And They Call Themselves a Democracy [Archive] - Beyond.ca - Car Forums

Weapon_R

12-06-2003, 04:26 PM

By DEXTER FILKINS The New York Times

ABU HISHMA, Iraq (news - web sites), Dec. 6 — As the guerrilla war against Iraqi insurgents intensifies, American soldiers have begun wrapping entire villages in barbed wire.

In selective cases, American soldiers are demolishing buildings thought to be used by Iraqi attackers. They have begun imprisoning the relatives of suspected guerrillas, in hopes of pressing the insurgents to turn themselves in.

In Abu Hishma, encased in a razor-wire fence after repeated attacks on American troops, Iraqi civilians line up to go in and out, filing through an American-guarded checkpoint, each carrying an identification card printed in English only.

"If you have one of these cards, you can come and go," coaxed Lt. Col. Nathan Sassaman, the battalion commander whose men oversee the village, about 50 miles north of Baghdad. "If you don't have one of these cards, you can't."

The Iraqis nodded and edged their cars through the line. Over to one side, an Iraqi man named Tariq muttered in anger.

"I see no difference between us and the Palestinians," he said. "We didn't expect anything like this after Saddam fell."

The practice of destroying buildings where Iraqi insurgents are suspected of planning or mounting attacks has been used for decades by Israeli soldiers in Gaza and the West Bank. The Israeli Army has also imprisoned the relatives of suspected terrorists, in the hopes of pressing the suspects to surrender.

The Israeli military has also cordoned off villages and towns thought to be hotbeds of guerrilla activity, in an effort to control the flow of people moving in and out.

American officials say they are not purposefully mimicking Israeli tactics, but they acknowledge that they have studied closely the Israeli experience in urban fighting.

Didn't Hitler imprison innocent Jews in the effort to force their wanted relatives to turn themselves in? And didn't he also require the Jews to wear identification. Those who don't know thier history are doomed to repeat it.

12-06-2003, 04:45 PM

Fucking Nazis :guns: :guns:

Talies R

12-06-2003, 04:48 PM

I don't blame the American soldiers, they're objective is for the insurgents to turn themselves in...so they have to do, what they have to do, why should they play nice?

kevie88

12-06-2003, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by Talies R
I don't blame the American soldiers, they're objective is for the insurgents to turn themselves in...so they have to do, what they have to do, why should they play nice?

Because they're breaking just about every rule of war there is.. The've completely pissed away any human rights rules that the UN have laid down for the last 50 years. The US is the agressor. The US are the ones that started an unjust war. The US is in the wrong.

accordboi_02

12-06-2003, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by Weapon_R

Didn't Hitler imprison innocent Jews in the effort to force their wanted relatives to turn themselves in? And didn't he also require the Jews to wear identification. Those who don't know thier history are doomed to repeat it.

I think one of the big differences though is that the Americans are not doing this in their own country... Hitler took Jews from his own country and deported them, etc.

Not saying this is the best method, but they have to protect themselves as well, and I personally don't think this comes anywhere near as bad as something like the Japanese Internment here in Canada during WWII.

Weapon_R

12-07-2003, 03:29 AM

Originally posted by accordboi_02

I think one of the big differences though is that the Americans are not doing this in their own country... Hitler took Jews from his own country and deported them, etc.

Not saying this is the best method, but they have to protect themselves as well, and I personally don't think this comes anywhere near as bad as something like the Japanese Internment here in Canada during WWII.

Actually, it's worse. They have gone into another country by force, and they have implemented Nazi-style tactics :thumbsup:

4wheeldrift

12-07-2003, 10:04 AM

The US is eroding their own freedoms at home, why should Iraq be any different? It could be a lot worse, I don't see the US deploying chemical weapons the way Saddam did against the Kurds.

Maxt

12-07-2003, 10:17 AM

Perhaps Weapon R would like to share with us an alternative method of dealing with insurgents...How do you fight an enemy that looks like everyone else in that country...Its Vietnam 2003, hopefully with better results...Maxt

Shaolin

12-07-2003, 12:00 PM

I wouldn't compare this with the Nazis until I see the US kill 6 million iraqis for no reason.. and that won't happen.

