Douchebag driving, or acceptable?

[2EFNFAST]

Southbound Deerfoot, before the Southland merge point (more specifically, I'm talking about where the traffic is exiting from the mall on the 2 offramps), during rush hour (e.g., 5pm)

Whenever I get stuck there, I usually jump into the far right lane (basically the off-ramp coming from the mall), drive all the way down, merge into the next lane (still part of the off ramp, if you want to call it that at that length still), drive all the way to the underpass and calmly signal and merge over before the lane ends. Whenever I do this, I get tonnes of people blowing their horn at me and flipping me off. I never figured out what the big deal is.Is that douchebag driving to take advantage of those right-hand lanes there during rush hour, or acceptable and people are just too stupid to realize they too can use the lanes (kind of like how when people exit the mall, they break immediately going onto Deerfoot and try to merge in atleast a km before the road ends)?


Now, to be fair, sometimes I deserve it - like yesterday I came plowing down the right-most lane in my corvette, 2nd gear, banging off 5000RPM as everybody else was stopped, drove all the way to the underpass; nobody wanted to let me in so I proceeded to drive on the shoulder, rev up to 6600RPM to startle traffic and force my way in well after the underpass. (so basically i was driving on the shoulder pretty much from where the off-ramp ends all the way to where traffic begins to merge off southland :rofl: )That I classify as douchebag driving :rofl:


Cliffs: Traffic is stopped in rush hour. You drive in the right-most off-ramp lane that has 0 traffic and that doesn't end for atleast a km. Douchebag driving, or taking advantage of your surroundings.

[Jeremiah]

As with most of the stories you tell

http://images.starcraftmazter.net/4chan/for_forums/cool_story_bro.jpg

[2EFNFAST]

Originally posted by Jeremiah
As with most of the stories you tell



A good story would involve gangbang somehow :nut:

This, I'm just curious about if others see it as douchebag driving, or taking advantage of your surroundings

[scat19]

Do you drive a silver corvette?

I've hds some encounters with a douche when I'm in the south

[2EFNFAST]

Originally posted by scat19
Do you drive a silver corvette?

I've hds some encounters with a douche when I'm in the south

No - yellow. And lowered. And no exhaust (longtubes + straight though).............you'll hear me a mile away before you see me :rofl:

[chkolny541]

d-bag driving, i dont let ppl in when they ride their lane, which they know ends at a set point, to the very last few meters, at that point ill ride the bumper of the guy ahead of me, or ill just drive perfectly beside the asshole thats trying to merge in the shoulder and just ride them into the curb as far as i can. :dunno: :poosie: d-bag driving? or taking advantge of your surroundings :nut: :rofl:

[scat19]

I've seen you on mcleod racing cars lol

[ekguy]

Meh, I do it too all the time.

As you said dunno why all the other idiots on Deerfoot don't do it...

:thumbsup: :D

[2EFNFAST]

Originally posted by chkolny541
d-bag driving, i dont let ppl in when they ride their lane, which they know ends at a set point, to the very last few meters, at that point ill ride the bumper of the guy ahead of me, or ill just drive perfectly beside the asshole thats trying to merge in the shoulder and just ride them into the curb as far as i can. :dunno: :poosie: d-bag driving? or taking advantge of your surroundings :nut: :rofl:

I c what u did there......

It's just so much better to slam on my brakes and merge a km before the lane ends just to get a place in line! I mean, that doesn't cause Deerfoot to back up at all! :p

For you, I'd cut infront and stay in 1st gear and give you a pounding migraine. V8 + no exhaust + 6600RPM = you back the f*k off :p


Originally posted by scat19
I've seen you on mcleod racing cars lol

Might not have been me - I don't race anybody - I usually just pace people in 3rd gear along Mcleod and see how long they will put up with my exhaust in their ear :rofl:

[wintonyk]

douchebag move.

Its not you being smart using a merge lane to get get 15 cars ahead for all the rage you get out of everyone else. Pretty sure everyone else is smart enough to figure that out.

[Goodfella]

Lane riding is kinda fun if you ask me, in everday driving you have got to give yourself some kind of thrill.

