Wedding Photographer Review: Mike Boldt

[R-Audi]

After Months of looking around, meeting with several photographers and looking at various packages my Wife and I decided to hire Mike Boldt as our Wedding photographer. We met with Mike twice to look at his portfolio and discuss various packages.
We ended up choosing a package that included Engagement Shots, Full Day Wedding coverage, a CD with all images, a Poster, $250 print credit and 3 albums. The total cost was $2,800. We were more then happy with this price, as we got everything that we wanted.

Engagement Shots:
The shots went well, as we met in the Beltline and spent an hour or two walking around getting shots. We were happy with how they all turned out, and got a DVD copy a few weeks after. So far we were thrilled with Mike.

Wedding Day:
Mike ended up bringing his Mom as a helper, and we were thrilled to have another person for different aspects.
However as the day went on, it became more and more evident that it was actually Mikes Mom that ran the show. She was the one who took care of the details, arranged the dresses, placing everyone and that sort of thing. Mike seemed to overlook many of these details, and luckily his Mom was there to catch them. As a pair they worked great!


After the Wedding:
Mike got us a DVD with our pictures about a month after the wedding. We were happy with the timing, and also happy with the results. We asked for a few photoshop changes, and he agreed to make them.

Up next was arranging a time to meet to discuss prints and our photo album. This is where things went wrong..

For the next 8 months we tried and tried to set something up without result. In 2010 alone, I sent 18 emails, in which he replied to 6. Thats a 3-1 ratio for returned emails.. and typically the ones that were returned took several days. My last 4 emails have gone without a single response!!
I constantly see pictures posted on Beyond from Mike of various car shots or track days, yet he wont take the time to respond to an email from a current paying client. Unacceptable!!

Final result, My Wife and I have given up on Mike.
We are now sourcing our own albums and taking care of the prints ourselves. Luckily we only paid $1,000 of the $2,800 and are able to use the $1,800 to get everything done ourselves. We also have to get a friend to complete the final touch ups that Mike had agreed to do previously. The Albums and prints were supposed to be gifts for our parents, and 8 months later we have nothing to show. (Any recommendations for a place to do albums would be appreciated)


Mike;
If you are reading this, take it as a wake-up call. This is a Customer Service Orientated business, and you need a major overhaul in how you run your business. Returning emails in anything longer then 24-48 hours is unacceptable, and not returning emails at all is embarrassing. Its unacceptable!! We could get over small things like your Mom handling the small details, but this is too much. You need to grow up and if this is something you want to do, and you need to take it seriously. Its obvious that your specialty is Automotive, and if thats the case dont do anymore Weddings. I am the one who pushed for you, and I am left with egg on my face.


Now I know quite a few people on Beyond are friends with Mike, and to date I have heard nothing but praise for him. I expect as with anything friends will stick up for him, but if you were in my shoes you wouldn't be feeling any different. I paid good money for a service in which I never received, and rightfully so Im not happy about it. I have all correspondance saved, and feel that all of the details are accurate.


-Mark

[Melinda]

Well written review. Hopefully you guys get everything ironed out. If you need some help sourcing professional prints and albums, there are a lot of us here who can give you a hand.

[quazimoto]

I'm just highly confused as to why you only paid $1,000 of the $2,800. That's the part which has me scratching my head a little.

[Kloubek]

Probably worked it out in the agreement... $1000 up front, and $1800 once everything is completed.

R-Audi: From what you have said (and I suspect it is pretty much dead-on), it does sound like he's dropped the ball for some reason. But at the end of the day, you had a professional photographer (and we all know Mike is a good one) take all your shots for a grand. I think that is a pretty smokin' deal.

I'm not saying he should not have returned your emails or anything like that. You're right - it is a customer-service based business and acting all shady like that is not acceptable in the slightest.

But at the end of the day, it actually sounds like you got a pretty decent deal in the end!

[R-Audi]

The $1,000 was an initial deposit, paid before any work was done to secure our booking. The final $1,800 was due once everything was complete. Since he didnt complete the work, I didnt pay. If I had paid the full amount, I wouldnt have been so patient.


Paying $1k for a Wedding/Engagement shots, DVD copies of all photos and a poster isnt a bad deal by itself... its just not the deal I made.

[quazimoto]

See that's just against the norm and hence why I find it confusing. Most photographers want full payment just because they still need to pay for the prints/books which can be very expensive especially if you want good quality books and prints. In all seriousness high quality prints that are done professional and mounted on different substrates are bloody expensive.

[Cos]

Well written review. Too bad it came to this. Hopefully just a mis-understanding as both of you seem like good members. To be fair though, you were very patient. Christ I couldnt wait 10 months for photos.

[EvolizePhoto]

Sorry to hear about your situation.

Should have PM'd quazi, he's amazing :love:

[R-Audi]

If we even got to the point of ordering albums and prints I would of had no problem in paying the final amount.. truth is we never got close, in fact we never even got to see sample photo albums.

Mike works at a Camera Store, so I imagine he was doing the prints there, and the only printed item we received was a poster.

[shutterbug_art8]

As a business owner, I can tell you it's all about networking.
Definitely talk and listen to your customers! They help you improve your business and help you grow (referrals).

[HondaKid]

That review will cost far more than the lost customer (OP), pity as the photographer has a record of good work. There is more to this than one screwed up post wedding session, we are certain to hear from Mike's end of the story. Perhaps something is going on in his life that is more important than wedding photography. Hope it ends well.

[quazimoto]

Well the $1,000 just for photo time honestly is a smoking deal. Hopefully it all works out for you. I helped a good friend out of a similar situation back in September, well similar but not. Her photographer botched all her photos and didn't want to talk to her after she sent him an email conveying her disappointment.

In her case she paid $5000 and has had a horrible time trying to get any of the money back that she is currently owed. This photographer in particular tried giving me grief after I did her thank you cards, prints and albums for her stating, "I had no right" to steal his business apparently. I more a less tried to ask him how I was stealing business that he didn't want. Not to mention the fact I did it all at cost for my friend :)

[R-Audi]

The one thing that kept bugging at me was seeing other pictures of Mikes posted on Beyond.. (The latest being CMSRX7's track photos) Mike had time to go to those shoots.. take pictures..touch them up... then post them here, and I couldnt even get an email returned.. He had time for many other things, and we fell to the gutter.

I have heard many other Wedding photo nightmares, in the grand scheme of things mine isnt terrible, but at the same time I am not by any means satisfied.

[core_upt]

Originally posted by quazimoto
Well the $1,000 just for photo time honestly is a smoking deal.

Good deal for sure, just as R-Audi said, not the deal he made. So when he's waiting to get prints/photobooks sent out as gifts, it doesn't do him any good to not have them.

