Starting Salary for Software Engineer or Computer Science graduate

[jensv]

I'm graduating from the U of C with a Bachelors in Computer Science and am looking for work as a junior software developer.

Anyone know what a new graduate can expect to make? Also where are some good places to look for job postings?

According to ALIS the average salary for a programmer in Alberta is $38.17 per hour but so far I've only seen offers for ~$25 which is relatively low. On the other hand you can be working for the university doing similar work but for $10/hour!

[BlackArcher101]

That's average and you are a new grad don't forget.

With the economy being like it is, a lot of engineering professions took hits, and I would think IT is fairly week these days (I'm not in IT, so I can't say for sure).

[adam c]

with the last computer science graduate i worked with, 25 is even too much, no offense but the guy was a fucking idiot

[G]

What the fuck is wrong with society that makes people think $25 per hour is too low for a fresh undergrad. That's about 50k per year. I would not hire someone who thinks they're worth more than that with no experience.

[Skyline_Addict]

50k for a fresh graduate who has never done co-op before, would be a pretty damn good deal.

[rage2]

Originally posted by G
What the fuck is wrong with society that makes people think $25 per hour is too low for a fresh undergrad. That's about 50k per year. I would not hire someone who thinks they're worth more than than with no experience.
Because once you finish school and get that shiny new degree, you're supposed to walk straight into a 6 figure job!

At least, that's what they tell you anyways... :rofl:

[eblend]

Yah wtf is wrong with 25 and hour out of university? This isn't 2007-08 when they would hire anyone, be lucky that someone is offering you anything at all.

[snoop101]

I work with a couple new grads and I can safely say they have no clue what the real world is about. On the flip side their on this future manager plan. Do I need to say more?

[G]

Nobody believes in earning their stripes anymore and this just proves it. Any monkey can finish the CPSC degree at UofC. I bet you most of them don't know what a pointer is.

So much self entitlement nowadays. I know a lot of new grads that go lease a new $50k BMW even though they have $40k in student loans....wtf!

[G]

Originally posted by rage2

Because once you finish school and get that shiny new degree, you're supposed to walk straight into a 6 figure job!

At least, that's what they tell you anyways... :rofl:

Ten years ago when I was offered my current job a few months before I graduated the VP asked me how much I expected in terms of salary. My reply was, "It doesn't really matter because all I really want is this opportunity to get some experience and if I am what you're looking for you will compensate me accordingly down the line". That really impressed him. I did not care about money over the experience. Well maybe I didn't have lease payments on a BMW to worry about either.

[Cos]

Originally posted by rage2

Because once you finish school and get that shiny new degree, you're supposed to walk straight into a 6 figure job!

At least, that's what they tell you anyways... :rofl:

Ain't that the truth. I turned down good jobs because i didn't think 28 an hour was a good starting wage.

OP take the best job you can get regardless of pay, after a year your pay will be so different it won't matter.

[Pahnda]

Considering you don't need a degree in Software Engineering or Computer Science to do 99% of the work that graduates from those programs are expected to do, you can't expect a huge salary right out... As long as you're not an idiot you can expect a better job security (as a new grad) versus someone with a 2 year diploma though. Plus you have more wiggle room depending on what you were able to accomplish at university as it seems that people in 2 year programs never do any 'serious' project work with much variance.

[snoop101]

I like to add some advice.

Like Cos said take what you can, but my view would be to take a job that you can grow with. A lot of big companies will hire you and give you a good salary, then throw you in a position that has nothing to do with what you learned in school. after a year you will start to forget the things you were taught.

Personally your better off to start with a smaller company, less pay, but work on things you know and build from there.


Pahnda- You dont need any kinda of post secondary school at all to do most IT jobs. Based on the fact that you spent a lot of your life learning it yourself and proving to employers that you can do it. I know a lot of IT people who didnt even grad high school, but get paid more and know a LOT more then most of the grads I know. why? because they have passion in what they are doing and not just doing it because there parents wanted them to do it or some uncle said you would make a lot of money doing it.

