Rebuilding Iraq

[ninjak84]

I think this situation is funnier than hell.....
My interpretation of the events, is that USA and Britain are so poor because of the "war", that they can't afford to let anyone else have rebuilding contracts. In the process of being assholes, USA and Britain are digging deeper political holes for their countries by pissing everyone else off with the "don't support, can't rebuild" policy.
Russia, France, Canada, and pretty much everyone else had a psychotic reaction to the announcement. Parliament hill in Canada erupted when the news hit!!
Personally, I don't think the USA or Britain have enough money (or brains) to rebuild. They're just going to fuck it up again, and make the Middle East that much worse.

Issues like this only make people hate America and Britain even more. I think these two countries need to follow communist Russia, and have a good ol' uprising. Americans and the British need to tie Bush and Blair to a wagon, and start whipping the horse.
Now it's just a question of:
How much longer are these two fucker's going to keep ruining global affairs?

Any thoughts?

www.nytimes.com for news on the subject.

[rc2002]

I think the US and Britain will be set if they can start producing oil out of Iraq. Especially since oil prices are so high right now. There are several multibillion dollar work contracts which will provide tons of work for the American and British people.

I was reading the issue of time magazine when they were analyzing the reasons why George Bush wanted to step into Iraq and the biggest reasons for it was economic and political. Not just it's own economy though. Russia and Syria and a bunch of other countries have spent billions on oil infrastructure and hoped to capitalize on high oil prices and demand. But if the states can tap into Iraq's vast (barely touched) reserves then they will be able to control a lot more than their own economy, and thus extend their grasp on power.

I think it was a pretty good move on Bush's part. Increase power, better their economy, lower their unemployment...

There was a comparison chart that showed how much it costed to get a barrel of oil from iraq vs. how much it costed from the states. It was incomparable. Something ridiculous like a 50000% difference. When you're talking millions of barrels/day... $$$$$

[SinisterProbeGt]

Originally posted by ninjak84
I think this situation is funnier than hell.....
They're just going to fuck it up again, and make the Middle East that much worse.

How are thay going to make it worse?
I some how dont think the amercians or the brits are going to start strapping them self up with C4 and walinkinto building or sitting on buses blowing them self up. This is the best thing that could of happened to that country. I mean seriouly you've taken a 3rd world country and brought it into the light now they will have trading agreements, free trade and exports. Things that, that country has never had under saddams rule. I dont understand this country's ideals, we will stand behind the us if its good for canada. but wont stand behind them if it's good for the world?
I say fuck'em if they were dumb enough to go after the largest power country in the world then they deserve what ever the u.s deems for them. and the crazyst thing is that they are rebuilding it. did the russians or the germans rebuild any thing they destroyed in the 1st or 2nd world war?
I think not, but the U.S is doing that today, How can you say there going to fuck it up at least there trying to help.

[littledan]

^^^ holy shit man... i don't even know where to begin!

[SinisterProbeGt]

this post is going to turn ugly I can feel it:drama:

[Khyron]

So they should what? Pull out and leave the masses to sort it out? As much as I approve of that, eventually it would come back to bite us in the ass.

Khyron

[ninjak84]

Originally posted by SinisterProbeGt
this post is going to turn ugly I can feel it:drama:

Why? Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and hopefully everyone here is mature enough to respect that!


I agree with richardchan2002 and SinisterProbeGt for the most part.
It was a really smart economical move by Bush for his country, and at least the USA is trying to help the country.

My point is, couldn't the USA and Britain have made their decision a little less agressive??
Was it really neccessary to say 'everyone else fuck off, this is our show'?
The political backlash would have been much less if the USA had said instead:
'We have the economical need for this project, and it's our mess to clean up anyways.'

[Weapon_R]

Originally posted by littledan
^^^ holy shit man... i don't even know where to begin!