Weapon_R

12-07-2003, 07:30 PM

Originally posted by 4wheeldrift
It could be a lot worse, I don't see the US deploying chemical weapons the way Saddam did against the Kurds.

Perhaps they could donate 3 billion dollars in foreign aid to military ventures like they did in 1988, 2 months after Saddam gassed the Kurds. That'll definately turn off the Iraqis :thumbsup: Most Iraqis WISH that Saddam was back.

Originally posted by Maxt
Perhaps Weapon R would like to share with us an alternative method of dealing with insurgents...How do you fight an enemy that looks like everyone else in that country...Its Vietnam 2003, hopefully with better results...Maxt

I wonder how you'd react if your brother was jailed because you were wanted on suspicion for something. But then again, you sit here on the sidelines and watch so it doesn't affect you as much. Fighting an enemy you can't see doesn't necessitate jailing the innocent population to coax insurgents to turn themselves in.

4wheeldrift

12-07-2003, 07:39 PM

Originally posted by Weapon_R

Perhaps they could donate 3 billion dollars in foreign aid to military ventures like they did in 1988, 2 months after Saddam gassed the Kurds. That'll definately turn off the Iraqis :thumbsup: Most Iraqis WISH that Saddam was back. And why is that exactly? Maybe its because 30 years of indoctrination and living in constant fear doesn't go away over night. "Well, at least we had power with saddam" "There was order" These are stylized ideals at the best.

Originally posted by Weapon_R
I wonder how you'd react if your brother was jailed because you were wanted on suspicion for something. But then again, you sit here on the sidelines and watch so it doesn't affect you as much. And so do you, so drop the holier than thou attitude.

accordboi_02

12-08-2003, 03:10 AM

Originally posted by Weapon_R

Actually, it's worse. They have gone into another country by force, and they have implemented Nazi-style tactics :thumbsup:

Well, whether you want to admit it or not, the US did not do this as an unprovoked attack on another country, they did it for self-defence. WMD or not, you can't deny that Iraq was a "haven" for terrorists and whatnot.

Yes, I am on the sidelines, as is everyone else on this board I believe... and I'm glad to be here, and not there. And, if you think about it for one second, it's those "Nazi" tactics that quite possibly are helping to keep us on the sidelines. I don't know about you, but for me, I'd rather not have to worry about dying everytime I go to a major metropolitan area in North America, b/c some terrorist has the mistaken belief that he is fighting his holy war against Western society.

I know it's been said once, but I think it's worth mentioning again: you like to use the word "Nazi" a lot in referring to the American's tactics and such... how about you go find a Holocaust survivor and tell him/her that you think the Americans are being Nazis to his/her face... I'm sure then you just may get a real history lesson.

Toma

12-08-2003, 09:56 AM

The US went out and attacked sa overeign country for no reason. Bullshit links to sept 11 and "Terrorism", and WMD's all proved to be lies. THey did it in Afghansitan, and Yugoslavia previously.

I hope LOTS more American soldiers die. LOTS. US will is crumbling, and Americans cannot take big losses.....

Look at Afghansitan yesterday.... tough guy Americans bombed a house and killed 10 people... nine of them children....

My saviours, the fucking Americans :rolleyes:

B17a

12-08-2003, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by Toma

I hope LOTS more American soldiers die.

:thumbsdow

DeSi

12-08-2003, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by Talies R
I don't blame the American soldiers, they're objective is for the insurgents to turn themselves in...so they have to do, what they have to do, why should they play nice?

thank you for that comment you hillbilly retard. us is the most outspoken nation in the world when it comes to the "rules of war" and they are breaking them by doing that.

How would you feel is your ass got arrested just because they thought your brother was gonna shoot up a school?

....guy your ignorant

DeSi

12-08-2003, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by B17a

:thumbsdow

Toma AGAIN sighz man another one of your uneducated opinions?

Toma

12-08-2003, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by DeSi

Toma AGAIN sighz man another one of your uneducated opinions?

Whaaaaat?