[jensv]

Wow a lot of hate.... I'm asking a legitimate question, work hard, and don't feel entitled to anything. All of the job postings are really mum when it comes to salary. I've been offered $25/hour so that's the only data point I have. I probably shouldn't have mentioned it!

[Pahnda]

Originally posted by snoop101
Pahnda- You dont need any kinda of post secondary school at all to do most IT jobs. Based on the fact that you spent a lot of your life learning it yourself and proving to employers that you can do it. I know a lot of IT people who didnt even grad high school, but get paid more and know a LOT more then most of the grads I know. why? because they have passion in what they are doing and not just doing it because there parents wanted them to do it or some uncle said you would make a lot of money doing it.

I agree with the fact that a lot of IT jobs like network admins, bench techs, etc.. don't need any post-secondary... and that pretty much echos the first point I was making.

[snoop101]

Originally posted by jensv
Wow a lot of hate.... I'm asking a legitimate question, work hard, and don't feel entitled to anything. All of the job postings are really mum when it comes to salary. I've been offered $25/hour so that's the only data point I have. I probably shouldn't have mentioned it!

For starting out I would say low $20's is more realistic right now. Keep in mind were now getting out of a IT Bust and there is a lot of people looking for jobs that have a lot more experience then you.

Dont look at it as how much you can make, but look at it as what am I going to learn in this position.

[Skyline_Addict]

Like many are saying, take the best you can get right now, in terms of a combination of BOTH opportunity and monetary compensation.

If you don't need to make 'x' amount of dollars to put food on the table, don't be too concerned with what you make in your first job. Why would you have to be? There's more to life than just what you get paid.

Experience is key. The longer you wait for the 'perfect' opportunity, the more time you set yourself back if you would've taken an earlier opportunity.

[Cos]

Originally posted by jensv
Wow a lot of hate.... I'm asking a legitimate question, work hard, and don't feel entitled to anything. All of the job postings are really mum when it comes to salary. I've been offered $25/hour so that's the only data point I have. I probably shouldn't have mentioned it!

no hate intended. I have been in your exact boat, looking at 60/70k to start and wondering why it doesnt have 6 numbers in my salary. First off I graduated post in 2007 so it is a bit different environment than now so your salary expectations should be pretty low. Plus my industry is a bit hotter than the one your going into.

Be thankful you have a good offer, but make sure that after 2/3 years at that company people will be offering you 80/90k otherwise I would maybe look for a lower paying position but you get killer experience.

[snoop101]

Its not so much there is Hate, but people are being realistic and unfortunately a lot of grads these days think their really something special.

[lint]

Originally posted by Cos
Be thankful you have a good offer, but make sure that after 2/3 years at that company people will be offering you 80/90k otherwise I would maybe look for a lower paying position but you get killer experience.

WTF? You expect to go from $50K to $80/$90K after 3 years?

[snoop101]

Originally posted by lint


WTF? You expect to go from $50K to $80/$90K after 3 years?

Where I work for the first 5 years the grads get moved around avery 1 1/2-2 years doing different positions so they can get a feel of the company. I can say for a fact that in those 5 years they maybe go up around $10k in salary. The sad part is that its not how much they learned in those 5 years its who they worked with and sucked up too. sigh. (Sorry I have hate for that. lol.)

If you want to learn more and get paid more down the road go work at a company where IT comes first . Examples would be Telus, Shaw, Longview, Critical mass. Stay away from Oil & Gas companies. OG companies put everything else first and IT last.

[adam c]

truth be told, i never finished post secondary and yet I know more then the people coming out of school which is pretty sad since these people are supposed to be well educated and know their shit

and I'm manging the IT department of my company

[Cos]

Originally posted by lint


WTF? You expect to go from $50K to $80/$90K after 3 years?

I started at 23 an hour and am just over 80 now. Like I said I graduated in 2007. Also as I said it was all because of experience and my current roll I expect it to continue (not quite on that scale but....)


As I also said my industry is a little different than compsci so I wouldnt have quite the expectations.

[dandia89]

Originally posted by adam c
truth be told, i never finished post secondary and yet I know more then the people coming out of school which is pretty sad since these people are supposed to be well educated and know their shit

and I'm manging the IT department of my company

good job little buddy! :clap:

[Mar]

I walked out of school and into a $42,000 salary on the same degree, it'll be a few years before you get anywhere close to $60,000.