I'll do it :)



Originally posted by SinisterProbeGt


How are thay going to make it worse?
I some how dont think the amercians or the brits are going to start strapping them self up with C4 and walinkinto building or sitting on buses blowing them self up. This is the best thing that could of happened to that country. I mean seriouly you've taken a 3rd world country and brought it into the light now they will have trading agreements, free trade and exports. Things that, that country has never had under saddams rule. I dont understand this country's ideals, we will stand behind the us if its good for canada. but wont stand behind them if it's good for the world?
I say fuck'em if they were dumb enough to go after the largest power country in the world then they deserve what ever the u.s deems for them. and the crazyst thing is that they are rebuilding it. did the russians or the germans rebuild any thing they destroyed in the 1st or 2nd world war?
I think not, but the U.S is doing that today, How can you say there going to fuck it up at least there trying to help.

Instead of strapping themselves up with C4's, the American's have opted for using Tomahawk Cruise Missiles. Doesn't seem a whole lot different to me, except that a cruise missile is much more damaging to the country they hope to rebuild. Better yet, why bother blowing up a bus when you can take out an entire city block like the Americans do. Props to them for not wasting their time with petty C4s!

Iraq once had a very vibrant trade and export industry. Where do you think their oil went? It was TRADED. Iraq also had one of the busiest economies of the Middle East, world class medical and educational institutions, and a thriving culture. All under Saddam's rule.

When did Iraq EVER go after the world's largest "power country"? Name ONE instance. A single one. Go for it. Here, i'll help: Iraq NEVER possessed the technology, capability, or intent of attacking Americans until the first desert war. In fact, until 1991, Iraq was the United States largest Arab ally in the Middle East. That's right, they were best friends. And they traded weapons for oil, most of which were sent to finance and fight the Iran-Iraqi war. Better yet, go to Google and find out who taught them how to make chemical and biological weapons. And who taught them how to use them and who condoned their use before 1991. :) Talk about backstabbing.

In case you were wondering, Russia did rebuild Germany after the world war. In case you didn't know, Russia occupied 1/2 of Germany and brought it back into the single most productive communist nation in the world (even surpassing the production of Russia itself). The Allies occupied the other 1/2 of Germany after the second world war, and rebuilt it also to the standards of an industrial power it enjoys today. So yes, they do rebuild after they destroy.

[Horatio]

was East Germany or West Germany the pre-"bring down the wall" economic power?

Greg

[rc2002]

Weapon R is right. The US actually put Saddam into power and supplied him with all kinds of weapons. The US new how important oil was and wanted to secure one of their largest sources.

But Saddam turned against the US and started building up a huge army so the US first tried imposing trade embargos on Iraq. But that didn't work and the Persian Gulf war started. I don't think anything ever got resolved except that Saddam got pissed off and spent all the money on his armies and his palaces and making doubles of himself instead of spending on health care, education, or even food for the people. So there was a humanitarian reason that the US went in. At least the citizens get to enjoy basic things like food and medicine that they didn't have under Saddam's autocratic dictatorship.

[Weapon_R]

Originally posted by Horatio
was East Germany or West Germany the pre-"bring down the wall" economic power?

Greg

West Germany was, but East Germany was no slouch either.

[rogue]

west germany was prosperous while east germany faltered ( dont you all remember them trying to cross to the west?) The americans did supply weapons against iran ( iran was their enemy) dont you remember the embassy situation or the fact that hezbollah started in Iran. Most of the weapons in Iraq came from Russia and France. The British and Americans supplied some chemical but never bio and they regreted it. (how do you think they KNEW that iraq had chemicals) Also why should the Americans and British let other countries in to make the money after they sacrificed lives and money while we sat around and bitched about "stupid Americans" for cryin out loud our own politicians made this mistake on more then one occasion ON CAMERA. I dont blame them and i think they made the right decision going in, right now they are taking a hit but if you let Saddam stay and keep constructing the "weapons of mass destruction" then ultimatly the situation will worsen. Dont forget about the Canadian made SUPER GUN saddam had for firing chemicals into israel, we arent any better then the brits or americans. Now that the Americans are there the Iranians are having second thoughts about their nuclear production, now how safe would you feel if Iran had nuclear missles. Dont say AMERICA HAS THEM because the policitical situation in the middleast is EXTREMELY volatile at best so dont compare them to the americans, british, french and even china or Russia. (as for india and pakistan that scares me enough.) well my 2 cents (or $2.50) sorry for the novel just so much to be said.

[Weapon_R]

Originally posted by rogue
west germany was prosperous while east germany faltered ( dont you all remember them trying to cross to the west?)

I'm not going to argue that one, I totally agree, in terms of West Germany, East Germany did not do well. However, E. Germany surpassed Russia in productivity at one point in time, making it the most productive communist state and one of the industrial powerhouses in the world. Remember, in terms of most other countries, both E. and W. Germany were right up there. Beating Russia in production at that time was not an easy task, as there were immense efforts towards furthering heavy industry in Russia.

[rogue]

i was just comparing it to a east vs west standpoint industrially speaking the whole eastern block or warsaw pact was powerful unfortunatly they played catchup during the 20th century as they were almost 100yrs behind western countries. Now just think of what fast forwarding 100yrs of research and development will do to a country. Now look at Russia, former Yugoslavia, Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine and so on. Their industrial dreams ultimatly destroyed their social and political systems. Thank god i was born in Canada.:D

[hjr]

Originally posted by richardchan2002
There was a comparison chart that showed how much it costed to get a barrel of oil from iraq vs. how much it costed from the states. It was incomparable. Something ridiculous like a 50000% difference. When you're talking millions of barrels/day... $$$$$ My only argument with this point is that the chart did NOT take into account the BILLIONS of dollars that are being spend to secure that oil. It truly is not economically sound to spend as much as they are just to give american corperations a new place to make lots of money.

Not to mention, we all seem to forget, they are not a totalitarian state, the government doesnt reap the profits of commodities such as oil, oil companies do. Granted they get a fraction back in tax's but that is negligable.

It would of course boost the economy, but there are far better ways to do it that benifit the US rather than Iraq. But ill be back later to argue more... ;)

[rogue]

whatever helps american companies ultimatly helps america. They will prolly just say it is for security issues ie, those who arent with us are against us. New alliances are being formed and old ones are dieing, the world is about to change for good or for worse.

[A_3]

If you look back George W. is repeating history and not in a good way, during the 1800's France taxed the poor extremely heavily inorder to finance their kings erratic behavior, all the poor people there rioted and France suffered a period of massive civil unrest... Now to the 21ish century George W. cut the taxes from the rich of American leaving the poor burdened with his raising taxes to finance his erratic behavior lol yeah Iraq, maybe America will smarten up and kick his ass outa office next election. Lol i dunno about you but some civil unrest in America would be some funny shit:thumbsup:

[hjr]

Originally posted by A_3
maybe America will smarten up and kick his ass outa office next election. Lol i dunno about you but some civil unrest in America would be some funny shit:thumbsup: ha, wouldnt that be nice, but it aint gonna happen. The Conservative party cant even pick someone to run against him (cause there is no good choice). Even Gore isnt running, cause he knows its a lost cause. I expect to see him in 2008 though!

[rogue]

ahhhhh politics is so damn frusterating. Its even worse here in the cold north dammit. Ah well what can you do except :banghead: .

[el_fefes]

I think rebuilding iraq is a lost cause...it's gonna be very hard if not impossible to stop all the terrorism/guerilla fighting happening, although they are small blows, blow by blow they giant will end up falling. i think it's just how much the american ppl can take (death, and money losses) the US, was just trying to kickstart their economy after 9/11, and what better way to do it than with a war? (most major wars have benefited the states economically) this one might turn to a Vietnam...

[davidI]

Just a point to add towards Bush telling France and Russia they can't have any of these contracts....

Guess who Iraq owes the most money to? France and Russia! Are they going to be more likely to forgive their debts as the US wants them too now that they cannot get any contracts? Doubtful...

It was stupid on Bush's part in my opinion to tell all these other countries they can't get in on the contracts because in reality, the United States was probably going to get 90% of the contracts anyways.

[4wheeldrift]

Originally posted by davidI

It was stupid on Bush's part in my opinion to tell all these other countries they can't get in on the contracts because in reality, the United States was probably going to get 90% of the contracts anyways. They had already promised a big chunk of the oilfield rebuilding stuff to Halliburton and Bechtel anyways. It's going to be A LONG time before the US sees even a tenth of what they are putting into Iraq now come back out (if it ever does).

[3g4me]

Americans wont uprise against their president, there too proud. The whole world thinks bush is crazy and americans think he's a genius.:rolleyes:

[accordboi_02]

Originally posted by 3g4me
Americans wont uprise against their president, there too proud. The whole world thinks bush is crazy and americans think he's a genius.:rolleyes:

Actually, no they don't.
I have a lot of friends in the US, ranging from the West Coast all the way to Tenn. From my experience, educated Americans do not think that Bush is a genius (granted, ratio wise, it is a small sample)... maybe if you went to hill-billy Ark. you'll find people who worship him, but it seems that the majority either a)regret putting him into office or b) accept him b/c the Democrats have NO ONE to stand up as a leader to challenge Bush.
What's the latest approval poll for Bush? I don't think it's much higher than 50%?

He's ripe for the picking, and the next election is the Democrats to lose... all they have to do is get their act together, and have a good strong candidate for President.

[davidI]

Originally posted by 4wheeldrift
They had already promised a big chunk of the oilfield rebuilding stuff to Halliburton and Bechtel anyways. It's going to be A LONG time before the US sees even a tenth of what they are putting into Iraq now come back out (if it ever does).

That may be true! I was just going off what I saw an old presidential advisor/harvard prof was saying on MSNBC.

[hjr]

Originally posted by 4wheeldrift
They had already promised a big chunk of the oilfield rebuilding stuff to Halliburton and Bechtel anyways. It's going to be A LONG time before the US sees even a tenth of what they are putting into Iraq now come back out (if it ever does). vindicated!!! The US govt. itself doesnt get any money from Iraq, but they are pumping billions in...

[redec]

Originally posted by rogue
...keep constructing the "weapons of mass destruction" then ultimatly the situation will worsen.

um...what weapons of mass destruction.....that was all a bullshit story to justify invading iraq


Originally posted by rogue

Dont say AMERICA HAS THEM because the policitical situation in the middleast is EXTREMELY volatile at best so dont compare them to the americans, british, french and even china or Russia.

um....you feel alot safer w/ the nukes in the hands of the americans?....US is by far the most agressive country in the world - they've invaded more countries in the last 100 years than every other country in the world combined. All it takes is for them to realize they want something we have, and they will attack us. Don't kid yourself...the fact that we're 'friends' holds no bearing....US used to be friends w/ Iraq too....

[accordboi_02]

Originally posted by redec

um....you feel alot safer w/ the nukes in the hands of the americans?....US is by far the most agressive country in the world - they've invaded more countries in the last 100 years than every other country in the world combined. All it takes is for them to realize they want something we have, and they will attack us. Don't kid yourself...the fact that we're 'friends' holds no bearing....US used to be friends w/ Iraq too....

I'm sorry - that has to be one of the most asinine statements I have ever heard.

Last I checked, we do have stuff the US wants: oil, gas, fresh water, hydro electricity - and I can say that I would be more worried about some extremist terrorist setting off a chemical/biological/nuclear weapon in Canada than the US deciding to nuke us.

I don't agree with everything the US has done over the past 100 years, but let's put it into perspective... from the end of WWII up until the late 80's there were two superpowers. Now if you're referring to the proxy wars that the US fought with the USSR as part of their "invasions" I ask you this: how would you have handled it differently, only knowing the domino theory? would you have just let the USSR go in and spread it's opposing ideals, b/c you don't want to 'invade' a country??

I seriously don't understand why everyone is bashing the US... they're the only superpower in the world right now, so anytime something goes wrong, who does the world turn to? they are under the microscope 24/7 and yes, their invasion of Iraq is questionable, but I still choose to look at the bigger picture: everyone who is bashing the US, would you rather that the USSR won the cold war?? I'm /sure/ it'd be a better world that way, I mean, stuff like this forum wouldn't even exist, unless approved by the "Party"... yeah, so US sucks at everything, and are the worst thing to ever happen to the world.

And I'll bet that everyone who thinks it's easy to be the only superpower in the world thinks that the easiest job in the world would be a CEO of a multi-billion dollar corporation too. :rolleyes:

The last thing I will say is this: I know that if anyone decided to attack Canada, the US would be the first nation to help us out; whether you want to admit it or not, they have our backs (irregardless of their reasons for it). Too bad we can't say the same (I'm referring to our initial reaction after 9/11, NOT Iraq).

[rogue]

nicely said accordboi, and redec i DO feel alot safer with nukes in the hands of americans then in the hands of Iraq, Iran, Pakistan and the list will go on to name almost every country in asia, middle east and southamerica. I am not RACIST at all but these countries prove to be highly volatile and you never know WHO is gonna come into power. Saddam and NUKES = END OF ISRAEL and a big chunk of the US gone. Dont you think what happens to the US will ultimatly effect us? What county do you live in for you to believe this? Canada is reliant on the US and vice versa we are a couple so to speak and yes we have our dissagreements but in the end we a together so think before you write these things and if you really believe them then i am afraid of what the world will become in the near future.

[itsalebaron]

Originally posted by accordboi_02


The last thing I will say is this: I know that if anyone decided to attack Canada, the US would be the first nation to help us out; whether you want to admit it or not, they have our backs (irregardless of their reasons for it). Too bad we can't say the same (I'm referring to our initial reaction after 9/11, NOT Iraq).

:thumbsup:

Well said .. I think its weird how you guys that are faulting the US all live in a country which is free. If Iraq was so great beofre why didn't you all move there? I am not saying I agree with the Americans 100%, hell I have family over there risking their lives, which have NO choice to be there even if they disagree with the actions of the US. I do however think its funny how everyone is all up in arms when they start to treat the Iraqi people so terrible and make them prisioners in their own homes. The general Iraqi population has treated the females in the country far worse, seems they can sure dish it out but they are the first crying when it happens to them. Karmas a bitch. Oh wait the US is breaking all these rules of war and that makes them so terrible. BUT since the terrible things Saddaam did were legal and accepted in his culture that makes them all good. Give me a break. The way I look at it given the chance to live in the way Iraq was before the war or living in the USA, 100% of those against the USA would have chosen the USA. So why not just admit things were fucked up over there and they are not going to end up worse. The US is not going to go all crazy car bomber and take over the world.

[Wildcat]

Originally posted by ninjak84
I think this situation is funnier than hell.....
My interpretation of the events, is that USA and Britain are so poor because of the "war", that they can't afford to let anyone else have rebuilding contracts. In the process of being assholes, USA and Britain are digging deeper political holes for their countries by pissing everyone else off with the "don't support, can't rebuild" policy.
Russia, France, Canada, and pretty much everyone else had a psychotic reaction to the announcement. Parliament hill in Canada erupted when the news hit!!
Personally, I don't think the USA or Britain have enough money (or brains) to rebuild. They're just going to fuck it up again, and make the Middle East that much worse.

Issues like this only make people hate America and Britain even more. I think these two countries need to follow communist Russia, and have a good ol' uprising. Americans and the British need to tie Bush and Blair to a wagon, and start whipping the horse.
Now it's just a question of:
How much longer are these two fucker's going to keep ruining global affairs?

Any thoughts?

www.nytimes.com for news on the subject.


They did the exact same thing in afganistan... cant say im shocked, why would anyone else be? god bless america :thumbsdow