Americans have no stocmach for losses. The more of a fight Iraq puts up, and the more body bags that come home to the US, in todays environment of internal investigations in the US about false info on Iraq.... they will pull out that much faster.

Its sad, yes, but better American soldiers die, then Iraqi civilians.

B17a

12-08-2003, 10:26 AM

I think the point is Toma, yes I 100% agree that just as in Vietnam, the more Americans who came home in body bags was directly related to decreasing support. But to say " I hope lots more Americans die", can be interpreted as, you've renewed your Al Queda membership for 2004.

DeSi

12-08-2003, 10:27 AM

yeah i don't think the US should have been in there the first place, but i don't really wish death on them. there becoming frustrated and their tactics are getting unorthodox, UN should do something about it. But fuck, we all know the the UN is basically another league of nations, no country really gives a fuck what they say or do. they couldn't even prevent the US from attacking another sovereign nation.

props to chretien for making the right decision and not joining the war.

:guns:

Toma

12-08-2003, 10:29 AM

I never said I hope lots of Amercians die. I said amercian soldiers.... you know, the war criminals over there killing the civilians....

DeSi

12-08-2003, 10:30 AM

maybe you should go to iraq and fight for the iraqi's

Toma

12-08-2003, 10:31 AM

Originally posted by DeSi
maybe you should go to iraq and fight for the iraqi's
Maybe I should knock your teeth out and "let you" give me a gummer?

B17a

12-08-2003, 10:33 AM

DeSi, Toma, albeit a bit on the extreme side, does have fairly well informed opinions. I'm just curious how he sees a utopian society.

Toma

12-08-2003, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by B17a
DeSi, Toma, albeit a bit on the extreme side, does have fairly well informed opinions. I'm just curious how he sees a utopian society.

Its a tough one man.... probably no such thing.

However, currently 2 things in the western world in my opinion keep us from getting closer to the ideal...
Nationalism (just a thinly disguised version of racism)
Capitalism (It has many flaws, no room to cover here....the essence is, it allows the rich and powerfull to implement policy, and results in 95% of the population to work for 5% and the part that is bad is that the 5% who make the big money, put it in their pockets, instead of into our country - Like Martin and his Caymen Island based business. The guy has millions if not billions, and pays no taxes....).

I think ANYTHING national, like natural resources etc (which under the consititution belong ot EVERY Canadian) need to be more tightly regulated. Northern Alberta is an example.... the trees are being stripped bare, sold to private companies at dirt cheap prices, they get exported, and the money ends up in private hands.... Like I said, complex subject....

Same as electricity and natuaral gas.... how come we as residents pay more then people we sell to?

B17a

12-08-2003, 11:08 AM

Toma, all good points. There is a large discrepancy between wealth classes in the west, I think more so in the US. However the tax system in Canada is not exactly attractive if you're wealthy, if I was in those shoes I would be doing my part to plan "tax effective" shelters as well, why not, it's perfectly legal. I think its not a question of contributing, we need some more responsible management. How many hospitals would the billions have built from the gun registry?

12-08-2003, 11:25 AM

Half the people here don't know shit about these situations. Have you ever been in a war situation? Do you know what it feels like to have a soldier come and break down your door and drag you out in the middle of the night because your brother is a "terrorist". have you ever ran for cover because you got tanks driving down the street or bombers flying overhead?

Thats what i thought. I can relate to half this shit up here. one day my friend was just sitting there playing with his bros and then bam a bomb comes right in there door? end result was he ended up with an amputated arm and leg. I say down with these Zionists and the USA should be taken down.

there NEVER was WMD. did they find any? no they didn't. Those americans are just to fcuked up to admit that this war is over OIL nothing else.

:guns: :guns: :guns:

hjr

12-08-2003, 11:26 AM

there is nothing we can do about it anyways. I personally think the war was a good thing. The big boy on the block needs to protect the little guy. However, i think they went about it all wrong. There were never any WMD and very very little connection to terrorism (Saudi Arabia has 10 times more connection). It should never have been about that. It should have been about the people from the beginning.