[v2kai]

using the merge lane as stated in the OP and they way youre driving = d-bag

chkolny541 not letting people in who use their lane to the fullest merging with traffic :facepalm:

it's been said before on beyond a few times, the most efficient way for traffic to flow if there is a bottleneck is for everyone to go right to the end, and alternate through then spread out again. all lining up like a bunch of tards slows it down for everyone

mind you if the person uses the whole lane and there is an opening available and they dont make an effort to adjust to it til the very last second then by all means, be a d-bag:thumbsup:

[1-Bar]

I sometimes do this...people coming from the mall do it as well during rush hour, so what's the big problem :dunno:

[Rarasaurus]

This is exactly why that section is so slow. People like you that do not merge properly. Everyone knows that trick but most people are courteous enough not to use it. If everyone did it that area would be even slower because you constantly have lanes coming in from the left.

As stated above, other drivers get mad because people like you do that. In turn, they try to not let you in, slowings things down further.

[2EFNFAST]

Originally posted by Rarasaurus
This is exactly why that section is so slow. People like you that do not merge properly. Everyone knows that trick but most people are courteous enough not to use it. If everyone did it that area would be even slower because you constantly have lanes coming in from the left.

As stated above, other drivers get mad because people like you do that. In turn, they try to not let you in, slowings things down further.

1 - I'm not slowing anybody down - if they don't let me in, I just drive further on the shoulder until somebody either does or I get tired of it and poke in. I'm not one of those who panicks and goes 'OMG! LANE ENDS!' then brakes and dive-bombs in, forcing everybody to stop. No entry, fine, i'll drive on the shoulder for a bit.

2 - I genuinely don't think 90% of people get it. When I've done that .... trick .... with people in the car, they're always like 'WTF are you doing?' Then when I explain it they're like 'ohhhhhh'; it didn't even begin to cross their mind that was an option. Here's another example - the left lane starts backing up WELL before that area (i.e., well before you can turn right to go into the mall). The right hand lane is usually relatively free-moving. So why do people, day after day after day, stay plastered in the unmoving left-hand lane. My theory - people are stupid.

[btimbit]

Both views make sense. Sure, it might be more courteous not to do that, but at the same time, you payed to be on the road, why not use all of it.

I never understood people that honk at you for stuff like that. It must just be so terrible that someone's driven past you. Oh lord.

[kbye]

using the merge lane doesn't seem douchy to me - but high revving a 'vette in rush hour traffic does

[2EFNFAST]

Originally posted by btimbit

I never understood people that honk at you for stuff like that. It must just be so terrible that someone's driven past you. Oh lord.

My theory - they're thinking "WTF!!! HE CAN"T DO THAT!!! HE ISN"T WAITING HIS TURN IN LINE!!!!"

It's like the off-ramp going from Anderson to Macleod. When you merge onto Mcleod, how many people slam on their brakes and try to force their way onto Mcleod as soon as the dashed line appears, for fear of running out of road?

Myself, I usually drive all the way to the end of the merge lane, then calmly merge in (I mean, it goes almost all the way to the traffic light!) ... meanwhile, as i pass by people they flip me off or blow their horn at me (and I'm not even merging infront of them, or merging for another 1/4km or so!)

[v2kai]

Originally posted by 2EFNFAST


My theory - they're thinking "WTF!!! HE CAN"T DO THAT!!! HE ISN"T WAITING HIS TURN IN LINE!!!!"

It's like the off-ramp going from Anderson to Macleod. When you merge onto Mcleod, how many people slam on their brakes and try to force their way onto Mcleod as soon as the dashed line appears, for fear of running out of road?

Myself, I usually drive all the way to the end of the merge lane, then calmly merge in (I mean, it goes almost all the way to the traffic light!) ... meanwhile, as i pass by people they flip me off or blow their horn at me (and I'm not even merging infront of them, or merging for another 1/4km or so!)

driving on the shoulder, reving vette in rush hour pissing off people on purpose at 6K with open exhaust...:dunno:

looks like douche bag driving on the shoulder(usually has gravel and shit you're spittin at everyone else), revs likes a douche bag, and pissing people off on purpose like a douche bag. seems like you're making a pretty open and shut case for yourself 2EFN :dunno::rofl:

[2EFNFAST]

Originally posted by v2kai


driving on the shoulder, reving vette in rush hour pissing off people on purpose at 6K with open exhaust...:dunno:

looks like douche bag driving on the shoulder(usually has gravel and shit you're spittin at everyone else), revs likes a douche bag, and pissing people off on purpose like a douche bag. seems like you're making a pretty open and shut case for yourself 2EFN :dunno::rofl:

I plead the 5th :o

[blueToy]

Originally posted by 2EFNFAST


My theory - they're thinking "WTF!!! HE CAN"T DO THAT!!! HE ISN"T WAITING HIS TURN IN LINE!!!!"

