Chief Statistician, Munir Sheikh resigns over Conservatives decision to scrap census

[Nusc]

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/StatsCan+boss+quits+over+census+mess/3305387/story.html

Where ideology clashes with evidence based decision making.

[01RedDX]

.

[Nusc]

Unreliable data for policy making.

[CUG]

Ignatieff's opinion doesn't mean shit anymore, I don't know why people quote him. He set up the PR excuses for a failing Iraq war while in the US and aided in producing less threatening "policy" that aided the invasion. Ignatieff is a fucking hack idiot.

Liberals, holy shit.

The Sheikh guy sounds smart as hell though, and very professional about leaving.

[Nusc]

I'm not quoting Ignatieff. CUG you are statistically illiterate.

Iraq has nothing to do with the OP.

[CUG]

6

[DayGlow]

Last time checked the Tories haven't scrapped the census, only made it voluntary. Or are you cool with the idea that the government can demand your person private information with the threat of jailing you?

[Freeskier]

^^

I'd rather my government has reliable info with which to decide on policy. And ps: voluntary = scrapped, a fraction of the normal number are gonna volunteer to do it, reducing the sample size, reducing statistical power and furthermore it biases the study because only certain kinds of individuals (politically aware and active) will participate.

[DayGlow]

No scrapped would mean cancelled. Voluntary means having the option if you choose. I'd say there is a difference.

Should the government force people to vote under the threat of jail? Right now elections are biased because only the politically aware vote.

[Freeskier]

I meant as good as scrapped for all the validity it'll now hold.

[GTS4tw]

Originally posted by DayGlow
No scrapped would mean cancelled. Voluntary means having the option if you choose. I'd say there is a difference.

Should the government force people to vote under the threat of jail? Right now elections are biased because only the politically aware vote.

Damn, I agree 100% with Dayglow, that doesn't happen often. This is a positive step, one freedom restored. Now just a couple million other freedoms and we might be "free".

[Gainsbarre]

Making a census voluntary instead of mandatory cripples the integrity of the data collected, as it is virtually impossible to correct for the non-random response that is associated with voluntary surveys. Anybody who has conducted any serious research using solid demographic data knows this.

I suspect that the conservatives are trying to shut out those pesky special interest groups by doing this -- eliminating highly reliable data sources such as this one will severely limit the effectiveness of research to guide policy decisions and decision making. It's pretty authoritian for the alleged minister of industry to scrap this without any industry consultation whatsoever -- well he keeps mentioning these vague people who feel that their privacy has been invaded but I don't think he's revealed exactly who they are. Any idiot can fabricate imaginary supporters for their draconian causes.


Originally posted by DayGlow
Last time checked the Tories haven't scrapped the census, only made it voluntary. Or are you cool with the idea that the government can demand your person private information with the threat of jailing you?

They already do that when you file your income tax, among MANY other things. I'll maybe buy that "invasion of privacy" bullshit excuse when we no longer have to file income taxes?

[01RedDX]

.

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by DayGlow
Last time checked the Tories haven't scrapped the census, only made it voluntary. Or are you cool with the idea that the government can demand your person private information with the threat of jailing you?


^^^ This.


Originally posted by GTS4tw


Damn, I agree 100% with Dayglow, that doesn't happen often. This is a positive step, one freedom restored. Now just a couple million other freedoms and we might be "free".

^^^ This.


It's not cool. None of the governments business. You have a right to privacy.

Something tells me that the country is going to get along just fine without a mandatory census.

que typical beyonder:

Whats the big deal? To make my life easier you have to give up your rights. tin foil hat blah blah blah.



Originally posted by Gainsbarre


They already do that when you file your income tax, among MANY other things. I'll maybe buy that "invasion of privacy" bullshit excuse when we no longer have to file income taxes?

So you agree there is already sufficient data collected. There is no need to waste more money on a census and further invade peoples privacy.


Comments on tha article from the link:
"Welcome to Canadanimal farm"

Man people are seriously misguided! Allowing people the right to privacy is communism now??? LOL

[mx73someday]

Voluntary surveys seem to be effective for private companies that do market research. Why would it be different if the voluntary survey is conducted by government? Is there still a threat of force if you give false information on a government survey?



I suspect that the conservatives are trying to shut out those pesky special interest groups by doing this --
eliminating highly reliable data sources such as this one will severely limit the effectiveness of research to guide policy decisions and decision making.

You assume that the people calling themselves government are adept at policy and decision making, they aren't. What's wrong with hurting special interest groups?