Next, its not the americans fault that there are a bunch of fucked up ultra-islamic fuckbots going around and killing them. It doesnt make any fucking sense to me. I understand why the palestinians do it, but these guys, i have no clue. The US wants to get out, they want them to leave, why are they working against the US then. They have the same goals. Again, no sense.

Next, having stated that there are fuckbots around trying to kill you, what would you do? let them? No, you do whatever you can to stop it. Sometimes they go to far, sometimes not far enough. But they have to do something.

Next, If the US leaves now it would create a worse situation than afganastan or old saddam. There would be very little control and most likely warlords would take over the country, (as has happened in afganastan), or another dictator will come to power. This is the most vulnerable time for iraq. anything can happen and the bad things are more likely. The US needs to stay there until they are able to govern themselves democratically and also control their own country. With their own police (not army). There needs to be a separation of army and state as well as church and state (which could be argued is the most important).

Super_Geo

12-08-2003, 11:28 AM

:D

Hahaha... I can't even take topics like these seriously anymore. I used to get rather riled up... but what's the point? It doesn't change anything at all.

Does it matter that, by their own definitions, the US has commited more international terrorism than any other country? Look at Nicarauga in the 80s. The World Court (whose compulsary jurisdiction was accepted by the US after WWII in 1946) ruled that the US must 'cease and to refrain' from the unlawful use of force against Nicarauga in 1986... essentially a terrorist war. And the US response to that? That the World Court has no jurisdiction over them! I'll be that Al Queda wouldn't let the World Court boss them around either :rolleyes:

It's laughable how the news tells us how many Iraqi soliders died like they just won a god damn trophy. So we're supposed to take that lightly and give a bleeding heart to Billy Bob from America when he dies over there? Why? Because he's white? :rolleyes:

I'd rather hear that 1000 American soliders died than 10 Iraqi civilians.

B17a

12-08-2003, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by Mx6GtTurbo
Those americans are just to fcuked up to admit that this war is over OIL nothing else.
:

Oil? Haha. Given that oil prices are still over $30/bbl, I don't think they're exactly turning on the taps over there. If it was all about oil, I'm no military strategist but taking over Canada would have made more sense, we're right here and the pipelines are already in place.:D

hjr

12-08-2003, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by B17a

Oil? Haha. Given that oil prices are still over $30/bbl, I don't think they're exactly turning on the taps over there. If it was all about oil, I'm no military strategist but taking over Canada would have made more sense, we're right here and the pipelines are already in place.:D
:werd: it doesnt make economic sence to take the place over for oil purposes. Sure its a great side benifit and was definetely a factor in their decision to go in, but it literally does not make sence for them to spend as much as they are in this occupation just to make a couple oil companies some money. Thats right, not the government but a few companies. The US govt. is probably getting almost nothing back from the oil.

BTW, Canada (by which i mean alberta) is the 3rd largest supplier of oil to the US behind Saudi Arabia and Venenuala (sp?). We sell soooooo much oil to them its rediculus. If alberta turned off the taps the us could see a $1,$2, or more jump at the pumps. (We actually matter!!! YAYYYYYYYY!!!!)

Toma

12-08-2003, 11:42 AM

Who knows what its REALLY about. Its not about terrorism, WMD's, democracy or Isreal.

If anything, its about the Americans exercising penis envy and trying to show the world who is boss, ignoring the UN, and world opinion just in SPITE.

Super_Geo

12-08-2003, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by hjr
BTW, Canada (by which i mean alberta) is the 3rd largest supplier of oil to the US behind Saudi Arabia and Venenuala (sp?). We sell soooooo much oil to them its rediculus. If alberta turned off the taps the us could see a $1,$2, or more jump at the pumps. (We actually matter!!! YAYYYYYYYY!!!!)

But in terms of supply, the Middle East has much more oil than Alberta does.

I think it has a lot to do with oil. If not, why does the US have such a strong presence in the Middle East? Oil and Israel (which it uses to help secure oil... and the Israelis use the Americans to help steal land from the Palestinians. Sembiosis ;)).

