster shift times that can come close to the paddle shifters...

0j-3xIZK-Bk

[Sugarphreak]

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[rage2]

Yea, it was exhilarating when I first learned how to heel-toe downshift. But after 15 years of "practice" and pretty much becoming second nature, it doesn't add to the driving experience at all except to impress your passenger.

There's so much more to the driving experience than shifting a manual transmission with a conventional clutch. Put that aside, and I found other areas of driving to be much more rewarding.

[Sugarphreak]

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[wes_v]

Manual transmission is fun.... but not fun in the city and traffic of course.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
I also enjoy that direct feeling from the gas pedal to the engine. You tap the gas, you feel it in the car... with an automatic the response just feels soggy.
Uhh, that soggy feeling started disappearing like 10 years ago. :rofl:

Even the automatic based IS-F and Mercedes 63's feel direct with their full lockup torque converters, full rev matched downshifts and harsh full power upshifts.

The automated manuals (SMG, e-gear, r-tronic) feel exactly like a manual because, it's a manual with hydraulics doing the same work you are. The DSGs, same thing. It's a direct connection like a manual. Flywheel --> Clutch --> Gears --> diff --> Wheels.

One of the advantages with these new gearboxes is that there is no need for a large flywheel to help shifting manually. These engines LOVE to rev. My C63 has pretty much no flywheel, as the computer will match the revs perfectly making the flywheel redundant. Because of this, in lower gears, there's much more throttle response than your typical manual car.

[Sugarphreak]

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[rage2]

You're talking about automatic transmissions. We're talking about the new rash of semi-auto transmissions. Completely different monsters.

[Sugarphreak]

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[scat19]

IMO it's one more variable you can be better at around a track than someone else with the same car.

[bretturbo]

Originally posted by rage2



For those that think it's more satisfying, why not take out the syncros and drive like the good old days where it takes real skill? There's nothing more satisfying than nailing a double clutch heel toe on every downshift AND have the benefit of faster shift times that can come close to the paddle shifters...



Nailing double clutch heel toe downshifts while hard on the breaks going into a corner is pretty much the only thing that gets me out of bed in the morning, imo if you really do appreciate driving there is no other way to go, unless you're running a race team and the extra few seconds per lap will make or break you. Cars I buy I buy to thrash and have a blast driving, other than wanting to try a real dual clutch paddle shift car on a track I could never stray from a true manuel.

[dirtsniffer]

one point not made in this thread was cost! on an e90 m3 the dual clutch trans is a 4,000 option! I was reading about 'car and drivers' long term m3 and how its trans was slipping a bit on hills; it was going to cost them another 4000 dollars to fix the clutches!

I have a feeling ill be part of the last generation to know how to drive a manual, heck lots of my friends dont even know how.. Oh well, when the zombies show up I may come in handy

[TravisJ]

I love paddle shift cars. After owning one, I wouldn't even think about rowing gears old school style.

[benyl]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak

I think one of the major motivating factors for Lamborghini is that a lot of people today just don't know how to drive a manual.

While I would agree to a certain extent being that North America, more specifically California, is Lambo's biggest market. I have to disagree that this is the main motivator.

Automatics are really only prevalent in North America. In Europe, EVERYONE knows how to drive a stick. Expensive gas will do that.

Double clutch trannies are more efficient than a Manual and probably part of the impetus. The MPG requirements that the US is forcing is getting all manufacturers to save fuel where ever they can.

In 5-10 years, you will see that most cars will have Direct injection, turbos, Exhaust re-circ, Dual Clutch trannies and engine start / stop tech.

It is all about lowering fuel consumption.

[heavyD]

Being a member of a couple EVO forums there's always the debate between the MR and the GSR. In the EVO world the 5-speed can handle more aftermarket power as there are torque limitations to the TC-SST. The general arguments are the same; "paddle shifters are for pussies", "using a stick is more involving", etc. To me it seems like the young guys prefer the manuals because they are still in their infant driving stages while oder guys (not all) have been there and done that with manual transmissions and welcome the faster shifts and less hassle when used as a daily driver when the novelty of a manual wears off.

I prefer the automated manual but I can also understand why someone would prefer a manual gearbox. Although I will say to the haters to don't knock it until you've tried it as far too many post the same drivel about automated manuals without having tried them.

[TravisJ]

Originally posted by benyl


While I would agree to a certain extent being that North America, more specifically California, is Lambo's biggest market. I have to disagree that this is the main motivator.