It's like the off-ramp going from Anderson to Macleod. When you merge onto Mcleod, how many people slam on their brakes and try to force their way onto Mcleod as soon as the dashed line appears, for fear of running out of road?

Myself, I usually drive all the way to the end of the merge lane, then calmly merge in (I mean, it goes almost all the way to the traffic light!) ... meanwhile, as i pass by people they flip me off or blow their horn at me (and I'm not even merging infront of them, or merging for another 1/4km or so!)




If you have to ask , you probably already know you drive like a smelly asshole .


Let's say I see you driving up the shoulder . At the last possible moment when you are about to pass me I *meander* over the shoulder line forcing you to either hit me or the concrete curb ... or I say fuck it and do it as you're rumbling by I take out your whole side of the yellow loud corvette . What now ? I'll immediately run to the two drivers behind me to get witnesses ( and I'm pretty sure they'd be more then happy to comply ) and then what ? What are you going to tell the cops ? That you were passing everybody on the shoulder/emergency lane ? I can just say my truck was acting up and I was going to get out of traffic . But as for you driving up it ?? Nice ... I'll bet they'd be more then happy seeing how this is all happening at rush hour and I'm sure they're real happy about being on Deerfoot because of you .

Thanks ... I'll keep a watch for you . I need some new paint . :clap:

[Dilmah]

Douche bag driving! and what's with the "calmly signal" part who cares if you're calm or not when you signal, you're still a douche bag. Get in line and wait your turn like everyone else in the world! Who do you think you are SCAT! Imagine if everyone did that, then it would be a giant parking lot, people trying to push their way in and out of that lane.

[YamaLube]

Let me address the real reason you posted this to make you happy. You don't really care about the driving.


Cool man, you got a vette with straight pipes, please post pics and a sound clip so we can all bask in your awesomeness..............

[ercchry]

dear Alex,

i had a feeling that was you behind me the other day (had the shitty green jeep compass loaner car)... i too cruise up in the far right, but as you may have noticed i merged with traffic before i had to drive on the other side of the white line and was not at 5k rpm with a car with loud exhaust. so yes, you drive like a douche

[bourge73]

2EFNFAST: I see a BMW in your future (straight piped of course)

[beyond_ban]

This thread makes me curious...

What do people think of the people that drive down the bus lane on Westbound Crowchild before crossing Bow trail? Some people use it as a long right turn lane, but others take it all the way until they are forced to cut someone off or exit onto Bow.

Thoughts?

[scat19]

Originally posted by beyond_ban
This thread makes me curious...

What do people think of the people that drive down the bus lane on Westbound Crowchild before crossing Bow trail? Some people use it as a long right turn lane, but others take it all the way until they are forced to cut someone off or exit onto Bow.

Thoughts?

That's illegal, so it's extra douchey.

I wish a cop would set up shop there and pull em for it

[beyond_ban]

^^I've seen a cop set up there before right after the corner so the people in the lane couldn't see them until they were already stopped. It was priceless seeing the guy beside me try to merge in front of at the last second to avoid a ticket but instead i pinched him into the bus lane. If only i could have captured the look on his face.

[Mar]

You're driving on the shoulder, who cares? It's illegal so case closed.

[Tomaz]

At lease it's not as bad as ppl using the shoulder on Deerfoot between 17th/Blackfoot to Memorial. If you ever see someone swerve into the emergency lane while you are using it...


Wuznt me - The song... stuck in my head right now

Oh, 2EFEN....

Same goes for you, keep your eyes peeled for my bumper...:thumbsup:

EDIT: Reference to scat's license removed for confusion... my bad

[Zero102]

Originally posted by 2EFNFAST

For you, I'd cut infront and stay in 1st gear and give you a pounding migraine. V8 + no exhaust + 6600RPM = you back the f*k off :p



Might not have been me - I don't race anybody - I usually just pace people in 3rd gear along Mcleod and see how long they will put up with my exhaust in their ear :rofl:


I carry rocks in the vehicle for people like you. If you ever do this to me expect a 4" rock thrown through your windshield, same with you fuckers on bikes with straight pipes that think it is okay to ear-fuck everybody as you drive.