[TimG]

go on to workopolis and use their salary tool to get an idea of what you should be making.

[Grogador]

Look up your professional association (APPEGA for engineers, ASET for technologists, etc.) and find their salary survey. I'd say 40-45k is good for a new grad, altho $25/hr sounds nice. Personally, I chose experience (is this something I want to base and start advancing my career on?), company environment (do these people want to share their knowledge with me, or is it an old boy's club where everyone is afraid for their job?), and opportunities for advancement over cash and am loving it. Good luck!

[Chandler_Racing]

Originally posted by Cos


I started at 23 an hour and am just over 80 now. Like I said I graduated in 2007. Also as I said it was all because of experience and my current roll I expect it to continue (not quite on that scale but....)


As I also said my industry is a little different than compsci so I wouldnt have quite the expectations.

You're saying you make $80/hr ($153K / Year full time) - three years after graduating?

[Cos]

^^ 80k a year. No longer on hourly. Should have made that clear

[snoop101]

Originally posted by Grogador
company environment (do these people want to share their knowledge with me, or is it an old boy's club where everyone is afraid for their job?),

This..

We have one printer guy who has been doing it for over 25 years. He has his own ways of doing things and has everything setup to the way he wants it. The only Doc's are in his head. If he dies are printer system goes to the crapper. He wont train anyone and they are affraid to let him go.

[bastardchild]

School is a business. Take what you can get.

I have no degree yet I make more than people's parents put together. :rofl: (best of all... I'm not even 25 yet).

[Thomas Gabriel]

Originally posted by bastardchild

I have no degree yet I make more than people's parents put together. :rofl: (best of all... I'm not even 25 yet).

Seems gay prostitution is a profitable business. :thumbsup:

[Goodfella]

Interesting thread, I have alot of friends at the ufc
thinking that they will be making 6 figures the first year
out can't wait till reality sets in !

[eblend]

When I first started in IT at my company, I was at desktop support, doing daily support, help desk you name it, making 18 bucks an hour. In 3 years later I am hardcore into servers, networks, SAN storage ect, making nearly 2.5 times more, so like COS said, it is all about the experience, if you are smart and have passion for what you do, the money will come.

I did MIS at Haskayne, doesn't really relate to my current position (MIS is more database stuff), but the experience is key.

[Disoblige]

Originally posted by adam c
truth be told, i never finished post secondary and yet I know more then the people coming out of school which is pretty sad since these people are supposed to be well educated and know their shit

and I'm manging the IT department of my company

Honestly, I would expect those who finish post secondary know less, or probably why less than those who already have experience or those who learn through experience. It's no surprise, really.

I just started my first week on internship and I learned more in 5 days about my field than my 3 years of study @ U of C, practicality wise.

[bastardchild]

Originally posted by Thomas Gabriel


Seems gay prostitution is a profitable business. :thumbsup:

Uhhh yea sure :nut:

If you have what it takes to succeed in this world, you can do it without having to waste your time and money with school. I'm sorry but its the truth.

[Cos]

.

[whiskas]

During my CPSC internship I was making $17

After I graduated they bumped it up into the 20's.

Now, 3 years after graduating I'm already making $100k+ a year.

[911fever]

wow some of you guys are pulling down serious salaries

[5hift]

Some of these guys are probably telling the truth,

but I would trust these salary claims about as much as the guys claim to take 6 classes and get 6 A`s in the campus thread, or the guys who can all bench press 2 plates per side in the bench thread.

100K after 3 years in CPSC ... possible but not likely if you look at the average salaries in the field. Most guys 3 years out of CPSC are doing glorified tech support.

[rage2]

If you're good at what you do and prove your worth, you'll be able to pull $100k plus in 3 years no probs. That's with or without a CPSC degree.

Of course, there are very few programmers that are that good.