It's pretty authoritian for the alleged minister of industry to scrap this without any industry consultation whatsoever -- well he keeps mentioning these vague people who feel that their privacy has been invaded but I don't think he's revealed exactly who they are. Any idiot can fabricate imaginary supporters for their draconian causes.

How is replacing a coerced service with a voluntary one authoritarian? Democracy is supposed to be about representing and serving individuals, not industries. Every time they interfere with industry or the market, it only hurts the consumer.

Would you like them to print a list of individual constituents that asked for the service to become voluntary? Would that be less vague?

And forcing people to do things under threat of violence is not draconian? Do you work for government?

[Freeskier]

Originally posted by mx73someday

How is replacing a coerced service with a voluntary one authoritarian?

Not the point, one minister making such an important decision is the point he was making. I'm not getting involved in that particular side of it though lol.

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by Freeskier


Not the point, one minister making such an important decision is the point he was making. I'm not taking sides in that one though :thumbsup:

Hypothertically: if it went to a national vote and 51% of people believed that you had no right to privacy and that the other 49% of people should go to jail if they didn't comply - Would that make it OK?

Or does it only have to be 10% of people that don't want to take part? Or maybe 5%?

[Freeskier]

I'm not totally sure of what you mean, but then again...I've had a few (why am I on beyond?!). But, in a true democracy in which majority ruled, then yes... 51% do have the ruling vote. I'm not sure where you'd get 51% of people voting to send the other 49% to jail, but i guess it could happen theoretically. Again, I'm not sure if I'm missing the point though.

[Gainsbarre]

I tried explaining the data integrity problem of voluntary surveys in my own words. Maybe the words of professional statisticians is more credible? From the second paragraph on page 8:

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11f0019m/11f0019m2006274-eng.pdf



A second appealing feature of the Census is its coverage. Response to the Census is mandatory by
law, and as such, coverage of the population is almost complete, with the exception of very specific
groups (most notably, on-reserve Aboriginals, individuals in collective dwellings, and the
homeless). Response to the SCF/SLID is voluntary, and roughly 20% of selected households choose
not to do so. This creates the potential for response bias that may be related to income. The
SCF/SLID datasets include weights calculated so that key sample characteristics mimic those of the
population as a whole, but income is not one of the characteristics. Thus, to the extent that response
bias is related to income, even after controlling for observables that are directly addressed by the
weights, the weighted income distribution obtained from the SCF/SLID may still not correspond to
that for the whole population.3 The population coverage on T1FF is quite good, but only after 1993
when the combination of incentives from child tax credits and goods and services tax (GST) rebates
improved the filing incentives for very low income individuals.


I agree in that this particular government isn't adept at policy making or listening to its constituents either. Holding the G20 in downtown Toronto, pissing away our CANDU technology, scrapping the long form census, continually electing unqualified senators (including an old fart who isn't even fucking literate) -- who voted for / asked for these measures? Ever heard of "Peace, order, and good governement"?

Theres a huge long list of individuals / groups who have spoken out against this change. Who are these people who are complaining about their privacy being violated? I assume if they are concerned about this, they're also concerned about things such as filing income tax or applying for car insurance.

(from http://www.cbc.ca/politics/story/2010/07/16/clement-house-census.html)



Ever since the move was announced in late June, statisticians, researchers, academics, municipalities, religious groups and others have decried the move, arguing it will result in skewed and unreliable data.

In an interview with CBC Radio's The House, Clement says that despite the criticism, coming during the summer when many people are not paying attention to politics, he is not going to take another look at the issue.

"No, we're not," he said. "We've heard from Canadians from all walks of life who are quite relieved that we're taking this position as well."

Clement and other Conservative ministers have been arguing that many Canadians complained to them about the intrusiveness of the questions on the long-form census and the threat of fines or jail time if they don't complete it.

Opposition MPs say they have not heard such complaints and the privacy commissioner has said complaints about the census have actually declined over the years.


Kind of like believing the government that we "need to get tough on crime" when crime rates have been falling for decades. Government makes a statement that is contrary to reality, yet some people seem to immediately believe it without question.

[masoncgy]

^ I have a feeling that if these changes were proposed by a Liberal government, you would be in full support of it...

...and since when do we 'elect senators' in this country? :confused:

[Gainsbarre]

Originally posted by masoncgy
^ I have a feeling that if these changes were proposed by a Liberal government, you would be in full support of it...