Also, regarding payment up front.... I'd would have a hell of a hard time paying a wedding photographer entirely up front. Deposit to confirm booking and balance due once everything is done is fair. Paying up front opens the door for no shows or sub-par work without much recourse. And I know the upfront costs of print/mounts/book are significant, but that's the cost of the business - and the markup most photogs charge justify it.

[The_Rural_Juror]

I'm puzzled why you would get a vehicle photographer to document your wedding.

For $2800, you should have been able to get someone who specializes in weddings, or close to that anyway.

[quazimoto]

It's fairly uncommon to not ask for full payment prior to the wedding or by the conclusion of the wedding date. I would say its exceptionally rare to find a photogrpaher that doesn't want full payment by the end of the wedding day.

I used to at one point accept payment when I delivered the photos and stopped after one client kept giving me bad cheques and another it took 4 months just to finally get payment. When you do this for a full time living it's very hard to not require full payment on the wedding day. Granted this is also now a reason I only accept debit, visa, mastercard and american express.

Many photographers have really low profit margins when it comes to printed products. If anything you want your clients getting books and prints done through you since it is direct marketing material. I know there are some that are way overprice as I have seen at the wedding expo however these tend to be the same photographers that think $5 for a 4"x6" print is justified.

In any event I hope you are able to get this all sorted out with as little stress as possible. I am willing to help you out as well as I have done this a few times in the past.

[R-Audi]

Originally posted by The_Rural_Juror
I'm puzzled why you would get a vehicle photographer to document your wedding.

For $2800, you should have been able to get someone who specializes in weddings, or close to that anyway.

When I initially booked Mike, was was doing Weddings. He had done several in the months before mine, had a portfolio of Wedding pictures and even had a section on his website. I wouldnt have picked someone with zero experience.

[scat330]

Wow, I thought this was just going to be another praise.

I absolutely HATE when someone just breaks communication, it really irks me.

I hope you get the prints and whatnot all perfect for your memories etc!

[BrknFngrs]

I had no idea that normal practice was to pay for wedding photos 100% upfront; good on you R-Audi for holding back a portion.

[shakalaka]

I can understand why photographers would wont the whole amount upfront. But I can also understand why a customer would like to hold a certain part of the payment until the product is delivered. Had R-Audi paid everything upfront, I am sure he would have been so much more pissed off at this situation and possibly out of a certain amount of money.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by shakalaka
I can understand why photographers would wont the whole amount upfront. But I can also understand why a customer would like to hold a certain part of the payment until the product is delivered. Had R-Audi paid everything upfront, I am sure he would have been so much more pissed off at this situation and possibly out of a certain amount of money.

I agree with this...I can see why a photographer would want all money up front (rentals, etc.) but on the other side of things, if the client doesn't get results up to their expectations they are likely SOL unless they want to spend time & more money on litigation. Unless the photographer had one hell of a reputation I wouldn't feel comfortable paying 100% upfront either.

I'm curious to hear the other side of this story and the outcome as both people appear to be mature and respected members of this site.

[blitz]

Review was very well written and presented very fairly.

I for one NEVER pay the full amount upfront for any type of service. Once the money's out of your hands, you lose all power.

[Weapon_R]

Originally posted by quazimoto
It's fairly uncommon to not ask for full payment prior to the wedding or by the conclusion of the wedding date. I would say its exceptionally rare to find a photogrpaher that doesn't want full payment by the end of the wedding day.


It's not as uncommon as you might think. Most wedding photographers I contacted wanted half up front and the rest upon delivery of the pics. I personally would never hire anyone who wanted everything up front, especially when the photographs and files could remain in their possession until payment is received.

[max_boost]

Yeah nothing irritates me more than poor communication. Well, like you said, you only paid 1/3 so that's a good thing I suppose. But yeah this is a very poor display of professionalism.

[quazimoto]

Originally posted by Weapon_R


It's not as uncommon as you might think. Most wedding photographers I contacted wanted half up front and the rest upon delivery of the pics. I personally would never hire anyone who wanted everything up front, especially when the photographs and files could remain in their possession until payment is received.


Also depends if you also hire somebody that believes accepting cash and cheques is a good way of doing business. I do scratch my head at those which pay for everything using CASH. You also wouldn't see many photographers staying in business very long. I can give a few examples of photographers that were taking 6 months plus to deliver just the discs and to say the least their business has disappeared just through word of mouth. The internet is a very powerful information medium.

[Go4Long]

I'm sure everyone here thinks I would side with mike here, but honestly, I proposed to my girlfriend last week and while we've been discussing plans it came about that I get to choose the photographer...mike's name didn't make the list simply because of situations like this...he finds things he wants to do more and ignores prior commitments, his phone, his e-mail, whatever while he pursues it instead.

[Melinda]

Meh, when I shoot a wedding I collect a $500 deposit and the rest to be received upon delivery of the final product (disk of photos). Not only are they happy that they have product in hand before being out the money, but it drives me harder to get the photos done asap, knowing that I don't get paid until the client gets their finished product.

quasi- what's wrong with taking cash and cheques for work? I personally do a happy dance of joy when people pay for a shoot or a wedding in cash.

[Redlyne_jr]

Coming from both your perspective and as a close friend of mike even i can say sometimes mike does take a little longer to process photo's, editing and processing is a detailed and super time consuming job not to mention mike is trigger friendly from my experience he can shoot close to a 1000pictures in one night (different form of photography Automotive) with that being said i know for a fact the average turn around time on processing albums and having printing done is also time consuming a couple months is not unheard of and i'm sure others can vouch for this.. I know for a fact that mike has no intention to ditch your wedding or even go as far as to not do the work that he said he would.. My advise is to try and contact him one last time as im sure he is willing to sort the situation out with you.. Suggestion would be to get him on the phone as emails are sort of impersonal and try to sort it out.... hopefully you get it sorted out and best of luck :thumbsup:

[The_Rural_Juror]

Hey congrats there, Go4Bikes. Let us know who you end up choosing.

[Go4Long]

at the moment we are leaning towards doing the wedding on the west coast, so it would be a vancouver based photographer most likely ;)

[D'z Nutz]

I also collect a partial deposit for weddings and all major shoots. If someone expected me to give me 100% of the balance before the job was complete, I'd tell them to fuck off because you're giving them all the power to do whatever the hell they want. What if the photog went AWOL after the client gave him or her the whole balance?

Me taking only a partial deposit gives my clients some peace of mind and something for me to work for.