[Grogador]

Originally posted by Zero102
same with you fuckers on bikes with straight pipes that think it is okay to ear-fuck everybody as you drive.

At least you seen/heard me coming for once. Why do you think bikers don't get exhaust tickets but ricers do?

Go take your aggression out on a hooker, like a proper D-BAG should.

[Kloubek]

Originally posted by 2EFNFAST


No - yellow. And lowered. And no exhaust (longtubes + straight though).............you'll hear me a mile away before you see me :rofl:

You drive a vette with test pipes and headers? That is douche enough by itself, quite honestly. I can't imagine how loud that thing is, and how many people you wake up at night when you're driving (self-admitting) like a douche.

Honestly, I did not realize it was you when I replied. Now that I see that, the exhaust is exactly in line with what I would expect, given the Cobra.

As for the question you asked:

If a cop would not stop you for driving a certain way, then it is probably not driving like a total douche. Is it being somewhat inconsiderate to others by pushing your way to the "front of the line" so to speak? Yeah, maybe. But they have equal opportunity to do the same, and if you aren't doing anything which breaks the law, then they can fuck themselves.

The fact is, they (and everyone else) cannot stack up to the awesomeness you exhibit with your "look at me - I'm wicked cool" modded vette.... so why do you care?

[canadian_hustla]

one of the best examples of this is heading on southbound crowchild right between brentwood mall and the first university turn off. There is people merging from brisbois on to crowchild - however you always get the 10 losers that want to follow the merge lane which turns into a shoulder and finally into an exit lane to head off on the university turn off. This is especially bad in the morning rush hour.

I absolutely love when there is a police car sitting on the shoulder, he sees 5 cars driving on the shoulder... waves them all to pull over and gives them a moving violation.

It always brings a smile to my face as karma is a bitch and it will always come back to you. Anyone that does this is a douche and definately deserves the ticket.

:love:

[captain134]

What you do is about equal to seeing a line a block long at Tim Hortons and just butting in front of everybody. Sure everyone else had the "opportunity" to butt in front too but obviously they don't.

The only reason you get away with it in a traffic situation is because your protected by your car. If you were in line at Tim's you wouldn't do it because you know you would eventually get punched in the face.

[v2kai]

2EFN wants attention:closed: :rofl:

[rc2002]

Originally posted by scat19
I've hds some encounters with a douche when I'm in the south

:rofl: :rofl: @ the irony in that statement.

[Mibz]

I do the same thing. If it were 10-15 cars it wouldn't be worth it, but we're talking 40 or 50 cars here, it's a loooooooong stretch. D-bag or not I'm gonna keep doing it :P

[SilverGS]

Not as bad as people going Crowchild North in the middle lane and then trying to merge into the right lane to exit onto bow at the last moment.

[Enhance]

It stuns me that you even have to ask if this is d-bag driving. Seems to me like you know it's a d-bag move, and you are looking for some sort of justification or confirmation from your d-bag peers on Beyond.

A great solution for people like you that aren't capable of critical thinking:

Categorical Imperative:
Paraphrased, it says What if everyone else did it too?

If everyone tried to ride the shoulder down deerfoot, you'd just have more volume on a road which is already way past capacity.

[Unknown303]

Using a merge lane to ifs fullest = Good driving
Using a merge lane/driving the shoulder = Your an idiot

If everyone actually used a merge lane the whole way you'd end up with the exact same thing you have now except at the end of the merge lane not at the first signs of a dotted line. This allows more vehicles into the merge lane possibly reducing congestion on the street they are coming off of.

[Nissan_Fanboy]

BHWAHAHAHA
cool story bro,
exactly what i thought of when i saw it.
naw its okay, your just a douchebag in general.
do that in a civic and see how people react

[Zero102]

Originally posted by Grogador


At least you seen/heard me coming for once. Why do you think bikers don't get exhaust tickets but ricers do?

Go take your aggression out on a hooker, like a proper D-BAG should.

What the fuck are you talking about? Unlike some of the other drivers on the road I am actually aware of the vehicles around me, bikes included.