12-08-2003, 11:54 AM

what did the US do when Hitler was invading all those European countries? they did jack all, what do they care now? :dunno:

Bush is like a high-school boy, he's trying to make a name for himself and try to finish what his daddy couldn't do.

fuck YOU bush

hjr

12-08-2003, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by Super_Geo

But in terms of supply, the Middle East has much more oil than Alberta does.

I think it has a lot to do with oil. If not, why does the US have such a strong presence in the Middle East? Oil and Israel (which it uses to help secure oil... and the Israelis use the Americans to help steal land from the Palestinians. Sembiosis ;)). Not so much as you think. Canada imports way more oil to the US than you can imagine. Also, Europe gets most of the middle eastern oil and its cheaper for the US to transport it from South and North America i believe. As for Israel, thats a lobbying issue. There is a huge Jewish community in the US. No american president can touch Israel without serious backlash. granted there is a side benifit of having a foothold into the middle east (which is not useful for oil cause the oil producing arab's hate israel!!!). So now you understand that Israel has relatively little to do with oil. Thats why the US has such good relations with Saudi Arabia.

Super_Geo

12-08-2003, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by hjr
Not so much as you think. Canada imports way more oil to the US than you can imagine. Also, Europe gets most of the middle eastern oil and its cheaper for the US to transport it from South and North America i believe.

How much is being extracted and the size of the supplies are related, but different. Also, regardless of how much oil Alberta exports to America, it is influenced by the activities in the Middle East. If OPEC were to cut their production of oil the supply/demand increase the value of oil across the board and Alberta would charge the USA more accordingly. It's not even a question that if the Middle East didn't sit on top of the world's oil reserves that America would not waste their time there. I mean, look at all the corruption and suffering in Africa... Why isn't America there rooting out evil? :rolleyes:

As for Israel, thats a lobbying issue. There is a huge Jewish community in the US. No american president can touch Israel without serious backlash. granted there is a side benifit of having a foothold into the middle east (which is not useful for oil cause the oil producing arab's hate israel!!!). So now you understand that Israel has relatively little to do with oil. Thats why the US has such good relations with Saudi Arabia.

Lobbying does have an impact, but I don't think that it's the one and only reason. In fact, I don't even think it's the biggest reason. US financial support for Israel grew exponentially after it found that Israel could do its dirty work in the area (and this was back in the 60s-70s I believe... it's been a while since I researched this so I don't remember exactly). There were operations back then that America couldn't do (either for publicity reasons or otherwise) that Israel had no problem doing. It's like getting a thug to do your dirty laundry. I have a few books that cover the issue... Chomsky makes the boldest accusations, and they're well justified I find.

sandman

12-08-2003, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by Mx6GtTurbo
what did the US do when Hitler was invading all those European countries? they did jack all, what do they care now? :dunno:

Bush is like a high-school boy, he's trying to make a name for himself and try to finish what his daddy couldn't do.

fuck YOU bush
:werd: im so with u on that, jus seeing his face on tv sickens me.... clinton was 10 times better than bush, and a pimp :bigpimp: lol, bush on the other hand is a full blown bible thumping right wing cock sucker
but wats new about the US's conduct? theyve always shoved their noses in places where it doiesnt belong, to keep up their image and further their own causes, i wo0uld bet my life that if Pakistan didnt co operate as much during the post 9 11 stuff, bush wouldve bombed us as well saying that the milatray government is evil blah blah and set up his own lil puppet regime, being from there and having been there in the summer EVERYONE, regardless if ur majajir, sindhi, pushtu, punjabi, every1 prefers the dictatorship, shits actually getting better, so i cant speak for all the places the fucking states likes to shove their guns at, but most places keep prgoressing for the better, they dont take in mind waht the PPL of the coutnry want, they jus go in, do what they want so they country will b set to favour them in watever way they want.
ill sound biased, coz ive fucking hated them since the start, but thas jus my 2 cents

sandman

12-08-2003, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by Super_Geo

I mean, look at all the corruption and suffering in Africa... Why isn't America there rooting out evil? :rolleyes:

.