[Melinda]

Originally posted by Redlyne_jr
Coming from both your perspective and as a close friend of mike even i can say sometimes mike does take a little longer to process photo's, editing and processing is a detailed and super time consuming job not to mention mike is trigger friendly from my experience he can shoot close to a 1000pictures in one night (different form of photography Automotive) with that being said i know for a fact the average turn around time on processing albums and having printing done is also time consuming a couple months is not unheard of and i'm sure others can vouch for this.. I know for a fact that mike has no intention to ditch your wedding or even go as far as to not do the work that he said he would.. My advise is to try and contact him one last time as im sure he is willing to sort the situation out with you.. Suggestion would be to get him on the phone as emails are sort of impersonal and try to sort it out.... hopefully you get it sorted out and best of luck :thumbsup:
If you read the thread, the clients have their photos but they haven't even seen a sample album, let alone started image selection and design. So the months that it takes for an album to be put together (which is kind of a load of shit as an album can easily be done in a few weeks time depending on the company you're using) is irrelevant and makes it sound like you're just sticking up for your friend. If you aren't involved with the wedding directly, why are you speaking for Mike or promising this guy anything about what Mike is going to do?

[R-Audi]

The phone number I had for Mike is no longer in service. Around our Wedding he lost his cell phone, and I think amongst the chaos I lost his new number. To the point where we got the DVD with our pictures, we hadnt had any problems communicating via email, so I had no reason to change our methods. Actually thats not true, I would have to dig up the exact date, but I did give him a 'stern' email letting him know that his communication was not up to par. (To which I received a response that same day)
Anyways.. it got better.. then got worse again.

I'm sure Mike is a 'chill guy', he just has to get his shit together if he wants to move forward with any sort of business. Ignoring clients who have paid you for services, and are due to pay you more for services is no way to run a business. I truly hope he does figure things out on his end, as its obvious that he does have an eye for photography...

[quazimoto]

I have been speaking with Mike and I'm willing to work with him to get it all resolved and hopefully this is parlayed to the OP. I think this can all be worked out though. It may have boiled down to the lack of communication and I can understand how that would drive a person crazy. I can kind of see what was happening from both sides and I'll leave it at that.

As per the comments regarding cash and cheques. Cash I will still accept however I always recommend to the client first and foremost the other payment options being visa, mastercard, amex and direct debit payments. The reasons for this as a business are quite straight forward. In the past on more than one occasion and this will sound rather odd but twice I got stiffed on two weddings and one time was given 4 counterfeit $100 bills and of course the client refused to repay after the photos were given to them. I don't know about you but this is my view and honestly it's how it works. And when I say I got stiffed the clients gave me bad cheques. In instance the couple even told me they overspent on their month long european honeymoon and didn't have the money anymore. I've had some bad experiences unfortunately and that's all it takes.

I could see this being an issue for the photographers I hear that take months upon months even years to give a disc back. I would like to think most photographers have photos done in the 2-4 week time period.

A photographer for a wedding can easily put 40-60 hours of their time up from actual photography time, driving around and the tedious editing which can easily take all week. When you get stiffed out of two jobs you'll never let it happen again especially when it was you do for a living. The fact is a cheque is as the bank puts it, "A promise to pay" and is not the same thing as cash or a direct payment. This is one reason why I stopped accepting them.

I don't make it to be rude or anything but in the vast majority of situations you don't know the photographer and they don't know you. The only thing you can really rely upon is the photographer's history in this business and to some degree reviews on the internet. I mean the really bad photographers will have numerous complaints with the better business bureau for one. It's just a super tough spot to be in as a Bride looking to hire a photographer as you are mainly in the dark since most people don't often go out and hire a professional photographer that is asking for thousands upon thousands of dollars.

[R-Audi]

Originally posted by quazimoto
I have been speaking with Mike and I'm willing to work with him to get it all resolved and hopefully this is parlayed to the OP. I think this can all be worked out though. It may have boiled down to the lack of communication and I can understand how that would drive a person crazy. I can kind of see what was happening from both sides and I'll leave it at that.


If there is something in my post that isnt 100% accurate, please let me know and I will be the first to apologize and change it immediately.. I believe everything I have said is accurate, and can back it up with copies of emails.

I can only see things from my perspective, since the last time Mike was in contact with me was March 15th. I would love a response/apology/whatever from Mike, and I find it quite ironic that he gets someone else on Beyond to try and resolve this.. (No disrespect meant to you Quazi)

I'm all for resolving issues, but to me at this point my $1,800 is better spent elsewhere. I don't believe that Mike deserves the profit that is gained from purchasing $250 worth of prints and 3 albums for my $1,800.

On top of all of this, Mike also said he would also do a small car shoot for me as well.. it was more of a freebie tossed in as a favor, but yet another promise gone wayward. (I may not have this in email, but it was said as we set up for our engagement shots, as I was checking out his rig setup in his trunk.)

[quazimoto]

Not saying nothing you said wasn't accurate. The post you made seemed fair to me. I can just understand the reasoning from Mike's point of view as to why there was delays on the albums. I'm not really on anybody's side here and as I told Mike tonight I'd be there more so as a mediator to ensure both parties ended up being happy. I just really dislike seeing couples from a wedding having a hard time which ends up causing them more stress from their wedding.

In any event I told Mike tonight to talk to you and I would urge you to speak to him. He didn't come to me asking for me to resolve this for him, he came to me asking for advice. Based upon what he told me I offered to help both of you to hopefully resolve the situation.

[Melinda]

No offense to anyone involved here, and good on you quazi for offering to help, but by bringing in a mediator that this client doesn't really know and has never really dealt with for a situation that he is still being remarkably calm and level headed about just makes Mike look terrible. Why can't he handle this issue himself? Was the client even asked if he wants a mediator? It looks like all the OP wanted is direct communication with Mike to deal with the issue at hand, not for Mike to hide behind some buddy of his who means well but doesn't really need to be involved in the situation at all.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Why doesn't Mike just call up R-Audi and handle this directly? Regardless of what happened this makes him look pretty bad IMO. You shouldn't have to go asking for advise in a situation like this - the job should have been completed ASAP or at the very least the lines of communication kept open. That is just my opinion, of course, based on the info in this thread.

[quazimoto]

I actually don't know Mike that well Melinda. He's just helped me with some large equipment purchases. The issue isn't even complex and I don't want to say what it is in a public forum.

[Melinda]

:facepalm:

Good luck to you, r_audi. My offer stands to help you out if you sever ties and need assitance sourcing albums or professional prints.

[Sykes]

Quazi, as Melinda as already said, good on you for wanting to help with the situation, but what Mike really needs to do is come out from hiding and face the music - it already looks bad on his part and avoiding it as long as he has only further perpetuates the cycle.

I suspect that Mike is aware of what's being discussed in this thread.

Mike, chances are you are feeling pretty badly about the whole situation - I would too because it's clear you are passionate about photography (and it shows in much of your work). So you dropped the ball for whatever reason - it's not the end of the world. R-Audi may be displeased with the service you provided (and from the sounds of it, rightly so) but it also sounds like he's willing to address the situation in a responsible and mature manner. Just contact him, make it right, and move on.