[punky]

Originally posted by adam c
truth be told, i never finished post secondary and yet I know more then the people coming out of school which is pretty sad since these people are supposed to be well educated and know their shit

and I'm manging the IT department of my company

To some extend i agree and some extend i disagree with you. When you graduate you don't know shit, that i agree. However, i would not underestimate a university degree (i will speak in the direction of the engineering field, because thats mainly what i know, should be similar with IT). This is my take of university, it provides two things: the ability to learn, and the fundamental knowledge of how technical things work. It does not in anyway or form provide you with field experiences, and hence new grads know fuck all about the real world. As an engineering new grad, you will get the experience everyone else is getting after you've spent a few years in the field and you'll be as good as everyone else, if not better. However, there are those that don't really like technical work, and move directly into project management related work to avoid it. Personally, i think this is the pitfall, and where we got a lot of the comments "the guy with shiny degree that doesn't know shit". Therefore, I believe people in engineering must have field experience. Sorry to bring the tech vs engg argument back, but i think its a perfectly good example. The thing that differ engineers from tech is their ability to solve more complex problems if they have to refer back to their fundamentals, of course given they (engineers and techs) have the same experience. People often forget that you spent 4 years in school while others spend 4 years in the field. Yes as a graduate you're 4 years behind in experience but you'll catch up in no time, and plus you'll have more room to grow with a degree.


Originally posted by rage2
If you're good at what you do and prove your worth, you'll be able to pull $100k plus in 3 years no probs. That's with or without a CPSC degree.

Of course, there are very few programmers that are that good.

This i agree, people shouldn't worry so much about how much their job makes initially. If you love what you do, you will excel at it, and if you are good at what you do, the money will come, regardless of what field.

[snoop101]

Originally posted by punky


To some extend i agree and some extend i disagree with you. When you graduate you don't know shit, that i agree. However, i would not underestimate a university degree (i will speak in the direction of the engineering field, because thats mainly what i know, should be similar with IT). This is my take of university, it provides two things: the ability to learn, and the fundamental knowledge of how technical things work. It does not in anyway or form provide you with field experiences, and hence new grads know fuck all about the real world. As an engineering new grad, you will get the experience everyone else is getting after you've spent a few years in the field and you'll be as good as everyone else, if not better. However, there are those that don't really like technical work, and move directly into project management related work to avoid it. Personally, i think this is the pitfall, and where we got a lot of the comments "the guy with shiny degree that doesn't know shit". Therefore, I believe people in engineering must have field experience. Sorry to bring the tech vs engg argument back, but i think its a perfectly good example. The thing that differ engineers from tech is their ability to solve more complex problems if they have to refer back to their fundamentals, of course given they (engineers and techs) have the same experience. People often forget that you spent 4 years in school while others spend 4 years in the field. Yes as a graduate you're 4 years behind in experience but you'll catch up in no time, and plus you'll have more room to grow with a degree.


The one thing I don't like about this is you say that the person who didn't go to university will have 4 years experience on top the other person. Reason I don't like this is the fact that a lot and I don't mean all IT people who went to University never really did IT related stuff before they went to school. We have two new grads in our team that never even touched dos,win 95,98,2000, or linux. I would say on Average if your 4-5 years into your IT experience as without going to school is because you have a passion for it and grew up with computers.

I hope that makes sense.

[Hakkola]

Originally posted by rage2
If you're good at what you do and prove your worth, you'll be able to pull $100k plus in 3 years no probs. That's with or without a CPSC degree.


How do you get into the industry without a CPSC degree in the first place?

[punky]

Originally posted by snoop101


The one thing I don't like about this is you say that the person who didn't go to university will have 4 years experience on top the other person. Reason I don't like this is the fact that a lot and I don't mean all IT people who went to University never really did IT related stuff before they went to school. We have two new grads in our team that never even touched dos,win 95,98,2000, or linux. I would say on Average if your 4-5 years into your IT experience as without going to school is because you have a passion for it and grew up with computers.

I hope that makes sense.

Agree, hence i said it is mostly related to engineering field.

[punky]

Originally posted by Hakkola


How do you get into the industry without a CPSC degree in the first place?

like most things in the industries, start your own, or connections. right?

[Hakkola]

Originally posted by punky


like most things in the industries, start your own, or connections. right?