becuase theres not much for them to gain
maybe if the diamonds from Sierra Leone were marketable, then bush would b like....hey....u guys arnt a democracy....lets get em...
and then roll in, beseige the land, set up a govt there that would lick his balls with a diamond encrusted tongue :guns:
bush wont sit there n root for evil or ntohing, but, well ever hear of the term "crime for profit"? not that hes a criminal per se, jus that hes not gonna waste his time and money and troops on sht unless theres a big plus point to b gained

DeSi

12-08-2003, 07:00 PM

hehe pakistan america relations are down. india on the other hand has good relations with the world because of our openmindedness and no phycotic military religios government dictator policy's.

and KASHMIR should be OURS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Toma

12-08-2003, 07:30 PM

LOL....someone else that reads Chomsky? No way! ;) He is great. Saw him at the U of C a few years ago.

Also, General Mackenzie on his talk about the bullshit that happenedin Yugoslavia.... awesome stuff from a first hand source...

I am surprised no one has assassinated Chomsky though.... seriously makes the US govt look BAAAAD.

Toma

Weapon_R

12-09-2003, 12:01 AM

Originally posted by Mx6GtTurbo
fuck YOU bush

:thumbsup:

Originally posted by hjr
Not so much as you think. Canada imports way more oil to the US than you can imagine. Also, Europe gets most of the middle eastern oil and its cheaper for the US to transport it from South and North America i believe

Do your research. Go back to 1973 and the Yom Kippur War and see what happened to the US when the OPEC countries refused to sell to them. It prompted the U.S. to literally fight off the invading Arab countries themselves. The U.S. also engaged in a military airlift so large it was second only to the Berlin airlift of 1948.

And as a sidenote, the Western Countries (including Israel) were so starved of oil that Israel planned on hitting Syria with a Nuclear bomb to end the war, and only stopped when the Soviet Union placed tactical nuclear missiles in Egypt and threatened to unleash "the entire Soviet nuclear arsenal" on Israel if they bombed Syria. Shows how desperate we are for oil, and invading a country such as Iraq for long term benefit was a smart tactic.

Oh ya, while you're at it, find out when the taps of Saudia Arabia are expected to run dry. You and I will both see it in our lifetimes, god willing. It's not far away. And guess who has the largest reserve? That's right, Iraq :)

Originally posted by DeSi
KASHMIR should be OURS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No it shouldn't. The region is predominately muslim and they all want to go with Pakistan. The only claim to Kashmir that India has was that the leader at the time of Partition was Indian, so they feel it should have gone to India.

Originally posted by Toma
LOL....someone else that reads Chomsky? No way! ;) He is great. Saw him at the U of C a few years ago.

Personally, I think Chomsky's a genius, but he's also a moron. He has a lot to say and he doesn't exercise any consistency. He will criticize the US for it's middle eastern policy, but then he'll criticize the middle east for causing the US intervention. Doesn't always follow one path.

hjr

12-09-2003, 12:45 AM

Originally posted by Weapon_R

1- Do your research. Go back to 1973 and the Yom Kippur War and see what happened to the US when the OPEC countries refused to sell to them. It prompted the U.S. to literally fight off the invading Arab countries themselves. The U.S. also engaged in a military airlift so large it was second only to the Berlin airlift of 1948.

2- And as a sidenote, the Western Countries (including Israel) were so starved of oil that Israel planned on hitting Syria with a Nuclear bomb to end the war, and only stopped when the Soviet Union placed tactical nuclear missiles in Egypt and threatened to unleash "the entire Soviet nuclear arsenal" on Israel if they bombed Syria. Shows how desperate we are for oil, and invading a country such as Iraq for long term benefit was a smart tactic.

3- Oh ya, while you're at it, find out when the taps of Saudia Arabia are expected to run dry. You and I will both see it in our lifetimes, god willing. It's not far away. And guess who has the largest reserve? That's right, Iraq :)

1- Oil in alberta was not developed to the extent that it is now in 1973. But you are right. Opec does control oil prices.