We all make mistakes.

[beyond_ban]

I am just wondering why Mike doesn't speak up. I am sure there is a reasonable excuse, and if not then apologize and move on.

[LongCity]

Weird how he has time to contact and discuss with other people about his issue but can't make the effort to directly contact the person whom he has/had a business deal with. It's nice to deal with a stand up person regardless if they have issues. If there are problems, make it clear. I'm 100% positive any customer would like to be kept informed with the progress or lack of of their products/services; it's just nice to know. No one likes to be dragged around. In essence, r-audi's situation is like him getting a bouncing cheque or fake currency.

[R-Audi]

Mike has sent me a pm here... ( I'm guessing because multiple people have let him know about the post) and I am certainly open to discussion. If anything is resolved, I will update my situation.

[blitz]

The weird thing is, who wouldn't do a few hours of work for $1800?

[atgilchrist]

Originally posted by Go4Long
at the moment we are leaning towards doing the wedding on the west coast, so it would be a vancouver based photographer most likely ;)

If you do Okanagan, check out: http://www.adrianphotography.ca/ . They're doing my wedding, and the engagement pictures we got back are unreal.

[scat330]

Originally posted by R-Audi
Mike has sent me a pm here... ( I'm guessing because multiple people have let him know about the post) and I am certainly open to discussion. If anything is resolved, I will update my situation.

Good luck, but honestly, 8 months, no communication, and hiding on a public forum = why would you want to continue?

[5hift]

Yah gotta agree with scat he sounds like a little bitch

Hides in his little hole, surfacing probably when mommy lets him out

He knew you were trying to get a hold of him, and that there is a thread discrediting him, and all he can manage is a measly pm a day later.

[R-Audi]

We are moving forward to find a solution and Quazimoto is being a great help to both of us in doing so.

Contrary to the opinion people might have of Mike based on my posts, he is a good guy and does want to resolve this issue, its just too bad that it came to the point where I had to make negative posts to get his attention. I will be sure to update with our progress.
Im not sure if he is going to post here to try and save face or not, thats completely up to him.

[msommers]

Good to hear things are getting dealt with. It's rather unfortunate that it did come to this.

I don't know Mike but I do know how he operates and communication is one of his attributes that needs a lot of work. From a personal standpoint, to others on beyond, lack of communication has not been confined to this issue. I really enjoy some of the photos he has put out, but would never consider him for any type of shoot in the future.

From a business standpoint, it makes absolutely little to no sense why this issue would even exist. I'll have to stop myself here or I'll go on a rant about business practices. I'll never understand why people choose to run businesses in certain ways.

[Redlyne_jr]

Originally posted by Melinda

If you read the thread, the clients have their photos but they haven't even seen a sample album, let alone started image selection and design. So the months that it takes for an album to be put together (which is kind of a load of shit as an album can easily be done in a few weeks time depending on the company you're using) is irrelevant and makes it sound like you're just sticking up for your friend. If you aren't involved with the wedding directly, why are you speaking for Mike or promising this guy anything about what Mike is going to do?

I think you entirely misinterpreted my comment, nor at any time was i making excuses or promises for mike.. I have no affiliation with mike just speaking from my experiences with him.. I totally understand the frustration that R-Audi is going through i said myself mike does take longer than any other photographer i have ever used.. with that being said there is a reason for it though IMO... I never made any excuses for anyone.. and yes i already know the client had the photos he clearly outlined that in the opening thread the issue was directed towards acquiring the albums which is what is time consuming.. Ask any wedding photographer there are a couple on this forum and i am sure they can elaborate as to acquiring the actual albums is a time consuming job. From my understanding R-Audi was able to get a hold of mike and things are getting sorted out, like i suggested try contacting him once more with the thread present.. i made no promises just a simple suggestion... :dunno:

[Weapon_R]

Originally posted by R-Audi
We are moving forward to find a solution and Quazimoto is being a great help to both of us in doing so.

Contrary to the opinion people might have of Mike based on my posts, he is a good guy and does want to resolve this issue, its just too bad that it came to the point where I had to make negative posts to get his attention. I will be sure to update with our progress.
Im not sure if he is going to post here to try and save face or not, thats completely up to him.

Seriously, why bother? Now that you have the digital files, you can go anywhere and have them done.

[Cos]

^^ I was wondering that too. Doesn't he have EVERY photo on the DVD now? He could have printed them somewhere long ago.

[Melinda]

Originally posted by Redlyne_jr


I think you entirely misinterpreted my comment, nor at any time was i making excuses or promises for mike.. I have no affiliation with mike just speaking from my experiences with him.. I totally understand the frustration that R-Audi is going through i said myself mike does take longer than any other photographer i have ever used.. with that being said there is a reason for it though IMO... I never made any excuses for anyone.. and yes i already know the client had the photos he clearly outlined that in the opening thread the issue was directed towards acquiring the albums which is what is time consuming.. Ask any wedding photographer there are a couple on this forum and i am sure they can elaborate as to acquiring the actual albums is a time consuming job. From my understanding R-Audi was able to get a hold of mike and things are getting sorted out, like i suggested try contacting him once more with the thread present.. i made no promises just a simple suggestion... :dunno:
I AM a wedding photographer, as well as a portrait photographer that orders albums for clients on a fairly regular basis and has to churn out entire weddings and shoots within 2-3 weeks. It's not all that difficult to edit a shoot in one or two evenings or a wedding in a week's worth of evenings. Trust me, I know how long it takes to get things done, get things ordered and get things delivered to a client. 8 months is a VERY VERY long time.

[quazimoto]

Only if contractual obligations were waived by both parties. I'm quite certain only a portion of the $1800 was for printed products and some of it was for the photography services. I don't think many photographers would realistically provide upwards of 50 or more hours of their time for $1,000. It's really not as simple as taking the photos anywhere and having the photos/albums created. Typically the client doesn't own the photos until the full balance is made.

I already went through this BS with another photographer that believed he could file a civil claim against me for helping my friend out. He got all bent out of shape when I did thank you cards, prints and albums for a good friend after he refused to do anything for her simply because she told him she was disappointed with the photos she was given and that she didn't really like any of them. Believe it or not he tried to sue me for $2,200 that he was eventually forced to give back to her.

Right now it's just best to take care of things properly and get have all parties involve made happy, especially the bride as it'll make R_Audi's life easier!

[adidas]

Back in Dec '09/Jan '10 my sister was looking for a photographer. Ive seen some of Mikes previous work and we have a few mutual friends so i figured he'd be a good man for the job.

After contacting him personally on his cellphone and not receiving a call back, it was kinda disappointing. I then sent an email, which my sister did as well. She also placed a call to him a few days after not receiving an email back and yet there was never communication established. As a wedding present to my sister i was willing to pay upfront in cash the full amount if my sister would have chosen Mike to do her wedding photography, this would of been 8 months ahead of her wedding date.