...and since when do we 'elect senators' in this country? :confused:

Actually, no. I've been arguing against the change because of data integrity issues which will have very adverse effects on policy analysis, and because the government appears to be (yet again) trying to fob off any criticism by citing questionable sources when the general public (along with independent commissions) are voicing that the opposite is true.

Sorry, I meant to say "appointed". It gets a bit confusing when the prime minister keeps promising "senate reform" and "elected senators" and then continually appoints his unqualified cronies to the senate (e.g. the latest one from a few weeks ago when a woman who ran and LOST for the Conservatives in the last election gets appointed to the senate by the PM!).

[masoncgy]

How in the world is the PM supposed to bring about senate reform when the Liberal senators refuse to cooperate with such measures?

The only other way to bring about change is from within, hence the stacking of the senate with 'reformists'. It's part of the deal for those being appointed, they have to support the PM's reform plans or they are not appointed.

If the PM backtracks on this plan and does not push through with senate reform as promised, he will go down in flames.

It would have been easier for the Liberals to just go along with the plans... but what else can we expect from the pigs at the trough?

[mx73someday]

I don't believe that force or violence is justified in order to improve census stats. So, by making it voluntary they aren't losing anything that was legitimate, despite the alleged benefits. It's like saying if they abolish slavery, then certain groups are going to lose some free labor. Forced census was never legitimate in the first place.

If census data is valuable then let it become a market commodity. People can get paid voluntarily to provide private details about their lives.

[Antonito]

Oh good, policy will become even more skewed towards the 55 plus crowd. But hey at least we'll be free from the oppression of being forced to do a survey every 5 years, oh the injustice of it all :cry:

[e31]

I never understood how the hell the government could ever get census data from NE Calgary let alone extrapolate any meaningful data from it.

[DRKM]

Does everyone on this board recognize that we live in a socialist state? The data provided is integral to providing effective policy.

[masoncgy]

^ :rofl:

Do you even know what a 'socialist state' is?

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by mx73someday
I don't believe that force or violence is justified in order to improve census stats. So, by making it voluntary they aren't losing anything that was legitimate, despite the alleged benefits. It's like saying if they abolish slavery, then certain groups are going to lose some free labor. Forced census was never legitimate in the first place.

If census data is valuable then let it become a market commodity. People can get paid voluntarily to provide private details about their lives.

You are a moron. People getting paid to voluntarily provide data is exactly the problem. If you want a census you need a bias free census and the people who are willing to fill out a census for money is not representative of the overall population. Everyone in this thread who thinks the data on a voluntary census will be equivalent is a fool and needs to go take a statistics course.

PS: Math doesn't care about political parties. This is a moronic decision no matter which party is behind the move.

[Freeskier]

^ This.

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by mazdavirgin


You are a moron. People getting paid to voluntarily provide data is exactly the problem. If you want a census you need a bias free census and the people who are willing to fill out a census for money is not representative of the overall population. Everyone in this thread who thinks the data on a voluntary census will be equivalent is a fool and needs to go take a statistics course.

PS: Math doesn't care about political parties. This is a moronic decision no matter which party is behind the move.

Can you explain to all of us why this is moronic? What is so important about this data that not having it 100% accurate makes us all morons?

Do you really need to know how many 3 children Phillipino families there are in Winnipeg to run a country properly?

Do you believe it's necessary to threaten jail time every 10 years and have people expose their sexual preference and religion? What possible purpose could this data have?

Can you even post one factoid of how the statistics gathered are going to negatively or positively impact anything?

Are you just arguing that statistics are more meaningful when they are collected with the threat of jail time?




Also the 2006 census was contracted out to... LOCKHEED MARTIN. Seriously, W... T... F....



The quality of data was further hampered by individuals who advocated minimal cooperation or non-cooperation, in protest to the outsourcing contract awarded to Lockheed Martin.[34] Many people believed that Lockheed Martin would have access to their information, and that the US government could then access that information through the USA PATRIOT Act. However, despite assurances to the contrary (i.e., only Statistics Canada employees would and could handle, store, and access the information), some people refused to participate fully in the Census.

[Antonito]

Despite what youtube videos have told you, the NWOs secret intelligencia agencies aren't very good at funneling every detail of everyones lives to Stephen Bilderberg....I mean Harper and his government. Given this lack of information, they are left to look at statistics to figure out patterns with regards to demographics that they can use to set policy.

Growing population of young people? Better look to increase funding to schools. Lots of old people? Geriatric care. Lots of immigrants suddenly pop up in Moosejaw? Should probably set up more immmigration services there.