2- Same as #1. your right, but alberta didnt produce nearly as much then as it does now. (i think thats what you were getting at)

3- I have no clue when oil in Saudi Arabia will quit. ??? No freakin' clue.

sandman

12-09-2003, 01:22 AM

Originally posted by DeSi
hehe pakistan america relations are down. india on the other hand has good relations with the world because of our openmindedness and no phycotic military religios government dictator policy's.

and KASHMIR should be OURS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:rofl: lol, theyre happy with it tho right, almsot every1 is happy with him, and everyhting is improving!
im glad u guys can hav all the Bush u want :poosie:

hey does anyone hav that piicture of buush readook upside down?
or looking through binoculars with the lens cap on?
total fukin idiot, followi in US trd. of using the pretense of "saving oppressed ppl and giving them decmocracy" to go, bomb some1 they dont like, or hav something to gain from, and then setup their own regime, so that they can benefit, regagardless of the impact on the local ppl
:guns: bush

4wheeldrift

12-09-2003, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by Weapon_R

Do your research. Go back to 1973 and the Yom Kippur War and see what happened to the US when the OPEC countries refused to sell to them. It prompted the U.S. to literally fight off the invading Arab countries themselves. The U.S. also engaged in a military airlift so large it was second only to the Berlin airlift of 1948.

And as a sidenote, the Western Countries (including Israel) were so starved of oil that Israel planned on hitting Syria with a Nuclear bomb to end the war, and only stopped when the Soviet Union placed tactical nuclear missiles in Egypt and threatened to unleash "the entire Soviet nuclear arsenal" on Israel if they bombed Syria. Shows how desperate we are for oil, and invading a country such as Iraq for long term benefit was a smart tactic.The situation has changed quite a bit since 1973. The US is still a mostly oil driven economy, but they are tied to different countries for their supply now. The canadian oilpatch is producing some 2.5 million barrels per day (low estimate) with about 2 million of that going to the states. By contrast, Saudi Arabia is only selling about 1.5 million barrels a day to the states. Yes, OPEC could turn off the taps again, but it wouldn't have nearly the impact it did. Back in 1973, the US was totally dependent on oil from OPEC countries, which they no longer are. You'll notice its been quite a long time since OPEC was able to keep the price of oil so inflated. As a matter of fact, OPEC had their own tactics turned on them a couple years ago when several non-OPEC aligned countries flooded the market with crude, dropping the price of oil to $10 a barrel. It took almost 18 months for the price of oil to recover after that. OPEC is not nearly the power in the world they use to be, much to many of their countries chagrin.

Originally posted by Weapon_R

Oh ya, while you're at it, find out when the taps of Saudia Arabia are expected to run dry. You and I will both see it in our lifetimes, god willing. It's not far away. And guess who has the largest reserve? That's right, Iraq :) Iraq has the largest reserve of conventional crude, but Alberta has the largest reserve of oil in the world locked in the Tar Sands up north, estimated at better than twice the remaining conventional oil reserves for the whole rest of the world. Unfortunately, processing the Tar Sands into something usable cost about 7x as much as processing conventional crude so there hasn't been much development done up there (yet). SAGD operations like Nexen's Long Lake development are finally managing to get something salable out of the Tar Sands for not nearly as much cost as it used to require.

DeSi

12-09-2003, 09:32 AM

hmm.....kashmir is predominantley muslim, and india has a larger muslim population then pakistan.

lol and kashmiri's do NOT want to join pakistan, or india for that matter.

accordboi_02

12-09-2003, 10:12 AM

I don't agree with all of the US bashing here... I'd prefer to see no one die; US or Iraqis - but also, I can't argue that Bush is not an idiot, b/c he is.

So for all you G.W. Bush haters out there, check this out:

http://www.gwbush.com/multimedia/index.shtml

Enjoy!

:thumbsup:

hjr

12-09-2003, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by DeSi
hmm.....kashmir is predominantley muslim, and india has a larger muslim population then pakistan.

lol and kashmiri's do NOT want to join pakistan, or india for that matter. That is irrelivant. India is a Hindu nation where as Pakistan is a muslim nation. There may be more muslims in india, but thats because india has 1.1 billion people. The percentage of muslims is far far greater in pakistan than india. Kashmir doenst have much of a choice about what happens. It was Originally indian territory, but when the split happened when the british left that was an area where they couldnt come to terms with each other. But of course, thanks for comming out.