[mboldt]

Alright..

I have been talking to Mark regarding everything and we are working on figuring the whole situation and coming to a solution right away. I appreciate his patience and his post not being a hate post against me, but more of a big attention grabber and wake up for me. I will admit I am 100% at fault, there are a few reasons both personal and also pure negligence. I don't want to post up a big list of excuses and reasoning, it wouldn't be beneficial for the situation. What I want to do is to move on and make sure the couple are as satisfied as possible, regardless this all should have been avoided.

There are too many posts in here to reply to, but I'll reply to some:


Originally posted by Melinda

I AM a wedding photographer, as well as a portrait photographer that orders albums for clients on a fairly regular basis and has to churn out entire weddings and shoots within 2-3 weeks. It's not all that difficult to edit a shoot in one or two evenings or a wedding in a week's worth of evenings. Trust me, I know how long it takes to get things done, get things ordered and get things delivered to a client. 8 months is a VERY VERY long time.
On average, how many photos are you providing to your couples processed?

It has not taken 8 months to order this specific album, it has been the past few months of trial and error and going through numerous publishers trying to price out samples / actual books and get setup.. I have discussed this with Quazi and he had the same problems as me. Sure, I could have turned the albums around in a week and gone through Blurb or any other quick site, but I want to be able to produce quality books. I HAVE received samples and sent them back, I have been looking and looking. Honestly until now I haven't felt comfortable asking Kevin or anyone else who their publisher is, as they are basically my competition within the wedding market.. I have resolved this with a big thanks to Quazi.


Originally posted by blitz
The weird thing is, who wouldn't do a few hours of work for $1800?
It's more than a few hours to setup a publisher and have all of it rolling, as quazi has stated, or I would have simply got it done, trust me. Right now I have lost money with this wedding due to equipment being stolen at the reception venue and taking the day off from my regular full time job at the time.


Originally posted by scat330


Good luck, but honestly, 8 months, no communication, and hiding on a public forum = why would you want to continue?
It has not been 8 months of no communication, I do admit that I have been absolutely horrible in not keeping Mark up to date and I intend to do everything I can do make up for that.


Originally posted by msommers
I don't know Mike but I do know how he operates and communication is one of his attributes that needs a lot of work. From a personal standpoint, to others on beyond, lack of communication has not been confined to this issue. I really enjoy some of the photos he has put out, but would never consider him for any type of shoot in the future.
After browsing back through my PM's I honestly don't remember any sort of lack of communication with you personally. The most recent PM you have sent me was asking for tips/how to shoot some car stuff, and honestly I haven't had the time to go back and reply to a message like that (I do try to eventually get to all messages like that. I have at least 1-3 messages a day asking the similar questions. Other than that the previous PM's between us were regarding you asking for a discount on gear at Saneal and from what I can recall you ended up buying used or from somewhere else before I could PM you back in time (I saw a post of yours on the board stating you had a new camera somewhere). I do plan on replying to your last PM..

adidas what is your actual name? (pm me if you don't want to post it) but I honestly do not recall this situation whatsoever.

[Melinda]

Originally posted by mboldt
On average, how many photos are you providing to your couples processed?
Depends on the wedding, but usually 400-500 edited images. Portrait shoots are usually 30-40


Originally posted by mboldt
It has not taken 8 months to order this specific album, it has been the past few months of trial and error and going through numerous publishers trying to price out samples / actual books and get setup.. I have discussed this with Quazi and he had the same problems as me. Sure, I could have turned the albums around in a week and gone through Blurb or any other quick site, but I want to be able to produce quality books. I HAVE received samples and sent them back, I have been looking and looking. Honestly until now I haven't felt comfortable asking Kevin or anyone else who their publisher is, as they are basically my competition within the wedding market.. I have resolved this with a big thanks to Quazi.
I'm not going to sugar coat it. You should never have sold a product that you didn't know you could order and be happy with. Unless you told him specifically "okay albums, sure. I've never done them before, but I'm willing to cut you guys a great deal if you'll be my guinea pigs and hang in there with me while I work through the growing pains." That's what I do with EVERY SINGLE new product I offer. And 8 months of trial and error with album companies? Who have you been trying? There are tons of great ones out there, asuka, finao (and those are amongst the most popular if you had popped onto a pro photo forum or anything of the sort, you'd see people raving about both of them), whcc, hell even mpixpro can do a nice one. Either you haven't been doing proper research or your standards are insane. Finao is second to none IMO, they are absolutely incredible albums. How you're going to offer 3 of them plus design time for $1800 or less and still turn ANY profit though, that's a mystery to me.

[scat330]

Well... if it were me I would not be continuing, I hope you get what you want out of all this Mark!

[89coupe]

Originally posted by Melinda

Depends on the wedding, but usually 400-500 edited images.


400-500??? LOL, Holy crap. Who the hell would want that many photos and who on earth would want to edit that many photos for one job. Thats insane!

[Go4Long]

ah...the expert on wedding photography has spoken...

forget offering an online gallery and allowing the clients to choose which shots of the wedding they want...you should only edit exactly as many images as they ordered, you know better what they want anyway right melinda?

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by Go4Long
ah...the expert on wedding photography has spoken...

forget offering an online gallery and allowing the clients to choose which shots of the wedding they want...you should only edit exactly as many images as they ordered, you know better what they want anyway right melinda?

I think 89c was just saying that he was surprised at the sheer number of images that many people want/expect from weddings and what a pain that would be to edit. His post didn't seem to be a slam, so let's try not to jump to conclusions. I expressed similar surprise the first time I heard how many photos are involved in weddings and larger events, but as you streamline your workflow you become more efficient and the numbers start to seem less daunting.

[Kloubek]

Mike: I'll be the first to say it. Good on you for taking responsibility for your actions. I'm sure you'll take this experience and use it to your advantage by better honing the customer service aspect of your business.

[89coupe]

Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat


I think 89c was just saying that he was surprised at the sheer number of images that many people want/expect from weddings and what a pain that would be to edit. His post didn't seem to be a slam, so let's try not to jump to conclusions. I expressed similar surprise the first time I heard how many photos are involved in weddings and larger events, but as you streamline your workflow you become more efficient and the numbers start to seem less daunting.

Bang on!

[R-Audi]

Okay, here is a little update.... (Edited. I made some mistakes)

Quazimoto (Kevin) has graciously offered to take care of all of the Album and print media at his cost for Mike, and charge only for his time.

However, Mike is still wanting to be involved and keep whatever funds are left of the $1,800 that isnt spent on Albums and prints. (Estimated to be $2-300)

I have asked Mike to sign a waiver to end all obligations and rights of the photos so that Kevin and I can move forward without his involvement, and I can reimburse Kevin for his time spent for the work.