If you have straight pipes, and my ears are ringing after you drive off then you are just abusing other drivers and that is what I have a problem with.

[bspot]

People here are idiots and don't know anything about traffic design/engineering.

Maximum flow under congestion is achieved only when cars use the ENTIRE merge lane, not stopping at the beginning of it to wait for a gap. That impacts roads upstream of them and causes a huge mess.

That said:

If the lane you are in continues on (is an offramp) and you are having to slow/stop in that lane, you're a dick. (If it ends like an actual merge lane, then you aren't).

If you drive on the shoulder you are a loser.

[2EFNFAST]

I love all you guys too :rofl:

Btw, I don't always drive on the shoulder, lol. Usually if I'm just super aggravated for some reason - 98% of the time I reach the end of the merge lane there, signal, and move over like a calm, rational person :p


Originally posted by ercchry
dear Alex,

i had a feeling that was you behind me the other day (had the shitty green jeep compass loaner car)

Not sure if serious................


Originally posted by Mibz
I do the same thing. If it were 10-15 cars it wouldn't be worth it, but we're talking 40 or 50 cars here, it's a loooooooong stretch. D-bag or not I'm gonna keep doing it :P

:thumbsup:

It seems to save about 10minutes of creeping there. Sometimes I'll take the by-pass road (i..e leave Deerfoot, up the ramp to southland and straight though and back down onto Deerfoot), but that seems to be a crap shoot. Sometimes it's free flowing, sometimes it's severly backed up, and by the time you can see what's happening on it, it's usually too late to move back.

[Pollywog]

Blasting down the merge lane to the very end and then squeezing in is uber-douchey in my opinion - that probably explains the honking.

[Eleanor]

I'll do it on the bike, not in the car.

Bike I can easily squeeze between two cars :D

[ercchry]

Originally posted by 2EFNFAST


Not sure if serious................



no really, yesterday or the day before.... turned left out of deerfoot meadows at the lights to the left of ikea.... you went around the guy in the right hand lane and then were behind me

[88CRX]

I do this every day on that section of deerfoot...... except I actually am merging from the on ramp = non-douche move.

[Tomaz]

Originally posted by bspot
People here are idiots and don't know anything about traffic design/engineering.

Maximum flow under congestion is achieved only when cars use the ENTIRE merge lane, not stopping at the beginning of it to wait for a gap. That impacts roads upstream of them and causes a huge mess.

That said:

If the lane you are in continues on (is an offramp) and you are having to slow/stop in that lane, you're a dick. (If it ends like an actual merge lane, then you aren't).

If you drive on the shoulder you are a loser.

[Nufy]

Just so I understand the OP....

You are on Deerfoot south..

Leave Deerfoot and get in the merge lane

Go to the end and then merge back onto Deerfoot ???

If so...Yeah Super Uber Douchey...


The driving on the shoulder speaks for itself.....

And I drive a Dodge pickup Truck...So I would know.....:D

[Mar]

You must be the same guy that takes the Zoo offramp during rush hour on Memorial to blast up through the lights and take the onramp farther down.

[2EFNFAST]

Originally posted by ercchry


no really, yesterday or the day before.... turned left out of deerfoot meadows at the lights to the left of ikea.... you went around the guy in the right hand lane and then were behind me

Shit that was me :rofl: :rofl:

You should have honked and waved Hi :)

[ercchry]

Originally posted by 2EFNFAST


Shit that was me :rofl: :rofl:

You should have honked and waved Hi :)

yeah i was not 100% sure, couldn't see you... since you sped by so damn fast! but i did notice that you couldnt keep up with that stupid ass compass on the ramp :rofl:

[2EFNFAST]

Originally posted by ercchry


yeah i was not 100% sure, couldn't see you... since you sped by so damn fast! but i did notice that you couldnt keep up with that stupid ass compass on the ramp :rofl:

:rofl:

[Weapon_R]

Definitely douchebag. Your time is no more important than anyone elses, which is why you get the finger from everyone.

[03ozwhip]

total douche move. everyone else is going by proper etiquette waiting to get where theyre going, what makes you so special that you dont have to wait in line? you wouldnt budge in line at the movies or any other line would you?

if it was an actual merge lane, thats different but its not. youre a douche.