With a voluntary survey typically the only people that will bother will be elderly people with nothing better to do and special interest groups, and suddenly they are getting disproportional services and attention. Those least likely to fill out the survey will also find reduced government services as there will be no apparent need for them.

Special interest groups already get too much attention simply because they yell louder than most, why give them even more say by stacking the deck further in their favour?

[DayGlow]

Those questions are answered on the short form census that isn't changing. What is changing is the intrusive 40 page long form which is becoming voluntary.

What crucial government policy is set from asking if I have any loose tiles in my bathroom?

[Gainsbarre]

Originally posted by DayGlow
Those questions are answered on the short form census that isn't changing. What is changing is the intrusive 40 page long form which is becoming voluntary.

What crucial government policy is set from asking if I have any loose tiles in my bathroom?

Uhhhh...what was that recent policy introduced by the federal government? "Home Renovation tax credit"? Think that the inclusion of the question "Is this dwelling in need of any repairs?" in the 2006 long form survey might just have had something to do with that?

Statistics Canada has a handy link here explaining the usefulness fo the data they collect!
http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2006/ref/dict/overview-apercu/pop9-eng.cfm

See how many of the long form questions form the 2006 survey (located here http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2006/ref/about-apropos/version-eng.cfm ) you can classify to each category!

Who said something about "wasting more money"? The mandatroy long form census was only sent out to 20% of households, while this voluntary long form census will be sent out to ALL households. How many millions of dollars more do you think it'll cost to sent out 100% of households instead of 20%?

[DayGlow]

I have no issue with the census, they can ask any question the want, the issue is forcing people to complete it with threat of fine or jail.

It may well be useful info, but things like the renovation tax credit is not crucial to the running of the state. Forcing that information from people isn't necessary. Ask for the info, explain why it is important and how it will benifit you to fill it out. That vs demanding private info with threats of jail behind it.

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by Antonito

Growing population of young people? Better look to increase funding to schools. Lots of old people? Geriatric care. Lots of immigrants suddenly pop up in Moosejaw? Should probably set up more immmigration services there.



You make it sound like they don't already have all the birth/death records and income tax information. They already know what the age demographics are.

Immigrant services? Wow! thats the best you can come up with for threatening people to take part in this? Just imagine if there wasn't enough immigrant services in Moose Jaw - The country would go spinning out of control! The horror:rolleyes:

Home Renovation tax credit... ? Is that worth threatening people with jail time? How'd that work out anyways? It was government stimulus into the failing house/real estate market. It had nothing to do with helping Canadians, and it isn't worth threatening people with jail time.

Please give me one convincing need for all of the PERSONAL INTRUSIVE information on the census. Explain to me why if I don't provide that information I should be put in jail. Thanks.

[dezmarez]

They should just use facebook

[Freeskier]

:rofl: :rofl:

[Freeskier]

Originally posted by broken_legs


You make it sound like they don't already have all the birth/death records and income tax information. They already know what the age demographics are.

Immigrant services? Wow! thats the best you can come up with for threatening people to take part in this? Just imagine if there wasn't enough immigrant services in Moose Jaw - The country would go spinning out of control! The horror:rolleyes:

Home Renovation tax credit... ? Is that worth threatening people with jail time? How'd that work out anyways? It was government stimulus into the failing house/real estate market. It had nothing to do with helping Canadians, and it isn't worth threatening people with jail time.

Please give me one convincing need for all of the PERSONAL INTRUSIVE information on the census. Explain to me why if I don't provide that information I should be put in jail. Thanks.

Instead of picking apart the quick general examples given, why not take a step back and look at the big picture he's trying to make. The census information is critical to policy making in the government. It provides them (whichever party with detailed information regarding the populace they are trying to govern. You can't make policy based on how the politically aware population votes every 4 years or at the occasional referendum. As soon as you make a survey like this voluntary, it loses a huge amount of statistical significance and the results instantly become inherently biased.

[Integra10]

Originally posted by DayGlow


It may well be useful info, but things like the renovation tax credit is not crucial to the running of the state. Forcing that information from people isn't necessary. Ask for the info, explain why it is important and how it will benifit you to fill it out. That vs demanding private info with threats of jail behind it.

:clap:

Best way of explaining it so far. Hands down.

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by Freeskier


Instead of picking apart the quick general examples given, why not take a step back and look at the big picture he's trying to make.

Ya ya ya supposedly this information is VITAL to governance. So show me the money...