Am I being reasonable for requesting this? Although the $1,800 remaining on our contract isn't solely for the albums and prints, I dont feel that it is fair that Kevin does all the work for nothing, while Mike ends up making money.

[Go4Long]

I'm hearing two very different versions of this current chain of events(not the past), and it sounds like an attempt is being made to throw mike under the bus here.

I'm not saying either party is being unreasonable, I'm saying what's being discussed, and what's being posted MAY be very different.

Perhaps you two should arrange a face to face meeting, where you can discuss the details of any arrangements to be made. Mike has already admitted to being in the wrong here, which is a good first step towards a fair resolution. It's a BIG hit to someone's pride to admit that they've fucked up, so why don't you two work forwards from that and try to make nice and get it together.

Holy crap, I'm the voice of reason? what are the odds of that happening?

[quazimoto]

He still really isn't making money, even with getting anything out of it. It is a much smaller portion than would have originally been expected and as such he's still taking a hit. It's literally allowing him to collect on his photography services. In that aspect I do believe it's fair. Just need to remember he easily could have went out and had a cheap product made that you wouldn't have been as satisfied with just to save money. The cost of the albums as well does include the hours to create the templates for the albums. It does not include any profit on the album itself.

As per the comments above, 500 photos is a lot. I think my Norm is 300-400ish depending on all the events covered during a day. I have seen photographers that provide clients with as many as 1200 and then again the photo quality is poor, the editing is next to nothing and the client would be happier with a photographer that gives them good quality photographs. It's always quality over quantity to a certain extent. I say that because there are some photographers that only give 100 on a disc. It's always going to vary from photographer to photographer but so long as the client aka bride is happy then that is all that matters.

[lint]

I'd say you let Mike work out a deal with Kevin, but you settle your bill with Mike, less discount for the troubles perhaps, when you get your finished product.

[R-Audi]

Originally posted by Go4Long
I'm hearing two very different versions of this current chain of events(not the past), and it sounds like an attempt is being made to throw mike under the bus here.

I'm not saying either party is being unreasonable, I'm saying what's being discussed, and what's being posted MAY be very different.

Perhaps you two should arrange a face to face meeting, where you can discuss the details of any arrangements to be made. Mike has already admitted to being in the wrong here, which is a good first step towards a fair resolution. It's a BIG hit to someone's pride to admit that they've fucked up, so why don't you two work forwards from that and try to make nice and get it together.

Holy crap, I'm the voice of reason? what are the odds of that happening?


Im not trying to throw anyone under the bus, I just dont think its reasonable that Kevin covers his ass, and Mike sees any benefit from it.
Before my original post, I had $1,800 in hand, no albums and no involvement from Mike whatsoever. My feeling is that Mike had written me and this money off, and I had given up on chasing. I was starting to look at sourcing the albums and prints myself.

Just to be clear, Kevin is fine with Mike being involved, it is me that is pushing the other way. I originally asked Mike for a discount for my troubles, and it really sounds like there isnt much room at all with 2-300 profit, so I thought it was fair to ask Mike to forfeit that amount.

If this isnt fair, let me know.. Thats why Im asking.

[scat330]

From what I read, Mike doesn't deserve any more money.

[89coupe]

Geez, seems like such a waste of money. Every married couple I've met has like 3 to 5 nice photos from their wedding on display in their home and a wedding album stashed away somewhere that they pull out once a year that might have 50 photos total in it. LOL, I just don't get some couples.

[Kloubek]

Well, here is the contract as I see it:

$1000 = shoot.
$1800 = editing/finishing/printing/albums, etc.

The shoot has been done. Mike has received his $1000. Unfortunately, he has (at least reasonably) breeched the contract for the 2nd step, worth $1800.

R-Audi should not be responsible to pay Mike any further money, as Mike did not complete the agreed task.

As such, anything R-Audi chooses to do at this point starts off with a clean slate, and any previous work and/or agreement should not factor into it.

If person "X" wishes to perform the 2nd step, and then give some of the money to Mike, it is his choice. It should have no bearing whatsoever on the new agreement between R-Audi and person X.

[D'z Nutz]

Originally posted by R-Audi
However, Mike is still wanting to be involved and keep whatever funds are left of the $1,800 that isnt spent on Albums and prints. (Estimated to be $2-300)

Yeeeaaaaah.... no.

[Cos]

100% agree.


Originally posted by Kloubek
Well, here is the contract as I see it:

$1000 = shoot.
$1800 = editing/finishing/printing/albums, etc.

The shoot has been done. Mike has received his $1000. Unfortunately, he has (at least reasonably) breeched the contract for the 2nd step, worth $1800.

R-Audi should not be responsible to pay Mike any further money, as Mike did not complete the agreed task.

As such, anything R-Audi chooses to do at this point starts off with a clean slate, and any previous work and/or agreement should not factor into it.

If person "X" wishes to perform the 2nd step, and then give some of the money to Mike, it is his choice. It should have no bearing whatsoever on the new agreement between R-Audi and person X.

[quazimoto]

Ok let's clear this a little. Just so you are all clear on this.


1. The photographer owns all photos until full payment is received. Essentially the copyright isn't transferred.

2. Mistakes from my understanding were made on both the bride/groom and photographers side. There are a bunch of things that have been brought up during conversation that create red flags for me.

3. Of the $1,800 remaining a portion of that was for Mike's time shooting the wedding, editing the photos, equipment he had rented, etc.

4. If Mike really wanted to have he could have printed off lesser expensive albums through a company like adorama or mpix that quite simply aren't acceptable as wedding albums just to get the remainder of the balance.


Just let things proceed and get taken care of and then everything can be cleared in the end. It's not who is making what or anything like that. Have any of you ever seen a bride in tears from something like this? I have on a few occasions and that's exactly why I'm willing to help. It's more common than you would think as there are a lot of fly by night photographers in our city that aren't photographers that claim to be.

Mike has owned up to his mistakes and hopefully you all realize that. Instead of trying to chew people out please just let the situation get finalized and then at the end of it the air can be cleared.

I'm not going to state information on a public forum that both sides have told me until it's all taken care of. It's a reasonably complicated situation and I'm now getting a really good grasp of what has taken place from day one.

[BrknFngrs]

^^ So your opinion is that even though this dragged on for months and Mike had to be "forced" to deal with it he should still get paid in a manner consistent with the original agreement?

That's the most ridiculous thing I have heard in a long time. I hope that all ties are severed and not another penny changes hands related to this agreement.

Just so we're clear and I mean no offense by this, but some of your opininons on this topic have really put me off about using yourself for future work and I'm sure other members would agree.