Automatics are really only prevalent in North America. In Europe, EVERYONE knows how to drive a stick. Expensive gas will do that.


I don't think the shift towards F1 transmissions has anything to do with skill or knowledge. It is just a better driving solution, particularly on a performance car, IMHO.

[signature7]

The thread reminded me that Kobe Bryant paid an extra 200,000 thousand so his wife could drive her lambo.

[jdm_eg6]

Originally posted by Bizzareo
when you are going 150mph+ the last thing you want to deal with is removing your hand from the wheel. Hence why most drag cars are automatic (powerglides etc).

I have yet to drive anything with paddle shift but I could imagine it being fun on a track but boring on a regular road.

that and drag racing is for lazy chubbies in their 69 vette.. god forbid they miss the hotdogs after their 7 second pass... Rally racers and F1 both still use their hands, and forgive me if i am wrong. 200kph in a windy forest, or 220mph on a windy road course is a little harder than a 1/4 mile straight on a perfectly groomed flat paved surface.

[benyl]

Originally posted by jdm_eg6

Rally racers and F1 both still use their hands, and forgive me if i am wrong. 200kph in a windy forest, or 220mph on a windy road course is a little harder than a 1/4 mile straight on a perfectly groomed flat paved surface.

Automated manuals are FROM Formula 1.

Rally racers use a sequential box which is totally different than a manual in a regular car.

[TravisJ]

Originally posted by jdm_eg6

Rally racers and F1 both still use their hands, and forgive me if i am wrong.

Yes, F1 racers do use their hands... to operate the paddles.

[Sugarphreak]

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[benyl]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak

Not everybody who goes skiing wants to just take the bunny hill down to the lodge to get drunk... sure you can argue it is the easiest and most convenient skiing "solution"... but most people out there intentionally push themselves on difficult runs because it is a challenge and therein lies the fun.

That is a weak analogy of the situation.

Better would be the type of ski that the skier is using.

You could go down a hill with a telemark ski and be a "purist" or you could down the same hill with a modern downhill binding. Sure, the telemark ski makes things more "challenging", but it it really better?

Or, we can talk about mountain biking. Is a hard tail bike more of a "purist" solution over a full suspension bike?

Purist like to argue that things feel more "connected" with a manual, yet they don't complain about how 99% of throttles are Drive by wire, that brakes are power assisted, that steering is more and more being electrically boosted. Why is "technology" ok for those things, but for the gear box, it has to be "manual?"

[Sugarphreak]

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[benyl]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
Lots of people complain about drive by wire actually, myself included. I can feel the lag from when I hit the gas to when the engine responds... not just me either, a lot of people online actually go as far as removing the DBW system and replacing it with a throttle cable. I believe it is a very popular modification for the S2000. Just google "Throttle controllers"... enthusiasts despise how laggy the DBW systems are, the popularity of these devices is evidence of that.


What is funny is that most of the "kids" in the threads that show up on Beyond about this subject don't even know that their cars are DBW. And since most of them have never driven a car with a throttle cable or a cabled clutch, they don't know the difference.

Soon enough, when most cars are auto / Double clutch, the next generation won't "complain" as they won't know the difference.

It doesn't matter, the world is ending in 2012... hahahahaha

[Redlyne_mr2]

For me it comes down to a a vehicles weight and powerband. A nice light revy car like the Elise needs a manual. A super powerful, GT sized car like most modern day super cars needs some sort of electronically controlled transmission. I am torn on 911's however, personally Id prefer a manual in a 911 over their pdk.

[FiveFreshFish]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
Not everybody who goes skiing wants to just take the bunny hill down to the lodge to get drunk... sure you can argue it is the easiest and most convenient skiing "solution"... but most people out there intentionally push themselves on difficult runs because it is a challenge and therein lies the fun.

Good analogy. I've got the perfect pic...

[TravisJ]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
Not everybody who goes skiing wants to just take the bunny hill down to the lodge to get drunk... sure you can argue it is the easiest and most convenient skiing "solution"... but most people out there intentionally push themselves on difficult runs because it is a challenge and therein lies the fun.

Horrible analogy. Now, if you were to bring up choice of skis instead of choice of hill, there may be something to compare. I'm not a skier so I don't know what the developments have been in the sport. Do the purists looking for a challenge use vintage skis to be more in tune with the snow?