The census information is critical to policy making in the government.


Right... proof? What is the benefit to me? To you? Can you actually provide any example which would justify sending people to jail if they don't comply?

Also - Can you please explain why my sexual orientation and race is important???



It provides them (whichever party with detailed information regarding the populace they are trying to govern.


Exactly. It's none of the governments business. It's TOO detailed 1. and 2, it's under threat of jail.

Please show me what the benefits are, and how they could possibly outweigh someones right to privacy.



You can't make policy based on how the politically aware population votes every 4 years or at the occasional referendum. As soon as you make a survey like this voluntary, it loses a huge amount of statistical significance and the results instantly become inherently biased.

So basically, like all the people that are PRO JAIL ENFORCED INVASION OF PRIVACY - You completely ignore the fact that this is intrusive and unnecessary.

Your only argument is that the data is more accurate. Well you're probably right. It most likely is more accurate. But can you quantify how innacurate the voluntary data will be? NO.

And finally that's not what this is about anyways. It's about your right to privacy. Please address the real issue, not the statistical merit of a census collection method.

[Freeskier]

Alright, I admit that the jail term seems a little bit ridiculous, and this seems to be the main issue. I support a mandatory random sample census... but i'll agree with you that jail is way too much for choosing to not disclose your personal information

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by broken_legs
So basically, like all the people that are PRO JAIL ENFORCED INVASION OF PRIVACY - You completely ignore the fact that this is intrusive and unnecessary.

And finally that's not what this is about anyways. It's about your right to privacy. Please address the real issue, not the statistical merit of a census collection method.

:rofl: You complain about your "invasion" of privacy? Seriously? You expect privacy from the government? Ever talked to the CRA? That illusion should quickly vanish. Oh they hand out jail time too for not disclosing things... Talk to anyone who has been audited and then ask yourself what is so bad about a little survey?

PS: For all the nutters find me an example of anyone having been jailed for not filling in their census.

[DayGlow]

Originally posted by Freeskier
Alright, I admit that the jail term seems a little bit ridiculous, and this seems to be the main issue. I support a mandatory random sample census... but i'll agree with you that jail is way too much for choosing to not disclose your personal information

So it should be mandatory, but if I choose not to volunteer my info, nothing should compell me to do so?

[Freeskier]

I dunno, maybe a fine?

[revelations]

Many European countries have done away with a census ENTIRELY, while some have converted to a voluntary method.

Basically, nothing really worth worrying about over here.

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by revelations

Basically, nothing really worth worrying about over here.

Greece has a mandatory census every 10 years... Look how that's working out for them:

http://rustbeltradical.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/greek-riots-2.jpg

http://www.the-gates-of-hell.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/greek-riot.jpg

http://blog.pappastax.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/greek-riots.jpg


The government used the census information to "better allocate" funds, and not be ruled by "special interest" groups. Look what happened - They spent all their money and then some on obscene social programs and now they are bankrupt.

Is that what you want for Canada? ;)

[Freeskier]

Fight the man, man...

[Antonito]

You know who else had a census? HITLER!

Fuck you're a joke

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by broken_legs



Is that what you want for Canada? ;)


That wink there is because it's a joke. ;) Maybe you guys should chill out :rofl:

[mx73someday]

Originally posted by Gainsbarre

Special interest groups already get too much attention simply because they yell louder than most, why give them even more say by stacking the deck further in their favour?


This is a symptom of representative democracy, politicians are selling a service to whoever will pay the most or cry out to the public the loudest. A perfect coerced census will not give individuals any more freedom, it just influences how politicians sell. The problem isn't that they are selling to the wrong groups, it's that they shouldn't be allowed to sell at all.


Originally posted by Gainsbarre
How many millions of dollars more do you think it'll cost to sent out 100% of households instead of 20%?

I read that it was being mailed out to 30-33% of households, not 100%. Do you have a source?

[911fever]

Why is everyone getting upset about this? The Conservative government is being more democratic and is allowing people to fill it out, voluntarily. In Vancouver census' will be returned with burnt edges and a tinge of weed smell, Calgary will have personal letters attached asking for Harper's autograph, Ontario will demand that are rights aren't infringed on by replying, and Quebec won't even fill it out.

[Nusc]

"...in this neanderthal regime..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMnMjzPGseE&feature=player_embedded#!

[DayGlow]

you know what other far-right Neanderthal regimes don't have censuses?

Norway, Sweden and Finland.

We should never follow suite with those neo-con beacons to the world.