[Jlude]

Originally posted by BrknFngrs
^^ So your opinion is that even though this dragged on for months and Mike had to be "forced" to deal with it he should still get paid in a manner consistent with the original agreement?

That's the most ridiculous thing I have heard in a long time. I hope that all ties are severed and not another penny changes hands related to this agreement.

Just so we're clear and I mean no offense by this, but some of your opininons on this topic have really put me off about using yourself for future work and I'm sure other members would agree.
+1

[Melinda]

Originally posted by BrknFngrs
Just so we're clear and I mean no offense by this, but some of your opininons on this topic have really put me off about using yourself for future work and I'm sure other members would agree.
Haha I did warn you about that, Kevin!

[Melinda]

Originally posted by 89coupe


400-500??? LOL, Holy crap. Who the hell would want that many photos and who on earth would want to edit that many photos for one job. Thats insane!
I shoot with another photographer. So between the two of us for a 12ish hour day, it's not hard to get 400+ decent images. There are SO MANY details of a day that can easily burn 50-100 images all on their own.

Not every wedding gets that though. I'm delivering a wedding tonight that we didn't shoot the reception and they wanted outdoor pictures in the middle of an April blizzard, so their final number is around the 280 mark and it still does a great job of showing the day.

[EvolizePhoto]

Wait a minute.

Is mike saying he can't have the photograph rights now?

[EvolizePhoto]

Originally posted by Melinda

I shoot with another photographer. So between the two of us for a 12ish hour day, it's not hard to get 400+ decent images. There are SO MANY details of a day that can easily burn 50-100 images all on their own.

Not every wedding gets that though. I'm delivering a wedding tonight that we didn't shoot the reception and they wanted outdoor pictures in the middle of an April blizzard, so their final number is around the 280 mark and it still does a great job of showing the day. I personally see no issue with having 500+ photos from a wedding, that are GOOD.

Isn't that like going by the age old saying, it's better to have and not need, than to need and not have?

[rc2002]

Originally posted by BrknFngrs
^^ So your opinion is that even though this dragged on for months and Mike had to be "forced" to deal with it he should still get paid in a manner consistent with the original agreement?

That's the most ridiculous thing I have heard in a long time. I hope that all ties are severed and not another penny changes hands related to this agreement.

Just so we're clear and I mean no offense by this, but some of your opininons on this topic have really put me off about using yourself for future work and I'm sure other members would agree.

+2.

Something just doesn't add up. For some reason I don't understand, quazimoto is offering trying to solve a problem that clearly isn't his.

What's worse is the way quazimoto keeps trying to justify Mike's actions and share the blame between both parties. A person could easily make the case that quazimoto would use the exact same excuses for himself if you hired him to do your wedding photography.

The fact that r-audi brought this issue up to be resolved instead of pocketing the $1800 speaks to his character. Most people would've just pocketed the $1800 and paid a couple hundred bucks for prints.

[quazimoto]

Yep I could see that Melinda with two people. Never even thought of that. It's around the right number. I just shake my head at those that give out 1200, it's remarkable. Just curious does one of you do all the editing or do you split responsibility on it? I know my Fiancee is interesting in learning more about it as she's come to many weddings with me and she has a lot of fun.

Doesn't honestly bother me what most say. I don't find myself actively marketing on beyond. It's just nice to be apart of a community with like minded people that enjoy the same thing. Plus every now and then you can get ideas and inspirations from things that others on here do. It's nice in that respect.

The opinions expressed by many are also going on them not knowing the facts of the entire situation. I have spent time talking with both sides and it's a mess from start to finish. If R_Audi is satisfied with what I have to show him in terms of product quality we can move forward with a more permanent solution.

[R-Audi]

Originally posted by BrknFngrs


Just so we're clear and I mean no offense by this, but some of your opininons on this topic have really put me off about using yourself for future work and I'm sure other members would agree.

I dont think this is right.. Kevin has been incredibly helpful through all of this. From what I know he has absolutely no vested interest in the situation, he is acting as a mediator and helping myself and Mike out. IMO he is doing his best to make me happy while not stepping on any toes in the meantime.

Mike hasnt said a word about not giving the rights to the pictures, its just that Kevin needs it in writing before he will even look at doing an album.. Just covering himself legally.

If both of them wanted to wipe their hands clean of the entire situation I would be ok with that as well. I just don't feel that Mike deserves any of the money outstanding..

[shutterbug_art8]

Originally posted by 89coupe
Every married couple I've met has like 3 to 5 nice photos from their wedding on display in their home and a wedding album stashed away somewhere that they pull out once a year that might have 50 photos total in it.

^^^ QFT

[Kloubek]

Originally posted by quazimoto
1. The photographer owns all photos until full payment is received. Essentially the copyright isn't transferred.

Payment WAS received for the first portion. The second portion, Mike breeched the contract, and as such, R-Audi is not responsible to keep his end either.

2. Mistakes from my understanding were made on both the bride/groom and photographers side. There are a bunch of things that have been brought up during conversation that create red flags for me.

Mistakes? I can't imagine any mistakes which might have been made on the customer's side which would lead to the breech of contract...

3. Of the $1,800 remaining a portion of that was for Mike's time shooting the wedding, editing the photos, equipment he had rented, etc.

See #1.

4. If Mike really wanted to have he could have printed off lesser expensive albums through a company like adorama or mpix that quite simply aren't acceptable as wedding albums just to get the remainder of the balance.

Yeah, he could have. And then he could have been taken to court for shoddy work, as well as had a moral issue on his hands. Not to mention negative publicity which would have been much more scathing than we've witnessed.


Originally posted by richardchan2002
For some reason I don't understand, quazimoto is offering trying to solve a problem that clearly isn't his.

While I understand it isn't his problem, I don't think he should be shunned for trying to act as a mediator. Maybe he's just trying to help out?

[quazimoto]

Mleh what's the point of stashing an album away. It's nice to have something like this on display in your home especially if you are paying for it. Not every couple does the books. Some still prefer to make their own wedding scrapbook using supplies you can find at michael's.

He is right though on the prints. Most couples print one large photo and then maybe some for parents, grandparents, etc. I once did have a client though that surprised me. I walked into their home to see this huge print, it had to be larger than 24"x36" on their wall. It had me taken back since I rarely ever see the final outcome.

Also for photo rights it was my attorney that recommended it that way. I wouldn't go into any situation like this prior to consulting him anyways as I've done it before and the last time as I said I got served with a civil suit with another photographer saying I screwd him out of $2,200. This particular situation is more difficult for a few reasons that I won't get into until everything is taken care of.

[Melinda]

Originally posted by quazimoto
Yep I could see that Melinda with two people. Never even thought of that. It's around the right number. I just shake my head at those that give out 1200, it's remarkable. Just curious does one of you do all the editing or do you split responsibility on it? I know my Fiancee is interesting in learning more about it as she's come to many weddings with me and she has a lot of fun.