Yup. And I lot of people might not have what it takes to start a business, and lack the connections to the industry, which is why I brought this up. School gets a bad name from a lot of people on Beyond, and in some cases rightfully so, but for a lot of us school is the only way into whatever industry we want to work in.

I bet if I were to try finding a tech related job I wouldn't get hired anywhere.

[jensv]

Originally posted by Hakkola


Yup. And I lot of people might not have what it takes to start a business, and lack the connections to the industry, which is why I brought this up. School gets a bad name from a lot of people on Beyond, and in some cases rightfully so, but for a lot of us school is the only way into whatever industry we want to work in.

I bet if I were to try finding a tech related job I wouldn't get hired anywhere.

I think the key is to educate yourself and develop some skills.
You could try to upgrade by taking courses at SAIT, reading books, tinkering in your free time, networking with like-minded people, etc. If you're consistent and persevere someone will notice but learning can take time.

[Mar]

Originally posted by Disoblige


Honestly, I would expect those who finish post secondary know less, or probably why less than those who already have experience or those who learn through experience. It's no surprise, really.

I just started my first week on internship and I learned more in 5 days about my field than my 3 years of study @ U of C, practicality wise. School doesn't really teach you how to do a job, they basically just teach you how to learn. So that when you do your job in that first 5 days, you can learn that much. That's what I found anyway, I was learning things and picking things up much faster than those people without the piece of paper.

[Aleks]

What's the difference between Computer Science degree an Computer Eng degree and does UofC offer Software eng programs now?

[sabad66]

^^ There is a lot of overlap with the three but they have their differences... UofC offers all three. Computer engg is a mix of electrical/software engg so you get into hardware and software stuff where as software engg is mostly software design principles. I find that the difference between software engg/cpsc is that software engg tends to focus on design more so than the actual programming, plus you get a "real" engineering degree (as opposed to a cpsc degree specializing in software engineering) so that you can become accredited by apegga.

[Mar]

Originally posted by sabad66
^^ There is a lot of overlap with the three but they have their differences... UofC offers all three. Computer engg is a mix of electrical/software engg so you get into hardware and software stuff where as software engg is mostly software design principles. I find that the difference between software engg/cpsc is that software engg tends to focus on design more so than the actual programming, plus you get a "real" engineering degree (as opposed to a cpsc degree specializing in software engineering) so that you can become accredited by apegga. Pretty much this, I have a computer science degree (Bachelor Of Science in Computer Science) and all I do is write the actual computer code. When I was going to university about 50% of my class mates were dropping out of computer science and into computer engineering because they were finding it too hard and wanted something a little easier. Whether or not computer engineering is actually an easier degree I have no idea, but that's what happened.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by rage2

Because once you finish school and get that shiny new degree, you're supposed to walk straight into a 6 figure job!

At least, that's what they tell you anyways... :rofl:

:werd:

... and you will also be doing some crazy high tech job programming launch systems for ICBMs and programming laser guided navigation systems for military aircraft.

In reality you will be debugging code for some law firms database system written 10 years ago and still running on an ancient server for $20/hr.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by Aleks
What's the difference between Computer Science degree an Computer Eng degree and does UofC offer Software eng programs now?

Computer Engineering allows you the right to be a ring wearing douchebag that never gets his P.Eng.

[scary_perry]

worry more about the type of work than the comp right now

you need to get the experience and skills required to earn the really big bucks later

the difference between 40 and 50k at your age is almost nothing

the difference between 80,000 (dba) and 350,000 (CTO at a small company) that you could be making down the road should be more of a factor in your decision

[Pahnda]

Originally posted by sputnik


:werd:

... and you will also be doing some crazy high tech job programming launch systems for ICBMs and programming laser guided navigation systems for military aircraft.

In reality you will be debugging code for some law firms database system written 10 years ago and still running on an ancient server for $20/hr.

People with those expectations from any BSc are laughable. Like expecting to be the Director of Marketing with a Haskayne BComm right out of school....

But at least with university degree you have the option of going back for advanced studies that will let you delve into your interest further and get a much better chance to do some of the really advanced work out there.

If it wasn't for my engg degree I wouldn't be able to continue on with law :D