[dirtsniffer]

my favorite is while waiting to get onto glenmore east from crowchild shouth. Going down crow there is a long ass merge lane that comes out by the college (50th ave i think) moving over into that lane and merging back can save a solid ten mintures (unless some tard stops early to "wait his turn"

[Hakkola]

Can't it be douchy and acceptable? I've never driven on the shoulder, only merge lanes. I was tempted to drive on the shoulder when I was stuck on deerfoot in december for an hour, but it looked like a bad move.

[Hakkola]

Originally posted by dirtsniffer
my favorite is while waiting to get onto glenmore east from crowchild shouth. Going down crow there is a long ass merge lane that comes out by the college (50th ave i think)

I did the opposite while in Uni, waiting to go to Glenmore east I would stay in the far left lane until right before the ramp, always got in, much faster.

Edit- Dammit, sorry! I meant to quote, copy edit and post in my last reply. :banghead:

[dirtsniffer]

^haha ya that works much better!! i was just trying to bring up the merge lane thing again

[CokerRat]

OP "WHen I act like a dick, all these people flip me off and honk at me. I think I'll go ask an internet forum to find if they're right."

The fact they're flipping you off and honking at you tells you what they think of you. Stop it.

[Kona9]

You make too much effort to be a douche. Just get a 4x4 truck. According to Beyond...just owning and driving one gets you the classification.

I am unaware of the area 2EFN is speaking of, but the one area that pisses a lot of people off would be Elbow north bound to Sifton Blvd. During rush hour you get the drivers in the left lane trying to squeeze in for the left advanced turn light when there is a large line of people already in line to turn.

Not only do they piss off the people that have already been waiting, but they hold up the whole left lane.

It's a catch 22. Sure people that shoulder ride, or pull last second jump ins are douchey for doing so, but going out of your way to make sure they don't get in is pretty much the same thing. Just be aware of your surroundings and adjust accordingly. If flow is that big of a deal for you, then scan your mirrors and prepare for douchbaggery. You will slow up more traffic going out of your way to ruin their plan, then if you just accept that there are idiots everywhere. Karma will get them.

[black13]

pfft, that's nothing compared to crowchild northbound right after 17th ave where you cross the downtown. I mean granted that whole area is fucked at rush hour, you got 3 lanes merging into one and fighting two downtown merging lanes.

But near the 17th ave overpass, everyone jumps in the far right lane and try to jump in right before the lane cuts off to bowtrail east. Slows the traffic in the middle lane down to a pulp and absolutely EVERYONE even grandmas do that daily.

I'm totally guilty for it too, mostly when I'm in a rush but yea it's def a douche move. If nobody would let them in, I'm sure they would eventually learn their lesson and not do it but there's always the soccer mom or somebody that let's ANYBODY in cause they feel bad. Now getting stuck behind that person would drive you nuts.

[TYMSMNY]

Originally posted by black13
pfft, that's nothing compared to crowchild northbound right after 17th ave where you cross the downtown. I mean granted that whole area is fucked at rush hour, you got 3 lanes merging into one and fighting two downtown merging lanes.

But near the 17th ave overpass, everyone jumps in the far right lane and try to jump in right before the lane cuts off to bowtrail east. Slows the traffic in the middle lane down to a pulp and absolutely EVERYONE even grandmas do that daily.

I'm totally guilty for it too, mostly when I'm in a rush but yea it's def a douche move. If nobody would let them in, I'm sure they would eventually learn their lesson and not do it but there's always the soccer mom or somebody that let's ANYBODY in cause they feel bad. Now getting stuck behind that person would drive you nuts.

Hard to tell though if that person trying to get in was doing the "douche move" or simply just go onto crowchild from 17th ave. Then you have people stop in the middle of the third lane with their signals on and wait for someone to let them in. Once that's over everyone needs to change lanes as that one goes onto Memorial AND... there's a cluster**** at that part of the bridge too. It's messed. :whipped:

[J-D]

Total d-bag move.

[speedog]

Originally posted by J-D
Total d-bag move. Totally agree and I, for one, would most likely go out of my way to make it difficult douchey one to get in front of me. Someone else in this thread posted something about karma and yeah, I've seen it first hand - someone cutting up to the end off the off ramp and smacking a broken down semi because of their inattention to where they were actually driving. If the douche in that case had merged properly, they would've never placed themselves in situation where their poor judgement KO'ed their ride. Karma - it'll get ya when ya least expect it.