Doesn't honestly bother me what most say. I don't find myself actively marketing on beyond. It's just nice to be apart of a community with like minded people that enjoy the same thing. Plus every now and then you can get ideas and inspirations from things that others on here do. It's nice in that respect.

The opinions expressed by many are also going on them not knowing the facts of the entire situation. I have spent time talking with both sides and it's a mess from start to finish. If R_Audi is satisfied with what I have to show him in terms of product quality we can move forward with a more permanent solution.
Haha a word for the wise, about half of my business comes from beyond or friends of beyonders. I wouldn't brush people on here off like that!

And no, I don't edit weddings anymore. Rolland does both of our editing. I almost quit weddings all together last year because of the sheer amount of work needed after all is said and done plus trying to get 2-3 weekly shoots done and delivered. Rolland has a lot more patience for editing large quantities of photos, so I go through all the pictures from the day and between the two of our folders select a good number that tells the story of the day. Then he edits them. It works amazingly well for us. Then in the meantime, I can dedicate my time and attention to photographing, editing and delivering my weekly shoots, plus spend the time updating my blog, website, facebook group, emailing clients, etc.

[EvolizePhoto]

Originally posted by Melinda

Haha a word for the wise, about half of my business comes from beyond or friends of beyonders. I wouldn't brush people on here off like that!
:werd: 75% of the paid work I receive is from these forums, and it's usually from those people who don't post, but only read.

[cet]

Originally posted by Melinda

I shoot with another photographer. So between the two of us for a 12ish hour day, it's not hard to get 400+ decent images. There are SO MANY details of a day that can easily burn 50-100 images all on their own.

Not every wedding gets that though. I'm delivering a wedding tonight that we didn't shoot the reception and they wanted outdoor pictures in the middle of an April blizzard, so their final number is around the 280 mark and it still does a great job of showing the day.

I got married last year and when we were at the reception I asked our photographer, on average, how many shots he took for a full day. He told me between 2 and 3000. After he took out the ones that wern't any good he gave us a disk with 1100 shots on it.

Now, granted, there are a lot of instances, for the posed photos, where there are 3 or 4 of the same photo where there only difference was changes in someone's expression other such slight changes.

[89coupe]

Originally posted by cet


I got married last year and when we were at the reception I asked our photographer, on average, how many shots he took for a full day. He told me between 2 and 3000. After he took out the ones that wern't any good he gave us a disk with 1100 shots on it.

Now, granted, there are a lot of instances, for the posed photos, where there are 3 or 4 of the same photo where there only difference was changes in someone's expression other such slight changes.

...and how many do you have on display in your home?

[R-Audi]

^Can this discussion go elsewhere?

[quazimoto]

I was told a long time ago that a good photographer waits and catches the right moments to take a photo and doesn't just go crazy hitting the shutter.

My question is really how do you fit 1100 photos on one single disc. If I give full quality @ 100% resolution the photos are massive. I wish I could use dual layer DVDs but I find every now and then a client has an older computer that just can't work with them.

Also I wasn't writing beyond off. Just saying that I'm sure both R_Audi (Mark) and Mike could agree that not everything has totally come out in this and nobody but them really knows 100% what happened and honestly it shouldn't matter. Mistakes were made, he owned up to it which is the important part. For the record I'm not taking sides with anybody and I'm sure both of them would tell you that as well.

[Go4Long]

Originally posted by Kloubek


Payment WAS received for the first portion. The second portion, Mike breeched the contract, and as such, R-Audi is not responsible to keep his end either.


I'd love to see you attempt that argument in court...

Image rights are owned solely by the photographer until such a time as he/she releases them, a breech of other portions of a contract does not allow for a breech in return. Two totally different legal issues are in play there...

[blitz]

Wouldn't providing a DVD with unwatermarked, high res images constitute releasing them?

[Kloubek]

Originally posted by Go4Long


I'd love to see you attempt that argument in court...

Image rights are owned solely by the photographer until such a time as he/she releases them, a breech of other portions of a contract does not allow for a breech in return. Two totally different legal issues are in play there...

I am no lawyer (obviously), but I'm trying to think of how this would all play out in Judge Judy's courtroom.. which is pretty much the only law I know. But I do apply logic.

Person A hires person B for a service. Let's say person b is a construction guy who does basements. The deal is that person B will finish the entire basement.

Person B decides he is going to put up the framing and drywall. But he doesn't do any of the bathroom plumbing, tiling, nothing. No painting, no electrical. Perhaps 2/3 of the job is not complete. Then person b all but disappears for 8 months.

If you ask Judy Judy who owns the materials that were so far installed, and she would say the home owner. That property becomes theirs. She would say too bad... he acted in bad faith by not returning repeated attempted contacts (which I'm assuming is indeed true). She would say that the contractor breeched the agreement in not completing the project in a reasonable timeframe.

Now, I realize there is an added element in this case due to copywrite laws. But the fact is, property is property... intellectual, electronic, or tangible.

This is my thinking based on just the aspect of "loss" alone. What about "damages" of waiting 3/4 of a year for photos of the biggest event in your life?

I think Audi would fare quite well if it ever went to court.... but again, I'm not lawyer.

Edit: I'm sure court is not required, btw... I'm just thinking hypothetically...

[quazimoto]

No. Written consent is required. I have been asked to fill out forms that my clients have provided me on a number of occasions from different retail photo labs for a variety of different printed products.

In my case I have this written on every single disc I provide my clients just so there isn't any confusing it. Many cameras now a days have the handy feature of having the copyright info written directly onto the RAW files which in some respects is very handy.

That was the one big advantage with film and the way things used to work. The issue of copyright was rarely ever mentioned since normally the bride would receive proofs and simply order prints. Man that sounds like High School all over again. IT makes me feel so old.

[Go4Long]

Originally posted by Kloubek

I think Audi would fare quite well if it ever went to court.... but again, I'm not lawyer.


you're confusing two very different sets of laws...contract law, and copyright law.

Intellectual property laws apply to photos, as soon as you push the shutter it becomes your intellectual property, and cannot become anyone else's property without your specific permission to them.

Your assumption that mike breeched contract is not unwarranted, but then you step off the page and assume that this breech entitles R-Audi to go ahead and violate copyright law, which is where you've wandered far beyond the limits of contract law. Copyright is protected regardless, and doesn't ever enter in to the contract law issue. It would actually be two different court cases. One for the breech of contract(and the licensing of the images would not be something that could be awarded) and another for the unlicensed use of copyright material, which would be a much easier case to prove in a court of law btw.

[Kloubek]

See... they just don't teach you that on Judge Judy... :)

[R-Audi]

I'm suprised Mike Mom didnt come here and post as well :facepalm: